Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on April 17, 2001, 09:30:00 AM
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North Korean experience (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=90000453)
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http://www.juche-koreaonline.com/ (http://www.juche-koreaonline.com/)
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Certainly a contrast in study, your North Korean webpage, and first eye-witness accounts.
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Ripsnort, turn on your mind.
That Juche page is a great document. I think that every modern communist must be sent to North Korea for at least half-year, just to see what he is working for...
What really surprises me is that as far as I understood - many people in the West believe in what they see there.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Oooh, Boroda, you poor soul... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Boroda, your kidding right?
Zippatuh
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Geee there's no mention of the millions of people that were murdered by communist in the 20th century.
Hey Boroda, how about your boy Stalin! He did his part to add to the list of MILLIONS of people MURDERED by communist. Bet your real proud of that, that is if you even know it happened...
Udie
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Udie,
Don't you know Stalin and his purges were a product of the decadent western evil mind. Just ask baroda. He'll be happy to help you learn "correct thought" and you can march in line with him on the "glorious road" to world domination. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Mav
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Boroda has a point though, how to determine if you are being fed propaganda (which may be exagerated facts) or the truth or something else?
I have many korean friends, I've been to Korea (south) and my impressions from that (from what i've heard them say about the north) is almost the same impressions I read of how it was East of the Berlin Wall. Who are bound to have a more accurate view on north korea? some rating-craving idiot at CNN or NBC with little or no insight on the culture he's talking about (as its all biased and contrasted with the "ideal" US capitalistic lifestile) or a person FROM Korea that has insight on his/her own culture and can tell you a much better comparison (and possibly almost accurate) between north and south korea?
Communism is phasing out now, its not economically sustainable in the modern world. Getting all riled up about stuff that is visibly going down wont help your medical bills go down.
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I dunno about your logic Tac. I've been to the Republic of Cyprus, but not the occupied northern part (the so-called Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus). To hear the (Greek) Cypriots talk about it, it sounds pretty dismal. But I left with much more respect for the so-called TRNC then what I came with.
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Rip where is your spirit of true comradery? Don't you want to belong to the winning side of history? Are you a follower of the evil practices of flunkeyism and factional strife?
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Next CNN will be telling me those Hyundai came from NORTH korea.
My father spent some time as a guest of the north Koreans. I tend to belive his accounts.
BTW. Boroda. Reading the works of Orwell should be required of all aspiring communists
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 04-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 04-18-2001).]
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Amazing!
How can you dare to think that a person who was born in USSR will EVER believe North Korean propaganda!?
Please read what I posted carefully.
Looks like many people here will argue with whatever I'll say.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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They took what you wrote completely the wrong way, Boroda. I read your statement as being one of an anti-communist nature.
A very telling insight into the closed-mindedness of a few people on this BB. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Russians = communists?
I was fortunate enought to visit Leningrad and Moscow in 1990, as a kid. There is no way on earth that those people wanted to live under that system. You saw it on TV - I saw it first hand and it wasn't a pretty sight.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-18-2001).]
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Dowding, it isn't the 'close mindness' that I sometimes see bleed thru your posts as well, as much as it is the translation.
Ripsnort, turn on your mind.
That Juche page is a great document. I think that every modern communist must be sent to North Korea for at least
half-year, just to see what he is working for...
Translation (since no smiley attached)...I support the modern day communists in N.K. and more communists should go there to learn.
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I'll have to work on my English...
From all "communist" countries only DPRK remains a bonehead isolationist totalitarian regime. It have always been the most skrewed-up country, maybe not as bad a Albania, but they didn't break down after their leader died.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Thks for clarification Boroda. Whew, you had me worried. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Now, after I finished my Korean nodle soup (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) - let me tell you some impressions about North Koreans.
Back in 80-s it was very easy to recognise Koreans in the streets: they always walked in groups, wore uniformed khaki closes with forage caps and had the same pins with Kim Ir Sen.
The only Korean production sold in Moscow was soy sauce, and it was the best soy sauce I ever tasted.
In school we were told that Koreans are our allies, but their understanding of socialism is extreme: they always wear uniforms, live in barraks and have to study Kim Ir Sen's works for 2 hours every day.
