Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: nirvana on December 29, 2005, 01:01:32 AM
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Apparently two young men from my high school were killed in a car accident this week. Realizing i didn't know them, and that all my my mates from school were making their death a media circus, similar to if some rock star died (think Kurt Cobain or 9/11 "remembrance" with candle light vigils and such bad reference, I know). I am probably one of the most heartless little bastards there are. I feel the need to say this, my supervisor committed suicide last Monday. His funeral services are tomorrow. These 15 year olds are trying to convince me that 2 guys I don't even know matter more then life itself. They would die to have them back. Well how many people die in this country alone each day? How about worldwide? They are whoring these guys like they are celebrities that died in a car accident.
For what it's worth, i've been told my supervisor committed suicide, I had to tell my sister her boss committed suicide, my parents were divorced when I was 7, i've seen death, i've grown up in a time of almost constant war, could i still be sensitive to things like this?
I know many of you have gone through worse things, families members dying of cancer, family members lost in the tsunami, family members committing suicide and the list goes on.
My question to all of you, am I such a heartless person that I am thinking about my supervisor that I actually knew, rather then 2 guys I didn't even know? I send good vibes to the people but damn, they are doing a candle light vigil and everyone is supposed to dress up on Monday in remembrance. I am sincerely sickened and disgusted.
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I think you already have the answer even before starting this thread. Heartless? I'd laugh at whoever tossed that label at you. You dont lack intelligence, fire back with whatever you deem necessary. Better yet, go balls out and lead the charge with candlelight vigils every night for a month, and let the heathens and other heartless bastards that fail to show their devotion fry in hell. They want a vigil and remembrance day? Dont let the ****ers forget it, remind them once a month, once a week, once a DAY.
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I deemed it necesary to send a big **** YOU to all the peoplethat turned it into a joke. This all occured on myspace.com, which, if you haven't heard, is t3h uber kewl for us teenie boppers. People post bulletins for all their friends to see, and by the time I saw the 20th one I was flat out damn sickened so I wrote a counter bulletin. I told them that they wouldn't care if any other kid died that wasn't popular, i told them that if some kid was strangled and strung up in the hall way they wouldn't think twice about it if they didn't know him. It's all a popularity contest. Who can be the first of the 1,000+ people to say "Oh my "friends" died over break" and that is what really makes my stomach turn inside out. They make someones death a gathering point or illiteracy. In a "memorial" video that was posted they used internet type in it. Internet type= illiterate to me. Thingslike "Frenz 4 life" make me wonder how these people even passed 4th grade and how that is supposed to be sincere. If it's gotta be sarcasm and Igotta have a candle light vigil every mother fricking Saturday, then Imight just have to do it. I enjoy pissing people off by saying "Tookie should have died 3 times for killing 3 people" rather then reposting the same stupid bulletin that says he should have lived. I enjoy getting a reaction out of people. And if they want to become a reactionary then bring it on.
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Enjoy it while you can, but dont let it bother you too much. Many insults will transform into insult grenades; your targets wont realize they've been hit til much time has passed and their comprehension reaches your present level.
I think you'll get to the point where educating the retards isnt worth your time and effort. :) You'd love nothing more than to have just handful of your peers understand your perspective. Rarely is it productive to spend the energy on smaller, ignorant targets. Much larger fish await frying in the future, so don't lower yourself to their level in mean time. Find humor in much of it, it'll help in the long run. Bitterness kills a lot of opportunities. :)
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It's hard to have fun while people are trying to mourn. Think of it as an extremely nasty troll. Think your uncle, not really your favorite, buys you sweaters for Cristmas, itchy sweaters, and he has cancer. Now you've never really met him, he's patted your head once or twice at the family reunion, that's all though. Then imagine the cancer kills him. It hurts a bit, it is family after all, but did you really know him? Now imagine that uncle, but you've never even met him, he's never given you anything. He dies of cancer. Does it matter? Does it hurt? Probably not one bit. The latter is how I feel, the former is how a lot of my mates are feeling I think. It stings as if you got hit by a paintball, but it's nothing serious and you can move on.
Now imagine me walking along at the funeral saying,"people die of cancer every day, so what?" Does that piss you off? Or does it not even matter? I'll condescend to them, some girl tried to pick a fight with me ON THE INTERNET. I took a step back, laughed, and when on my way. Just yesterday me and Gunslinger had a nice conversation here in the o'club, however, we conducted ourselves as gentlemen.......for the most part;) When people start saying they want to kick my bellybutton because of a comment on the internet, well, Ithink it's time for a little therapy..... I can understand they are a little on edge but damn, I can really fire those people up.
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Others reaction to what you say, be it mono e mono or on the internet, is their problem, their reaction, so long as your comments do not affect their business (keep it 3rd person). You don't sprinkle magic anger dust on them, they react.
As to your analogy, it isnt far from events that have occured in my life not too long ago. I had found my uncle several days into a diabetic coma at his apartment. He was a great guy, I felt I knew him, but not on a level which would prompt me to hold a vigil. I deal with things my own way, and I did not cry at his funeral. This is probably because virtually all of my memories of this man fell into my definition of 'good,' and i celebrated his life and recalled mostly good memories. I had heard some bad qualities, but I dismissed them as merely plausible because I had not personally observed them.
