Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hajo on January 07, 2006, 12:10:29 AM
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Decided as I said before to compare aircraft in the MA against other aircraft in Combat. Sorties were not the same. Would turn fight, BnZ in high alt and on the deck fights. Flew the K4 for about 75% of tour 71.
Findings as follow:
Tour 71 K4 150 kills 53 deaths
Tour 72 P51D 36 kills 10 deaths
Tour 72 SpitMkVII 26 kills 4 deaths
Again....fights were a mix of multi plane furballing 2 on 2 and a few great 1 on 1s. For the 51D and SpitMkVIII the sorties were flown on Thursday and Friday this week.
I am by no means a hot shot pilot. But in comparison of the three aircraft listed above the K4 needed attention at all times. It was a chore to fly in combat. It's main virtue was it's climb rate. If I was clear of higher alt cons I could grab away from trouble. If I was in a multiplane furball as a wingman I wasn't of much help because of the stall speed and fighting to keep the wings level at low alts trying to cover my wingies 6 and also saddeling up onto an enemy aircraft. Has good speed and with wep can even get you away from low level La7s on the deck. But for gods sake don't turn. Bleeds E very quickly in any kind of turn and if it is held to long you're in the tower. There is no low speed handling.
P51D. Fast......accelerates slowly level but once it gets going it's a great aircraft. Turns well....not great and zooms well. The ability to deploy flaps is a big plus in any situation. Flaps dropped a notch at around 400mph makes it a fine plane to use making high speed reversals. Climb rate is good....not great but you can coax 3K/min out of it when you are fairly low. Smooth as silk and it's speed can get you out of trouble if flown correctly. Marginal low speed handling ability.
Now...the SpitMkVIII.....Cripes it's hard to stall at 85mph! It climbs at 3500ft/min from the get go. Speed is fair but not great and it's handling in the vertical and horizontal is outstanding. Rate of turn is very good and the two Hispanos make it a very formidable weapon. Cripes the MarkVIII made a dweeb like me look great! I could hardly do anything wrong. It floats and retains E better then most aircraft in turns and makes reversals a snap. Hard to stall at 85mph..guess low speed handling is good LOL.
Conclusion: How in the heck did the LW down that many good aircraft flying the washing machines like the 109, 190, and 110? The disparity in quality aircraft was huge. The LW would have no chance at all with even numbers let alone being outnumbered greatly during the last half of the war. They must've been superb pilots.
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heh
I think IL-2 Forgotten Battles/Pacific fighters simulates planes much better.
In IL-2, 109s and 190s are good enough that allied planes there such as P51s, spits, and LALAs are having hard time. To kill german planes there you will need MORE allied plane to go up against them.
Heh if IL-2/pacific fighters people try to play this game, they'll LAUGH at how aces high model their P-51s, SPITS, and LALAs lol!
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Originally posted by tikky
heh
I think IL-2 Forgotten Battles simulates planes much better.
In IL-2, 109s and 190s are good enough that allied planes there such as P51s, spits, and LALAs are having hard time. To kill german planes there you will need MORE allied plane to go up against them.
Heh if IL-2 people try to play this game, they'll LAUGH at how aces high model their P-51s, SPITS, and LALAs lol!
IL-2 people do play here, and they play here very often, also you hardly ever see anyone laughing.
then again WHO CARES.............but the people on this board that will be LAUGHING, will be LAUGHING at your comment :D
as for knowing what a real 190 or 109 or 110 actually flew like, compared to how Aces High does it verses IL-2 FB, are you in the know? do you have the proof and cridentials to say what is right and what isn't?
I did not know you was an expert on the coading of these games....
this isn't meant as a flame, tikky, but as a question of "How do you know if 1 is right verses the other"?
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Well, Tikky's laughing at AH2 is too much. However, it is difficult to admit that there isnt something weird in the handling of the 109s and 190s after trying those "trails planes" like the P-51Ds, P-47D and the Spitfires. I'm not talking about climb times and max speed at altitudes. I'm talking about stability, stall, compression and so on.
AH2's german a/c are soo poor in general performance and need so much training in them that you cannot really understand how they behaved so well during the war.
Yesterday, I was reading an article (Flight Journal, special issue winter 2005) about a mock dogfight between a restored/rebuilt G-10 (Black 2) and a P-51D (Big Beautiful Doll, WZ-I):
I think it will give most of the Allied fighters I have flown a hard time - particularly in a close, hard turning, low speed dogfight. It will definitely out maneuver a P-51 in this type of fight becouse its roll rate and slow speed characteristics are much better. - Mark Hanna
Does it look like our 109G? :huh
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Does it look like our 109G?
