Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Ack-Ack on December 23, 2005, 07:42:50 PM
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(http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/boomandzoom/Fig33.jpg)
-Nuff said.
ack-ack
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YEAH!
N1K2-J is tha best!
:p
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Nah....... :huh
Grumman F8F BEARCAT
(http://www.bluejacket.com/usn/images/ac/f8f_grumman_bearcat.jpg)
Was probably the best piston engine fighter of the era - if it had come into the war a year earlier and seen combat it would arguablly had been a "legend" on equal terms with the P-51, P-47, P-38, Hellcat & Wildcat.
If we are sticking to "strictly" planes that saw combat - I would have to go with it's older Brother the F6F HELLCAT.
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/navalwar/vchellca4.jpg)
It shot down more aircraft than the P-38 did in both the ETO, MTO & PTO Theaters combined.
Still, I will agree with you - the P-38 is a sleek looking bird.
:aok
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Originally posted by 1K3
YEAH!
N1K2-J is tha best!
:p
Think them are OSCAR's there IKE. :D
Shamie, Shamie. Back to the recognition books for you! :rofl
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I'll stick with my F4U. :P
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Originally posted by Jester
If we are sticking to "strictly" planes that saw combat - I would have to go with it's older Brother the F6F HELLCAT.
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/navalwar/vchellca4.jpg)
It shot down more aircraft than the P-38 did in both the ETO, MTO & PTO Theaters combined.
I must add to this that many of those aircraft were Japanese bombers (like B5N, D3A and such)
There was this ace on a Hellcat, he shot down 6 or so aircraft on 1 raid, but these were all D3A's! (which even the D3A itself can shoot down!)
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To add another thing, I don't think the term 'best aircraft' should be used, but 'most numerous' instead.
The P-47 shot down the most aircraft in Europe, but it doesn't say that the P-47 was used at the beginning, in larger numbers than P-51's and P-38's
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Whats uber about that pic isn't the plane, but the man flying it. :aok
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Originally posted by frank3
I must add to this that many of those aircraft were Japanese bombers (like B5N, D3A and such)
There was this ace on a Hellcat, he shot down 6 or so aircraft on 1 raid, but these were all D3A's! (which even the D3A itself can shoot down!)
Maybe they should have called a timeout and had them ditch the Kawanishi H6K's and H8K's and allow them to still get slaughtered in the Zeke's they flew? Or maybe they could have flown in the Hayabusa's, Tony's, Ki-45's, or the 428 N1K2J's that saw an Allied fighter and were shot down?
Your post is one of the most useless I have ever read. The Japanese and Germans didn't do something the Allies did, turn the "Top Pilots" into Trainers.
Karaya
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(http://www.paraglidingaustralia.com/_SkyShop/Microliting/TraintoSolo.jpg)
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Originally posted by frank3
To add another thing, I don't think the term 'best aircraft' should be used, but 'most numerous' instead.
The P-47 shot down the most aircraft in Europe, but it doesn't say that the P-47 was used at the beginning, in larger numbers than P-51's and P-38's
There are a number of aircraft that scored more aerial victories then the P-47 in europe, among them the P-51, Spitfire, Bf109.
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TeH aWeSoMe!!!1!111!!11
TeH sPiTfIrE iS tEh BeTtEr PlAnEz!!!!
(http://www.civilwarmall.com/bookseller/images/Spitfire.jpg)
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You all are just living in denial but one day you'll all awake from your ignorant slumber and realize the Lightning is the #1 plane ever made.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You all are just living in denial but one day you'll all awake from your ignorant slumber and realize the Lightning is the #1 plane ever made.
ack-ack
Amazing, I agree with Ack-Ack on something!
Karaya
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The Most Uber plane ever (on the losing side)
(http://www.warcry.hu/images/posters/full/1019_Fw190_Karl-HeinzKoch_12.JG5.jpg)
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Dude, was the size of those pics REALLY necessary?
