Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Boroda on October 07, 2001, 12:04:00 PM
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Please turn on your TVs. I can't get to any news sites even in Russia.
One question: why Kabul?...
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It's just the very, very beginning of the of the "air/land battle 1.01". The latest version, if you will.
First, all anti-air and command and control assets are going to be attacked until the planners are satisfed. Once you totally control the air you have a huge advantage.
Then they'll probably move on to Taliban troops.
The Iraqis didn't like version 1.0. I doubt the Taliban will like 1.01.
From CNN:
"A senior Taliban official in Kandahar said their command and radar systems at the Kandahar airport had been destroyed, but said the group does not rely entirely on that equipment, CNN learned.
The attack began with strikes at air defense installations around the Afghan capital of Kabul and the southern city of Kandahar, Pentagon officials told CNN. Witnesses in Kandahar told CNN that at least three explosions rocked the city, and power was out. "
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1.01 means another half-million civilians killed?
Ok. Now while Americans will watch CNN reports - Russian border guards will fight and another thousands will die under "smart bombs".
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Source for your numbers? Iraq didn't even release any numbers for civilian casualties.
Where are your border guards going to fight?
5000+ ALREADY died under two "smart bombs" in NYC. Did the Taliban really think there would be no response?
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Basically, radar sites, airports, AAA installations got US PRiority Mail. They also sent a few more tomahawks at some old training bases that were abandoned.
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Boroda...
I know there has to be some degree of paranoia towards news, but lets still think rationally and not get biased...
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Toad, Iraq reported at least 150000 civilians dead. Source: Soviet TV, winter 1991.
Commonwealth borders are guarded by Russian troops. I expect Taliban invading Uzbekistan and Tajikistan in a matter of days or even hours.
Dinger, they will never admit bombing civilians. Did you see Iraqui TV showing a destroyed bomb shelter in 1991? CNN said it was a military installation.
I do support the anti-Talib war. But bombing cities is too much. Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Yalu-tsyan power stations, Hanoi, Belgrad, Kabul... Better find the terrorists, and don't touch civilians. Like Russians do in Chechnya.
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.01 means another half-million civilians killed?
Wow Baroda.. I didn't know the USSR left that many survivors in Afghanistan.
:rolleyes:
Clean up your own backyard first bud.
AKDejaVu
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You are so sure that US forces are deliberately attacking non-taleban tactical targets? I suggest you assume to much, and assume the worst case scenario. While war is never a pretty picture without civilian casualties, the US does not make habit of targeting them. Please back your thoughts up with some facts...after you (and anyone else for that matter) has had time to collect good data.
V/R
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I just heard that it was a radar site targeted just outside Kabul - about 4 exlosions were heard.
British have allowed Diego Garcia to be used by USAF and two British submarines have launched tomahawk missiles on the Taliban. British E-3 Sentry's are being used in the area as requested by US Govt. (British forces have large prescence in area (23,000 plus) because of Operation Saif Sereea II (Swift Sword 2) in Oman.
Regards
Nexx
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oh brother....here comes the attack if the sweeping emotive statements.
"more babies dieing in the streets" ....more "innocent civilians clobbered"
grow a backbone.
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Commonwealth borders are guarded by Russian troops. I expect Taliban invading Uzbekistan and Tajikistan in a matter of days or even hours.
Gemme a diddlying break ! what exactly are they going to "invade" with? :rolleyes:
And how exectly are they going to do it when there busy hiding in there holes?
And there not "bombing city's" there hitting *targets*....big diff.
(http://cbccmdr.homestead.com/files/usf261.gif)
[ 10-07-2001: Message edited by: Dogger ]
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I said those places got US Priority Mail, I didn't say that's where all the mail arrived. I'm not saying we won't get our hair mussed.
In Iraq, the US killed a lot of civilians, and they actually admit to a lot of it (although not right away, it must be admitted). We bombed bomb shelters, baby food factories among a bunch of other things.
Now, there's a qualitative difference between the first four cities on your list and the last ones. ANd the Yalu power stations weren't exactly massive concentrations of civilians (Sorry about degrading the Manchurian power grid -- I'm sure that pissed you guys off).
Anyway, the first four were terror bombings, where concentrations of civilians were targeted. The last ones certainly killed civilians, but Belgrade isn't exactly flat at the moment.
And yes, we should emulate the sanitary model of the Russians in Chechnya, who only kill terrorists and those related to them within six degrees of consanguinity and affinity.
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Ammo, I simply remember US at wars. And about inevitable civilian casualities - please rethink Western attitude to Chechen operation.
Dogger, there is WAR at the Southern border of the Commonwealth, war that came to the borders of the former Empire after our Western friends persuaded Gorbachev to withdraw from Afghan. Sending troops there was a great mistake, but withdrawing was even a bigger f#$kup.
They are not hiding in their "holes". They are ready for an invasion. Your post gives me an idea of what your TV feeds you.
A good link about Soviet operations in Afghanistan:
http://www.afgan.spb.ru/index_e.html (http://www.afgan.spb.ru/index_e.html)
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While you're going about remembering the US at war, please try to remember every other war in the history of this planet that has ever taken place as well, and the civilian casualties in them. When anyone goes to war, people die, and sometimes they are civilians.
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Originally posted by Boroda:
They are not hiding in their "holes". They are ready for an invasion.
Would be very nice for the US if you're right Boroda. Will make it much easier to finish the job. However, since they haven't "owned" up to their heinous crime I think hiding is exactly what they are and will continue to do. Time will tell.
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Correct Darkstar, they have the annoying tendency to get in the way.
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Boroda go blow it out your ass
SEMPER FI
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Ammo, I simply remember US at wars. And about inevitable civilian casualities - please rethink Western attitude to Chechen operation.
Dogger, there is WAR at the Southern border of the Commonwealth, war that came to the borders of the former Empire after our Western friends persuaded Gorbachev to withdraw from Afghan. Sending troops there was a great mistake, but withdrawing was even a bigger f#$kup.
They are not hiding in their "holes". They are ready for an invasion. Your post gives me an idea of what your TV feeds you.
A good link about Soviet operations in Afghanistan:
http://www.afgan.spb.ru/index_e.html (http://www.afgan.spb.ru/index_e.html)
Boroda-
Again your statement is "I simply remember US at wars". no fact, just that you remember something. Hey bud, news flash--- The soviets werent exactly kind to their enemy's, and most wars involve a dramatic amount of sad loss, both militarily and civilian. War is not a nice thing. The policy of the USA is to define some clear attainable military goals. We strive to limit collateral damage to an absolute minimum. We dont strike unless we have weighed all avenues. The talibam and the country of Afganistan have chosen the path they would take. They made their bed, let them lie in it.
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Yeah, hegemon/Tac, that 'sh*t happens' attitude to civilian casualties was purported by both Hitler and Stalin.
But when it's your family I'm sure you'd feel a little different. 'Collateral damage'? That phrase still cracks me up.
Boroda - I don't think the cruise missiles are targeted at civilians, unlike the bombs at Nagasaki, Dresden etc. The UK/US will be very careful in the pursuit of this 'war'.
Of course, the millions of starving refugees who have displaced into unstable, poor and drought-stricken neighbouring countries might become indirect casualties of the attacks. But I'm hoping the Allies provide enough aid to sort that out.
Your point about Chechnya is interesting. I think it will become even more interesting in the next couple of years, when Russia wants to give the region a slap in the name of 'anti-terrorism'. I believe they will have bought silence from the West by helping in this latest crisis. Same goes for every 'dubious' member in the coalition.
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ummm...my point was not that toejam happens, but that the US is not the only country to ever kill civilians in war. Get a grip.
This thread is now closed. Godwin's Law is being invoked. See http://www.science.uva.nl/~mes/jargon/g/godwinslaw.html (http://www.science.uva.nl/~mes/jargon/g/godwinslaw.html) for an explanation as to why :p
[ 10-07-2001: Message edited by: the_hegemon ]
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Originally posted by Dowding:
But when it's your family I'm sure you'd feel a little different. 'Collateral damage'? That phrase still cracks me up.
Whether it cracks you up or not, it only describes civilian casualties, which is not a laughing matter.
Yea, we Americans are just insensitive killers, right? Your heart is bleeding Dowding.
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Yet another case of mother russia being perfect and the uncaring americans carelessly doing wrongs throught the world. Piss off Boroda.
SOB
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Look I've been saying to fellow anti war red scum. There are two ways of doing this either move our thumbs round and round and get these sub humans to keep attacking us and watch our civilized societies being reduced to paranoid and destroyed civilizations or,this is what THEY don't like, go in kick some bellybutton take some casualties and ask questions later. Sure, civilians will die, sure terrorists will die and of course this won't stop further attack but what this will do is destroy one of the Terrorists organizations that are a threat to our well being. People have to die we don't have uber bullets that search and track the bad guys , don't get me started on Chechnya.
I do think however this over emphasys on not getting collateral damage is making us look weak by being overly careful instead of going in and put some heat in their asses.
There is a saying by a good freind of mine that says "Shit happens and then you die",the thing is it's raining toejam all over Afghanistan.
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Originally posted by Boroda:
1.01 means another half-million civilians killed?
Ok. Now while Americans will watch CNN reports - Russian border guards will fight and another thousands will die under "smart bombs".
If you would have done the job right the first time in 1980, you wouldn't be having to re-inforce your borders, would ya? Takes America to come in and show you how its done ;)
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actually the Russians had won the war in afghanistan. they started using spetnaz troops on search and destroy missions to a high degree of success. this pushed the afghany into pakistan. when we got involved and supplied stinger missiles is when the Russian problems started.
just wanted to clear air on that. i firmly believe in striking the taliban and providing humanitarian aide to the refugees. lets not, as americans, be closed about our right to free speech though. this country is founded on the right to believe in what we feel is right in our heart; grant, 93% or so of the country(me included) believe in swift military action, this doesn't mean the other 7% aren't patriotic though. if we're going to express an opinion, lets show some class about it and grant others theirs.
[ 10-07-2001: Message edited by: whirl ]
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Hey guys liten to Boroda!!!
He gets his American data from legitaimate 1991 Soviet Communist sources!!!
And we all know Russians NEVER kill civilians, not in Chechnya, not in Afghanistan and certainly not in Eastern Germany during 1945!!!
