Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Casper1 on December 29, 2005, 09:13:08 AM
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Anyone out there willing to teach me what you know about fighting in the 51D?
I am not a n00b, per se, but do wish I could get more out of this plane and be able to kill 2-3 per flight instead of 1 kill and 3 assists.
I have been flying for about 8 months. My main rides are the Dora, 51D, LA-7 (for defense), and the F4U-4.
PM me, or reply here. Thanks all.
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GrmRpr was offering training in the DA for the P51. If you see him on line PM him and I'm sure he'll be happy to help.
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:aok
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Is GrmRpr a good stick in the 51D? I dont recall seeing him in game, at least him shooting me down if he is Bish or Rook.
Thanks Morph.
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Originally posted by Casper1
Is GrmRpr a good stick in the 51D? I dont recall seeing him in game, at least him shooting me down if he is Bish or Rook.
Thanks Morph.
Check his score, 63 kills and 17 deaths in a P51D. I would say he has something to offer :)
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Originally posted by Casper1
Is GrmRpr a good stick in the 51D? I dont recall seeing him in game, at least him shooting me down if he is Bish or Rook.
Thanks Morph.
Well the only time I fought him repeatedly 1 on 1 in the MA, he was in a p51 I was in a 190a5. We did a couple of merges and he was doing the lame shoot-in-the-face and extend routine, so I obliged in a vertical HO and killed him. I had fun nonetheless, so I PMed him a salute and a "good fight" to which he replied "Nice HO dweeb!". After that he was more timid in his p51 as we kept meeting 1v1. He usually had more and more alt every time, in the course of about 5 engagements.
Nothing spectacular. Flew like a dweeb. Died like one too. Every time came back at more and more alt. Although in ONE of the fights I liked how he latched onto me, can't recall what he did but I just remember thinking "oh, that was nice" as he saddled up.
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Originally posted by GunnerCAF
Check his score, 63 kills and 17 deaths in a P51D. I would say he has something to offer :)
That only means he's timid, opportunistic, and cherry picks :P Can't go by score alone.
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wow
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The guy might be nice to y'all, I'm just adding my experience with him. Nothing against him, but he was rude, and nothing spectacular, especially considering at the time I was flying (this was 2-3 months ago) I totally SUCKED in a 190, to boot.
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Originally posted by Krusty
That only means he's timid, opportunistic, and cherry picks :P Can't go by score alone.
Translation: He flies with an E advantage as much as possible, picks his targets carefully, and blindsides anyone that isn't paying attention to whats going on around them.
Sounds smart to me. He's flying that thing like it was ment to be flown, BnZ.
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what kind of training?
learning the TnB envelope? find a good pony guy wqho knows his stuff and go to the DA.
learning tactics? find a good pony guy and wing up with him.
learning SA? find a good pony guy and use /.join for some sorties.
learning gunnery? sheesh... practice practice practice.
learning BnZ? find a good, aggressive, yet semi-timid pony guy.
learning E-fighting? find a good, smart, aggressive pony guy.
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Erm... the P51 is anything BUT a bnz fighter. BNZ fighters need to kill in a snapshot, which 50cals cannot. bnz fighters do what they do because the only advantage they might have is firepower and diving speed, while the pony can turn VERY well to boot.
P51 is not a bnz plane. While you might play at it, it's stupid because you can't kill with a snapshot, you have to get in and fight to get the kill.
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Casper
I fly the P-51D... occasionally... What times and dates are you looking for to do training?
There are several guys in the 412th FS that are quite good and can probably help you out some as well.
We fly Rooks
Also, check our website at http://www.brauncomustangs.org . A lot of the training information is old, but most still applies to the current AHII version of the P-51D.
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Hey, dont be too rude with a guy asking for training! And dont be too rude with grmrpr as well! ;)
P.S.: Krusty, whats your real nickname when you play?
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The folowing are skilled P51 dweepilots, they nail me anytime i meet them, :)
Cobra, SkatSr,GrmRpr, crowMAW,......
ps. Casper , are same guy from"Casper island" map?
