Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: muffdvr on January 03, 2006, 02:19:36 AM
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Hey don't get me wrong I like the different gv's Aces has to offer, but we do need some more. We could use a german half track just like the M3, but this also had the war time option of rocket/mortor launcher( Stuka Fuz).
Maybe a Panther type G, King Tiger, Sturm panzer. Or even Changing the desin of the flak panzer that actually has two cannons insted of one.
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All the tanks are German and Russian as it is, the allies just have the support vehicles.
Let's get a Sherman in here. Or how about British or Japanese tanks? Those would be very useful once TOD goes to the Pacific.
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I think we would benefit more from different types of vehicles fulfilling differing roles.................... before we worry about which countries vehicles are being represented appropriatly.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Japanese tanks?
:rofl
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japanese tanks were some of the worst in WWII, right next to the italian tanks.
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Originally posted by Saxman
snip....Japanese tanks? ....snip
If you want the Japanese tank experience, up an M8 and leave it in first gear.....
:lol
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Actually I think the US 37mm was superior to the IJA tank guns which even though some were as large as 47mm they were short barrel and low muzzle velocity. The Italians should be glad the IJA made such poor tanks, otherwise they would be in solid control of "worst tanks of WWII". :)
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Hey, it's for immersiveness. :p
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I like to see the sherman, or a british tank, and maybe an Axis tank the sherman or a british tanks could match. People say the sherman would be bad for AH, I dont think it will. Me and my friends had M8s (5 total) and we disabled a Tiger tank, and didnt loose a single guy until after we disabled him, then we lost 2, rest keep shooting at them tell another guy with a tiger came and finished the job. If we had 5 shermans, that be a different story. We could have disabled his turret, engine, or even kill it.
In the movie band of brothers, the part were they jump into Holland and they meet up with the british armor, what was that british tank. There were like 5 shermans and like 3 of these other tanks, with like big round bolts all over it. That be a great addition to.
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Originally posted by Simaril
If you want the Japanese tank experience, up an M8 and leave it in first gear.....
:lol
And only use HE rounds.
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I understand one Japanese tank had a high velocity 47mm cannon on it that would outperform the M-8's 37mm. Other than that, yeah.
Oddly, the largest tank assault in the Pacific Theater was a Japanese counter attack on a US position using about 40 tanks. Surprised the heck out of us and punched a ways in, but not far enough. We held and I think the Japanese lost 100%, or nearly that, of the tanks.
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Originally posted by Klum25th
In the movie band of brothers, the part were they jump into Holland and they meet up with the british armor, what was that british tank. There were like 5 shermans and like 3 of these other tanks, with like big round bolts all over it. That be a great addition to.
I believe they were Cromwells
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Originally posted by muffdvr
... Or even Changing the desin of the flak panzer that actually has two cannons insted of one.
You're referring to the Wirbelwind ... basically the same as the Ostie but with quad 20mm's ... which could make vultching a lot more hazardous than a single 37mm does, but you'd have to make the turret more vulnerable to .50cal fire to keep some balance (mainly so that just about any decent plane stood a chance of killing the gun crew).
Or you mean the US M19, which had dual 40mm Bofors guns. The turret had very little armor and in fact the ammo cannisters were stored on the exterior, so I imagine a few 20mm hits and this puppy would go boom. Still, it fired 40mm shells at 240 rpm - that's a lot of lead - and if it's modeled as fused, well, hehe ...
As for tanks, I actually like the T34 - it's nice and fast and I can zip over to a town and blow it up pretty effectively, and then scoot when the Panzers and Tigers come to save the day. Maybe the M36 Pershing for a new US tank - a perk-free vehicle to go Tiger hunting with ... though it'd have crap for armor, it would have to manouever for the shot and score hits before the Tiger could traverse ... which is how tank destroyers had to operate for real.
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DrKGonZo gets the prize:aok
Yes it is the Wirbelwind, my all time favorite AA veh of WWII. Isn't she simply gorgous!!
I have been requesting this veh be added to AH since I first started playing yrs ago.
The only thing I don't agree with is "but you'd have to make the turret more vulnerable to .50cal fire to keep some balance (mainly so that just about any decent plane stood a chance of killing the gun crew)"
The reason I don't agree is, the Osty turret is already extremely easy to disable. Furthermore, the AA guns of AH are already at a HUGE disadvantage it isn't even funny. The amount of fire needed to bring down a plane traveling at high speed or from a dive is ungodly. It is nearly impossible to kill the typical "field porker" with just a few Osties and or field guns.