So listen to Boroda, hes very ligit and unbiased. OK?
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Are coalition forces targeting civilians? Nope. Are civilians gonna get killed? It's unavoidable. But if ya can't bear that, just what alternative do you propose? I still haven't heard anyone mention a viable alternative to what's now taking place. And doing absolutely nothing is *not* a viable alternative imho. Plus... the citizens are getting bombed with aid packages at the same time as the Taliban targets are getting hit. That's remarkable I think. What else can be done?
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Boroda few pics from Grozny Chechenya.
I wonder what kind of "Intelligent Artillery Shells" did russians use when they shelled that city.
Or did they just shoot and hope shell hits a terrorist/freedom fighter ?
http://www.amina.com/images/grozny.html (http://www.amina.com/images/grozny.html)
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Gentlemen, Give Boroda a break ok. As you know he gets all his information from the sqaueaky clean and alway accurate Russian Free press. He also gets his insights on religion from his god who lives in a 100 proof bottle.
Mav
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I still haven't seen Boroda going personal insults like Maverick :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Boroda:
I do support the anti-Talib war. But bombing cities is too much. Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Yalu-tsyan power stations, Hanoi, Belgrad, Kabul... Better find the terrorists, and don't touch civilians. Like Russians do in Chechnya.[/QB]
Where did you hear/read that CITIES are bombed? As far as everybody else knows only MILITARY targets are bombed, terrorist camps, AA defence etc. NOT civilian targets. Similitude to bombing Dresden etc. is totally unmatched.
Is the heavy artillery bombardment of Grozny city, full of civilians, the Russian way to "find the terrorists, and don't touch civilians" ?
You should put one's house in order first.
czpetr
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Everyone's media is VERY biased towards their own side's point of view. Everyones.
Just go to TerhanTimes.com and read the rhetoric, particularily the racist stuff about anybody who isn't Muslim. If you beleave them, we're nothing but Zionist hypocrits and pupets of the Jews. They don't even beleave it was Arab suicide pilots, but American dissendents that did this (with the help of Jews). They never pass up an oportunity to blame the Jews for everything. These are they're words.
Still, if Russia is reporting that we're carpet bombing cities, tell your Russian friends that our media is reporting the opposite, that we are targeting very specific targets with as much accuracy as possible. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Hans.
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What disturbs me is that in the defence of your "freedoms", anyone who doesn't share your version of that freedom is wrong and instantly attacked.
Quite frankly the Anti-Taliban fervour suprises me considering that the original target was Osama Bin-Laden. Does this war on terrorism mean the rest of the world can expect Stealth bombers over Belfast, or marines in the streets of Barcelona rooting out Basque seperatists? Or even better troops in the streets of Boston searching for the major fund raising operations of the IRA??
Or after the dust has settled in Afghanistan, and a crater where the remains of Osama Bin-Laden are supposed to be are flashed all over CNN will the "official" war be over and the soldiers sent home?
Dont' assume that the concerns of the minor players are to ignored, because the US Military are playing with the lives of our servicemen and women too.
When the graves of Australian Diggers are being marked in the dust of Afghanistan, will we then be allowed our own freedom of opinion?
Or just told to stop being naive and stand quietly in the corner?
Tronsky
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Well, Boroda even if...IF... 150,000 is a correct number, it's a far, far cry from 500,000.
Further, given the nature of Afganistan's infrastructure, I doubt we'll be doing anywhere near as much in populated areas as we did in Iraq. (The first time; stay tuned.)
Beyond that, as others have already mentioned in this thread, your concern for the Afghan civilians is sort of touching... considering the mines that were disguised as children's toys that your country spread around a few years back.
And, of course, the gentle, humane treatment that the civilians of Grozny in particular and Chechnya as a whole come to mind as examples of what a truly compassionate State does when it seeks to "root out terrorism". BTW, are there ANY civilians left alive in Grozny? Must be a few... Russian certainly couldn't have killed them all yet, could they?
As for fighting on the Uzbekistan border, I would think the worst mistake the Taliban could make would be to concentrate troops. Anywhere. It's what a B-52 does best. I think it would seriously shorten the entire scenario if we COULD get the Taliban to concentrate troops. Dispersal is their best friend.
Well, won't be around the computer much this week.. enjoy to arguments!
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Commonwealth borders are guarded by Russian troops. I expect Taliban invading Uzbekistan and Tajikistan in a matter of days or even hours.
Last time I checked US troops (10th Mountain Div.) were landing in Uzbekistan to protect the airbase Americans are using there. BBC reporter also said that there were combat troops there too.
Taliban has no resources to invade anything. The very same Americans that bombed military targets in 3 cities during the very same night unloaded 37,000 ration packs over villages starved by Taliban. All reports from refugee camps and food distribuiton centres show unloading sacks of foodstuffs with "USA" printed all over them.
Wake up pal, America is not the enemy, not anymore in any case.
Dinger, they will never admit bombing civilians. Did you see Iraqui TV showing a destroyed bomb shelter in 1991? CNN said it was a military installation.
And why did you believe Iraqi's? Particularly trustworthy news source, eh? The very same TV showed people confessing to just about anything, mass demonstrations... Hell, I do remember demonstrating when I was a kid - it was a day off school. No more no less. You were told to go and "demonstrate"
I do support the anti-Talib war. But bombing cities is too much. Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Yalu-tsyan power stations, Hanoi, Belgrad, Kabul... Better find the terrorists, and don't touch civilians. Like Russians do in Chechnya.
Let's not go there. My parents escaped from Grozny. My mom cried on the phone when she saw their apartment block as a pile of rubble.
No-one is going to be "bombing cities". The only indiscriminate "bombing" would be unloading of food supplies. The whole refugee crisis in Pakistan is probably Taliban's own making. The news are full of starving families from Afganistan "escaping in fear of American invasion". Most of villages don't even have radios - how the hell do they know they were being "invaded"??? :rolleyes:
Clean up your own backyard first bud.
Deja - how true. You helped them to be killed. Armed them, fed them, trained them... Remember?
[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: -lynx- ]
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I was going to make a smart bellybutton reply to Borada and his comments but hell... its like beating on a deaf dumb and blind man...
xBAT
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Quote:
"Does this war on terrorism mean the rest of the world can expect Stealth bombers over Belfast, or marines in the streets of Barcelona rooting out Basque seperatists? "
If any of the above mentioned launch, shelter, or encourage terrorist attacks on American soil yeah, expect retaliation in force. Don't forget to duck.....
The United States has the duty and responsibility to defend it's territory and citizens from attack. If YOU can't abide that, too bad.
Boroda:
LOL!! You point fingers at the USA for killing civilians?? Isn't your country the one who featured "The New Soviet Man" Josef Stalin, who MURDERED 20 million of his OWN PEOPLE during "peacetime" for cryin' out loud??
BTW, "America-Bashers", you are indeed "entitled"(by the efforts of others)to your opinion. And other people are also "entitled" to tell you to take your opinion and shove it.......
Cabby
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LOL!! You point fingers at the USA for killing civilians?? Isn't your country the one who featured "The New Soviet Man" Josef Stalin, who MURDERED 20 million of his OWN PEOPLE during "peacetime" for cryin' out loud??
Cabby - lets stick to the current stuff, OK? ;) Josef Stalin wasn't "new". He was the first Soviet man, as in the first head of that Soviet state which is no longer there. If you want to go down that road, let's remember millions of native Americans who were exterminated to make way for your ancestors. No-one is "clean handed" and bashing and ridiculing your opponent is not going to get anything resolved.
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What a pile of toejam! :mad:
Beyond that, as others have already mentioned in this thread, your concern for the Afghan civilians is sort of touching... considering the mines that were disguised as children's toys that your country spread around a few years back.
Toad - do you know anyone personally who saw those mines??? I went to university with guys who fought there. They knew oh so well about those fancy mines... Why don't you stop yapping about something you have no f***ing clue about? :eek:
And while you at it - why don't you understand that Chechnya is full of little "bin laddens"? They come and kill and blow up buildings and underground stations... :mad: Are you against military operation in Afganistan or is it "one rule for us and another one for them"??? Flipping hippocrites :( :( :(
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Quote:
"If you want to go down that road, let's remember millions of native Americans who were exterminated to make way for your ancestors"
Talk about revisionist "roadkill".......
Don't compare America then, or now, to any murderous totalitarian regimes then, or now. If you insist on putting America on the same level as these evil governments i take it for what it is: Leftist/Socialist America-Bashing Propaganda.
As for Russian activities in Chechnya, it's a problem for the Russians to handle as best they can. I'm more inclined to side with the secular, trying-to-be-Democratic Russian government over that of any totalitarian, religious, Muslim government/rebels.........
Cabby
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Boroda,
Ti molodets :)
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Sieg heil Cabby, Sieg heil!
:D
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
If you want to go down that road, let's remember millions of native Americans who were exterminated to make way for your ancestors. No-one is "clean handed" and bashing and ridiculing your opponent is not going to get anything resolved.
Lets not forget they all came from England too.
:rolleyes:
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Lynx, you summed up what I wanted to say.
Looks like when Americans bomb anyone "to stone age" - they always fight for "freedom and democracy", while poor rooskie barbarians always kill innocent people or "freedom fighters". If you want to fight terrorists - then please, no double standards. We do one job.
Toad, your "toy bomb" remark is outstanding. The deepest degree of ignorance. I never expected anything like this from you.
Russian operation in Chechnya is against terrorist/gangster "state" that formed there in early 90-s. And stop pointing at that Grozniy pictures. Army gave a few days for civilians to leave the city. Measures to save civilians are unbelievable. Believe me, it could be much easier to bomb them from 10km high then to send troops to restore order. Chechnya is 60 (sixty) times smaller then Afghanistan, and our losses there were maybe 2-3 times more then in Afghan war.
About cities being bombed: I said that I couldn't get to any news site, probably because of overload. The first thing media said here was: "Americans started bombing Kabul". The reaction of my friends on the ICQ was "Damn, they are bombing someone again, instead of catching bloody terrorists and punishing them!". Later I saw all the expanations about "military" targets on the TV, and I wish it is true. But many people who were "behind the river" in 79-89 say there are no military installations in Kabul...
Another question: did your media mention the fact that engineering batallion of the 201st motorinfantry division built pontoon bridges across Pianj, and ships weapons to Northern Alliance?