My sarcasm and deliberate jabs at overt and fake gestures are merely my harsh way of attempting to allow others to gain perspective other than what is expected. My reaction has no effect on my targets mourning process, be it heartfelt or fake; they may react however they want. If they react hostile, most likely this is a reflection of anger at your calling their bluff. Should you choose not to react and deal with the situation in your own private way, and your targets react with hostility, you are within every right to defend yourself and make them the biggest fool possible.
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Friend of mine was murdered in the Bronx 2 weeks ago. Grew up with her from middle school. Found her daughter alive though - wasn't any big media blitz over the ordeal. Classmates and I had a service tonight in Westport CT - no body of course since its still an open investigation.
Its a matter of maturity Nirvana - you've been been through more **** then the rest.
S.
Wolf
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Originally posted by nirvana
I enjoy getting a reaction out of people. And if they want to become a reactionary then bring it on.
That is a lousy reason to do anything. The tale of a couple teenagers dying in a car accident is tragic but sadly not uncommon for many.
Have a discussion, or if you know you're going to disagree beforehand it's best to just avoid the conversation anyway. Don't say something just to get a reaction because you're actually worse then them at that point doing something that will knowingly trigger an unpleasant emotion.
When I was in high school we had a student die of cancer, several were killed in automotive accidents and 2 suicides as I recall in the 4 years I was there.
Each time a tragedy happened the staff and administration would gather us in the auditorium for a period of time one afternoon and people who knew the people would say what they remembered about the person. It didn't matter if they wern't part of your "group" race or niche...you sat and went through it.
It's not something I was happy to attend, and the students understood. When a high school kid dies...it's big news. It's not supposed to happen. Unfortunately...I knew the 15 year old girl taken by cancer and a couple of the kids killed in auto accidents.
Nirvana you do seem mature and I wasn't there to see it...but if the kids who died typed phrases like "Frenz 4 life" and the like, then those who produced the video (and very likely...knew them) then I'm sure it was anything but a joke.
I've watched my fair share of memorial videos just in high school, and I've even contributed photos and memories to a few. I can promise you that at no point was the point of them to be sarcastic, a joke or to make fun of the person that died.
If they knew them, or didn't know them and want to remember them because they are in fact part of their class and members of their school then let them mourn. Let them celebrate that persons life and don't stand in their way.
I can assure you if you walked into the funeral of a very good friend of mine and said even one word bad about her or the people remembering her I wouldn't have had any sympathy toward what I would do to you once out of eyesight and earshot of the pepople there. Be happy it happened on myspace because if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person when emotions are running high...I wouldn't try to hold them responsible for what they do to you.
If nobody else does I will say based on what you wrote and what most likely happened that you were out of line and acted only the way you did because you didn't know them. You'd sing a different tune if you did, just like you do with your supervisor. On the grounds of my school there are several memorials and a number of scholarships set up in the names of thsoe who have died. If you tried to say that those are a joke and we don't really care...you've got another thing coming.
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That's a big assumption Golfer. The same action can be rationalized from any perspective on the whole. Nirvana saw it as a joke and most likely others did too. Because he's the one to call out the clowns of the circus he's in the wrong? I am partial to this version cos I've seen variations of it time to time... clowns calling out the audience for their lack of support is equal bull****. Does it come down to who fired first? Lacking omnipotent powers, I digress.
In any case, so long as one's way has no effect on anyone else's way of dealing with ****, then it should be acceptable.
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If he's only trying to trigger an emotional reaction...he's the thorn in the side that he's saying they are. That certainly fits the definition of having an effect on someones way of dealing with ****
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I'm saying he's on the defensive. Or they're on the defensive... we dont know. Whoever shot first is the salamander.
Either way, both sides shouldnt **** with the other and all will be well.
Furthermore, the kids shouldnt be pulled out of class to remember some student elevated to honored status merely because they cease to have a pulse. But thats just me... in another discussion altogether.
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Furthermore, the kids shouldnt be pulled out of class to remember some student elevated to honored status merely because they cease to have a pulse.
I didn't and now don't think it was a bad idea for the students to get together and have a short 30 minute service to remember one of their classmates. Not just classmates, but they were students of the teachers as well. If we couldn't give up 30-60minutes to talk openly about and listen to those that knew the kids so we could understand who they were instead of just a name then maybe we're all too selfish.
And also...I don't know what they call it now (something gay..."Connections" I think) but when I was there our 10th period "class" was just homeroom for studyhall, B.S. and card games.
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Originally posted by Octavius
Furthermore, the kids shouldnt be pulled out of class to remember some student elevated to honored status merely because they cease to have a pulse. But thats just me... in another discussion altogether.
I'd concur with that. That's mere bull**** to me. People have different ways of dealing with things, humour is one of mine. I'm no funny guy but i've learned that listening to sad depressing music does nothing. Hell i'll follow what Octavius says and i'll attend the candle light vigil. I've gone sarcastic and said i'd write a petition to get the school renamed (right like that will happen). That's the point where any sane person SHOULD say "is he serious?" but I guess in a time of mourning everything is believable?
