Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: skiz on December 26, 2005, 06:46:06 AM
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Well i've been wondering lately that my idea that all planes were capable of being competitive in realife, is well not true at all. this is not a troll but i always thought that planes like the p47 should have a chance, specifically using thier anecdotal strengths like the p47's dive i hear so much about. but i'm wondering that maybe just maybe in real life, some planes were just uber, just outperformed all other planes. well what do the experts say?
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My impression is that lots of folks are excpecting their favorite plane to be exactly like every other person's favorite plane so that when they for example get in a turn fight on the deck with a Spitfire that their P47 should be able to turn with it etc.
Each had thier strength's and weaknesses. Some were designed for high alt combat, which doesn't happen much in AH since's it's a TAC air war. Things like long range become less of an issue in AH so those that could go further aren't really able to take advantage of their long legs over the shorter range stuff.
Some planes are just more difficult to fly too.
So it leaves you with the choice of taking one of the good performing easier rides like the Spits, LAs etc and doing your thing.
OR! You pick a bird and learn to fly it to it's strengths. There are guys out there flying Jugs that do some wonderous things in them. There are guys flying 109s doing the same thing. Pick your plane and there is probably somone in AH who can fly it like no other. There have been some P40 drivers that really know how to work those too. It goes on and on.
But they put the time into finding those strengths. It means taking thier lumps for a while while they get there too though so if you are one to get caught up in scores and K/Ds it can be a bit discouraging at first.
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It's the pilot not the plane. Germans had better planes, but worse pilots. Just kidding, but seriously it's the pilot, not the plane.
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disagree... 2 planes merge, one plane is turned 180 degrees and closed to within 400d of the other plane before the other plane has even gotten 100 degrees and slightly banked. That is the plane, not the pilot.
If an no-talent LA7 can blast into a horde and cherry pick 8 planes on the way through and keep going at mach 7.5, killing 8 seasoned but otherwise engaged pilot, it's the plane not the pilot. Otherwise the plane would not have been in, out, and gone in the blink of an eye.
All planes have a skill amplification multiplier. No-talent dweebs can still get kills in spitfires, it has a multiplier of 4x (maybe 5x, depending on the version). Some planes have decimals instead of whole numbers, certain LW planes have 0.5x multiplier (109g6) some have 0.25 (ta152).
So given any two pilots that both are equal "n" in skill, then (n x planeskillmultiplier ) = the abilities of that pilot at any given moment.
A lot of people say "it's not the plane, it's the pilot" -- that's only true in real life. In AH the plane is half the equation, and that's a fact.
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What Guppy said!
Just wait until the TOD comes. Most things happen at 20K+ in the bombing campaign, and no Lalas, and even Spits.
Well depends what TOD will bring - how many scenarios will be around and so on. There will some day be the Eastern front, the BoB the Pacific and so on.....
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Originally posted by Krusty
If an no-talent LA7 can blast into a horde and cherry pick 8 planes on the way through and keep going at mach 7.5, killing 8 seasoned but otherwise engaged pilot, it's the plane not the pilot. Otherwise the plane would not have been in, out, and gone in the blink of an eye.
So given any two pilots that both are equal "n" in skill, then (n x planeskillmultiplier ) = the abilities of that pilot at any given moment.
A lot of people say "it's not the plane, it's the pilot" -- that's only true in real life. In AH the plane is half the equation, and that's a fact.
You contradict yourself in the first statement. Cherry picking is a direct result of the pilot. Whether, he/she is bottomfeeding off of someone else's fight or working the perimeter and working his/her way to the middle, that again is the result of the pilot.
What cracks me up is the fact I haven't met a foe in the MA setting that I HAVEN'T outturned while flying the La7. I outturn Spit1's, Niki's, 109's, 47's, 51, etc in an La7. The La7 while a "good bnz'er" IS One of the Best Turnfighters this game has. It is up to the "occupant" to fly it as such, not the plane.
My squaddies laugh like hyena's when I roll one, they've seen what I am capable of in it. Some of them have even relaxed while the La7 is still airborne at 100mph with no flaps or gear down, I have beat the piss out of it in game, and it still is a fun ride. The most capable La7 I have come across in game was SECOmust. 10 minutes of us picking off ailerons, flaps and rudders off. he got me, and crashed without any of the above as well, and that was almost 2 years ago.
Karaya
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It's more of a situational thing.
In AH you can dive from 20k to deck and still the enemy plane will follow you through all hell - which was not the case in real life. Planes had orders. They had wingmen and team members to look after. You weren't allowed to just chase down one plane all the way to anywhere he may lead you.
Also, we fly pretty comfortably through speeds over 400mph in the game, but from what I've read 400~500mph in a WW2 prop plane wasn't exactly a walk in the park for the pilot. The sensation of speed both the eyes and the body feels becomes greater, the controls get heavier and unresponding, the plane shakes, and the limits and recommendations the manufacturers and trainers told you start ringing in your mind. The fear factor alons has often paniced the pilot to his crashing death, when a calm response might have pulled him out of a speedy dive.
Put that together and the conclusion one would get, is a small dive advantage, superior high-speed handling, and a certain span of altitude might be enough to discourage an enemy pilot behind you to chase you down in a dive - but not so in AH.