Correction: there are no Russian troops in Uzbekistan. They withdrew from Commonwealth collective security treaty. Border guards and 201st division in Tajikistan are on alert now, the barracks are empty - everyone is ready for action.
I am happy that we all have a chance to fight together. And we must rethink all the double standards and political disagreements.
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Originally posted by Naso:
Sieg heil Cabby, Sieg heil!
:D
My feeling exactly ...
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Looks like when Americans bomb anyone "to stone age" - they always fight for "freedom and democracy", while poor rooskie barbarians always kill innocent people or "freedom fighters". If you want to fight terrorists - then please, no double standards. We do one job.
Do I even need to point out the irony of a statement like this coming from you? It would be a pointless effort, I'm sure.
SOB
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SOB - maybe we all need to realise that irony towards each other is not getting us anywhere. This tit-for-tat contest is just plain silly.
Boroda's overdoing it but the fact remains - in the past it'd always been "freedom fighters" operating against Russia and "terrorists" against the rest of so called civilised world. I can assure you that very similar stories were published on the other side of the Iron Wall, polarities reversed, of course.
It looks like our leaders have realised that the cold war is over, there's future and we all need to look forward rather then to try to out do one another in remebering what and who did in the past. (I refer to Blair/Putin meeting in Moscow 2 days ago) Maybe it's time to bury the hatchet for the rest of us? ;)
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Straffo/Naso:
I guess you Euros would know quite a bit about Nazis as you have "hosted" 'em before.
In any case, to your "Seig Heil" remark:
<finger> Comrade......
Cabby
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Yes, we remember very well, and those people was people with ideas just like yours, only under a different flag.
And I love you too.
:D
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This thread is a hoot!
Boroda: <smooch>
Man, you guys are a riot.
Yeah, we know the Russians have been supplying the Northern Alliance for years.
Some problems though:
1. Much of the strike consisted of cruise missiles. Now, you yella-bellied rooskies might not know this, but our Tomahawks are so concerned about civilian casualties that they often decide to fall harmlessly short of their target and not detonate rather than take innocent lives. Just ask the folks in Baghdad: 90 percent of the Tomahawks ended up floating in river.
2. I don't see how the activity of a bunch of baby-eating, God-hating, drunkard commies has anything to do with the forces of GOD and RIGHT in this GREAT BATTLE to SAVE OUR NATION. Sure, some will sacrifice their lives so that AMERICA WILL BE STRONG AGAIN. For that noble gesture, we'll look the other way while the survivors harvest the opium poppy to quel unrest in our inner cities. It's a win-win sitation.
3. Ripsnort is wrong. It's not only our English ancestors who killed off the Native Americans. Our Rooskie ancestors did it to. In fact, in 1823, Dmitrii Zavalishin brought the frigate Kreyzer to the California coast, raided Mission Dolores, and then engaged on an extermination campaign across the entire West Coast. While most of the other settlers were content to use smallpox on Native AMericans, Zavalishin came up with the idea of making use of the Native Americans' biological vulnerability to alcohol as a means of killing them off.
4. Cabby's right. You effeminate little Euros get too caught up in ethnicity. You rutabagas don't know how to run a fascist state. Let us show you.
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Funny. In 1823 Zavalishin was only 18. He was an ensign (michman) under command of M.P.Lazarev. BTW, in 1825 he was exiled for life.
Dinger, I love your posts ;)
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You effeminate little Euros get too caught up in ethnicity. You rutabagas don't know how to run a fascist state. Let us show you.
Thicker than that you die.
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Originally posted by Dinger:
4. Cabby's right. You effeminate little Euros get too caught up in ethnicity. You rutabagas don't know how to run a fascist state. Let us show you.
We are listening...
But please, explain slowly, you know, we are tard... Doh!
;)
<S> Dinger :)
P.S.
Damn, You Yankees want always be better, even in religion genocide, or in fascism...
C'mon leave us something to be proud of!
:D
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My diplomatic skills have been brought into question before, on these boards. Therefore I shall make an attempt at remaining civil.
If you take liberties with the honor of the American serviceman. You are a goat sucking, bag of toejam.
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lol Blaming the ethnic cleansing of large parts of America on your 'English ancestors'. How very convenient!
"We can do no wrong..."? ;)
Whether it cracks you up or not, it only describes civilian casualties, which is not a laughing matter.
Yea, we Americans are just insensitive killers, right? Your heart is bleeding Dowding.
Look up the word 'sardonic' ammo, and you might just understand my post.
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Boroda..
We share more similar intrests in the international view than you may be willing to concede.
Suffice to say, if either of our national intrests are assaulted, a reaction will occur. Those Terrorist Towel Heads trashed the WTC, killed over 5,000 civilians. Innocent Civilians.
Tell me.. if that happened in Moscow, and your intelligence service was able to fix responsibility as we have, what would be your nations military response be?
I'd think it would be obvious to both of us that destruction of the Talibans command/control and air defense capabilities would be step one in any operation intended to root out the Taliban supported terrorists.
As for our mutual ability to kill indescriminatly... well, hell; that goes without saying. Both our country, and your old 'USSR' were no strangers to 'unlimited war' in the past.. and it's also ovious we have not commenced on an 'unlimited war' here now. Not yet anyway..
Should the terrorists respond here with chemical or biological attacks within our borders against our civilians we will probably switch our strategy very quickly from 'point offense' to 'Unsheduled Sunrise'.
Lets hope the Terrorists don't REALLY piss off the USA. Then you'll have something to squeak about.
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Fair enough, easymo, but I didn't see anybody speaking ill of servicemen (outside of some ill-conceived rehashes of the old chestnut that Soviet servicement were targeting children).
But Boroda, don't you see? You've been brainwashed. The Decembrist protomartyr was an evil genocidal genius from age 18. How you've been brainwashed!
BYW, we bought Alaska fair and square.
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ROFL!!
Easymo, nicely done. :D
Dinger, hope the fleas from Osama's camel set up camp in yer ass.
Oh.. btw.. we will not 'be strong again'. We are strong NOW; and are quite capable of precision bombing any stinkin outhouse filled with toejam anywhere on the planet.
Sleep tight, terrorist scum. Your tulips are gonna be the new ground zero.
:D
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Hangtime, when such things happened in Moscow two years ago - Russia sent troops to restore order in Chechnya. I hope you know it. And it got all kinds of faithful indignation from the West for "human rights violations". And we didn't bomb them, we sent soldiers that died fighting the same Afghan/Arab/Albanian mercenaries that you fight now.
Dinger, can you give me any sources about Zavalishin's mission in Fort Ross? The only thing I found was that he negotiated with California to join Russian Empire. BTW, Zavalishin's participation in Decemberist "society" wasn't proved.
About Alaska: it was rented for 99 years. It's illegaly occupied since 1967, thanks to bolsheviks who lost our copy of a contract.
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Boroda..
Being a Muslim is not a criminal offense. At least, not in this country. Your troops seem to have not been instructed on that little detail in your Chechnya Troubles. Also, starving the region, killing retreating refugees and burning down hospitals with paitents in them seems like a wonderful way to restore the peace....
You reap what you sow. Your nations track record stinks a lot worse than mine.
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
bunch of reasonable stuff
That all makes sense and I agree and I'm not arguing it. What annoyed me was Boroda acting like an bellybutton and making unbased assumptions without any facts. He does that well, and I commend him for it. :)
SOB
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"It's illegaly occupied since 1967, thanks to bolsheviks who lost our copy of a contract."
The dog ate my homework.
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Boroda..
We share more similar intrests in the international view than you may be willing to concede.
Suffice to say, if either of our national intrests are assaulted, a reaction will occur. Those Terrorist Towel Heads trashed the WTC, killed over 5,000 civilians. Innocent Civilians.
Tell me.. if that happened in Moscow, and your intelligence service was able to fix responsibility as we have, what would be your nations military response be?
I'd think it would be obvious to both of us that destruction of the Talibans command/control and air defense capabilities would be step one in any operation intended to root out the Taliban supported terrorists.
As for our mutual ability to kill indescriminatly... well, hell; that goes without saying. Both our country, and your old 'USSR' were no strangers to 'unlimited war' in the past.. and it's also ovious we have not commenced on an 'unlimited war' here now. Not yet anyway..
Should the terrorists respond here with chemical or biological attacks within our borders against our civilians we will probably switch our strategy very quickly from 'point offense' to 'Unsheduled Sunrise'.
Lets hope the Terrorists don't REALLY piss off the USA. Then you'll have something to squeak about.
Aside from the "Towel Head" adjective, I agree with Hangtime.
Let me also add that we (USA) has been the only country to "EVER" lead Military action that is limited so as to limit civilian casualties.
YES, in many cases, the US Military has taken inocent civilian life as a result of war actions. YES, it hurts us (US Citizens) as humans that such a thing happens.
However, I would point out that there is not a single case in history where we have not attempted civil means to a peacful end.
From the formation of our Country in 1776, our every effort has been to settle differences by commnuication and negotiation first.
Even in present day our leaders represented that ideal with the patience indicated by a 4 week pause in which "ANY" government, including the Taliban, could have turned over any Terrorist Leader or activist.
In stead, those who harbor and protect murders have strongly denied that peaceful request.
America and our Allies have waited long enough.
It is unfortunate that we must all cloud our minds with the factor of civilian casualty.
Thousands (or is it millions) of Afgan citizens have displayed their recognition of right and wrong by not standing with bin Laden or the Taliban government. They set out on a pilgramage that would remove them from the areas they know to be wrong.
Anyone who remains behind is either to weak to move, or is a supporter of the Terror that has lead to US Military action.
Differences in Opinnion, Religious or Gramatical are never a good cause for death. However there are those who chose to blind themselves with their beliefs and so cause lives to be lost.
Civil casualty is an unfortunate factor of war. But, our ability to limit such casualty is evident by our patience and offering of refuge.
I would also remind you that the USA has provided more civil assistance to the world than ANY other country in history!
We have been there to help when NO ONE else would, and NOT ONE country has EVER come to our aid! EVER!!!
Borda,
We (USA) may make mistakes, we may do damage to civilian life, but we will not take action that is not justified. Our culture is drenched with this concept, and I trust our leaders will make decisions that will be in keeping with this concept.
Rember also that no matter how ANYTHING is done, there will ALWAYS be someone who will disagree and try to force the rest of the world to accept their idea. That's just human.