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
(http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/boomandzoom/Fig33.jpg)
-Nuff said.
ack-ack
P38s killers (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lightning.html)
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Originally posted by Saxman
Dude, was the size of those pics REALLY necessary?
YEAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!:O :O :O
That's Teh Pwn!!!!
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Originally posted by Saxman
Dude, was the size of those pics REALLY necessary?
Please don't make fun of the little retarded monkeys, it's not their fault they don't know how to use the Intardnet yet.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by ghi
P38s killers (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lightning.html)
and yet they lost the war....go figure.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
and yet they lost the war....go figure.
ack-ack
Yes they LOST to numbers... Battle of Attrition that is;)
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And still the P-38 had a positive kill ratio against the Nazis in the ETO and MTO. Go figure.
ack-ack
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Uber ---( in german)=over, above,
Talking about "Uber",imop the Me109 is the best killer ever.
Germans destroyed about 120 000 aircraft , over 70 000 of them by fighters and most of them in 109s.
See up there on the list with P38s killers, Schiess shoot down 17 x P38s.
Do you know any P38 pilot that nailed 17 x Me109s ?
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Originally posted by ghi
Uber ---( in german)=over, above,
Talking about "Uber",imop the Me109 is the best killer ever.
Germans destroyed about 120 000 aircraft , over 70 000 of them by fighters and most of them in 109s.
See up there on the list with P38s killers, Schiess shoot down 17 x P38s.
Do you know any P38 pilot that nailed 17 x Me109s ?
It's a pointless question as USAAF and RAF pilots were rotated out after doing combat tours while LW pilots went on and on til they died or the end. There were many Allied pilots who never even saw the LW during their tours.
It's the same old numbers game. You can skew it anyway you want. It's an unanswerable question unless we build a time machine and put Allied pilots under the same set up as LW pilots and vice versa. You might get a better idea then, but since we don't seem to be able to do that, it's all speculation.
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Originally posted by 1K3
Yes they LOST to numbers... Battle of Attrition that is;)
LOL a loss is a loss. Shouldn't have started it if they weren't gonna finish it. Last I checked war isn't fair
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Last I checked war isn't fair
of course :)
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(http://weapons-free.masdf.com/air/usa/pic/sr71.jpg)
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Originally posted by Wolfala
(http://weapons-free.masdf.com/air/usa/pic/sr71.jpg)
TEH PWNMOBILE!!!!!!!11!11!1
they took it out of service didnt they?? its real stupid, the human race has taken a giant leap backwards after getting rid of the concorde and all the great cold war speed machines :(
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Think NASA may still be flying a couple 71s.
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Best WWII (saw action) combat AC award goes to the Me262.
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Originally posted by Tilt
Best WWII (saw action) combat AC award goes to the Me262.
nah, easily the fairey battle :D
(http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/2404L.jpg)
General characteristics
Crew: three
Length: 12.85 m (42 ft 2 in ft)
Wingspan: 16.46 m (54 ft)
Height: 4.72 m (15 ft 6 in)
Wing area: m² ( ft²)
Empty: 3,015 kg (6,647 lb)
Loaded: 4,895 kg (10,792 lb)
Maximum takeoff: kg ( lb)
Powerplant: 1x Rolls Royce Merlin II 12-cylinder Vee-type, 770 kW (1,030 hp)
[edit]
Performance
Maximum speed: 414 km/h at 4,572 m ( 257 mph at 15,000 ft)
Range: 1,609 km (1,000 miles)
Service ceiling: 7,600 m (25,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 280 m/min (920 ft/min)
[edit]
Armament
1x .303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine gun in starboard wing
1x .303 in (7.7 mm) Vickers K machine gun in rear cabin
4 x 250 lb (110 kg) bombs internal
500 lb ( kg) bombs external
muhahahaha, imagine the whines of the lgays when a battle pwns em all over the place muhahahaha
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(http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/sih01a/sih01a_kansi.jpg)
Simple truth ;)
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It's the same old numbers game. You can skew it anyway you want. It's an unanswerable question unless we build a time machine and put Allied pilots under the same set up as LW pilots and vice versa. You might get a better idea then, but since we don't seem to be able to do that, it's all speculation.