In AH, as long as we know we have a faster plane at deck, we just go straight down after anyone who's diving. Who cares if I die in the process? I'll just up another plane.
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You could also argue that those seasoned pilots should have had the ability to see that lala coming and avoid him, rather then being target fixated and getting killed.
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Masherbrum: I feel confident that I will outturn your La7 in any Spit.
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Originally posted by Angus
Masherbrum: I feel confident that I will outturn your La7 in any Spit.
Cool. In the DA probably, in the MA environment, doubt it.
Karaya
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Well I think it's clear that some planes were better then others in real life. There is a reason why the RAF replaced it's Spitfire Mk I's with Mk II's, and those with Mk V's, and those with Mk IX's etc. Airplanes got faster, their service ceilings increased, range increased, ordanance increased, etc. throughout the war.
If you try to compare them all on a level playing field, only a few of the late war monsters will stand out, and the rest will seem like total wastes of resources. Why did the RAF build anything else when the had Tempests? Why did the Russians build so many fighters that weren't LA-7s? Rome wasn't built in a day, and these planes weren't designed from scratch - they were the result of years of wartime development and experience. However, most of WWII was fought before 1945. In fact, half of it was fought before 1942. ;)
If you look at any of the fighters in their historical context, they make a lot more sense. Take the P-47 you mentioned. The earliest model we have is a D-11, it would have seen service in early 1944 flying escort missions for 8th Air Force bombers. This would have meant flying at 20-30,000ft and fighting Bf109G-6's, Bf110G's, and Fw190A's. In this environment, the P-47D is a very comepetetive fighter. But when you start flying it at 10,000ft and below, against the best 1945 had to offer, it seems a little weak.
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Masherbrum: Please explain. The flight model is the same in the DA as in the MA. If you want to take a turn test, there is also the TA, Still the same flight model.
In the MA, many newbies fly the Spitfire. I've outmaneuvered them in almost everything in the planeset, - it still doesn't say anything.
When do you fly online?
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Originally posted by Angus
Masherbrum: Please explain. The flight model is the same in the DA as in the MA. If you want to take a turn test, there is also the TA, Still the same flight model.
In the MA, many newbies fly the Spitfire. I've outmaneuvered them in almost everything in the planeset, - it still doesn't say anything.
When do you fly online?
The environment of both Arena's are pole apart. You have much more to be cautious of in the MA. Great, you're outturning my La7 in yer Spit, now, there is a dot that comes into Icon range. That lone dot changes everything.
BTW, I wouldn't make these claims if I didn't do it regularly. The Spit 1 is the slowest and tightest turner of the lot of Spits, IMO.
Karaya
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over the last year or so i have found that its more a luck+ conection +plane thing than it used to be.. maybe its the increase number of players. the complete low level combat, I dont know, but somthing has changed( for the worse) since AH2.. it just dont feel right..
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And what has the icon range to do with turning?
Spit I turns best, that we know (Well at 30K not any more), then the Mk V, then the VIII, IX and XVI, then the XIV.
But the LA turns with none of them if it enters a turn, - that is if the pilots are equal. Not a sustained turn,- except if there is a loading difference.
Of course if the setup is such (E for example) you may be able to cut a turn, but you won't hang with them spits if the pilot knows what he is doing.
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Spit 16 is overmodeled!!!!
:p
------------------------------------>>>>>>> ....running away.....
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Originally posted by Angus
And what has the icon range to do with turning?
Spit I turns best, that we know (Well at 30K not any more), then the Mk V, then the VIII, IX and XVI, then the XIV.
But the LA turns with none of them if it enters a turn, - that is if the pilots are equal. Not a sustained turn,- except if there is a loading difference.
Of course if the setup is such (E for example) you may be able to cut a turn, but you won't hang with them spits if the pilot knows what he is doing.
Knowing a con can jump in at any given moment in the MA, changes everything. I've noticed I get alot of kills now due to the other person's cockiness. I enjoy these kills, as I then land the other dot as well.
Here, anyone can ask OddCAF (my squaddie) for any proof of this occurrence, if in question. I enjoy turnfighting most of all in this game. A few tours ago, Odd and I rolled Ta-152's. Another squaddie who doesn't listen ended up with 3 cons on him. Odd got one, I got one. I then was turning with an La7 OTD. We had made 3 complete turns, I was losing E, but he was not gaining ground on me. As we were to start the 4th, the LA7 ran home. Odd witnessed this, as did the other squaddie (PatchCAF).
Another reason why I turn good in an La7 is an uncanny ability to know what move will be coming next from the con. It isn't guessing as I will often call out their options on Squad vox, or range vox.
I CAN sustain turn with a Spit. I will gain the E back faster as I DO NOT flat turn. There is rarely a time for a flat turn.
I know my abilities, if you don't believe me, fine. If you do, fine. I've been a Rook for 3+ years and have had MANY witnesses to these occurrences.
I don't know if you are one of many who discount the La7's abilities or not? The plane should be perked. If only people realized it's awesome turning ability more, the MA would be more fun.
Karaya
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Well, if you in a La7, start turnfighting with say a Spit XVI pilot on the deck, you better have a buddy come and help you,- after 2 circles and hanging on the stall, you're dead....