It is up to each of us to band together with those who share our desires, dreams, and interests, to make life what we want.
And to your question, "One question: why Kabul?..."
WHY NOT? Too Holy?
Viper
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BTW,
Considering the weapons at our (USA) disposal, I think that if the Taliban and US leaders were to switch places right now, then Afganistan would be a Giant Glass Bowl!!!
I think we are being very careful to get this right.
Viper
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Originally posted by Boroda:
About Alaska: it was rented for 99 years. It's illegaly occupied since 1967, thanks to bolsheviks who lost our copy of a contract.
ROFL!!!
If you want to try and rewrite Russia's history over the past 60 yrs, that's ok. But puhleeeeez don't even try to start revising the USA's history.
Guys I think we found an even lamer excuse than the "dog ate my homework" one of our youths.
BTW Boroda, I'm still interested in those questions I asked you in the other thread. It seems, to me anyway, that our nations interest are starting to be similar. I still would like to talk to you about all that stuff.....
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Hangtime, if it is what Western media tells about operation in Chechnya - then my hope for the union against terrorists is premature.
Many Russians think that the responce for the genocide of Russian population in Chechnya, bombs in apartment houses and Moscow underground, taking maternity homes as hostages (yes, it happened in 1995!) etc. is too soft.
Being a moslim is not a crime here. More then 30% of Russian citizens are Moslims. There is no more religious discrimination here any more. Many Moslims are on high official duty and they are respected members of the society.
The fight is against people who think it's a crime NOT to be a Moslim.
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Udie, sorry for the delay...
About Alaska: there actually are two versions of what happened in 1867. The version I stated here isn't an "official" now. There are no papers to prove unconditional purchasing of Alaska, and no papers to prove that it was rented. I have chosen that one just to look at your reaction ;) Anyway, noone will ever claim Alaska back. In fact we still have enough unpopulated space in Siberia.
Udie, we have common interests, but we must avoid double-standards. A hard thing after 80 years of roadkill.
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Originally posted by Sky Viper:
We have been there to help when NO ONE else would, and NOT ONE country has EVER come to our aid! EVER!!!
Viper
Well, that isn't exactly true. The French helped us twice, during the Revolutionary war and during the Civil War.
I find this thread disquieting. Parties on both sides of the Atlantic need to finally realize that the Cold War has been over for some time. Boroda - your attitude towards the U.S. shows a childhood spent digesting anti-american propaganda, just like the attitude of MOST Americans here shows a chilhood spent digesting anti-soviet propaganda. This HAS TO STOP. Both coutries have enough skeletons in their respective closets to keep these back & forth recriminations going indefinitely. If you strip away the years of hostility and ignorance, its quite clear that no other two countries stand to profit as much from true friendship, and have so many obvious similarities. Take it from me, I've lived in both (USSR for 15 years, USA for 22 years & counting).
As for the sheer pointlessness of the above debate, i refer you all to my next post :)
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Hangtime, Boroda, I think this discussion is leading us to discover something very important about our respective media.
Got it?
;)
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The following is a re-post of my posting on A.G.W.
A Pragmatist/Cynical Perspective: Warning, Wall Of Text to follow
1st a disclaimer of sorts: The following is an attempt at analysis, and is therefeore entirely devoid of any sentiment whatsoever. But before anyone accuses me of being a heartless unfeeling bastard, understand that I'm a New Yorker who LOVES
NYC more than any other place in the world, and have been deeply affected by the devastation and loss of life. However, in this, I've tried to divorce my emotions from the subject at hand.
Firstly, let us be clear - last week's attack was not on the U.S per se - this was an attack on the New Global Economy.
After all, the primary target was the World (Global) Trade (economy) Center (major target). What we have here are actions by
countries/groups/individuals who are opposed to this Global Economy, and wish to be removed/set apart/be isolated from it.
Well, as beasts go the World Economy is relatively benign - it tolerates all kinds of differences. However, it has one overriding Commandment: "THOU SHALT PARTICIPATE". The world IS being remade as we live and breathe, and the last 15 years, with the demise of the Soviet Bloc and the economic opening of China, are an object lesson to all. AT this point, the New Global Economy isn't even that new - it is an INEVITABILITY. The Communications Revolution, among other factors, has made this one a sure bet. This is obviously a HUGE threat to those who wish to be insulated from the influences of the World at large, and huddle in their own religious/cultural/national/racial corner. The Taliban is clearly one of the more extreme manifestations of this desire, but they are far from alone - the overthrow of the Shah of Iran and the establishment of the
"Islamic Republic" heralded this movement back in 1979. What we have here is even larger than the "War of Islam vs Democracy" that the media has started to crow about in the past week. What we have is nothing less than a PARADIGM WAR. The Global Economy, being the New Paradigm, is being targeted by the forces of the Old (national/religious/regional/racial) Paradigm. As such, this is bound to be a rather painfull and protracted affair - the boys will NOT be home by Xmas, people :(
I expect this conflict to take a GENERATION or two, before the dust finally settles - possibly as long as it took Capitalism to defeat State Communism. The sad thing is that the Old Paradigm has already LOST, and they KNOW it. The mere fact that these latest attacks were SUICIDE attacks, and the fact that suicide attacks in general have risen sharply over the last few years, demonstrates this. No matter how much religious indoctrination & fervor, our 1st prority as individuals is always Survival, and giving up one's life in this way pre-supposes a cetrain amount of desperation and hopeless defiance. Allow me to draw a parallel to the Kamikaze phenomenon: By the time the Kamikaze appeared, the war was well & truly lost for Japan. Well, the war was lost for the forces of the Old Paradigm before a shot was fired, but that doesnt mean that, like the Kamikaze, they wont at least try to take a lot of us with them :(
Which brings me to my second point: how will this war be fought, and how should the United States, being the formost enforcer of the New World Economic Order, go about fighting it? Clearly the old "War of nation-states" paradigm is nigh useless in this - there is no standing army over yonder hill for us to kick the crap out of. At the same time, we as a nation are more
vulnerable to attack than ever, for the same reasons that dictate that we will eventually win this war: the Communications/Technology Revolution and our open, individual freedom loving way of life. So how do we proceed?
To begin with, whatever action we take has to be EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE. Meaning that whatever we do better severely decrease the chances of successful terrorist attacks such as last week's. Any ineffective "gestures" will only get more of our people killed. Secondly, the Massive Military Option, especially the Nuclear response that I've seen being called for by some, is VERY unlikely, for two reasons: one is the lack of definite "hard" targets, and two is the massive loss of life, and therefore potential customers. Dead people don't buy Reeboks. So I expect to see "surgical" military operations ( Air and Ground/SpecFor both) systematically applied, alongside MASSIVE econo-political operations. Serious thought will also have to be given to "Home Defense", as demonstrated by the new office of Home Security recently established.
My point is, this is most certainly a War, and it will be a long war, and there will be casualties, of all kinds. But, the outcome has never been in doubt, the Global Economy will win this one hands down.
My second point is that while Patriotism & flag-waving is all well and good for the morale, it is rather misplaced - after all I'm not going to wave the General Foods company flag, are you? So in my view, all this bad feeling and acrimony that i've seen here of late is not only sad and divisive, it's simply off-target.
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Red Ant.
<S!>
Good reading.
P.S.
At least you think with your head ;)
:D
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Originally posted by Red Ant:
Well, that isn't exactly true. The French helped us twice, during the Revolutionary war and during the Civil War.
Well, ok.
But for nearly 200 years, America has stood on her own, and even the help of the French pales in comparison to the aid we have provided the World (France included) since that time.
Originally posted by Red Ant:
I find this thread disquieting. Parties on both sides of the Atlantic need to finally realize that the Cold War has been over for some time. Boroda - your attitude towards the U.S. shows a childhood spent digesting anti-american propaganda, just like the attitude of MOST Americans here shows a chilhood spent digesting anti-soviet propaganda. This HAS TO STOP. Both coutries have enough skeletons in their respective closets to keep these back & forth recriminations going indefinitely. If you strip away the years of hostility and ignorance, its quite clear that no other two countries stand to profit as much from true friendship, and have so many obvious similarities. Take it from me, I've lived in both (USSR for 15 years, USA for 22 years & counting).
As for the sheer pointlessness of the above debate, i refer you all to my next post :)
The way that I grew up, I didn't have to digest any anti-anybody propaganda!
Don't forget that the 1960-1980 Generations of the USA were focused on peace. Propaganda, although still present, became recognizable and unacceptable (well mostly).
I suppose someone could say that the Propagators just learned better methods of delivery, but we do get news from the world now. Not just US Media Points of View.
No one shut off our news access!
Viper
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Originally posted by Sky Viper:
The way that I grew up, I didn't have to digest any anti-anybody propaganda!
Don't forget that the 1960-1980 Generations of the USA were focused on peace. Propaganda, although still present, became recognizable and unacceptable (well mostly).
I suppose someone could say that the Propagators just learned better methods of delivery, but we do get news from the world now. Not just US Media Points of View.
No one shut off our news access!
Viper
My dear friend SkyViper...
While state based propaganda might not be present here, the money making one is. All news here is brought down to the lowest inteligence level to make sure that every moron gets it. Total lack of objectiveness is only paled by lack of intelligence on the part of most anchors. While in itself it is not propaganda, it surely isn't much better.
I lived though commie propaganda, remember watching news and laughing out loud cause i knew it was BS, and i was very young at the time.
Here, i'm sad to say it isn't much different. News organizations have agendas of thier owners and sponsors, CNN - liberal, Fox news ( "we report you decide" ? sure... ) is conservative/republican all across the board. Also, watching and reading news in this country you might be lead to think that there is no world on the other side of pacific or atlantic...
Gotta go.. train coming soon..
Just an FYI... BBS is the best news station one can read / watch.
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Originally posted by Sky Viper:
Don't forget that the 1960-1980 Generations of the USA were focused on peace. Propaganda, although still present, became recognizable and unacceptable (well mostly).
Viper
That is one naive statement. The so-called "peace-movement" was in itself a product of propaganda, and a generator of same. Look into the finances behind the "peace movement" and if you dig deep enough you will see SOVIET money being funneled into it, both here in the U.S and even more so in Europe. Ditto for the No-Nukes movement, again especially in Europe. Yes, we have the Soviets (in part) to thank for our last few Energy Crises, and the fact that nuclear energy development was buried here in the U.S.