It's not unanswerable. Facts are the Luftwaffe was grossly outnumbered and was also made up primarily of very poorly trained pilots.
While those pilots who recieved the pre-war standard training died at the same steady rate throughout the war, the hastily trained replacement pilots bore the brunt of the numerically superior allied onslaught.
The allies benefited from the Luftwaffe's mistakes in the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe made the mistake of attacking with almost numerical parity in single engined fighters against an enemy with far superior logistical system, production capacity, and ability to concetrate it's forces at the tip of the spear. The allies horded their forces until they built up overwhelming numerical superiority and the range to deny the enemy sanctuary.
Numbers of flying hours in training:
http://img124.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=90f04_flying_hours.jpg
Numbers of Training hours of all types:
http://img134.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=e3f23_Training_hours.jpg
From the size of the forces opposing the 8th USAAF it is plain to see that the Luftwaffe was never able to mount an effective defense against the allies once their weight of numbers was brought to bear. The Luftwaffe was simply too small a force. The report concludes that the 8th USAAF fighters outnumbered their opponents in 1944 an average of 8 : 1 in the air at the tip of the Spear. Allied escort fighters were typically able to attack with positional advantage when the Luftwaffe units were climbing up to intercept the bombers or attack immediately following their attack on the bomber formations before the Luftwaffe fighters could reorganize. Oscar Boesch was shot down several times by USAAF escort fighters. Each time the allied fighter got on his tail during his attack on the bombers.
http://img120.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=676f8_size_of_opposing_forces.jpg
However this increase in fighter opposition did come at price for the allies. They suffered a 340% increase in losses when compared to operations in 1943. Comparing these loss rates with the numbers of training hours, it is easy to see the post war German after action reviews were correct in their assesment of the hastily trained wartime pilots bearing the brunt of the conflict. Those pilots benefiting from the pre-war training regime died at almost the same steady rate throughout the war. With such a poorly trained force however, the loss of even a few experienced formation leaders was catastrophic.
http://img121.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=cb883_loss_rates.jpg
The range of 8th USAAF escort fighters:
(http://img137.potato.com/loc15/th_b9da6_Escrot_fighter_range.jpg) (http://img137.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc15&image=b9da6_Escrot_fighter_range.jpg)
If you can draw any performance conclusions from this information it would have to be that the Luftwaffe would have needed much more than fighter performance that was equal or traditionally advantaged to overcome the numerical and experience disadvantages in the air. They would have required fighter performance that was vastly superior to prevail as they needed to have pilots gain experience and win in the combat at hand. As it was only the small percentage of trained pilots could hope to have any chance of success.
All the best,
Crumpp
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Not my point Crumpp.
It's the notion that so and so had 300 kills for the LW and no Allied pilot came close so the LW pilots must have been better.
No Allied pilot flew the sorties etc to even have a shot at that due to the rotation policies of Allied air forces that the LW couldn't do because of the numbers they were facing.
So out of that mess there would have to be some that beat the odds and survived to rack up all those kills.
Reverse the situation and put the pilots of any country in those circumstances and you'd have some that would somehow survive all those sorties with lots of kills.
Thankfully Allied pilots had that rotation policy. I can't imagine the strain the LW drivers were feeling after a time, but I know if you look at the photos of some of the Experten, you can see the strain on thier faces. They look beaten up from the constant ops, which was to be expected.
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It's the notion that so and so had 300 kills for the LW and no Allied pilot came close so the LW pilots must have been better.
I agree.