The attacking plane or planes have all the advantage, they can fire mutipule rockets, drop numorus bombs, shoot many more rounds and are moving (usually) at high speeds.
The ground gun or Flak, has only ONE gun, is stationary and has no where near the rate of fire of a plane armmed with 4-20mils, or 8-50's
(http://membres.lycos.fr/fass3d/rnl/Wirbelwind.jpg)
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My point mainly on vulnerability is (and has always been) that right now only cannons stand a chance to disable AAA. And while forged steel stands up well to .50 cal fire, human beings and ammo cases do not. With a Wirbelwind, quad-20's makes for a pretty deadly (albeit close range) hail of fire - it would be the dominant GV - and if only cannon-armed planes could take them out then you'd see an even stronger shift in the MA away from planes without cannons.
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good, more 190 and 110 pilots and less niki and pony dweebs. mabey even an IL-2 every now and again.
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I think any wirbelwind should be perked...........
Quad 20's will mean any attack ac attemting to take them out is pretty much toast.............
They will be abused....sustained 20mm fire will take out a panzer so we will have mass wirbelwinds attempting close quarter fighting in the woods......... etc
also they will be town killers and field cappers extra-odinaire.
Plus I dont think a single 4 x 20 wirbelwind set a track out side of German soil....... or at least very few.
Once we have shed all stuff on the ground of any icon..my preference would be for
A truck with varying deployable artilary
Self propelled heavy artilary
Tank killer
Jeep
Then I would like options like camo flage netting and the ability to "dig in" to a position.
Then I would worry about balancing the nation sets...........
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us/brit tanks
m4a3e2/3 jumbo, up armored w/76mm gun, service 1944
m4 brit firefly, 76mm gun, service 1944
m36 tank destroyer, 90mm gun,service 1943
m18 fast tank destroyer,76mm gun, service 1943
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Yeah ... you'd need to perk the Wirbie some amount ... it'd go through towns like a blow torch through toilet paper.
The M19 could be more interesting in that it should be capable of decent airburst fire and have better range than an Ostie. Which could be a good counter to the NOE heavy bombers and pork-running twits. You could throw up 240 rpm of airburst fire into the path of the porker and that could sting a little.
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Dok:
"With a Wirbelwind, quad-20's makes for a pretty deadly (albeit close range) hail of fire"
I'll agree, but what is the Nik, Tiff, Temp, 110 and many others armed with?
If I'm not mistaken, It's (you guessed it) 4 - 20mm cannons AND bombs!!
I would agree that it might need to be perked (a little) and yes it throws up a lot of lead. However, the Wirbelwind has only 20 round magazines, they empty quite quickly.
With a fully-rotating polygonal-shaped turret, the Wirbelwind was far superior to the Möbelwagen. The turret, though open-topped, at least afforded the crew some protectiom when it was in action. The quadruple 20mm gun arrangement was inefficient. Thus, after 105 had been produced (some say only 86), production effort was shifted to the Ostwind. The Ostwind carried a single 37mm gun instead of the 20mm Flakvierling. By the time it went into service, the war was almost over, and thus only 43 were manufactured. These few vehicles did play a role in the development of post-war anti-aircraft tanks like the Gepard
The US M19 might also be a nice addition, the twin 40mm would be a little more effective against med-alt bombers and attack A/C.
(http://www.battletanks.com/images/M19_GMC.jpg)
Also maybe some consideration for something a little more heavy. We do have the T-34 and Tiger tank, but they cant be used as a AA battery.
The Flak 36 would be perfect IMO
(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal4/3501-3600/gal3564_famoFlak36_Braman/03t.jpg)
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My concern about Wirbies would not be the single-use case. But the "clowns rolling out of the midget car" circus effect you see at fields being vultched. Half a dozen Wirbies would be pretty nuts. My concern would be it'd tip the game more towards GV's as the means of projecting power.
The M19 is still a more interesting case. Mobile, not all that well armored, but it would have the kind of stand-off lethality that the 20mm and 37mm AAA we now have don't. It "should" be able to defend against the NOE bombers and porkers. You wouldn't want to roll it out while your field is being vultched, just not that well armored. But as part of an overall field defense and as a way to quickly defend against rear-area porkers ... it'd do nicely.