Mind you, I'm usually the LAST person to cry "conspiracy!", but the facts in these cases are incontrovertible.
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Yup... Agreed. Our repective media(s) have a favored slant. And we are products of our societies, and I am in fact a prodigy of cold war propaganda.
And a "Terrorist Towel Head" is an exceptionally accurate verbal picture of bin Laden. (sorry Vipe, I call 'em as I see 'em)
Despite all that I'm certainly NOT 'anti-russian'... I am cerainly anti-Soviet Union. That 'nation' is now defunct.
Borodas uninformed mind picture of B52's carpet bombing Kabuls civilian population rattled my ire, Dingers cheap shots just ticked me off even more.
Commentary elewhere in the thread seems to indicate we should not believe anything anybody says about a damned thing, all media lies, all media is slanted all media is wrong because.. 'well; because it's wrong to bomb anybody for any reason' kinda paints a picture of moral recticitude I'm flat unable to comprehend.
Folks, nothin would make me happier than gettin back to pickin on the tree-huggers and n1k drivers and guys that take a game or themselves to damn seriously... but that ain't the world anymore.
The world changed on sept 11th, and we went to war.
Untill that war is won, and terrorisim as an instument of vengance and political gain is extinguised, commentary that puts our troops or our current mission in the same 'baby killer' bag as Vietnam, Dresden, or Nagasaki smacks of treason to me.
Right now, this very minute; our troops are flying over and walkin through the most dangerous forbidding land on this planet. They need our unswerving support and from those of us that can... our prayers.
Not second guessing ridicule from the fediddlein 2nd or third world peanut galleries, and for sure not from the folks at home.
If this turns into a Civilization war, then so be it. We will win that one too.
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Hey.. Ant..
.. is that the General Foods flag I saw on the rubble over the WTC? Were those WorldCom firefighters that died savin the worker bees? Is that the Microsoft flag on the tail of the FA/18 doin Wild Weasel work?? Is it a citizen of Kodak held in a Taliban jail for distributing food and bible literature?
World Economy.. maybe in another 100 years corporations will stand in for Nations. Right now, they don't. The folks that got hit on Sept 11th were in America. Most who died were AMERICANS. And the overwhelming majority of the people who have their tulips out over the edge right now are AMERICANS, with the valued help and assistance of our allies.
I object to the notion that my Nation is a just a diddlyin oatmeal company. (and I suspect the guys crawlin thru the bushes lookin for bin Laden would too)
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Interesting thread. Boroda u are so full of toejam, 150000 civilians killed in Iraq? Only if the Republican Guard handed in their resignations as they heard the B52s coming over. I've never seen anyone hearing slagging off the russians ops in Chechnia (sp?) like you've just slagged off the USA.
Sk Viper, the USA has had plenty of other nations help it on many occasions. Just look at the current events, the poms, the frogs, the aussies, even us Kiwis have offered up our SAS and it looks like they're going. Or how about WW2? The Japanese did attack America you know? In Pacific ops the Aussies and Kiwis housed US forces, fed em, even let them have a crack at the sheep! Our kiwi hog squadrons were reknowned for their CAS abilities, many stories have been written about the kiwi squads getting many a marine landing out of the toejam. We don't have much to offer, but what we do offer is the best of class (same goes for the Aussies... can't believe I'm saying something good about them) and we always give it 200%.
And we also supply/support two Echelon stations in NZ. Even though it doesn't exist ;)
Don't let some lone screwed up Russian fog the support the rest of world is giving, we are supporting you every step of the way.
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Hangtime, you can object all you want, but I also call 'em as I see em. :)
If you look at my post you will see that I am COMPLETELY in support of this war - I simply stated what are in my opinion the larger reasons for it.
[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Red Ant ]
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Nice thread.
I've learned all my social skills from the AH community, lol.
(Hangtime, I want you to immediatley go visit the Moonlight Bunny ranch, Bob Marley, and then the local MNF bar. Your angry. :) )
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Alright Hangtime, in all seriousness:
This isn't merely about the US, and this isn't a war we're gonna win on our own. The WTC didn't represent just the US, it represented a global economy. This may have been an attack on US soil, but for citizens of many countries it was the worst terrorist attack against their citizens ever. The attack was planned and acted out by a group that operated from several countries, and a group that sees the whole Western World, with the US at the top of the list, as its enemy. Saying it's against the US misses the point.
Now, Red Ant goes on a bit into Global Market Capitalism, and that's largely because the new world order propagated by western countries is indeed a capitalistic one. Sure our military and civil services are still state owned, but as any good Republican will tell you, it is more consistent with our state economic doctrine to privatize them too.
There is nothing treasonous in questioning what your country is doing, particularly militarily. Quite the contrary, we like to have civilian control of the military, and the good folks in our military seem to think that's a damn good idea. Many cultures around the world believe that questioning one's purpose, and at times admitting mitakes shows weakness. For me, this is one of our strengths.
There is a distinction between critically evaluating sources of information, such as mass media, and discarding it wholesale as a "pack of lies".
There is no such thing as a completely clean war. Innocent people are gonna die, and hell, some of those will be wearing the bad guys' uniforms. If you think this can be accomplished without anybody dying, you've been watching too much A-Team.
As I stated above, there is a distinction between intentionally targeting civilian populations and trying to minimize civilian casualties. Of course, such a distinction becomes tricky when a nation declares every man, womna and child to be part of a militia called to defend it.
None of these discussions have much to do with the guys in the trenches, giving and taking bullets. Some folks who don't give a damn about them are in favor of the US military killing every man, woman and child, Christian, Muslim and Jew in the Middle East. Some who give their full support to the guys actually fighting this war frankly don't want to see this war happen.
90 percent of Tomahawks used int he Gulf War did fail to hit their targets and most of them didn't detonate at all.
The US has in the past used the heroin trade against its own citizens as a bargaining chip in otherwise noble wars. We've probably done the same for cocaine, but I'm not entirely sure (uhh... Noriega?).
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At this point, most Americans have zero interest in what motivates some goat herder living in Letsbombaslob. Our countrymen have been murdered. Not killed on the field of battle. Today we gave a list of country's, suspected of harboring terrorist, to the U. N. We have just begun killing people. We will be at it a while. When we are through. We can all set down and count our sins.
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Well, this progressed well.
I see a fat dance coming....
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This isn't merely about the US, and this isn't a war we're gonna win on our own.
It is about the US, we are on the TOP of the enemy's list and we may well be forced to bear the brunt of the hard decisions. We will certainly be paying the majority of the bill and with 12 CVBG's we are in a position to insist on having it our way.
Saying it's against the US misses the point.
Riiiiight. The bastards were really after the French Coca Cola distributors based at the WTC.
Sure our military and civil services are still state owned, but as any good Republican will tell you, it is more consistent with our state economic doctrine to privatize them too.
Well hell, lets nationalize the terrorists then, and sic 'em on Bill Gates's storm troopers. *sheesh* Methinks you need to hop back into THIS space-time continuim.
There is nothing treasonous in questioning what your country is doing, particularly militarily.
"TREASON: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty."
The American Soldiers oath: "I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR (OR AFFIRM) THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC; THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD."
The Oath of Citizenship: I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same...
Whelp; there it is. Next??
As I stated above, there is a distinction between intentionally targeting civilian populations and trying to minimize civilian casualties. Of course, such a distinction becomes tricky when a nation declares every man, womna and child to be part of a militia called to defend it.
Ahh yesssss... well; seems to me we're doing pretty much the opposite of what the terrorists did. We are targeting carefully Taliban military and government assetts. Unfortunately, somebody forgot to sent the Talibans security service (Al Queida) that playbook. Seems they went for our civilains FIRST. Dummies.. can't those ignorant savages READ? *sheesh*
None of these discussions have much to do with our guys in the trenches, giving and taking bullets.
It has EVERYTHING to do with those guys. They REALLY don't need space cadet idiots from Mrs Nutcases Political Philosphy Class second guessing their objectives and methods while they hang their tulips way out over the fence for the rest of the free world. Comprende'?
90 percent of Tomahawks used int he Gulf War did fail to hit their targets and most of them didn't detonate at all.
Care to bet your house on that?? Shall we target one on yer toejamter and see if we plaster your livingroom instead? Having had more than a passing aquaintence with that particular weapon system I can comfortably state yer fulla toejam.
The US has in the past used the heroin trade against its own citizens as a bargaining chip in otherwise noble wars. We've probably done the same for cocaine, but I'm not entirely sure (uhh... Noriega?).
Back to the movies again? Sorry, conspiracy theories, the rum/slave/textile triange, the British Empire and the Opium Trade, Ollie North and Noriega or any other old history ain't got dick to do with the current issue..
OUR CAUSE IS JUST, OUR METHODS ARE APPROPRIATE, AND WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN amazinhunkS TRYIN TO WEAKEN OUR RESOLVE.
Now please go away. Thanks.
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Hmmmm. I've been wondering... did Osama bin Laden wake up one morning and say, "I hate freedom! Let's bomb the USA!" Oh, sorry... this must be a conscious and unanimous decision by Islamic fundamentalists that America is evil because we drive fast cars and watch TV. We're the great Satan because of the way we live! That must be it! And now we have been baselessly attacked and must respond! What was it someone said? That we have a right and responsibility to to exact vengeance?
Whoah, hold up! The above, of course, is roadkill. The attacks were initiated against this country as an act of vengeance, not senseless evil. Not to say that they weren't senseless evil, but there was definitely a reason for them. But instead of facing that we Americans have a "great track record" of being amazinhunks in the middle east (not to say that many of the governments and oil producers, etc, in the Middle East are prizes at all) we've decided that the way to deal with this is military strikes. Because that way we don't have to face the fact that we may (gasp!) be doing something wrong!
Of course, striking like this will do no good whatsoever. Then again, neither will not striking. Wonderful job we've done of getting ourselves into this hideous Catch 22 situation here, isn't it? It goes way back, too. I don't think it's worthwhile to respond to the ignorant statements about how the only appropriate response to this is to attack the responsible parties. Of course, given that we are responsible in good part ourselves - hey, it takes two to tango - we might as well start bombing DC as well. It might eliminate the other half of the problem. Then again, given the mostly universal notion among those supporting this war that the US does not need to take responsibility for anything and doesn't need to change, hell, even to consider changing its Middle East foreign policy, I don't see this as too likely.