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Originally posted by Krusty
Erm... the P51 is anything BUT a bnz fighter. BNZ fighters need to kill in a snapshot, which 50cals cannot. bnz fighters do what they do because the only advantage they might have is firepower and diving speed, while the pony can turn VERY well to boot.
P51 is not a bnz plane. While you might play at it, it's stupid because you can't kill with a snapshot, you have to get in and fight to get the kill.
you are on crack.
You have to learn to shoot with 50 cals before you can become successful with a 51. Aim for small parts, wing tips, tails, cockpits. Dont just shoot at a plane to hope in the off chance of something coming off.
Statements like this irk me. They give a new player a completely false idea of the way things are. Because you have poor success with the 51's 50 cals, doesnt mean they aren't any good.
The 51 is one of the best BnZ fighters in the game. If not THE best. There is nothing I fear when im flying it. Not only is it a great BnZ fighter, it stall fights great, turns great and is just a bad ass, plane.
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Right with morph on this one. Check out the 'Runstang' video for some inspiration, I know it got me to hop in one and give it a try. Who was that flying for that video, was it you morpheus? Regardless, it was insipiring :)
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GrmRpr and crowMAW are the main 2 that come to mind for me.
Well the only time I fought him repeatedly 1 on 1 in the MA, he was in a p51 I was in a 190a5. We did a couple of merges and he was doing the lame shoot-in-the-face and extend routine, so I obliged in a vertical HO and killed him. I had fun nonetheless, so I PMed him a salute and a "good fight" to which he replied "Nice HO dweeb!". After that he was more timid in his p51 as we kept meeting 1v1. He usually had more and more alt every time, in the course of about 5 engagements.
So you HO as well.... I'll remember that when I am in my 110! :noid
That only means he's timid, opportunistic, and cherry picks :P Can't go by score alone.
See what Hornet33 said....
Erm... the P51 is anything BUT a bnz fighter. BNZ fighters need to kill in a snapshot, which 50cals cannot. bnz fighters do what they do because the only advantage they might have is firepower and diving speed, while the pony can turn VERY well to boot.
You can't? :O Well you better go let crowMAW know that as he has done that alot, I think he got me 4 times in under 20 minutes..... all one quick pass and then I was sitting in the tower drinking some tea! :aok And with it 'turning' so well, yes it does turn well... but I am not taking it on the deck to screw with a Spit or Niki... I would keep it fast and do one of those snapshot thingy's.
P.S.: Krusty, whats your real nickname when you play?
He won't tell us that... it will let the cat out of the bag.... :rolleyes:
Funny, a guy ask for help on the 51D and you go all stupid on us. Now either you know this stuff cause your an expert or your not the brightest crayon in the box...more of that ugly green that no one ever uses. :rofl Tip: Think.... Think again.... then type.
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The game is heavily skewed towards cannon-armed planes, which is one reason P51's tend to be more timid.
General SA kinds of things you can learn in any plane. The Fw's, P51's, F4U's all are flown pretty much the same way, so the same lessons apply to all.
There are fine points to each plane, though ... which is what I'm guessing Casper was after as far as the P51. Finding out what the envelope really is.
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the pony can do it all, IMO, besides the PJ its the all around uberist ride out there, especially if you like to land kills. And after awhile of playing you'll get used to the 6 ea .50 cals and be able to kill ppl with 1/2 to 1 second bursts like Morpheus was saying you have to actually aim with MG's, instead of just hitting the plane anywhere with a cannon... Oh and BTW I have had some excellent stall fights and turn fights vs. GrmRpr in pony's, he is a good pony stick, so is skatsr... don't let anyone tell ya that the pony sux at stall fighting or turn fighting, it works just as good for me on the deck low and slow as it does at 20k cherry pickin ppl, and because its so fast if you get hit or need to RTB to land kills or whatever, you have the speed to exit the fight without 20+ ppl chasing ya down to land... Pony's are fun fun fun planes to fly :)
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Originally posted by Casper1
Is GrmRpr a good stick in the 51D? I dont recall seeing him in game, at least him shooting me down if he is Bish or Rook.