I think that using what is a seemingly lack of scoial skills to create a memorial is disrespectful in my opinion, i'm not saying they were doing it as a joke, i'm sure they meant it to truly be taken seriously, I just couldn't take it seriously. I've told my friend that anything i've gone through I don't ask for people to go out of their way to feel sad or sympathetic for me. Where does that go? No where, I tell them to move on and get past it. Wallowing in the past is a waste of time. What i'm seeing is people posting chain letters, of the same stuff all the time about it. I know they want to express their distress and angst, but is a website full of teens with little to no life experience, myself included, a place to do it? I've told them to talk to the families, or write a card, or something, just stop whining about how you miss them. Crying gets you no where in life so what's the point. I'm also an overly sarcastic person which in this instance may get me in trouble, or put false hopes in peoples minds. I'll write up one of those online petitions to get our school name changed and tell them about it to see how gullible they are. Would that be mean? School counselors have said the school averages about 1 suicide per year, and no one *****es and cries about them, not that I know of anyway.
Would it be wrong for the school to hold a moment of silence for the boys? It's tragic, it really is for a teen to die before he or she graduates but sadly it happens. It happens, it's life, we can go on with our lives. You have to keep a positive attitude about them. One of the young men died from internal bleeding during surgery, he is no longer suffering. The other died from brain damage, his family decided to take him off life support. Like I told one of my friends, do you want to see him laying there, brain dead on life support? It's not living, with all respect, he probably wouldn't even recognize his own family.
Oh and Octavius didn't know about your uncle, thought about your mom, your dad, grandmother, aunt...uncle just seemed like it would do, no disrespect intended.
Thanks for the comments guys. And hopefully they find the body Wolfala, sad story, sorry to hear it.
You see, I can be sorry for people i've never met. It's when people start making a big ruckus about it that it starts to irritate me and get on my nerves.
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Black and white
I defined these terms
quite clear no doubt somehow
Ah but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now.
Dylan
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Are you trying to say my maturity level has gone down ten fold by responding to the people that mourn Midnight Target? If so you are probably correct, it was a very immature thing to express my opinion, and then continue to talk to the people. It was pure instigation. And I wasn't being sarcastic. I believe part of growing up is learning to part with people who you were friends with, it's tough, but it needs to be. You can't wallow in the past.
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Actually no, the point of the lyric is that the surety of youth will give way to the wisdom of age. Today you may be absolute in the knowledge that you speak the truth and consequences be damned. Tomorrow you may waken to the realization that there may be other truths just as valid.
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nirvana, simple as this: if the guys died, and they were nothing to you, give em a quick respectfull nod, and move on, and dont get in the way of those who were close to him and are doing there clumsy best.
dont show up at no candle light vigil because you feel forced, and if anyone gives you **** about it, defend yourself. but if you show up to make mock, or to avoid taking **** for being "heartless" it makes YOU worse than you perceive them to be.
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Originally posted by nirvana
Oh and Octavius didn't know about your uncle, thought about your mom, your dad, grandmother, aunt...uncle just seemed like it would do, no disrespect intended.
Oh, no disrespect at all. When it turns into a circus with pomp and bogus tears, sincerety goes out the window and everything involved is tinged.
Try not burn too many bridges in your crusade. :)
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Is it possible that the folks you are so fed up with, are doing the best they can with something they shouldn't have to be dealing with at that age?
My 15 year old daughter and 21 year old son were killed in a car wreck at the end of August. The kids came out of the woodwork from school for the funeral. Some sang in the choir, a couple played and sang both my son's and my daughter's favorite songs.
They did the counselors there to talk bit at school for those who wanted to. If you looked at it, I suppose you could say it was overkill. I don't know. I figure people were doing the best they could with something that there is no correct way to deal with.
I didn't see it as a popularity contest, as my kids never ran with the 'popular' crowd. Did some folks seem to 'cry' louder and longer then others? I suppose. But it's such a goofy unreal thing that I can't be angry at them.
That being said, there is no script for how someone mourns or deals with death. I know my wife, my surviving daughter and I all deal with it differently. For me it's a much more solitary thing, late a night when the house is quiet. Then the emotions come out and I can let myself feel the pain.. I can't talk about it yet, outside of typing like this. My daughter doesn't want to accept it at all. My wife talks about it often. I don't know that any of us are doing it wrong.
I remember back when I was a senior in High School, the gal I took to senior prom was killed in a car wreck a week before graduation. I remember seeing a lot of what you saw, and wondering why I couldn't feel that. But it was too surreal to me then. It didn't make sense and I couldn't put it into a slot that let me understand that someone so vibrant and with so much going for them could be gone just like that.
I'd suggest not worrying about the others, and allowing yourself to mourn the person that clearly has affected you with their death.
The others are allowed to mourn their way, you mourn your way.
No explainations needed.
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I've decided not to attend. What I did in my first post to my friend was incite something that I shouldn't have. I should have let it be and let them live in their world of misery.
Candle light vigil-Not attending, I thought about giving a eulogy type thing but I decided against it, what's the point?
"Dressing up" on Monday-Not doing it at all, and i'm not going to dress really horribly. I'm going to dress how I normally dress.