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anyone have any idea on how many rounds a Wirbelwind carries? Another thing to think about too is that the rapid fire of the wirbelwind means that it is CONSTANTLY being reloaded! So, sustained fire isn't necessarily the case. Maybe if they modeled that, the vehicle could be used in the MA.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
My concern about Wirbies would not be the single-use case. But the "clowns rolling out of the midget car" circus effect you see at fields being vultched. Half a dozen Wirbies would be pretty nuts. My concern would be it'd tip the game more towards GV's as the means of projecting power.
The M19 is still a more interesting case. Mobile, not all that well armored, but it would have the kind of stand-off lethality that the 20mm and 37mm AAA we now have don't. It "should" be able to defend against the NOE bombers and porkers.
Would they not take out the VH and ack and vulch to their hearts content like the do now? :D
The M-19 looks like it would be fun, BUT doesn't AH do some tranlation thing at about 2500 out where as the aircraft aren't where they look to be? You used to see the flippy bombers at that range before the last update and smoothing code.
I have never hit an aircraft beyond 2500 with an Osti though I have broke a couple at 2K and I do have more than a few hours in an Osti. :cry
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VH's are left up a lot more than you'd expect. So many MA flyers are more interested in vultching to pad their scores and assume that "the other guy" brought the 1000-pounders ... or the 110G.
The single 37mm field gun or Ostie just isn't enough to take out a flight of low-alt B17's or Lancs. Best I've managed is getting 2-of-3, but not before they puked out some bombs.
And for rear area bases where you're dealing with low-alt milk runners, the M19 would let you put up a cloud of fire in their path - assuming that airburst was modelled, of course. In which case the fuzziness around d2500 isn't as big an issue.
I like the concept of modelling the reload issues with such a rapid fire weapon. The feed mechanism on an M19 allows pretty much constant fire, but at some point the crew needs to stop and get a new ammo cannister open or clear out the shell casings so they can get to the gun to load it.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
anyone have any idea on how many rounds a Wirbelwind carries? Another thing to think about too is that the rapid fire of the wirbelwind means that it is CONSTANTLY being reloaded! So, sustained fire isn't necessarily the case. Maybe if they modeled that, the vehicle could be used in the MA.
The Wirbelwind carried 3200 rounds, the 4 guns each have a 20 round magazine. Each gun will empty it's magazine in 7 seconds.
DoK:
"But the "clowns rolling out of the midget car" circus effect you see at fields being vultched."
I don't quite get what your saying?
Let me state for the record, I have always asked for the Wirbelwind and will continue until HTC puts it in the game. I honestly believe the game would benefit from such a vehicle along with other AA gun platforms.
And NO I don't want AH to be a ground game, it will always lean towards WW2 A/C. However some people including myself enjoy a lot of different aspects of the game other than flying around all day.
I'm sure people would use it to take a city down or even camp a spawn with it once in a while, but lets face facts. We already have bombers dropping 30+ bombs at 100' off the deck just to kill a target like a VH or one Osty. (trust me on this one)
We have almost nothing to slow up or stop the average "field porker", heck I porked 3 fields last night in my Tiffy and I'm about one of the worst pilots in the game. Yes, the field ack was up, but it's pretty inaccurate at best and the 3 Osties on the field all missed.
Reason why is, hitting a dive bombing or very fast moving target is extremely hard. This is why the carriers in the Pacific that were armed with the 40mm Bofors guns went to fuzed rounds. It took (on average) 2400 rounds to bring down one Kamakaze, and these are 40mm rounds!!
Don't get me wrong there are some superb Osty guys in the game, but keep in mind it takes approx 5 Ostwinds per target to be even remotely effective. This is without the B24's dropping 30 bombs on your head or the dive bombing B26's.
So I guess when I hear things like "it might tip the scales in favor of the GV's" I have to whole heartedly disagree.
The planes still have all the advantage over the GV's we have now, in guns, bombs, speed, evasives and numbers.
My 2 cents
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
VH's are left up a lot more than you'd expect. So many MA flyers are more interested in vultching to pad their scores and assume that "the other guy" brought the 1000-pounders ... or the 110G.
The single 37mm field gun or Ostie just isn't enough to take out a flight of low-alt B17's or Lancs. Best I've managed is getting 2-of-3, but not before they puked out some bombs.
VH's usually aren't left up where I've been unless there is a pretty good fighter defense which is usually lacking at the VH bases especially. Quite often on a GV base the ONLY air defense is ground based. At least until the low level Lancs show up.
You are quite right about the Osti's and 37mm. I don't think I have killed a whole flight of bombers either. Lord knows there is enough to practice on.