The vast majority of Luftwaffe pilots were very poorly trained. They were pretty much cannon fodder for the much more experienced allied flyers. It is highly unlikely you will be able to fly your aircraft to the edge of the envelope in combat when your situational awareness is not developed to see the enemy and your flying skills make normal flying maneuvers a challenge.
There are several allied aces that had better sortie to kill ratios than many high scoring Luftwaffe experten. In fact Eric Hartmanns ratio is rather average. The number of times he fought in the air though was not.
All the best,
Crumpp
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Just as a sidenote. I was looking at Caldwell's photo history of JG26 and there were a number of group photos from 43. In the captions he'd include KIA, POW, WIA, KIFA etc.
It was amazing the attrition rate of those guys. I think there was one where 7 of the 10 in the photo were KIA or KIFA. Just about every photo had at least half KIA. That's a heckuva stat to face every day and I have to believe they noticed the empty chairs and the new faces.
I went back to some of my group photos from 41 and 91 Squadron in 43 and couldn't find a ratio even close.
In one photo with 28 ID'd pilots in it, I could name 2 KIAs and 8 POWs. But again, these guys rotated out after a set amount of combat hours.
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True.
The decline in German Fighter pilot training began in the fall of 1942:
http://img124.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=90f04_flying_hours.jpg
Here is more on JG26's casualties. Goto "Combat claims and Casualties":
http://jg26.vze.com/
Including the entire casualty list for the Geschwader.
All the best,
Crumpp
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Originally posted by BlauK
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/sih01a/sih01a_kansi.jpg)
Simple truth ;)
Yeah baby yeah! :D
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Maybe they should have called a timeout and had them ditch the Kawanishi H6K's and H8K's and allow them to still get slaughtered in the Zeke's they flew? Or maybe they could have flown in the Hayabusa's, Tony's, Ki-45's, or the 428 N1K2J's that saw an Allied fighter and were shot down?
Your post is one of the most useless I have ever read. The Japanese and Germans didn't do something the Allies did, turn the "Top Pilots" into Trainers.
Karaya
You can't posibly say the number of kills made an aircraft the best?
What I am saying is that a certain aircraft could score the most kills by placing it in the right time, amount and place.
The P-51 was in many ways better than the P-47 (though not all) but it scored less kills. Why? Because the P-47 was put into action much earlier, in greater numbers.
There's no such thing as 'the best plane'
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Originally posted by frank3
The P-51 was in many ways better than the P-47 (though not all) but it scored less kills. Why? Because the P-47 was put into action much earlier, in greater numbers.
The stats I've seen from America's Hundred Thousand show the P-51 being at 4950 claimed in europe vs. 3082 for the P-47. What source are you looking at?
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The stats I've seen from America's Hundred Thousand show the P-51 being at 4950 claimed in europe vs. 3082 for the P-47.
Claims in and of themselves are meaningless.
Both of those numbers seem rather excessive. I would imagine they are aircraft of all types claimed destroyed both on the ground and in the air.
Here is the total USAAF claims in the ETO:
(http://img126.potato.com/loc280/th_cfd2f_enemy_aircraft_claimed.jpg) (http://img126.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc280&image=cfd2f_enemy_aircraft_claimed.jpg)
All the best,
Crumpp
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(http://www.sun-inet.or.jp/~ja2tko/image.b29.museum/b29.1.hikoucyuu.jpg)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOK!!!!
Well y'all did say "Uber plane" and not "Uber fighter" :)
13 minutes to 15k, 31.8k service ceiling, 358mph @ 25k, 12x.50 on the -29A + 20mm, 10 tons of ord.... and NOOOOOOKS!!!!!11!11!111
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Originally posted by BlauK
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/sih01a/sih01a_kansi.jpg)
Simple truth ;)
I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT! It was only a matter of time when speaking of an "Uber Plane" than some Finn was going to show up with a picture of a freaking BUFFALO! :rolleyes:
Just surprised it wasn't Kantori that posted first! He is probably in the sauna somewhere wasted on Vodka! :rofl
Guys! :aok
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Well if and whenever the überplane-numbergame is played, its the Brewster that plays the best hand.
