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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Morpheus on December 27, 2005, 03:10:05 PM

Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Morpheus on December 27, 2005, 03:10:05 PM
Very simple question.

Are the ballistics of bullets effected by altitude and atmospheric conditions in game?

I seem to remember HT responding to this question or one like it, but that was well over a year ago iirc. And I cannot remember his answer or find the thread.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Aubrey on December 27, 2005, 04:06:13 PM
edited cause I am stupid
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Pooface on December 27, 2005, 04:14:00 PM
good question. i was also wondering whether or not direction of the enemy added hitting power, you know, if he's coming at you or going away, do the bullets do more damage if he's headed at ya?
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Mugzeee on December 27, 2005, 04:33:26 PM
altitude and atmospheric conditions ?
Oh god...please tell me im not going to have to start wearing an Oxygen mask to play AH2. :noid
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Morpheus on December 27, 2005, 04:46:22 PM
That is not what I was refering to Mugz.

Effects of altitude and atmospheric conditions on aerodynamic drag go hand in hand. Ballistics at sea level will not be the same as ballistics at 10,000 feet.

What I was asking... Is this modeled in the game.

Btw, Notice I did not mention anything about pilots vs altitude vs O2 here. Thanks.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Stang on December 27, 2005, 04:57:18 PM
I think they are Morph, the uber buff .50 cal can hit almost at 2,000 yards up at 30k.  Less wind resistance to the round = greater range applies I think, or at least seems to.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Morpheus on December 27, 2005, 05:03:15 PM
I sapose it would be easy to test. Though it would be a crude test. Fire at a given distance, say 1000 yards at 30k, 20k, 10k, Sea Level and then compare the targets to see if they are different. Still, a crude test.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Stang on December 27, 2005, 05:07:33 PM
Or find out max range at sea level of a round and set the target just beyond that.  Go up to 10/20/30k and see if the round makes it to the target.  Keep moving the target out to see how much range is added.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: wetrat on December 27, 2005, 05:16:33 PM
Or you can save your time and hope hitech answers you :aok
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: moot on December 27, 2005, 06:36:04 PM
did you just say hold your breath?
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Mugzeee on December 27, 2005, 06:53:23 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
That is not what I was refering to Mugz.

Effects of altitude and atmospheric conditions on aerodynamic drag go hand in hand. Ballistics at sea level will not be the same as ballistics at 10,000 feet.

What I was asking... Is this modeled in the game.

Btw, Notice I did not mention anything about pilots vs altitude vs O2 here. Thanks.

No kidding? LOL.
I know what you were saying Murph.
I was trying to be funny.
Maybe a good dose of cO2 is in order? :D
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Masherbrum on December 27, 2005, 07:03:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by wetrat
Or you can save your time and hope hitech answers you :aok


:O

Karaya
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: ghi on December 27, 2005, 07:18:14 PM
The airliners are flying at 30k+, cuz the thin air creates less drag, less power/fuel is needed.
 Same with a bulet/projectile flying through thin air, should have better balistic, cuz of less drag/friction.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Morpheus on December 27, 2005, 07:20:48 PM
You Missed my question Ghi.

Unless you're not addressing my question at all.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: daddog on December 27, 2005, 07:23:54 PM
I don’t think so Morph. I seem to recall someone asking Pyro/Hitech this at the last con and they said no, but I could be wrong.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: hubsonfire on December 27, 2005, 07:43:03 PM
It's a known fact that airliners are altmonkeys because they can't furball for ****. It has nothing to do with air density, drag, or fuel efficiency. Read a book sometime.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Stang on December 27, 2005, 07:55:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
Read a book sometime.
You first.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: wetrat on December 27, 2005, 09:16:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by moot
did you just say hold your breath?
Slightly different wording, but yes :p
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: hitech on December 28, 2005, 09:39:48 AM
Yes ,alt effects are implemented.

HiTech
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: storch on December 28, 2005, 09:42:54 AM
this is not a ballistics question but if the modelling is in place then why do the cannon on the F4U-1C not freeze up and not fire above 10k?
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Morpheus on December 28, 2005, 09:47:03 AM
thnx HT.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Krusty on December 28, 2005, 11:17:23 AM
Does air pressure drop off linearly? Is it 1/3 as dense at 30k as it is at 10k?