I've stated an apology to my friend that was hurt the most by my immaturity, whether it did anything or not is questionable. I actually think she contradicted herself by saying even if you didn't know them you should still feel sad because then she said no one knew my supervisor so they shouldn't be sad about him, but instead of starting another mudslide, I decided against it. I'll let them live but damned if I don't come home from school Monday pissy because of all the people crying. I'm serious, it has turned into a mockery. At times I question whether they are acting out of kindness or out of selfishness for popularity. Either way i'm keeping the trap shut.
Would it be in bad taste to complain to the school if they hold a memorial service for the whole school?
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You are allowed to feel or not feel as you choose. No one can dictate your emotions.
If they do a school wide memorial, let it be. If you choose not to attend, that should be up to you.
It's the wrong cause to fight over.
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Would it be in bad taste to complain to the school if they hold a memorial service for the whole school? [/B]
Yes. Way beyond bad taste......don't do it.
If you don't agree with it, just don't attend.
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I'm saying I never even knew either of the 2 that died and thus i'm feeling nothing. You could say that i'm numb to death, but i think that would be a lie. I think i've come to accept, no matter who or what causes it, is a fact of life. No one lives forever so when it's time to go, it's time. It just seems to me like some people are trying to pull something out of thin air, like when your favorite celebrity dies and you feel like you have some sort of special connection with them.
In the end they all have the surreal disbelief thoughts that I used to have. Thinking that they will wake up in a few hours and they will see their faces again, but it's not going to happen. It's the final round and it's over. It's something I used to have a hard time coping with. I say, "Only time will cure your pain" and they don't believe it. They only want to see their friends back and I can understand that. As hard as some people are taking it a suicide seems like it's closing in, and i'm saddened to say that. Some people feel like they have hit rock bottom with this. Their first death that they can truly comprehend. Never feeling such a loss and emptiness. I won't entertain thoughts of mocking them though, I will let them be as they please.
Here's the link for the story http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4346809,00.html
The kid could face some major stuff, under 16, probably not supposed to carry passengers under 21, crossed lanes. Parker Road has a 55MPH speed limit so it probably wasn't by any means slow. Sad.
P.S. Nuke, it's not an attend or not attend, you WILL attend. It's like school pep rallies, nothing is optional.
P.P.S. Sorry about your son and daughter Virgil, my condolences. Thanks for sharing.
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I don't believe for a second that time will heal the pain from the loss. That's speaking for me.
Each morning when I wake up, the answer is always the same. My kids aren't coming home.
Is that a fact of life? Absolutely. Nothing is going to heal that wound. I won't ever be the same. I don't expect to be. Two huge pieces of my heart have been taken from me.
Don't get to quick to make blanket statements about loss.
Will the kids at school move on? You bet. Yet those closest to the kids killed will be affected by it longer. I know my daughter's two best friends have really struggled.
One of the things they struggle with is how fast things got back to 'normal' at school. They're angry that it seems like people are forgetting already.
I understand that to a degree. It's hard when you know you have to go on, but you want to make sure the kids aren't forgotten. 10 years from now, outside of my family, who'll care that two very special people died in August. Who'll even remember.
It's a hard thing to process.
Again, you have to let people feel what they feel and deal with the losses as they choose to. No one can do it right, as there is no right way to do it.
You have your way, they have theirs.
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"P.S. Nuke, it's not an attend or not attend, you WILL attend. It's like school pep rallies, nothing is optional."
only doors on prisons are locked to keep people in, its merely a matter of walking out the front door when they call it, and if your worried about trouble (with the school, or other students), duck into a bathroom on the way, and slip out a back door. either way is preferable to lip-service.
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I'm serious about this Vorticon, school security will 1, lock the door or 2, guard the doors. Once you are in the gym or auditorium you are there for good, no bathroom breaks. If you decide to leave you are truant, I.E. breaking a law. Our security guards are like Nazi's, they can ask for identification at any time, and if you don't have it.....well off to the school administrators to deal with you how they like. If you would like me to participate in civil disobediance it might not be a bad start for me. Hell i'll tell my mom she might have to pick me up for truancy, guess what, she will do it. that's a whole other issue though. And yes, we do have bars on or school windows.
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I wonder why you are reacting so strongly to this nirvana? So they take a half hour and you sit there out of respect to the two who lost their lives.
Regardless whether you knew them or not, they were people. For no other reason, I'd think you could tolerate the 1/2 hour if you had to.
No one can force you to feel anything about it, but sometimes we do things out of respect for our fellow human beings.
I guess it's part of being a community.
If you feel that strongly about not attending, then talk to your folks. Explain your reasons, and see if they'll let you remain at home that day.
If not, just sit tight and get through it.
You seem to be giving too much energy to those who you see as frauds in all this. Might as well get used to it. You'll encounter them all your life. It's still up to you whether you let them get to you or not :)
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It's my upbringing in that if you see something wrong, fight it. Sure I could sit in complacence for 30 minutes or an hour, whatever. I respect them as human beings, but I am also ready to move on with my life. I'm reacting as if i were the one that was dead. I wouldn't want my friends carrying on and crying about it. I'd want everyone to carry onwith their lives, a tragic end to a young life. Of course that is just my opinion and what i would like to happen, I have no influence of how others react.