One of my friends witnessed a funny story when he studied in Foreign Relations Institute (it prepares people for Diplomatic corps). In dormitroys foreign and Soviet students lived together, to study languages faster. So, one of the Russians asked a Korean student - does he wake up at 6 AM, turn on the wall radio and listen to Soviet anthem, wearing his full dress? Nice joke, but not for North Koreans. The Korean guy took it seriously and after a few weeks went to the Rector's office and reported that many Soviet students DON'T LISTEN TO AN ANTHEM AT 6 AM!!! Later he couldn't recognize the joker, maybe because all Russians look alike to Koreans...
Now I often send some computer-related goods to Kurgan, from Yaroslavl railroad station. I usually see "Rossiya" train (Moscow-Vladivostok), with a North Korean car that goes directly to Pyongyang. It looks extremely old, rusty and dirty, especially compared to shiny tricolor "Rossiya" cars. Conductors wear grey uniforms with usual Kim Ir Sen pins, passangers wear leather jackets and other "civilian" clothes, dut they all look like middle-aged gangsters or retired officers. The car is almost empty, no more then 5-8 passangers, but it's still there every 2 days. AFAIK Moscow-Pyongyang is the world longest railroad journey: 8 days 22 hours...
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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As a visitor you will also be
expected to pay your respects to
President Kim Il Sung by laying
down a flower.
Boroda is right, it is a great document.
BTW.
(http://members.home.net/dinger666/black/prkimil.JPG)
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"Reading the works of Orwell should be required of all aspiring communists"
Bzzzzt..wrong...1984 is not an anti-communistic book..it's an anti-fascism book.
Orwell was a socialist, FYI.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
www.56thfightergroup.org (http://www.56thfightergroup.org)
This is Yardstick, follow me"
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Bzzzzt.. There is no difference for the average man on the street.
"Orwell was a socialist, FYI." That is why I choose him for my suggestion. He made me stop and think about our system. His work is bound to have the same effect on a would be communist.
The Animal Farm. Would be the one I would suggest.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 04-18-2001).]
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Ripsnort, I've never thought Boroda a communist, so I saw it the way it was meant to be seen. But the 'closed-mindedness' line was meant to be tongue in cheek - hence the cheeky 'poke tongue out of mouth' thing.
Animal farm is an overtly anti Russian Soviet book. But 1984 carries a more general anti-totalitarian regime message - it seems to me to show parts of fascism and communism - the similarities of the two are laid bare.
Read a book on Stalin and his method of beating his enemies via the 'show trials':
1) First you the arrest the victim on some spurious non-existant charge
2) Have a very public trial in which supposed friends eagerly decry the individual as a traitor and/or deviant (explained later)
3) Despite the huge amount of evidence against the defendant (from which it is 'obvious' he/she hates Stalin), Joseph pardons the individual - in his unbounded generosity.
4) The recently rehabilitated 'deviant' is desperate to prove his/her loyalty and testifies against friends/family in other show trials (see point 2)
5) When the defendants usefulness is exhausted, another trial is set-up showing how Stalin's generosity was betrayed, and this time the 'traitor' receives a bullet to his head somewhere in the Lubyanka, or if they are particularly unlucky, they are sent to some god-awful prison camp.
This is very similar to the way the two main characters in 1984 end up betraying each other to supposedly save themselves, and in doing so declare their love for Big Brother. They are seemingly rehabilitated, but their fate is sealed.
That's the way I've always seen it, anyway.
Daff, Orwell is definitely a socialist (read 'Down and out in London and Paris'), but that does not mean he would support communism (at least in the Soviet vision).
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"communism (at least in the Soviet vision)."
But communism in the Soviet/Chinese/Cuban version got absolutly nothing to do with communism...that would be the same as calling the crusades for christian and claim that all christians are like that.
Orwell had to deal will that kind of communism while fighting in the Spanish Civil War...this is very much very his hatred againts stalinism & fascim comes from.
(He was fighting fascism on the front, while trying to keep the stalinists from backstabbing him).
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
www.56thfightergroup.org (http://www.56thfightergroup.org)
This is Yardstick, follow me"
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The beauty of the American version of democracy leyes in freedom of speech. This can be demonstrated by a seemingly unimportant incident that occurred back in the 70,s.
The President of the United states went on TV, announced that there was a swine flu epidemic headed our way. He got a vaccination on screen, and urged all Americans to do the same. The American people ignored him en mass. We were confident that should an actual outbreak occur, it would be reported on. It is impossible to imagine this happening in a communist country.
The rest of the world see,s the President as a extremely powerful individual. We see him as a guy we hired to do a job. And if we don't like his work, we will can his ass.