Thanks Morph.
The absolute best advice I can offer you is this.
Take the pony, grab 50% fuel and beat the living snot out of it in a furball. If you are using the stall limiter in the MA, turn it off. Turn fight with everything you see and expect to die often at first. This is going to do a few things for you. Its going to teach you how to fight each plane in the MA in the pony. Its going to teach you the limits of the 51. Before you know it you will be winning turn fights/stall fights/ect more and more.
The more flaps the better. You will learn when and when not to use them. This is something that cant be taught. Eventually you learn when and when not to grab a notch of flaps, or grab as many as you can. That is something you learn through flying in it and fighting in it.
Learning how to shoot in the pony is just as important as learning how to fight in it. Find a convergence setting that works well for you. I turn fight alot in the 51 so I keep all my guns set to 350. I dont shoot over 400. I aim for, like I said early, smaller, weaker parts... Wing tips, tail part, or If I have a clear shot, the cockpit. A nice quick burst at close range with 6x50's to the cockpit is a good way to kill or wound a pilot.
Believe me when I tell you. The 50cals are not useless. They are very effective. It is very important that you stick to firing at distances in which you have your convergence set at. If you do this, you are going to find that the 6x50s act more along the lines of a chainsaw, rather than a shotgun blast of bird shot.
Going to the DA or TA with someone is great. But its also a good idea to get a good feel for the plane you want to learn before hand. This will give you a good place from which you can use to start learning in the DA or TA.
If I am on line, and not too busy, I will be happy to take a few minutes and go to the DA to help you. Shane is also good in the pony. He's a dirt bag in the MA :D but is not such a bad guy in the DA. I've had some pretty fun 51 fights among others, with him in the past.
Right with morph on this one. Check out the 'Runstang' video for some inspiration, I know it got me to hop in one and give it a try. Who was that flying for that video, was it you morpheus? Regardless, it was insipiring
Yeah, i made that film from a 51 sortie one night a while back. Glad you like it.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
The absolute best advice I can offer you is this.
Take the pony, grab 50% fuel and beat the living snot out of it in a furball. If you are using the stall limiter in the MA, turn it off. Turn fight with everything you see and expect to die often at first. This is going to do a few things for you. Its going to teach you how to fight each plane in the MA in the pony. Its going to teach you the limits of the 51. Before you know it you will be winning turn fights/stall fights/ect more and more.
The more flaps the better. You will learn when and when not to use them. This is something that cant be taught. Eventually you learn when and when not to grab a notch of flaps, or grab as many as you can. That is something you learn through flying in it and fighting in it.
Learning how to shoot in the pony is just as important as learning how to fight in it. Find a convergence setting that works well for you. I turn fight alot in the 51 so I keep all my guns set to 350. I dont shoot over 400. I aim for, like I said early, smaller, weaker parts... Wing tips, tail part, or If I have a clear shot, the cockpit. A nice quick burst at close range with 6x50's to the cockpit is a good way to kill or wound a pilot.
Believe me when I tell you. The 50cals are not useless. They are very effective. It is very important that you stick to firing at distances in which you have your convergence set at. If you do this, you are going to find that the 6x50s act more along the lines of a chainsaw, rather than a shotgun blast of bird shot.
Going to the DA or TA with someone is great. But its also a good idea to get a good feel for the plane you want to learn before hand. This will give you a good place from which you can use to start learning in the DA or TA.
If I am on line, and not too busy, I will be happy to take a few minutes and go to the DA to help you. Shane is also good in the pony. He's a dirt bag in the MA :D but is not such a bad guy in the DA. I've had some pretty fun 51 fights among others, with him in the past.
Yeah, i made that film from a 51 sortie one night a while back. Glad you like it.