In fact it was wrong of me to tell people that I was not going to feel any pain for the two young men, because that is what started it. People started forcing their beliefs that even if I didn't know them I should still feel pain for them, and I didn't like that. I liked it as much as my teacher telling me that she "owned" me while I was in her class. I have a brain and I have a mind, I use them. If someone doesn't like my opinion that's their fault. I'll accept their grieving, i've offered a shoulder to cry on, but I won't be acting like I knew them.
I don't even think that made sense, i think i'm just starting to ramble and repeat what I say.
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Keep it simple and tell'em you think their efforts, while with good intentions (or fake tears, hard to discern), come off as disrespectful. Take a step back for a few days and approach from the beginning for new perspective.
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I think i'm gonna take a step back and never return. They can feel sorrow and feel pain and all the other stuff that is associated with death, but if I can avoid it, I am going to. In this case, it's highly avoidable. There's no need for me to be involved anymore so why should I be. It seems like no one wants me involved and if I was, there wouldn't be anything but sadness for the young men that I feel have been disrespected. I might have even disrespected them by bringing up this thread and shining more light on the subject. It's not my problem unless I make it my problem.
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Originally posted by nirvana
It's my upbringing in that if you see something wrong, fight it. Sure I could sit in complacence for 30 minutes or an hour, whatever. I respect them as human beings, but I am also ready to move on with my life. I'm reacting as if i were the one that was dead. I wouldn't want my friends carrying on and crying about it. I'd want everyone to carry onwith their lives, a tragic end to a young life. Of course that is just my opinion and what i would like to happen, I have no influence of how others react.
In fact it was wrong of me to tell people that I was not going to feel any pain for the two young men, because that is what started it. People started forcing their beliefs that even if I didn't know them I should still feel pain for them, and I didn't like that. I liked it as much as my teacher telling me that she "owned" me while I was in her class. I have a brain and I have a mind, I use them. If someone doesn't like my opinion that's their fault. I'll accept their grieving, i've offered a shoulder to cry on, but I won't be acting like I knew them.
I don't even think that made sense, i think i'm just starting to ramble and repeat what I say.
You'd have gotten along with my 15 year old daughter just fine. She was the same way. She couldn't tolerate people acting the part.
The difference was, she 'killed em with kindness'. She'd go after anyone who was intolerant of the folks who didn't fit in. She was fearless that way. The world will be a lesser place now that she's gone.
She also knew there was a time and a place for it. Right now is too soon to be making an issue of this. Later, when the dust has settled is the time to reflect on peoples actions and question the motivation.
Just accept that how you react and how others react to this is clearly different. Neither is the right or wrong way
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Dammit guys I think they have gone too far. They have actually brought the media in, it was on the news this evening. It is quite literally a circus of disrespect now.
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If anything is to be learned from this experience, it is simply that life can blink out of existance with little or no notice.
Why waste even a moment wringing your hands over how Other people deal with the loss, how they commune, or overcome? You clearly don't know these guys nor care to participate in the mass group hug, so why are you investing so much effort into being repulsed by somebody elses actions? Why have you latched onto this so hard?
The only thing you need to get clear on is this, it isn't about you, get over yourself. Participate with them, remember them your own way, or don't remember them at all, but good grief, get off those who want to attempt to deal with the loss their own way.
The Only, and I mean ONLY people that need to be concerned over whether or not there is disrespect is the immediate family. Did it possibly occur to you that this Circus of Disrespect may be a single bright light of support to the family that lost a child? Who are you to be offended?
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You're right ROC, why waste my time with something of little concern to me. Perhaps it is that I think it s but a common occurence, death that is, not having your friends die. Perhaps I am shocked and awed by their actions, perhaps i'm just begging for attention, or maybe it just doesn't matter. Moreso I lack a simple understanding and sympathy for humans grieving. It is dumb to be offended by something I am clearly not involved in, and that I am dragging myself into everytime I take notice of it. While it may be easy for me to carry on with life it will probably be very hard for them to carry on daily routines. I've never thought of the media as any more then ratings mongerers that will do anything for a stories and that is why I call it a circus of disrespect, the media is a disrespectful audience, as am I. I believe we should let the dead rest in piece, and so that's what this thread should do.
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PC confrontations are the worst.. usually unwinnable since yer far more likely to create gold from lead than you are brains from vacuum.
So, Pick yer social 'battles' very carefully. Be advised it's possible to win every one, and still lose the 'war'.
Or, as my dear 'ol gramps used ta say, 'engage brain before mouth, cuddlinghunk'.
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Personally I care about those who have cared about me, I dont use my energy to feel sorrow for other people. Hope I dont get any enemies from saying this, but I didnt feel anything from 9/11, It isnt a matter of caring or not caring, its a matter of what affects me as a person, Not feeling for people I dont know doesnt mean that I dont give a crap, or make me a heartless person, or keep me from acknowleging that it was a horrific tragedy, But it doesnt emotionally affect me. Simply because I knew noone in it, and I am thankful I didnt. This could be a way of sheilding myself I tend to assume, but I can tell you I am not heartless.