Unfortunately, no.
I think it will give most of the Allied fighters I have flown a hard time - particularly in a close, hard turning, low speed dogfight. It will definitely out maneuver a P-51 in this type of fight becouse its roll rate and slow speed characteristics are much better. - Mark Hanna
Not in AH.
Or at least, not "definately out maneuver" - more like 'strainingly outmaneuver', as the 109 pilot will have to struggle harder to keep his plane under control, and probably would have to utilize a lot of the E-grabbing maneuvers instead of just pure slow-speed turning/rolling maneuvers. Only then will the 109 decisively gain an advantage big enough to gain a shooting solution.
In AH2, I think it's rather more accurate to say that the P-51s or other Allied fighters give 109 a hard time, rather than being vice versa.
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Originally posted by gatt
Well, Tikky's laughing at AH2 is too much. However, it is difficult to admit that there isnt something weird in the handling of the 109s and 190s after trying those "trails planes" like the P-51Ds, P-47D and the Spitfires. I'm not talking about climb times and max speed at altitudes. I'm talking about stability, stall, compression and so on.
AH2's german a/c are soo poor in general performance and need so much training in them that you cannot really understand how they behaved so well during the war.
Yesterday, I was reading an article (Flight Journal, special issue winter 2005) about a mock dogfight between a restored/rebuilt G-10 (Black 2) and a P-51D (Big Beautiful Doll, WZ-I):
Does it look like our 109G? :huh
I read the same article and referred HTC to it. don't think it will do much but......
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gentlemen, there is no way that any axis rides will be modeled at 100% fidelity to the data. it would cost HTC business. according to crumpp and others who have thoroughly researched this issue dispassionately the HTC modelling on axis rides is roughly 97% of available and reliably published data while the allied rides are at roughly 103%. all fall within a reasonable +- 3% margin of error which is acceptable. as it is the axis planes are hard enough on the easymoders. I would say we should let it go but not only is this horse dead, it's been processed into other products. quit beating it.
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Originally posted by storch
gentlemen (snip) not only is this horse dead, it's been processed into other products
Nice way to describe it :) Well, lets remind this stinking dead horse to them once in a while or soon, patch after patch, we'll find ourselves driving ("mutatis mutandis", that is) a bicycle against a tank :rofl
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Originally posted by Hajo
Conclusion: How in the heck did the LW down that many good aircraft flying the washing machines like the 109, 190, and 110? The disparity in quality aircraft was huge. The LW would have no chance at all with even numbers let alone being outnumbered greatly during the last half of the war. They must've been superb pilots.
I get tired of saying this, actually....
I think people have the wrong idea about what made a good WW2 fighter "good".
When you are going to actually die when you lose a fight, and you get caught at a disadvantage.. you don't stick around. YOU RUN. YOU LEAVE. YOU COME BACK AND "FIGHT" ANOTHER DAY.
That is how WW2 pilots fought. They didn't try to make their 109K's outfight a Spitfire when they blew a bounce, or when they got bounced. They just left.
But that is a boring way to play when you don't actually die when you lose, and you can turn around and take off in a brand new shiny plane. So people try to force their planes to do stuff they weren't designed to do, and they fail.
Then they take off in a Spitfire, and tear up other Spitfires in a fight, and think to themselves "Man, if I can kill Spitfires in a Spitfire, why can't I kill them in a 109? This plane must be porked!!".
It isn't porked. The real life "uberaces" didn't fight either.
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If I see a 109 ready to dogfight its...
1- a dweeb that dosnt know better.
2- someone Id best not mess with.
ahh, lesson learned.
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Originally posted by Nosara
If I see a 109 ready to dogfight its...
1- a dweeb that dosnt know better.
2- someone Id best not mess with.
ahh, lesson learned.
quite accurate there :aok
And Urchin got it right... the real LW aces (well, most of them) didn't dogfight unless they had to. Some of them did (read The Blonde Knight), but plenty more were "cherry picking sissies." The most notable "cherry picking sissy" being Hartmann. In his book (The Blonde Knight), he says several times that he avoided dogfights as much as possible. Avoiding fights and cherry picking are two things our AH 109's can do superbly :eek:
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it's an ammo thing also...
I do not believe the damage some planes do with one ping while other planes cannot do with numerous hits is historically accurate....