Now, on to my next target, eh? Collateral damage is a good one. I'll be concise - no deaths are acceptable. Call me weak-hearted if you like, but it won't change anything. It's very easy to say something like, "Well, war is rough, but civilian casualties happen. It's sad, but it's war." I don't understand this. Why is something acceptable on a scale such as this, when on an individual and personal scale it is not? How can death be unacceptable on an individual level, yet not seriously consequencial on a more universal level? We reduce these things to numbers, to "acceptable collateral damage" levels, because that takes the humanity out of it. A death becomes a number. A number doesn't hurt, unless it's a large one. But to those affected by it, it hurts. It hurts, and we know that it does, because pretty much everyone has been touched by death in some way. And because they hurt, and because they know that the hurt is because of someone else, they hate. And then more people will get hurt. The personal is as important on the universal level as anything that starts universally. Ever drop a tiny stone in water? Of course you have. You can see that the ripples spread an amazing distance across the surface of the water.
But we can take it beyond death, and remove from that level, because then we don't need to really know that we are killing someone. We drop the bomb, and come home. When we return, we add another few tallies to the list. It's not hard, really. They're just marks. Harmless. It's not like we're stacking bodies, putting them in bags, sending them off to their relatives with a little note, "We offer our sincere condolences." And so we can just put marks on paper, say it is sad but unavoidable, and move on. No problem. Not on a personal level, at least. But it does get felt universally.
When we were attacked in NYC, we felt it, because we were all right there. We saw the people jumping out of the windows, and we felt their deaths very keenly. We desire revenge, justice, action. I desire them too, but I remember the footage of terrified people running from the Collapsing WTC towers. It's not too hard to imagine that the people that are running are Afghanis, and that they are running from a missile strike. I see someone jumping from the WTC Tower, and I think, "Dear God, he had a family, and they had him, but now neither has the other." I see footage of people dead, dying, or suffering and I think the same thing. It hurts just as much no matter where they are from, because it is NOT "tragic but necessary," it is tragic, and there is nothing else to it, because tragedy is never necessary or acceptable.
We're stuck now, though. People are going to die, and all we can die is try to get as personal as possible and wait for bombs to stop flying. I certainly hope I can do something to help. I would find it hard to forgive myself if I did nothing.
We just got bitten in the bellybutton by karma, big time. Let's hope that we don't let as much go around this time, because I don't want anything like this to come around, ever again.
Sorry for the long post.
-ispar
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I would find it hard to forgive myself if I did nothing.
Join the Navy, become a corpsman, and ask for assignment to a Marine unit. You won't be forced to carry a weapon or kill a single soul. Your mission will be to save lives...
Falling short of that, you can clam up on the pacifist agenda. Your personal beliefs in that regard are understandable but not at all appreciated, particularly to those who have sacrificed and to those who now serve in our stead.
Contribute, or get outta the way. This job needs to be done. Do your part.
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Ispar. A plane ticket to Pakistan should be fairly cheap right now. You could make your way into Afghanistan from there. You could try to find your way to some taliban leaders. you could try to talk them into peace. If you are sincere about your beliefs. This is an obvious course of action. If you do not take it. Everything you say is passivest roadkill.
If I sound flippant. Let me remind you that I did climb on a plane, and go to a bad naborhood, for what I believed in. I am quite serious. Everyone else is playing hard ball. Grab a glove, or shut up
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Ispar, for all the responsibility you continue to foist on the States for its actions prior to the attack, you personally continue to shirk it in your arguments.
You aren't saying anything as far as I can tell.
1) You have never really defined the US's culpability. Lets hear exactly what you mean by that.
2) You still offer no alternative the US's response.
What are we left with? Nada...
I fully believe people should openly speak their minds on this issue be it pro or against the retaliation... I understand your concern... but man... SAY something.
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Has anyone seen that video footage that was confiscated in Europe from a suspected Arabic terrorist. It showed them first ambushing an Algerian column on the road, then slitting the throats of those they captured. The next scene was an ambush on Russian troops in Chechnya. In that ambush a wounded Russian soldier, lying on the ground was machinegunned to death. I think we in the West got the story in Chechnya all wrong . You can thank the media for that one too, I guess.
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You got it, Leonid, You see the light!!
(holy music in background) ;)
Never trust propaganda, it's easy to recognize it: when you see white on one side and black on the other, you can bet it's propaganda at work.
The other forms of propaganda are more difficult to discover, but, with some effort... :)
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Ispar actually Osama probably did wake up one day and say exactly that.
LOOK at the BS fed to children in the Palestinian schools: Promises of going to a wonderful heaven if they kill just one Jew on the way out. This is preached to 5 year olds.
The average RAGHEAD doesn't have a clue what he's fighting for. Hes poor, hes hungry, then along comes Multi-millionaire Osama, who feeds him, clothes, makes him happy, teaches him to fly, preaches USA is evil... WHAMMO.
A lot of the terrorists that flew those aircraft were Saudi's. Osama is (was) a Saudi. Tell me... WHO ATTACKED THE SAUDI's recently??? NO F**KING ONE THATS WHO!!! Osama decided to go to Afghanistan one day to fight the Ruski's, then he got pissed off because the USA kicked Saddam's arse. This mongrel is fighting wars that have nothing to do with his country. He rationalises it by claiming Americans are infidels and should not set foot on Islamic soil.
So take your rationalisation of massmurder and stick it up ur arse. Its people like you that try to validate people like Sadam, Hitler, and Osama. Next you'll be saying its not the massmurderers fault - it was the victims???
Osama Bin Laden was a bored rich kid gone wrong.
Get your facts right. Stop sticking up for psychopaths. PEOPLE LIKE YOU LET THE HOLOCAUST HAPPEN. PEOPLE LIKE YOU LET THE GENOCIDE OF CAMBODIA, BOSNIA, AND OTHER COUNTRIES HAPPEN. Same goes for the rest of the handsomehunk peace-core poking its head in here.
You might wonder why I get so 'emotional'. Well, most of my inlaws are Cambodian. For the past 14 years I've listened to their stories. While people like Ispar sat around 'rationalising' the Khmer Rouge these guys were slicing babies in half with machettes, decapitating families, raping, torturing... so everytime I hear this "karma" crap I wanna take one of these dweebs out and kick the living toejam out of his karma.
<breath out>
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Originally posted by easymo:
You could try to find your way to some taliban leaders. you could try to talk them into peace.
Funny, didn't realise the Taliban were talking war?
Unfortunately with Australian SAS troops involved it's getting harder not dealing with the hypocrisy of all this. I just hope it's all worth it.
Tronsky
[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]
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Why is everyone blaming the media for the propoganda? Could it possibly be that its also politically inspired?
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No blame on media by itself, they are part of a system, economical controlled, more than political.
Blame on the system, spreading ignorance, intollerance, hatred, and bloodthirst everywhere in this world.
And we are seeing the results right now.
God bless the profit :rolleyes:
[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: Naso ]
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Quote:
"Blame on the system, spreading ignorance, intollerance, hatred, and bloodthirst everywhere in this world."
What "system"???
Quote:
"God bless the profit"
Do you have a job?? Do you work at all?? Do you produce anything?
You know, it's you Leftist/Socialist/Pacifists that should be quaking in your boots. The Muslim Fundamentalists(and a good number of the mainstream Muslim population as well) despise you and your beliefs/lifestyles more than anything else. Way over and above Capitalism they despise the moral values of "popular" Western Culture.
But don't worry, the conservative members of Western Society will fund, as well as fight, in defense against the Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists so you can continue to lay-around and complain about the "evil" Capitalist Warmongers......
Cabby
[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: Cabby44 ]
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sigh
OK, everyone pick a target, point, and lay blame.
The simple fact is that we has humans have inquisitive minds. This often leads us to assumptions that are wrong based on the limited delivery of the human mind who broadcasted the information we received.
I guess in that way, we do have to digest things a bit, but I don't see that it is propaganda. At least not in the way many think. I don't see where I have been fed BS lies.
Even the Vietnam BS Lies that were part of Media disinformation and Peace movement BS were obvious to those who didn't allow themselves to be mislead.
One could even now say that this war was preplanned. HOW?
When G.W. Bush was elected, I said to a few friends, "We will be at war in the Middle East within the year."
Most of them said, "Tom, your just being paranoid." I don't look so paranoid now to them.
It is easy to think that G.W. Bush has enough contacts in the Oil world, and enough old Government contacts to get such a thing going.
I mean, what would be better for a man's historical record than to look like he lead the defeat of global terrorism?
I will be the first to tell you that that is extended paranoia, and I don't feel that would be correct. I have a hard time believing any man (President) would commit such an action. But, 9/11/01, several men proved that they will go to any extreme to support their own beliefs.
It is up to each of us to chose where we stand.
I chose to stand behind the leaders of the United States of America. Our system has proven itself to be the best at keeping it's citizens free! :)
Viper
(http://www.siteviper.com/54sq/imgs/flag.usa.gif)
(http://www.siteviper.com/54sq/imgs/pledge.jpg)
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I'm posting here just to piss off the lowest form of bbs user I know.
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Not bad Viper... dig more ;)
Eh, Straffo, I feel like shooting the Red Cross :D
;)
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Red Ant, you are from Russia, immigrant, no?
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Boroda, Leonid, Anton...
Przerazajace, co ?
Ripsnort
. Take it from me, I've lived in both (USSR for 15 years, USA for 22 years & counting).
Would be hell of a long vacation if he wasn't :)
[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: fd ski ]
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ROTFL Fd-Ski :)
And....
(Sound of trumpets)
You are the number 100 post, you win the prize!!
:) ;)
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hehe, sorry, my roadkill filter was set to high, missed that part. ;) Good thing I just now set it to "low", or I'd never saw your correction Fdski. :D
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A correction. Perhaps the Russian "Butterfly" mine was not designed as a "disguished toy". However, the result was petty much as if it had been.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/mine/country/afghanis.htm (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/mine/country/afghanis.htm)
"The most infamous mine used during the Soviet Union's occupation period was the so-called 'butterfly' mine. Helicopter crews dropped untold numbers (figures range into the millions) of the small mines from the air. They were designed to flutter to the ground without exploding, and to thousands of children they resembled butterflys or toys. But one wing of the mine was filled with liquid explosive, designed to ignite and explode on contact, severing hands.