To anyone here on the boards who may have lost someone in a tragedy I mean no offense. Fubar
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I was like you once, Nirvana. Didn't want to get involved in situations like that and wondering at the motivations of many of the people involved. But I soon gave up. Quite simply it's part of living in any society. All have their rituals and the funeral/mourning rite is one of the strongest in any society. We have to say goodbye to our relatives and friends and then move on. That is the reason for the ritual. The fact that some people are enjoying the whole event in some morbid way doesn't detract from the fact that other people need the ritual before they move on.
It works in all parts of life. We always end up doing things we don't want to or don't enjoy or feel uncomfortable doing. It's all part of living as part of a family or the society we live in.
You did well to spot the hypocrisy of some people. Just remember it for the future. Remember it too when you find yourself part of a group who all believe passionately in the same thing or issue or course of action. Ask yourself then, are they all really believing the same thing or are some of them simply there because they don't want to be left out of the group or mob. OR maybe they are afraid to differ from the group?
Pick your battles carefully or you will get yourself marked down as a crank or an oddball. This issue was not the one to fight. You should simply have gone to the memorial and observed the way people enjoy the ritual even if they care nothing for the subjects. They may even believe otherwise themselves but you will also find that most people including me and you lie to ourselves all the time. It's just easier to get on with life that way.
This applies to all parts of life, politics, religion, work, college, religion, family. I came to that realisation as a teenager and kept confronting the hypocrisy. It was futile, you can't change people really and in the end you give up and conform, become a bit more conservative and go with the flow.
I'm more like Fubar now, although 9/11 did upset me. I try to no longer use up my energy feeling sorry for people I don't know. People die all the time. It's part of life. But I don't bother to challenge people who get all worked up about it. It's not worth the energy either. Save it for the situations that apply to you.
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Originally posted by nirvana
You're right ROC, why waste my time with something of little concern to me. Perhaps it is that I think it s but a common occurence, death that is, not having your friends die. Perhaps I am shocked and awed by their actions, perhaps i'm just begging for attention, or maybe it just doesn't matter. Moreso I lack a simple understanding and sympathy for humans grieving. It is dumb to be offended by something I am clearly not involved in, and that I am dragging myself into everytime I take notice of it. While it may be easy for me to carry on with life it will probably be very hard for them to carry on daily routines. I've never thought of the media as any more then ratings mongerers that will do anything for a stories and that is why I call it a circus of disrespect, the media is a disrespectful audience, as am I. I believe we should let the dead rest in piece, and so that's what this thread should do.
Would you consider a double murder/suicide involving some 19 and 20 year old kids a newsworthy event? I was in a unique position when I was thrust in the middle of that situation with the local media. I recieved word of the situation 8am the day after, and by 5pm that night I'd finally seen (not talked) to my best friend who survived. His sister, also a very close friend was a victim. Her new boyfriend, also a victim of her ex boyfriend.
I knew everyone involved but the ex strangely enough and everyone associated with them knew that. It was no surprise that later in the evening I had recieved calls from our local paper and a tv news station asking for information. I didn't say a word to the TV station (stonewalled by everyone involved. If not they never ran anything except the 9-1-1 call which I was not ready to hear when I did) but the local news journalist knew one of the families and I had confidence in her respect for the situation. I spoke on the condition that I was the only one who spoke regarding one family involved and she held up her end of the bargain. While I agree that normal everyday events are not 'newsworthy' and the majority of news stories are 'bad news' if people didn't watch them (as morbid as it sounds) then they wouldn't run them. The television station had no ties to anybody other than they wanted a soundbyte. The newspaper journalist had a connection and she got one interview and wrote a nice story out of respect for all involved.
Some background on the girl:
I was captain of the golf team, her brother the #2 and herself the only girl (and also played regularly as our #5 or #6 player for the varsity) involved with golf at our high school. I couldn't count the holes we played, the frosties shared or the steps taken all 3 of us side by side. You see why we were all close. Her and I were in the same grade, her brother a year below. They lived together in a condo at the same college (not the one I attended) and that's where the incident took place.
Two days later I spoke at her wake and played "two step" at a church service for her with a friend of hers I didn't know and we later went on to play in a band with the brother that survived. There is a scholarship fund set up in her name and a memorial golf touranment every year in N.C. to raise money for it.
Two girls each year win college scholarships that otherwise wouldn't if the tragedy had not happened. While I'd give anything to have her back, as would her family...they are the hosts of the tournament. They keep it strictly a family affair as far as help around the tournament goes. I help a little bit but barely feel I contribute.
I've spent too much time trying to write this already and won't go into any more details, but nirvana if you ever tried to stand in the way of me mourning any way I chose the loss of one of my friends I would ask you to pray that I restrain myself.
You are nobody to say that people mourn the right or wrong way.
You are nobody to talk down for others for dealing with a loss.
You are nobody to try and get a reaction out of people already emotionally overloaded.
You are beneath everyone you are against in your posts for even bringing this up on an AH BBs. You don't deserve praise, attention or affection for boasting about your outrage that people are mourning someone that you don't care about. You're are in no position to say what they do or do not feel.
You are in no position to judge them and if I had the opportunity to stand in front of a camera and air an unedited segment telling the whole world about a great girl who was murdered and a great legacy that lives on...I'd jump at the chance.