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Originally posted by storch
gentlemen, there is no way that any axis rides will be modeled at 100% fidelity to the data. it would cost HTC business. according to crumpp and others who have thoroughly researched this issue dispassionately the HTC modelling on axis rides is roughly 97% of available and reliably published data while the allied rides are at roughly 103%. all fall within a reasonable +- 3% margin of error which is acceptable. as it is the axis planes are hard enough on the easymoders. I would say we should let it go but not only is this horse dead, it's been processed into other products. quit beating it.
Unfortunately because its a dead horse is exactly why I dont have great faith in TOD as much as I would really like to
Really no disrespect ment to HTC but without balanced play and planes that you can see out of, manuver in and worth flying in the bottom line is you just arent going to get that many people willing to fly LW planes.
So what are they gonna do have AI axis planes to make up the difference in numbers?
dont get me wrong I hope TOD is a huge success because I think the game is in need of something different.
I just dont see it happening with the way the LW planes are being done down.
Thats just my opinion
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Originally posted by Eagler
it's an ammo thing also...
I do not believe the damage some planes do with one ping while other planes cannot do with numerous hits is historically accurate....
I look at it this way.
Historically and in reality a great number of planes not only survived but managed to come home with tremendous damage and hits taken.
And yet many other planes went down not from any great number of hits from large ordinance but from a single small calibre bullet to the pilots head
Its not alwas how many hits a plane takes as much as it is WHERE those hits land
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Originally posted by tikky
heh
Heh if IL-2/pacific fighters people try to play this game, they'll LAUGH at how aces high model their P-51s, SPITS, and LALAs lol!
Yep, i talked with a friend about AH, he plays IL2/Fb for long time, he liked the idea of huge arena with 400-500 players, He suscribed to AH, but was disapoited.
After he played for a while ,his impresion was the: " LW planes are ridiculos undermodeled , ", He canceled AH acount.
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Originally posted by ghi
Yep, i talked with a friend about AH, he plays IL2/Fb for long time, he liked the idea of huge arena with 400-500 players, He suscribed to AH, but was disapoited.
After he played for a while ,his impresion was the: " LW planes are ridiculos undermodeled , ", He canceled AH acount.
i go to Hyperlobby to play then asked about the *Aces High* experience... They say Russian planes in AH are same as in IL-2FB/AEP/PAC Fighters ect. Then i asked him about german planes in AH compared to IL2... he said its waaay *fubared*
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
So what are they gonna do have AI axis planes to make up the difference in numbers?
Yes. I wouldnt be suprized to see Axis 70-80% AI for the reasons you stated.
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When are you all going to realize that the planes aren't undermodelled?
They were never used for "knife fighting" in real life, why would you expect that they would be good at it in the game? They are modelled as accurately as HTC can manage.
As far as firepower goes, yes, the LW gets the short end of the stick as far as the ammo modelling, but it really isn't that big a deal.
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I dont think the LW are undermodelled. I also dont think very many will fly them in ToD.
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I believe you are probably right, but I think that has more to do with the fact that people don't want to play for the "bad guys" than the fact that the planes are "undermodelled".
Hell, there hasn't been any organized high alt stuff in AH since the 8th AF event a few years back. That was in AH1. I doubt anyone really has any idea how any plane stacks up against any other plane at 20k+, simply because nobody flies that high.
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Originally posted by Grits
Yes. I wouldnt be suprized to see Axis 70-80% AI for the reasons you stated.
Cant you already get something like that at your local "Software Etc" store?
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Yes, and that is exactly the audience they want to get Dred, box game folks. They are not making ToD for us, we already play AH, they want the box game people that dont like unstructured non-RPG stuff like the MA (or even the CT or Scenarios).
I would be shocked if after the "new" wears off more than a handful of current AH players stay with ToD.
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Originally posted by Urchin
When are you all going to realize that the planes aren't undermodelled?
They were never used for "knife fighting" in real life, why would you expect that they would be good at it in the game? They are modelled as accurately as HTC can manage.
As far as firepower goes, yes, the LW gets the short end of the stick as far as the ammo modelling, but it really isn't that big a deal.
Personally I think flight charactoristics are slightly undermodeled. Not alot as some would suggest. But enough to make a difference.
But even omitting that. lets not forget about the view also.
No way. NO WAY on this earth can anyone convince me the visability was that poor. particularly in the 109s and 190s
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Originally posted by Grits
I would be shocked if after the "new" wears off more than a handful of current AH players stay with ToD.