I wouldn't go to TA for that... GrmRpr is a good stick ive had some very very good fights Pony V.s pony end up we both dying at the end of a fight.
Also might look up erebus aka cobra when he comes back maybe even skat
Im (a pony pilot but not the best!)
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Originally posted by ChristCAF
He won't tell us that... it will let the cat out of the bag....
Excuse me, YOU never asked. You implied that I had no account, as did Furball or Fubar (one of those F-names), and neither bothered to ask me, despite me being online at the same time as both of you various times. Hell I've been in the same sector typing/talking with Furby/Fubs (whoever it was) and he still didn't see my VERY OBVIOUS game ID. Gatt asked me directly, simply, and wasn't a jerk about it, so he will get a nice PM.
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As for the P51 and BNZ -- BNZ by its nature is high-speed slashing attacks, usually with little turning and from a high advantage. The high speed and the lack of turning/latching onto a target usually requires cannon-armed plane to make the snapshot do any damage. Having said that, you CAN BNZ in it (the performance of the plane very much lends itself to this -- it can dive well and has a high speed) but for a true BNZ it lacks in the instant-snapshot-damage department. Mind you I respect the plane, but it's not what I'd truly call BNZ. More like a jack of all trades, like an f4u or a la7.
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Originally posted by Krusty
As for the P51 and BNZ -- BNZ by its nature is high-speed slashing attacks, usually with little turning and from a high advantage. The high speed and the lack of turning/latching onto a target usually requires cannon-armed plane to make the snapshot do any damage. Having said that, you CAN BNZ in it (the performance of the plane very much lends itself to this -- it can dive well and has a high speed) but for a true BNZ it lacks in the instant-snapshot-damage department. Mind you I respect the plane, but it's not what I'd truly call BNZ. More like a jack of all trades, like an f4u or a la7.
In other words.....
Originally posted by Krusty
I find it easier for me to kill other planes in a plane that has cannons there for I peronally dont consider the P51 to be a good plane to BnZ with.
La7 is anything but a "jack of all trades". It has speed and fairly good manuverability. In terms of a fighter, it has its Niche in life. And a very small one at that.
Saying the P51 is even close to being on par with an La7 is ludicrous.
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the pony has excelent over the nose visibility which allows some great high angle deflection shots, the la7 and corsair are nicely armed but are tougher to see over the nose which really affects your performance in snap shots, canons make up for alot but the pony is great once you learn to pour the shots into their canopy and exploit its great visibility.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
La7 is anything but a "jack of all trades". It has speed and fairly good manuverability. In terms of a fighter, it has its Niche in life. And a very small one at that.
The La-7 has a short range, can't carry worthwhile ord, and as I recall doesn't do all that well above 20K or at very high dive speeds. It's great for getting up in a hurry to intercept low bombers or porkdiots, it's great for getting in and out of a nearby furball, it's great for defensive CAP, it's great for 1-way porking missions.
Once you need to travel more than a sector from home base (and, like, get home again), or carry ord, the shortcomings of the La7 become pretty apparent. And if you don't mind giving up a little speed and firepower, the La5 is a better ride.
The P51 can do just about everything well, save for taking down bombers and getting to altitude really quickly ("quick" as defined by the Spit16 or La7 or Yak9).
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Dood, the P-51D is a super-EZmode plane, if you cant kill in that you cant kill in anything.
The MOST important thing, and one that most people miss with .50 cal planes, is gun convergence. When you fly, notice when you pull the trigger, then set your convergence to that. Most people have their convergence WAY too far out. It should not under any circumstances be more than 400, and 300-250 is preferable.
If you hit a target AT your convergence point, you will kill it and stop getting assists.
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IMO, if you want to turn your 51 missions from a 1 kill 3 assist mission, to a 4 kill mission, it sounds like you need to brush up on your 50cal gunnery. Check your convergence - i prefer mine all at 350. I think from 300-350 would be a workable range.