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We had a tornado strike an elementary school in my district in '89....very unusual for NY, it killed 9 and injured a few dozen, made the national news. Since then, many many kids that were in the district have died, been killed, or killed themselves. Something like 30 for that 5 year span of students, a high percentage for a group that includes 1200 of us.
Every time another dies they have a feature story in the paper about the "Coldenham Curse". The media circus sickens me.
"On November 16, 1989, a wind gust at 12:05 PM blew down the free standing cafeteria wall at the East Coldenham Elementary School near Newburg, NY. Nine students were killed. The event was called a tornado, but the only rotation seen in the area was a dust swirl in the parking lot. Professor Fujita's detailed survey of the entire path showed only evidence of microbursts. It exists on official records as a tornado, the deadliest F1 "tornado" in history."
http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2005/02/27/bmmk300.htm
Believe me, you aren't cold hearted, I feel the same way when a friend dies and this is all brought up in the papers yet again.
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I'm respecting how they mourn, i'm not talking down to them. I just think the media is anything but respect. Like you said, they were there for a soundbyte, just so they would have the story.
I believe I deserve nothing for bringing up this topic on these boards. I was wondering how heartless and cold I am for not feeling anything for two boys that died that i didn't even know. Had i not said anything to my friends in the first place, all of these arguments wouldn't have occurred. It is my opinion that they were forcing me to mourn the loss of their friends when I wanted nothing to do with it. I don't believe anyone has a right to talk about the deceased in such a way that I have, to make a mockery of the entire situation. Had I not felt forced to mourn I wouldn't have reacted. It was completely stupid and immature to question their mourning process of which I wasn't even involved in. I, however, also feel it is somewhat wrong for my school to set up an area for people who have been greatly affected, but I can also see their reasoning. Seriously, I have seen almost as much hype over 2 deaths then I saw over 9/11.
20/20 hindsight though, I would have said nothing.
And i'm sorry about your circumstances Golfer.
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Originally posted by nirvana
Seriously, I have seen almost as much hype over 2 deaths then I saw over 9/11.
3000 lives isn't hype. I for one don't let a day go by without thinking about what I saw that morning even only on live television. It's not just the 3000 lives. It's the 3 people I knew. Many more knew many more.
Comparing a car accident to September 11th...c'mon. September 11th isn't hype, it's a national tragedy. 2 high school kids. Boys. It could have been you, you know that right? It's a local tragedy.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Or, as my dear 'ol gramps used ta say, 'engage brain before mouth, cuddlinghunk'.
He was right about cuddlinghunk part .
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thankfully the class of 96 where I graduated had the decency to wait until july of 96 to start wrapping themselves around sagauros.
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I'm sorry, Nirv, that you're being required to sacrifice thirty minutes out of your busy day to pay respects to high school students you didn't even know.
There are some things that a person is expected to do when they reach adulthood. You could call attending this memorial service a type of civic duty...something you should do simply because you are a human being.
Couple of thoughts about some statements in other responses;
"This type of thing isn't supposed to happen.." and "They shouldn't have to be dealing with this type of thing at their age..." referring to the deaths of the two students in the car accident.
Oh? Why not? Death is one of the realities of life. Are we raising our kids these days in an artificial environment, a type of cocoon, when we try to insulate them from all of the unpleasant things that can happen?
Reality 101's first lesson is, "You CAN die son. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. There are bad consequences for some actions...and certain actions carry really BAD consequences. You are NOT exempted from suffering those consequences. If you do drugs, you could fry your brain. If you drive while intoxicated you could kill yourself and/or other people. If you drive too fast, you could kill yourself. If you drive AT ALL you run the risk of becoming a statistic. There are NO guarantees that you will live forever."
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The kid that driving suffered a broken nose and some other bruises but lived as did another kid (according to the article i posted). Could he be facing anytype of manslaughter charges? Maybe involuntary vehicular? People are already making threats toward him. Make mistakes pay the consequences though.
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Originally posted by nirvana
The kid that driving suffered a broken nose and some other bruises but lived as did another kid (according to the article i posted). Could he be facing anytype of manslaughter charges? Maybe involuntary vehicular? People are already making threats toward him. Make mistakes pay the consequences though.
So now you want to take a kid who just lost two friends and throw charges at him?
Please stop talking. While we're here...a story.
One of the most extraordinary things I've ever seen was a 16 year old boy standing in front of 1000 of his peers and teachers talking about first hand experience with reckless driving. How'd he get the experience? He and his friend were in the car going through a neighborhood seeing how fast they could go. They were in an unfamiliar area and ended up running a stop sign. Not normally a big deal and there's a large field on the opposite side of the cross road so a tow and a little blushing and normally they'd be on their way.
That day wasn't normal. A full dump truck from a quarry a few miles away was driving past loaded with rocks and dirt. When they went around the bend and saw the stop sign with not enough room to stop...he hit the brakes. It slowed then down just enough to take a direct side impact from the dump truck.
The boy in the passenger seat died on impact and the kid driving survived with many cuts to his face which are very visible and he's quite literally scarred for life.
I'll ask you...did the family press charges? Attempt to? Succeed if attempted?
Start using your head Nirvana. It could be you buried in a cemetery or it could be you living for the rest of your life with the fact that your actions killed your friends.