How does that affect bullets? So they go further. How much further? At what distance will they land on cross-hair if you have convergence set to "n". (i.e. n + 150 yds, etc)
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Morpheus on December 28, 2005, 12:08:17 PM
A pretty straight forward table B-pres vs Alt.

http://www.sablesys.com/baro-altitude.html
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: MOSQ on December 28, 2005, 07:46:51 PM
Morph,

A few years ago I tested all the weapons at Sea Level, 10K, 20k, and 30K. There are very significant differences in trajectory between sea level and 20 K.

At 30K even the 30MM LW potato cannon can hit a buff at 1K. Unfortunately the buff 50 cals can hit the 109 at 2K. But if the buffer doesn't know this an holds fire till 1 K like he would at sea level, the 109 can blast him. And hispanos at 30K shoot a very long ways.

The bottom line, the higher you go, the flatter and further you shoot.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Morpheus on December 28, 2005, 09:33:52 PM
IRL that's the way it is... I couldnt recall if the same stood for AH or not. I remember it being talked about though. I'm impressed that HT modeled that in.

In AH, with the damage model the way it is. A bullet hit is just that... No variables... Or am I wrong?  At 1500 yards, energy upon impact is significantly less than it is at 500. Damage is going to be different (IRL) at different ranges. Or is this also modeled in?
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: SirLoin on December 28, 2005, 09:59:29 PM
all it means to me is buff guns r lethal at 2k..:)
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Krusty on December 29, 2005, 12:54:31 AM
AH models distance from memory HT has mentioned this. However, that's not to say b24 guns can't hurt at 2k (they will --IF-- they land, and in enough quantity)
Title: Re: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Max on December 29, 2005, 08:52:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
Very simple question.

Are the ballistics of bullets effected by altitude and atmospheric conditions in game?

 


As in, the higher the altitude, the less atmospheric pressure, hence longer trajectory? I don't recall ever hearing or reading that this IS the case but if it were, wouldn't the playing field be even in terms of an opponant returning fire at the same alt?

MaX
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: hitech on December 29, 2005, 09:03:51 AM
Damge is less as the bullet slows down.
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Furball on December 29, 2005, 09:15:27 AM
how does alt effect convergence? if the guns are set to converge at 400 yards both horizontally and vertically then when the bullets pass horizontally they will actually fire higher because of the flatter tradjectory?
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Max on December 29, 2005, 09:26:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Damge is less as the bullet slows down.


Granted that HT but I think what Morpheus is asking is if bullet velocity and kinetic energy impact are the same at 5K as say, 25K, assuming convergence and everything else being the same.

Max
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Morpheus on December 29, 2005, 09:32:51 AM
Quote
As in, the higher the altitude, the less atmospheric pressure, hence longer trajectory?


HT just said above that this is modeled in to the game . All it means (very basicly) is that the trajectory of the bullet is going to be flatter the higher up you go. In regards to advantages, no. Ballistic diferences at sea level between say, 30mm and .50cal will coincide with the rounds ballistics at 15k on a relative scale.

There is far more to it than just air density being used to equate ballistics of a given round. air density ratio, temperature, baro pressure, speed of sound. All of these parameters will be versus a given altitude.

Do these parameters exist in AH?
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: YUCCA on December 29, 2005, 01:19:52 PM
Uh it's as simple as .target XXX
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: YUCCA on December 29, 2005, 01:21:08 PM
Past 15k the High Explosive properties on cannon would be effected severely correct?
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: hitech on December 29, 2005, 02:43:53 PM
Morph your making it more complicated than it is, Pressure and temp do not effect drag directly. They effect density. Desisty is what is used to compute drag.

HiTech
Title: Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions Vs Ballistics
Post by: Morpheus on December 29, 2005, 03:32:31 PM
Not arguing here... Ballistics are computed from Density among others. But trajectory is  my only concern. Changes in either presure or temperature will reflect on density.
Temp differences aren't going to be a factor if they remain the same across the board. The same would (i imagine) hold true for b pres.

My basis for this thread is not to try to change or fix something. Its just to gain some more in-game knowledge in regards to gunnery in AH. I also find it an interesting subject. I think its remarkable that there are infact exterior ballistic variables in AH. Another one of those things that basicly go overlooked while playing...And do make a difference in knowing.