...
5 Nov 96 - According to statistics collected by Save the Children, of all mine and UXO-related injuries and deaths in Kabul in the past six months, 37% occured in October. Furthermore, children account for the majority of victims - in October alone , 78% (66 of 85) people injured and killed were children.
Mines found in Afghanistan and their origins
NR-127 Belgium
Type 69 China
Type 72 non-met China
PP-MI-SR Czech Republic
PP-MI-SR-II Czech Republic
PT-MI-K Czech Republic
Pt-Mi-K Czech Republic
SB-33 Italy
SH-55 Italy
TC-2.4 Italy
TC-3.6 Italy
MD-2 Pakistan
P2-Mark 3 Pakistan
G-Vata-6 Russian Federation
MON-100 Russian Federation
MON-200 Russian Federation
MON-50 Russian Federation
MON-90 Russian Federation
OZM-3 Russian Federation
OZM-4 Russian Federation
OZM-72 Russian Federation
OZM-UUK-AP Russian Federation
PDM-2 Russian Federation
PFM-1 Russian Federation
PFM-15 Russian Federation
PGMDM Russian Federation
PMD-6 Russian Federation
PMD-6M Russian Federation
PMN Russian Federation
PMN-2 Russian Federation
PMP Russian Federation
POMZ Russian Federation
POMZ-2 Russian Federation
POMZ-2M Russian Federation
TC-6-AT Russian Federation
TM-41 Russian Federation
TM-46 Russian Federation
TM-57 Russian Federation
TM-62 Russian Federation
TM-62M Russian Federation
TMB-44AT Russian Federation
TMDB Russian Federation
TMK-2 Russian Federation
TMN-46 Russian Federation
VS-MK2 Singapore
Mark-2 United Kingdom
Mark-7 United Kingdom
PMA-1A Yugoslavia
TMA-5 Yugoslavia
RAP-2 Zimbabwe"
http://www.icrc.org/icrceng.nsf/c1256212004ce24e4125621200524882/6af491bd995f51ecc1256adb00514af5?OpenDocument (http://www.icrc.org/icrceng.nsf/c1256212004ce24e4125621200524882/6af491bd995f51ecc1256adb00514af5?OpenDocument)
"From March 1998 to December 2000, the ICRC delegation in Afghanistan recorded 2,812 mine/UXO casualties, half of whom were children."
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Sure, target a Gulf-War era tomahawk (no screwing around and updating the electronics now) on my shack. Let's see where it hits, and if it explodes.
Upholding the constitution and defending the laws of the United States is fine. Saying "Well, I dunno if we should be sending troops to X, Y, and Z" is my right as an Amurrican. If you want to accuse me of treason for that, fine. The only way I could be guilty is if it is a treasonable offense to question this country's military. I will freely betray and actively work to overthrow my country if it places its military above scrutiny. So there you go.
As for political philosophizing -- either do it yourself, or someone will do it for you. I'm not willing to surrender our power of self-government without a fight.
As for the men and women putting their butts on the line, as you pointed out, they took an oath in which they pledged obedience with their lives. They don't have the same liberties private citizens do, largely because they are the instruments of military policy. We have the finest military on the planet, and I give them my fullest confidence that they will do the best damn job at whatever is handed them.
But Hell, we've questioned the job that's been handed to them before, so why can't we this time? And before you go out calling me some long-haired hippy, I'll remind you that we've questioned the job from all sides. It's not simply a bunch of pot-smoking morons demanding "peace", it's also the John Waynes insisting on unlimited conflict in times where political objectives and the threat of nuclear war kept things in check.
So, Hell, ya, I'll question our methods, but I'm fully confident in the ability of US soldiers to do what they've been trained to do.
Go ahead and make fun of my conspiracy theories, but the fact remains that we will need to find some sort of economic base for the new government of Afghanistan, and the easiest one to find is the one already there. Of course, if we're too busy celebrating US righteousness, they will pull a fast one.
Sorry, freedom is nothing without eternal vigilance against enemies both within and without.
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From Toads link:
"We have enforced Islamic principles for the men and women of Afghanistan and the United Nations has no right to argue with them," Information Minister
Amir Khan Mutaqi told reporters. Mutaqi also denounced the London-based human rights agency Amnesty International, which criticised the Taliban's
treatment of women and ethnic minorities ina recent report.
:rolleyes:
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What part of the "New Global Economy" did the Pentagon represent?
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Originally posted by Toad:
What part of the "New Global Economy" did the Pentagon represent?
Weapon systems producers
Combat airplanes producers (and Huge ones too) ;)
Fuel producers
Food (for troops)
Pharmaceutics (for woundeds)
Uniforms, trucks, paper, computers, supercomputers, communication systems, HiTech hardware (no, not our HiTech ;) ), etcetera, etcetera.
Jeez, Toad, you know very well, an army at war need an HUGE amount of money.
And, BTW, I knew Italy was one of the greatest producer of anti-personnel mines, but looking at your post, seem Russia beat us hands down, following this trend you are leaving us only fast cars and the better food (and "that" other activity ;) ). :)
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Originally posted by Toad:
What part of the "New Global Economy" did the Pentagon represent?
Um, actually the Pentagon was just a big bellybutton 5 sided building that was easy to see from 300 ft. in a Passenger Jet. It just happens to be well known as a US Military installation.
Remeber that the apparent target was not the Pentagon, but the White House.
Ever been to DC? Imagine being pumped up on adreneline and trying to fly that jet liner around the Mall Complex in DC. Not an easy task for someone with about 20 min. experience at the controls.
I doubt that he could figure out which one was the White House.
Viper
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The whole "world economy" idea is contrived. The World Trade Center was a hub for world commerce. It was also the tallest building(s) in New York.
The Space Needle in Seattle was a target of a terrorst plot in 1999 (planned for new year's day 2000). The reason? Because it was highly visible and there was going to be alot of partying going on around there with alot of cameras.
The target seems to be visible decadence and monuments. Contrive what you want out of that.
AKDejaVu
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Ispar,
Maybe I'm confused. What you're saying is that whenever the United States is attacked, we should try and figure out exactly what WE did to cause ourselves to get attacked and stop doing it? If so, at what point would you suggest that we do fight back? Or should we never fight back against aggressors? Should we have fought in WWII? Was that senseless violence that we should have avoided?
I guess I am confused. We should what? Make sure that there's no United States citizens, aid, military, anything in the middle east? Or maybe we should just close our borders and keep everything US in the US. But then, if/when we're still attacked, what then? Figure out what "they" don't like about our country and change that too?
SOB
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So the world-wide Global Military-Industrial Complex is headquarted at the Pentagon? This is going to come as news to a few very, very large firms around the world. The terrs pick the Pentagon not because it's the HQ of the US military but because it's a big corporate world HQ. :rolleyes:
...wait.. they picked it because they couldn't find the White house? Planned everything out so carefully but forgot to show the guys how to use a GPS and/or enter lat/long into the Flight Mangement Computer...oops wait, the Pennsylvania plane apparently turned directly for coordinates in the DC area... maybe they DID know how to program the FMC.
Hey, wait... what was the target of the Pennsy plane anyway? Anyone know for sure?
Oh, yeah, there may well have been 2-4 other hijack teams out there flying already when the FAA "pancaked" the system. Some in the industry think we were just lucky there weren't 2-4 more hijackings. What were the targets of those?
It wasn't an attack against the USA? LOL.
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SOB,
You just have to ignore Ispar. He's one of freedom's freeloaders.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.
The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill
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Parasite is more like it Toad.
xBAT
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Unbelievable Toad. But perhaps you were just complying with the general odour of roadkill pervading this thread.
Specifically, it seems you despise the whole Quaker faith.
I also thought you were better than character assasination. Clearly I was wrong, although your use of Mill's 19th century rhetoric for that purpose is quite commendable.
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OF COURSE it was an attack against the U.S.A. My point was that it is MORE than that. People seem to get the idea that just because one wishes to understand the underlying principles behind the attacks one is somehow "soft" or "un-patriotic". What happened to "know your enemy"? Toad, you of all people should know your Sun Tzu.
It should be patently clear that THE most present danger to fundamentalist Islam is not Tomahawk missiles or the 10th Mountain Division - it is Reeboks, Levi's, Coca Cola & Britney Spears. They are "losing their congregation", and what is doing it to them is "western consumerist culture". The same culture that, combined with the brilliant U.S. military/economic policy, crushed the old Soviet Union.
Now some of you seemed to misunderstand me - i am ENTIRELY for the current military action. However, i suspect that it and the humanitarian aid are not going to be enough to really "win" this war. Hence my post above. Misinterpret as you wish.
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Well, I wasn't really making an argument per se, after that first paragraph or two, I was just venting frustration and feelings. Take that bit as you may.
As far as culpability, the US doesn't have a friendly record in that part of the world. Sanctions against Iraq, support of corrupt governments in return for bases while we criticize others for the same violations, a total refusal to criticize any actions taken by the Israeli government (not to be taken as an endorsement of Palestinian methods or ideals) and a stonewall attitude with regard to that same conflict. Add to this American arrogance and assumed civil and moral superiority, and you get one pissed off Middle East.
The problem, Nash, is that I can't think of a better solution. Neither can I think of a worse one. It's a catch 22 situation, and we are responding in the way that makes the most sense to us, and has the most tangible and evidential results: military action.
Just how we function, I guess.
SOB, I am saying that yes, instead of just striking back at an attacker and assuming that killing them off will make us safe and ensure peace we should take a close look at ourselves and do what we can change about our foreign policy to make this country, as well as others, safer from terrorism for removing part of the reason. Terrorism is not "just for the hell of it." There ARE reasons, justified or not. It's a long road ahead, that's for sure.
Toad, viva la differance. S!
[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: ispar ]
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Originally posted by Toad:
So the world-wide Global Military-Industrial Complex is headquarted at the Pentagon? This is going to come as news to a few very, very large firms around the world. The terrs pick the Pentagon not because it's the HQ of the US military but because it's a big corporate world HQ. :rolleyes:
Au contraire mon ami,
Pentagon is'nt the HQ of this global complex, Pentagon it's just one of his puppets.