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Communism: Everyone thinks "They" can get it to work. You see the end results.
Its like my golf game, works in theory, but not in practice.
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Rip, that's why I think that it's impossible to build it according to Marx and Lenin.
I hope it will happen after we'll have eternal energy sourses like thermonuclear reactors, cheap nanodevices and other things that will have serious influence on society and human way of thinking. But NOT after any kind of revolution or other violence.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Boroda - That's EXACTLY how I've always seen a successful communist state. Infinite resources would solve many problems a communist state has in the present climate. But infinite resources and a major shift in human nature are going to be very hard to find.
Easymo, you don't have a monopoly on Democracy. In this country, we elect a party, and if that party is not seen to be doing its job, we sling it out. Which is exactly what happened in 1997 with the Conservatives. It was very funny to watch those stalwarts of Conservatism lose their seats in parliament - democracy in action. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-19-2001).]
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I see the "Big Three" like this:
Socialism:Expect high taxes so big brother can educate,medicate, feed, give you a job, but expect lower medical treatment, limited freedom(own a house? Forget it, taxes too high) etc. etc.
Communism:No private ownership except for very high ranking Gov't positions. Corruption runs deep. See Socialism
CapitalismPrivate ownership, freedom, but corruption runs so deep that socialism slowly becomes apparent.
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Dowding, unlimited resources combined with so-called "communist" goverment will probably NEVER lead to Communism. Communism means destruction of State, and I think destruction of State can happen only if government jobs will be not popular, or let me say "unprofitable". Another paradox (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ripsnort, I can advise you to read some popular books about scientific communism, at least to "know your enemy" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) You give three definitions that are quite different from the ones Marx made. From Marxist POV "your" Socialism and Capitalism are one social-economical formation, called Capitalism.
Reminds me of how I tried to explain Marx's definitions on Macroeconomics class in American high school (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Their textbook gave the same definitions that you said.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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You ever buy something that requires reading a lengthy manual and then build it to the manual? Then, when your finished, you've altered it slightly to 'get it to work' the way your common sense percieved it too?
That's what most of our political based social structures have become...bastardized versions. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (Note: Capitalism included!)
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http://english.hk.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/world/afp/article.html?s=hke/headlines/010419/world/afp/Russia_and_US_in_war_of_words_over_media_freedoms.html (http://english.hk.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/world/afp/article.html?s=hke/headlines/010419/world/afp/Russia_and_US_in_war_of_words_over_media_freedoms.html)
If I lived in Russia I'd be worried about the return of communism. I've read that the communist party is about to become the smallest party in the Duma. Hopefuly for you guys the new majority party wont bring back the "Pravda" type government controlled media. I hope you guys chose to stay free over there, but the stuff I read in the above article doesn't seem to point in that direction...
Udie
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"Easymo, you don't have a monopoly on Democracy"
Ya, but you have that whole Queen thing. Whats up with that.
We have queens also. But they have little in common with your royalty....except maybe the tiara
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<sigh> I've lost count of how many times I've explained that the Queen is not an absolute monarch anymore. She is a figurehead only and has no practical power. It's called a Constitutional Monarchy. The real power has been in the hands of the Prime Minister for the last 200 years.
As for democracy - We have the 'Mother of all Parliaments'. Although I guess that isn't saying much. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Our monarchy is there to keep the tourist trade going and help the tabloids keep their circulation up. But the way they have disgraced themselves in the last 20 years, they will be gone pretty soon.
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If I lived in Russia I'd be worried about the return of communism. I've read that the communist party is about to become the smallest party in the Duma. Hopefuly for you guys the new majority party wont bring back the "Pravda" type government controlled media. I hope you guys chose to stay free over there, but the stuff I read in the above article doesn't seem to point in that direction...
Udie
I think it's not about free media. It is about money (actually about US dollars (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ). Just like if Ford would whine about "free American cars" in situation when they cant make profit selling cars and Toyota decided to buy them. Now "free speach fighters" jumped off that NTV channel and the very next day they are on another channel (TV6) rendering guys working there almost jobless. That is what I hate most in it.
NTV was really nice channel with always great picture and quick news and all that. I hope it will stay same as about half of old guys did not leave it.
[This message has been edited by sshh (edited 04-20-2001).]
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Dow. I think you mother is a Roman granddaughter.
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More likely to be of French origin actually, and my father's family history is probably Scandinavian or German.
But I'll let the insult to my patronage slide.
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'Mother of all Parliaments'