Please dont start the war if your not going to finish it HAHAHAHA LOL LOL LOL :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
EDIT: no offence intended :D
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"The vast majority of Luftwaffe pilots were very poorly trained. They were pretty much cannon fodder for the much more experienced allied flyers."
This statement is totally inacurate for the first 2 years of the war..german had all the experienced flyers at first from what ive read..they were beat by attrition and allies gaining experience....how many german aces were there having ridiculous ridiculous amount of kills? if u were to say a ratio of german pilots to the ratio of allied pilots having experience maybe..lotta variables... Heck the germans called the brits formations the "row of idiots" due to their tactics..time changed all that.
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This statement is totally inacurate for the first 2 years of the war
The statement was not made about the first two years of the war. The training hours and flying hours are posted. It was in answer to Guppy's statement about the ratio's being unanswerable. Simply examine the kill to sortie ratios.
Heck the germans called the brits formations the "row of idiots" due to their tactics..time changed all that.
True. All airforces soon adopted the same section tactics the Germans developed in Spain.
german had all the experienced flyers at first from what ive read..they were beat by attrition and allies gaining experience....how many german aces were there having ridiculous ridiculous amount of kills?
The Germans did not rotate their personnel. A German pilot flew until the war ended, he was too severly wounded to fly anymore, or he was killed.
Like many German pilots Oscar Boesch flew from the day the war started until the day it ended. Like the vast majority of German pilots he got only a handful of kills, 13 confirmed. There are many factors that go into making an "experten" or an "ace". The frequency one encounters the enemy is one big factor. The German pilots lived in a "target rich" enviroment. Almost every time they flew, they saw enemy aircraft. Allied pilots, due to their vast numerical superiority, could go a whole tour with only a few encounters with the enemy.
If you examine the numbers of encounters with the enemy to the number of kills, the Luftwaffe "Experten" were far from the "superpilots" of popular myth. They simply had far more chances to shoot down enemy aircraft. With the exception of a few shining stars, most of them have an average kill to sortie ratio with several allied aces surpassing them.
if u were to say a ratio of german pilots to the ratio of allied pilots having experience maybe..lotta variables...
Just like most airforces, the "Experten" form about 1 percent of the total German fighter pilot force.
The 8th USAAF Fighter Groups had a saying, "Fly five and stay alive." It took between 5-6 encounters with the enemy for a pilot to develop his Situational Awareness. If a poorly trained German Pilot could survive long enough to develop his SA, his chances of surviving the war went up astronomically. Almost 98 percent of the German fighter pilots Killed in Action, were killed before the completion of their first few missions.
The Luftwaffe in 1944 was made of a very small core of very experienced pilots surrounded by scores of poorly trained amatuers.
The vast majority of German pilots encountered by allied pilots were these poorly trained cannon fodder in the last years of the war.
Guppy35 says:
I can't imagine the strain the LW drivers were feeling after a time, but I know if you look at the photos of some of the Experten, you can see the strain on thier faces. They look beaten up from the constant ops, which was to be expected.
Which is absolutely true.
All the best,
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Pooface
TeH aWeSoMe!!!1!111!!11
TeH sPiTfIrE iS tEh BeTtEr PlAnEz!!!!
(http://www.civilwarmall.com/bookseller/images/Spitfire.jpg)
I dont feel like doing a search right now, but someone posted in this forum an account of when a spitfire pilot was going to explain why his spit was better than a P38 to a squadron. He challenged the best pilot from the 38 squadron to a 1 on 1 fight and in the end the P38 Pilot won.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
I dont feel like doing a search right now, but someone posted in this forum an account of when a spitfire pilot was going to explain why his spit was better than a P38 to a squadron. He challenged the best pilot from the 38 squadron to a 1 on 1 fight and in the end the P38 Pilot won.