Funny, uh?
;)
Red-ant and Ispar, good posts, S!
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Hey Hang, why don't you ask the people support our point of view to join the military? At least ispar has the balls to say he is a pasifist. They go on about wanting people killed, but apparently don't have the steel to go do it themselves. Ispar talks his talk and walks his walk. Do they?
[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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Originally posted by ispar:
SOB, I am saying that yes, instead of just striking back at an attacker and assuming that killing them off will make us safe and ensure peace we should take a close look at ourselves and do what we can change about our foreign policy to make this country, as well as others, safer from terrorism for removing part of the reason.
why are they mutually exclusive?
why can't we retaliate for the deed and also let it serve as a wakeup call to change our policy. our policy needs changing and i don't blame the arabs for disliking the us --->BUT(qualifier)<--- the act of sep 11th needs to be dealt with too - we cant just 'let it go'. it was heinous! it's it's own thing seperate from our policy revisions. they made a mistake and have to pay the price regardless of whether we should be there or not.
what's funny is before sep 11th, liberals jumped to call anyone against the u.s. supporting israel an antisemite bastard who eats babies and now after sep 11th they are calling it the u.s.' responsibility to listen to the poor arabs complaints and maybe israel was mean after all!
what a bunch of losers. they have to take whatever position seems the most compassionate and understanding regardless of which makes the most sense.
it's like you change the vogue view with the facts staying nearly the same and suddenly their love goes to the arabs because they are a more pathetic victim than the israelis! now they need a momma worse.
sorry israel, there's a new oppressed victim for our liberal support now. you have been bumped - you are yesterday's poster victim, those poor struggling arabs are the latest thing in sympathy these days.
wake up fools. these bleeding heart saps are the same people that think we can have a war without losing civilians. when did that become relevant in war? what a riot!!!!!!!!!!!! patton is turning in his grave..... i can already hear the history books....
"america was attacked relentlessly throughout the early 21st century as industry crumbled and tens of thousands lost their lives. however, they were prevented from striking back or defending themselves because the citizens did not approve of a war where people actually died (cuz that's mean)and didn't want to hurt the feelings of arab americans in the u.s.
america worked feverishly to develop a non lethal terrorist seeking weapon and eventually came up with a bomb that targeted only bad guys and delivered a recorded message scolding them for their murderous ways and asking them nicely to say they were sorry.
it also had a number for counseling stenciled on the side in case the recorded message was too harsh and made a terrorist cry. (after all the voice used was none other than charlton heston and we know he is a big meanie cuz he likes guns)
realizing that america had turned into a bunch of sniveling rutabagas, osama bin ladin said too hell with it, surrendered to authorities and served out 2 years in a mental health care facillity and 6 mos probation. he later went on to write a best seller called "how the americans made me sad and made me want to bomb them" and now lives comfortably in redondo beach"
this world just cracks me up...
:rolleyes:
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<soapbox mode> I take exception with those that say we brought this attack on ourselves and now we should rethink our foreign policy. Yes we as Americans have exerted our not insubstantial influence in the world. Yes we have made enemies. Did we ever imagine that we would be untouchable? Only the naive would think so.
So now that our collective nose has been bloodied does that mean we should withdraw and beg forgiveness? Hell no! Some of us knew that exerting our influence and power would cause some to hate and target us yet we’ve done it anyhow. Does anyone that enjoys the fruits of living in the great and powerful nation of the US truly believe that we can be as powerful and prosperous as we are without looking after our own interests worldwide? If so I think you’ve got your head buried where the sun don’t shine. </soapbox mode>
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What a frickin' mess :rolleyes:
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I didn't read all th posts in this thread, it's become too long...
Naso, media is a very dangerous thing. You're right: we all, Russians and Americans are fed with roadkill :( I was worried about civilian casualities because Russian media just said "They bomb Kabul, Kandagar and other cities". Later they mentioned that military targets are under attack, not population. But after Vietnam and Yugoslavia most of the Russians will think: "Damn yankees bomb innocent people again!". And it's not only Russian media that covers it this way, on Euronews I hear the same words. The problem is that on different languages they give different feelings, and national mentalities are different too.
BTW, American "patriotic" songs like "Air Force coming to flatten your home" make me mad. Flatten your home! What a crap! Those singers are no better then terrorists. It may be pretty funny in English, but if you'll translate it into Russian...
Toad, butterfly mines were never deliberately used against children. They were usually used to cut off the retreating "dushmans". I don't know about American mines, but Soviet "butterfly" mines self-destructed after some time, to minimize any possible harm for the civilians and our own troops.
OTOH, many Soviet soldiers suffered from trap-mines that looked like pens, tape-recorders, thermos-flasks and other bright coloured stuff that Soviet people liked so much...
RedAnt: very good notice about Coke and Levi's.
I support the anti-terrorist operation too. It's the first time in many years when US and Russia fight against one enemy. But people have to realise that Chechens, Talibs and Albanians are in fact one gang, fed from same sources and helping each others (yes, there are Talib and Arab "volunteers" in Chechnya, and even one of the Chechen "field commanders", emir Hattab is an Arab from Jordan), while we still are throwing toejam at each other and saying slogans about "human rights".
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Hey Thrawn..
*<CENSORED>*
And yer little dog, too.
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Fek! You owe me a new dog!
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Specifically, it seems you despise the whole Quaker faith.
Hardly. Quaker has nothing to do with it at all; it's independent of religion. Like Mills, I consider this group of folks to be "miserable creatures", kept free by the exertions of better men. I think Mills described it very well.
Pity is an accurate description... the way you would pity the Dodo, in Vulcan's excellent "evolutionary stub" example.
Originally posted by Dowding:
I also thought you were better than character assasination. Clearly I was wrong, although your use of Mill's 19th century rhetoric for that purpose is quite commendable.
I characterized him, IN MY OPINION, as one of a GROUP... "freedom's freeloaders". If there was any "assasination" of his character, it was actually a suicide.
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hehe toad. i like davinci's desrciption of people as 'pitious sacks of food'.
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Quaker has nothing to do with it at all; it's independent of religion.
Yeah, those atheistic Quakers are on the increase. And lets not get started with those Muslim Quakers.
It is not independant of religion - religion is central to it, and specifically the interpretation of a religious text, as far as I can see.
Like Mills, I consider this group of folks to be "miserable creatures", kept free by the exertions of better men.
So where do you stand on Quaker involvement as battlefield stretcher bearers and ambulance drivers? 'Miserable creatures'?
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http://www.theonion.com/onion3736/freedoms_curtailed.html (http://www.theonion.com/onion3736/freedoms_curtailed.html)
:D
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God save me from religion.
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Well, holy moly.
mrfish, I didn't say the two were mutually exclusive. However, most people are ignoring examination of foreign policy in favor of beating down on Afghanistan.
Just to inform you, my stance on any of these issues has not changed. A change in resource allocation is not the same as a change in position. And FWIW, I do not recall ever discussing my feelings about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict on this board.
Toad, please stop your personal attacks, as well as your remarks about those who share my beliefs (non-Quakers as well as Quakers). Stating my beliefs is not and should not be a case of what you are calling "character suicide." I'll let them speak for themselves. If people wish to disqualify them, let them do it for themselves. I have refrained from attacking you personally on this board. Kindly extend the same courtesy to me.
And please apologize for your remarks.
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Ispar, I have not made any personal attacks on you (or anyone else) on this BBS.
I have nothing for which to apologize.
You feel free to post your beliefs on this board. So do I, and many, many other folks besides.
I don't agree with a lot of the things you have posted. Obviously your system of belief/world/life view is significantly different from mine. I have posted my opinions. However, I have made no "ad hominem" attacks against you personally.
Your oft expressed beliefs fit you into a category of "freedom's freeloaders" _ in my opinion._
If you think it doesn't apply, fine; then why the fuss? If it bothers you... maybe you should wonder why.
Ever been to Arlington, Ispar?
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Sorry if I confused you Dowding.
"Quaker" has nothing to do with my opinion of "freedom's freeloaders". They come in all sizes, shapes, colors, religions, sexes, etc. It's an equal opportunity category.
I don't despise "freedom's freeloaders" at all. I think pity is perhaps the closest description of my emotion with respect to them.
Conscientious Objectors that enlist as and serve as ambulance drivers and stretcher bearers quite obviously aren't freeloading then, are they?
Hope this clears it up for you.
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Well then Toad, I'm sorry for misreading you. Your statement is pretty easily misunderstood as an attack, but see it as you like, it's a free world.
What is it that makes you think I'm a "freeloader"? I do whatever I can to help, under the restrictions imposed upon me. Why are you implying that I am freeloading? I have not said anything to imply that, either directly, indirectly, or sub-conciously. And to say that I am, IS an attack. In my opinion of course.
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Well, that would indeed be your opinion then, to which you are of course entitled.
As for why I think you are one of "freedom's freeloaders"... that's pretty much been hammered around in other threads to no avail.
If you wish to start another thread on it, feel free to do so. I'll participate.
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And the score is..
Toad.. 47, Freedom's Freeloaders... Zip.
I wonder if the Freeloaders will try again..
:D
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Toad, butterfly mines were never deliberately used against children. They were usually used to cut off the retreating "dushmans". I don't know about American mines, but Soviet "butterfly" mines self-destructed after some time, to minimize any possible harm for the civilians and our own troops.
Perhaps not deliberately.
Just as the US would not deliberately kill civilian noncombatants?
... remember this that you posted at the top of the thread? "1.01 means another half-million civilians killed?"
Seems easy to defame the US while defending your side, eh?
None the less, 10 million mines supposedly remain in Afghanistan according to the UN. Right now, in 2001, reports are that there are 88 mine-induced casualties per month there. Main victims? Guess. (Hint: It's not combatants)
People die in war. I'm sure Russia didn't deliberately target the women and children of Afghanistan... and neither does the US.
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So the right wingers, that haven't signed up, still aren't freeloaders eh? :D
Whee!
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Thrawn.. thanks for submitting your photo and your opinions.
(http://www.augustjokes.com/Jokes/problem2.jpg)
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I was looking for my car keys. :(
Doesn't explain the hypocracy though.
[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: Thrawn ]
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No, it doesn't. Once again Toad, you are entitled to your opinion. That doesn't make you right, though. Time to leave this thread.
[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: ispar ]