If you feel its not your gunnery, then all the same ACM manuevers apply to the P51 as to any other plane, you just need to get to know how they apply to the P51 and how they 'feel'. No-one can you show you this, its something you have to learn yourself though repetition and practice. Spend a complete tour flying nothing but the P51-D and you will start to get the 'feel' of it. There is no magic bullet someone can show you in the TA to make you a uber-pony stick.
Things you should know and should allready know: P51-D has a very average sustained climb rate (its main weakness); combat flaps are you best friend (2-3 notches at times. 1 notch even at very high speeds); Acceleration is fairly average (another weaknes). WEP dont last very long compared to german hardware. Take 50% & DTs, drop 1 on take off, drop the other when your ready to fight. P51-D increases its advantages over most planes above 15k, the P51-B rules above 25K (If your ever up that high). Turn combat trim off and learn manual trimming. The 51s speed allows you to decide when to fight and when not to (escp high up).
Speaking of "king of assists" - fly the P51-B. Its the assist-master!
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Sketch...thanks for the kudos. :)
I'm not the best pony pilot by far...I've seen Stang do some stuff in that plane that would dislocate your jaw from dropping open so fast. But of course Stang can do that in about anything. (want you to show me how to fly that F4U4 sometime, Stang)
Casper...here is a link to our ride today...sorry that tree made it a short ride. :D Aslo, there are some other BnZ vids in the pony. Hope you can see the bullets when I fire in the vids since you couldn't in the ride-along.
Casper1.zip (http://www.pace3.com/AH/Casper1.zip)
I don't have a problem with .50cals and BnZ (ask Rauml...hehehe). Here is a great BnZ vid in an F6F.
CV_at_a22.zip (http://www.pace3.com/AH/CV_at_a22.zip)
Convergence is key to .50cals...personally I like 400 and I start shooting at 600. But that is just me.
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All - thanks for the tips via the BBS. It does help.
I believe that my main problem is maintaining E when BnZ'ing, when to use and when not to use combat flaps, and Gunnery (of course).
I have been flying the 51D alot lately, and it is a great plane, i can tell...I just have trouble getting alot out of it. It seems I cant 'get over the hump' in it's learning curve.
Last night, I was 12-13K headed to A4 (we had V3 at the time), 50% fuel, no ords. I ended up finding an assortment of cannon-planes killing GVs at the spawn (IL2s, LA7s, Spit16's, NIKs). I was 1 on about 7 or 8, with some Flak help from the GV's still alive at the spawn. I orbited once while decreasing alt and picking up speed, picked an IL2 starting a guns run, and began to drop on him. He ended his run, pulled up, and I was about 800 out. He saw me and started a steep climibing right turn, which I lagged a tiny bit, then led into to 'chainsaw' a wing. I got a bunch of hits along his fuselage and wing, but didnt bring him down. I started shooting about 600 and stopped around 300. My convergence is set to 375. I may decrease this.
After this run, I pulled up to about 8K with approx 200MPH, and came back down, looking for a target of opportunity. I found an LA7 strafing GVs, so I came onto him, and overshot. By this time, I had their attention. On my climb out, a Spit 16 that was prevbiously low and slow on the deck went UberSpit and got on my 6. After my overshot on the LA7 - I was at about 450MPH and climbing. The spit 16 CAUGHT ME at about 5-6K and took me out. Cursing followed. I hate the Spit16!
Anyways...I didnt bring down the IL2 b/c of gunnery, obviously blew too much E on the overshot of the LA7, and couldnt get rid of the Spit16 in a climb.
Morph - I may take you up on a few 51D sessions. crowMAW - thanks for the vids and the ride last night. Maybe we can wing up sometime. Others, I may come looking for help.
I do appreciate it! Krusty - its OK man!
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sounds to me that you misjudged the e-state of the spit 16. A spit with a full head of steam will zoom climb quite nicely. Still i never worry about spitfires not even 14s. I always take out the fast planes first (la7s, yaks, tiffies, 190d, 51s), then its simple enough to disengage any spits trying to catch you; gain some sep and speed convert it to alt, reverse and pick it off. Didnt your mummy always tell you not to chase faster planes all by yourself???