Just search "John Lowell". We've debated that fight endlessly :)
Best guess based on the innacuracies in the story is Lowell, flying a 38J-25 took on an RAF Wing Commander, probably Teddy Donaldson (who'd been out of combat since just after the B of B) in a Spitfire XIV.
Lowell was at his best, Donaldson was not. Donaldson probably made the same mistake most Spit drivers did when they moved on to the XIV, he tried to fly it like a Merlin Spit. It just doesn't work that way. Lowell ate him up.
But again. Search John Lowell. Lots of strong opinions about him and that fight in the past in this forum.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
I dont feel like doing a search right now, but someone posted in this forum an account of when a spitfire pilot was going to explain why his spit was better than a P38 to a squadron. He challenged the best pilot from the 38 squadron to a 1 on 1 fight and in the end the P38 Pilot won.
There are also the stories about the same P-38 pilot scaring the piss out of Galand and making him run home with his tail tucked between his legs and yelping like a puppy stuck outside on a cold night.
ack-ack
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This thread neeeds a SOLID support/facts on why P-38 is *The Most Uber Plane Ever*
i'll try...
* P-38 is the most successful aerial "Zerstörer" series of WWII
* P-38 is The Jack of All Trades.
* P-38 is the F/A-18 fighter bomber of its time in WWII
* P-38 served in Europe, Pacific, and Mediterranean theaters with success (HUGE SUCCESS in PACIFIC)
* P-38 has a long list of resumes (short example... responsible for tipping the balance of power between the Army Air Corps and the Japanese Army AF in the pacific in 1942)
* P-38: Shortest take-off of any USAAF/USAAC fighter
* P-38 benefits from NO TORQUE due to counter-rotating engines
* P-38 Fowler flaps on P-38G/H/J/L gives P-38s greater wing area, can be used as combat flaps to out-turn opponents
* P-38 Nose mounted guns are deadly, no converging required
* P-38 has good slow/medium speed characteristics
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* Twin engines made it more survivable for flying over seemingly endless ocean
* First truely long range fighter for the US
* Richard Bong was America’s all-time leading fighter ace
*It's just downright sexy
(http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/98113.jpg)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
There are also the stories about the same P-38 pilot scaring the piss out of Galand and making him run home with his tail tucked between his legs and yelping like a puppy stuck outside on a cold night.
ack-ack
Where did you read that ? in some cartoons capitalist war propaganda ?
Sir , better change your signature : " Some pilots are good. some pilots are great but the best of all flew the Me109":D
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Originally posted by Raptor01
* Twin engines made it more survivable for flying over seemingly endless ocean
* First truely long range fighter for the US
*It's just downright sexy
(http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/98113.jpg)
lol i forgot about that:p
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
(http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/boomandzoom/Fig33.jpg)
-Nuff said.
ack-ack
It's obvious to me from the picture that the heroic Japanese pilots have just taken off from their field against vastly superior numbers and are in the process of being "vulched" and/or "CHerry Picked"!;)
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Originally posted by ghi
Where did you read that ? in some cartoons capitalist war propaganda ?
Sir , better change your signature : " Some pilots are good. some pilots are great but the best of all flew the Me109":D
The story involves John Lowell in a late model 38, encountering Galland in a D9. Supposadly Galland met Lowell postwar and acknowledged it, heard by other old fighter pilots at the same gathering of aces.
Problems with the story:
-D9 didn't show up until a while after the 364th FG(Lowells unit) had transitioned to P51s.
-Did Galland fly D9s?
General consensus is that the encounter did not happen the way the story is told.
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General consensus is that the encounter did not happen the way the story is told.
Yep. The general consensus is that Lowell was very drunk and Galland was being a polite guest.
All the best,
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Raptor01
* Twin engines made it more survivable for flying over seemingly endless ocean
* First truely long range fighter for the US
* Richard Bong was America’s all-time leading fighter ace
*It's just downright sexy
(http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/98113.jpg)
BMW------------------- powered most FWs,
DB/Mercedes -------powered the Me109s.