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Nirvana, bud, your NOT heartless, and if anyone else says you are, then they need to get thier head checked! Im only 19 and i have seen death more then i care for. During my 4 years in highschool, we had someone die in a car accident every year, not including the couple of kids who died when i was in middle school. Its tough to try and feel bad for people you dont know, trust me, ive been there. This one kid died a couple of years ago driving a snowmobile down a county road and slammed head on into a truck. He died instantly! Everybody in the school made a big deal about it, even though we was the biggest a-hole around. Did i feel bad for him, heck no, did i feel bad for his familyl, a little bit, but it was his own stupidity that made him drive a snowmobile on a county road in the dark, WITHOUT headlights on! DUH!!!
Bud, your not heartless, your being yourself, if they dont like it, F*CK THEM! Plain and simple!
http://www.myspace.com/bassim
My myspace site! he he!
Egle31
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Your not heartless, your normal. Its normal to feel more about sombody you know over sombody that you dont. The kids at your school need to grow up a little and realize that
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Hold on guys, i just want to post what my friend has said.
You are... are you dressing up tomorrow?
epar si dab: no, i'm dressing like kris
Friend: well you should dress up
epar si dab: well no
epar si dab: i'm respecting them by not making it a big issue
epar si dab: i'm letting them rest in piece
epar si dab: peace
Friend: ... Two people died - and everybody is dressing up... IT'S SHOWING THAT WE CARE!!!!
epar si dab: i'm showing that i care by respecting them my own way
epar si dab: don't force your views on me
epar si dab: please
Friend: am I forcing anything?!? No
epar si dab: you are trying to peer pressure me
Friend: lol okay
epar si dab: don't do it
epar si dab: it makes me mad
Friend: Like I care
epar si dab: you wouldn't
Friend: You make every little thing into something towards you...
epar si dab: you were forcing your opinions of dressing up onto me
epar si dab: and i didn't enjoy them
epar si dab: you do what you want, i'll do what i want, fair?
epar si dab: i respect your religion, you respect my lack of religion, fair?
She went on to call me rude for responding to her question as "no". That's all I wanted to share, do you guys think I handled it maturely?
P.S. No Golfer I don't want to throw charges at him, His two friends dying is a harsh enough reality for him. Knowing all his life what happened. People will probably eventually stop blaming him, however, will he stop blaming himself?
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Not trying to disagree Golfer, and would not press chargers myself, but If I was involved with the legal system Id punish him to the full extent. Reckless driving and having an accident dont mix. I understand his pain alone is enough punishment, but Id make an example out of him by making sure he got what the law could do.
I dont think this is a matter of whos morally right or whos morally wrong, its just opinions and stronger feelings than others have.
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Originally posted by nirvana
Hold on guys, i just want to post what my friend has said.
You are... are you dressing up tomorrow?
epar si dab: no, i'm dressing like kris
Friend: well you should dress up
epar si dab: well no
epar si dab: i'm respecting them by not making it a big issue
epar si dab: i'm letting them rest in piece
epar si dab: peace
Friend: ... Two people died - and everybody is dressing up... IT'S SHOWING THAT WE CARE!!!!
epar si dab: i'm showing that i care by respecting them my own way
epar si dab: don't force your views on me
epar si dab: please
Friend: am I forcing anything?!? No
epar si dab: you are trying to peer pressure me
Friend: lol okay
epar si dab: don't do it
epar si dab: it makes me mad
Friend: Like I care
epar si dab: you wouldn't
Friend: You make every little thing into something towards you...
epar si dab: you were forcing your opinions of dressing up onto me
epar si dab: and i didn't enjoy them
epar si dab: you do what you want, i'll do what i want, fair?
epar si dab: i respect your religion, you respect my lack of religion, fair?
She went on to call me rude for responding to her question as "no". That's all I wanted to share, do you guys think I handled it maturely?
P.S. No Golfer I don't want to throw charges at him, His two friends dying is a harsh enough reality for him. Knowing all his life what happened. People will probably eventually stop blaming him, however, will he stop blaming himself?
She called you rude?
Sounds to me like your friend needs to get over herself.
Your handleing it in your own way, she should respect that.
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I think she is a trendy shmuck who is using this event to fit in, and because he wont she is offended. DEATH TO THE TRENDY
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Sorry to bring this thread in again in light of all the recent tragedy. On friday Jan 6, a young man from my school committed suicide. How much I would like to see people at least ackowledge his violent and selfish end to life, i've seen nothing from the 30 or so people that were claiming even if you didn't know someone you should show your condolences. I've seen not one "R.I.P. Matt". Seems sad, and in a way is a horrid way to prove my point, but no one cares about someone that won't let them fit in and be trendy. I didn't know the kid but:
R.I.P. Matt
P.S. my "point" was that all the people that were saying R.I.P. to the other 2 guys were doing it to further their popularity status "look at me I can feel sorry too" kind of thing. Just riding the bandwagon until a wheel falls off, then they jump on the next big thing, whatever it may be. Like I said, it's stupid for me to get egotistical about something like that about these tragedies but damn, if you're going to say something then actually mean it.
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a girl from my school died last year. i shed not one tear. so you are not alone.
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If a nerd dies in the forest....