Anyways, seems to me your issue with the scenario described is you had an incomplete or incorrect SA picture (eg you misjudged the spudfires E state). As for the IL2, i believe they had a reputation for being able to soak up a lot of damage and keep going. Also i would never have started out on the IL2, i would have ignored it till all the other more dangerous fighters had been taken out. I think i would have tried ascertain the plane which posed the most threat and gone for that - be that the spit with huge E, or the LA7 which is faster than the p51 on the deck.
Anyways, thats just me, YMMV. OTOH, we all do have some really rotten sorties where everything just seems to go wrong...
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CrowMAW- You said you have your convergence set at 600, what distance do most of your kills happen at?
JMFJ
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better go back and read again.
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rgr morph thank you
crowMAW- let me rephrase that you set your convergance at 400, start shooting at 600, what distance do most of your kills occur at?
JMFJ
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i find i can stall fight in almost all the US fighters iv beaten many with p47s p40s f4us p51bs p38s i preferd the F4U-1 i preferd to be a energy fighter not a boring boom zoomer and i would turnfight almost anything execpt spits niks the true turn fighters
i found boom zooming boring most of the time i liked to get above and use a ton of high yo yos ropes and try to saddle for a snapshot
the P51D can hold its own just fine but should not be put in stupid turnfights with spitfires and niks were it does not belong
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Originally posted by Krusty
Excuse me, YOU never asked. You implied that I had no account, as did Furball or Fubar (one of those F-names), and neither bothered to ask me, despite me being online at the same time as both of you various times. Hell I've been in the same sector typing/talking with Furby/Fubs (whoever it was) and he still didn't see my VERY OBVIOUS game ID. Gatt asked me directly, simply, and wasn't a jerk about it, so he will get a nice PM.
krusty1
i'm sorry. i really dont care that much. i have occasionally wanted to check your stats when you take your high and mighty stance and tell others how they should be flying. that is the only time i have asked.
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Originally posted by JMFJ
crowMAW- let me rephrase that you set your convergance at 400, start shooting at 600, what distance do most of your kills occur at?
I'm sorry...I don't know that I've ever looked at the d marker when they explode. I'm usually concentrating on aim at that point. And I'm sure there is lag anyway from when they actually die and when I see them blow up. I'm a pretty bad shot when it comes to aiming...so I start shooting earlier than I probably should and with tracers on so I can adjust my aim. Probably by the time I get my aim on target I've closed the d to be in the sweet spot of convergence.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
you are on crack.
You have to learn to shoot with 50 cals before you can become successful with a 51. Aim for small parts, wing tips, tails, cockpits. Dont just shoot at a plane to hope in the off chance of something coming off.
Statements like this irk me. They give a new player a completely false idea of the way things are. Because you have poor success with the 51's 50 cals, doesnt mean they aren't any good.
The 51 is one of the best BnZ fighters in the game. If not THE best. There is nothing I fear when im flying it. Not only is it a great BnZ fighter, it stall fights great, turns great and is just a bad ass, plane.
Relax irk boy! ;) (Remember the training in the Rumble Map in the ponys long agao?)
Seriously Krusty. Morph has a point here. Albeit kinda subliminal due to his irkyness. The point is this. I too have been picked apart by crafty 51D pilots. The key word being "Picked". A BnZ extraordinaire the Pony is. But i usually take multiple passes to bring a bandit down in the role. Little peck here..little peck there. Unless of course you find yerself hangin out like the sunday laundry at the stalled apex of a rope. At which time, the now reversed pony is going to cut you into teeny peices.
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had some sweet sorties the other day.
Had two 4 kill jobs and two 3 kill jobs. Seems more than anything, it was my gunnery causing the problems...i am using 350 Convergence and usually ripping the baddies to shreds...