Same watermelon today , go to dealer take a BMW/ Mercedes for a test ride than take a GM/Ford and feel the diference. Some buid quality others quantity, no wonder the only one still making profit out of 3 huge North American car maker, is Crysler maybe cuz Mercedes bought it.
Germans had the jet engine almost ready by the time when british scientist were trying to discover the hot water and fuel injection, cuz the spits"s engines equpied with carburators stoped in mid fight,
On the other side of Atlantic, the americans ussed compresed carburators, also were not able to make a reliable sincronized cannon shooting through the prop without lossing the rate of fire.
Maybe they build the "Uber Sexy P38s" with 2 engines just cuz were not able to find a techincal solution for the gunz to fire through the prop:D
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Originally posted by ghi
Germans had the jet engine almost ready by the time when british scientist were trying to discover the hot water and fuel injection
Guess all their cleverness was just not enough.
- oldman
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Guess all their cleverness was just not enough.
Not with odds like these:
http://img120.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=676f8_size_of_opposing_forces.jpg
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Maybe they build the "Uber Sexy P38s" with 2 engines just cuz were not able to find a techincal solution for the gunz to fire through the prop
Piston engine technology was pretty much the same all over. The only real advancement was the further development of the sleeve valve:
http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/aircraft/tempest/sabre/
The Germans continued their trends in engine development they began in 1918. In fact most nations simply continued down their estabilished pre-war paths.
All the best,
Crumpp
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Germans had the jet engine almost ready by the time when british scientist were trying to discover the hot water and fuel injection, cuz the spits"s engines equpied with carburators stoped in mid fight
Your education is lacking.
The Brits had their jet a/c operational before the Germans.
The Spit had injection carbs > no engine stoppage.
Tell me where would the 109 be if there was no British engine to install in the prototype?
Fyi, German guns lost RoF when firing through the prop.
Germans were incapable of making a twin engine fighter > Me110/210/410
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Fyi, German guns lost RoF when firing through the prop.
All synchronized weapons lost ROF.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Germans were incapable of making a twin engine fighter > Me110/210/410
YOU IS WRONG!
the germs made excelent twin engine fighters
Bf 110 is the best Luftwaffe fighter in AH!
110 can out turn 109s and 190s by using its flaps
110 guns can *pop* you out of the sky with hi pulse cannons
:D
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Not with odds like these:
http://img120.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=676f8_size_of_opposing_forces.jpg
Yus. You'd think they might have looked at a map before starting the war.
- oldman
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Originally posted by 1K3
YOU IS WRONG!
the germs made excelent twin engine fighters
Bf 110 is the best Luftwaffe fighter in AH!
110 can out turn 109s and 190s by using its flaps
110 guns can *pop* you out of the sky with hi pulse cannons
:D
The Me-110 was a turkey from the Battle of Britain on. They were routinely swept from the skies when single engine RAF fighters were present. The only time the ME-110 came into it's own was as a nightfighter over Germany and during the first part of the American Day Bomber Offensive when there were no escort fighters. As soon as the P-51 & P-47 started showing up the days of the 110 were again numbered.
As I am sure you have observed the Worlds of Armed Aerial Combat in AH and and WW2 really don't have much in common.
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Originally posted by 1K3
Yes they LOST to numbers... Battle of Attrition that is;)
They lost to numbers
They lost due to bad leadership
They lost to better easer to use and in greater quantitys of equipment
They lost to poor planing
They lost due to little to no training of replacment pilots
They lost to poor design I:E: 109s 15mins of flight time over England in the BOB Tiger tanks hard to build and maintain etc etc.
And last but most important they lost because Hitler was a stark raving lunitic gone mad with power and hate.
Axis pilots were very skilled and posted huge kill stats. But they allso posted many many of thoes kills when the were the hoard sweeping the skys of out matched and out numbered pilots over Poland France Britton Russia etc etc.
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They lost to better easer to use and in greater quantitys of equipment
The German single lever control systems were praised by all the allies for their ease of control. The Germans excelled at simplifying a pilots workload in combat.
They lost to poor design
German designs concentrated on performance with a common design philosophy of the smallest airplane with the most powerful engine available. The was the design philosophy of most of the major combatants in WWII.
The German designs remained competative against their contemprary opponents throughout the war. We can see this in our restoration of both axis and allied fighter designs.
I:E: 109s 15mins of flight time over England in the BOB
Overcoming range limitations while maintaining acceptable performance was an engineering problem faced by all combatants. The United States was pretty much the only ones to achieve this goal. They also built the largest fighter aircraft of any combatant.
As you point out with your Tiger tank analogy, the Germans biggest engineering fault was overengineering their designs. This makes many of their individual designs a great piece of equipment to accomplish it's design purpose.
This trait also worked against them in the electronic warfare arena for the both the U-Boats and the Nightfighters.
But they allso posted many many of thoes kills when the were the hoard sweeping the skys of out matched and out numbered pilots over Poland France Britton Russia etc etc.
Not correct either. The Kill ratios of the majority of the "Experten" stayed steady as long as they fought.
The worlds leading ace did not even enter combat until 1942.
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-ErichHartmann.html
Everything else you posted is correct.
All the best,
Crumpp
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Originally posted by 1K3
This thread neeeds a SOLID support/facts on why P-38 is *The Most Uber Plane Ever*
i'll try...
* P-38 is the most successful aerial "Zerstörer" series of WWII
* P-38 is The Jack of All Trades.
* P-38 is the F/A-18 fighter bomber of its time in WWII
* P-38 served in Europe, Pacific, and Mediterranean theaters with success (HUGE SUCCESS in PACIFIC)
* P-38 has a long list of resumes (short example... responsible for tipping the balance of power between the Army Air Corps and the Japanese Army AF in the pacific in 1942)
* P-38: Shortest take-off of any USAAF/USAAC fighter
* P-38 benefits from NO TORQUE due to counter-rotating engines
* P-38 Fowler flaps on P-38G/H/J/L gives P-38s greater wing area, can be used as combat flaps to out-turn opponents
* P-38 Nose mounted guns are deadly, no converging required
* P-38 has good slow/medium speed characteristics
Why does this thread need solid support that the P-38 is the uberest plane ever made? I said it is so therefore let it be written.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by ghi
Where did you read that ? in some cartoons capitalist war propaganda ?
Sir , better change your signature : " Some pilots are good. some pilots are great but the best of all flew the Me109":D
Why would I change it such a misleading statement like yours? It is a fact that you cannot dispute that the two top US aces flew the P-38. And the Bf109 like all the other LW planes were just mere flying drones for the Allied pilots to shoot down at will.
ack-ack
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Why do yuo have such a strong campaign for your belowed p-38? You want everyone to recognize it as the most überplane ever? You want to claim yourself as the überdweeb who flies only the best plane to compensate the lacking .............. (fill in a word of choice) ;)
Or are you just trolling around :)
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Originally posted by BlauK
Why do yuo have such a strong campaign for your belowed p-38? You want everyone to recognize it as the most überplane ever? You want to claim yourself as the überdweeb who flies only the best plane to compensate the lacking .............. (fill in a word of choice) ;)
Or are you just trolling around :)
You dare doubt the Uberness of the P-38? Heretic.
ack-ack
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trolling it is!
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Plane that killed lots o zeros and in my mind one of the best turnfighters around
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g30000/g37932.jpg)
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Why do luftwaffe lovers become so itched about it when they hear about p38's
The freaks made even a website about who shot the most lightnings down.
Is this just insecureness ??
:D
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It's because they are trying to deny what everyone with sense of intelligence already knows. The P-38 is super-uber.
ack-ack