On that I would agree.
If I wanted to play against AI I'd buy a boxed game off the shelf.
Playing against REAL people is the primary attraction.
AI would be better served if there were offline missions that people can use for practice. IMO
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Unfortunately because its a dead horse is exactly why I dont have great faith in TOD as much as I would really like to
Really no disrespect ment to HTC but without balanced play and planes that you can see out of, manuver in and worth flying in the bottom line is you just arent going to get that many people willing to fly LW planes.
So what are they gonna do have AI axis planes to make up the difference in numbers?
dont get me wrong I hope TOD is a huge success because I think the game is in need of something different.
I just dont see it happening with the way the LW planes are being done down.
Thats just my opinion
I won't play TOD for the same reason I quit playing FSO. who wants to be a target for the ackllied easymoders? I sure don't. The reason I play AH is because the playability is better but as far as modelling and realism goes, you can't beat IL-2 on hyperlobby. that is probably the most accurately modelling in a flight game. I keep hoping some german geeks will put together a MMOG to compete with AH but this is such a niche market that it will probably never happen. but judging from everything I've ever gotten from germany, they will get it right across the board.
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well, if LW planes are better in IL2, then AH must be off.
some logic... :rolleyes:
Perhaps they are, perhaps they dont. I fail to see how IL2 is any greater authority on real planes performance than AH.
Bozon
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typical easymoder response bozon.
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Originally posted by bozon
well, if LW planes are better in IL2, then AH must be off.
some logic... :rolleyes:
Perhaps they are, perhaps they dont. I fail to see how IL2 is any greater authority on real planes performance than AH.
Bozon
He's trying to justify why he cant grasp how to fly LW rides in AH Bozon.
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Originally posted by storch
typical easymoder response bozon.
BBS posting rule # 26:
In case of a lack of good response, attack the poster.
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Originally posted by wetrat
the real LW aces (well, most of them) didn't dogfight unless they had to. Some of them did (read The Blonde Knight), but plenty more were "cherry picking sissies." The most notable "cherry picking sissy" being Hartmann. In his book (The Blonde Knight), he says several times that he avoided dogfights as much as possible. Avoiding fights and cherry picking are two things our AH 109's can do superbly :eek:
Actually, the most part of real WW2 fighter pilots was made of so called "cherrypickers". Axis and Allied. Even Saburo Sakai replied with a surprised "hell, why?" to someone asking him how was dogfighting low and slow with the Zeke against american fighters.
I remember Scenarios Lite in Warbirds I and II when we had to fill allied slots becouse everybody wanted to fly axis. But ... in the old Warbirds the FW was a FW and a 109G could stay on the tail of a P-51D up to medium-high speeds.
If I'm not wrong no one is saiyng that a 109K should close dogfight with a Spit XVI. What I'm saying is that with such an axis plane set modelling the TOD will be (probably) a flop.
I'm curious to see the next european 1944-45 scenario. I mean a Defence of the Reich scenario, with high flying heavy bombers escorted by late P-51 and P-47. I'm really interested in hearing what our (porked) G-14, K-4 with the 30mm and "incredible" 190A-8 will be able to do. Better, a 1943-44 western europe scenario with new Spitfires against our uber G-6, G-14 and 190s :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by gatt
I'm curious to see the next european 1944-45 scenario. I mean a Defence of the Reich scenario, with high flying heavy bombers escorted by late P-51 and P-47. I'm really interested in hearing what our (porked) G-14, K-4 with the 30mm and "incredible" 190A-8 will be able to do. Better, a 1943-44 western europe scenario with new Spitfires against our uber G-6, G-14 and 190s :rolleyes:
pretty much spot on Gatt. when I play in the MA I usually dedicate a fair amount of time to hunting down high alt buffs. it is nearly impossible do in an FW190A8 unless you are considerably above them to begin with. once they are above 24k forget about it. you cannot effectively remain above them as any control imput leads to accellerated stalls and a corresponding loss of critical altitude. As far as the LW is concerned the best ingame platform for killing very high buffs is the Ta152 but the overall best choice is the Bf110G. what we have is the classic buff interceptor the luftwaffe used, the Anton is all but useless in it's historic role in AHII. Bozon I didn't mean to attack you personally and certainly no offense was intended. If my comment offended you please accept this as my apology. I'm commenting on the mentality exhibited by players that gravitate to allied rides. I could take a P47D40 easily climb it to 109gajillionK, leisurely cruise around in ultrarediculous economy cruise and loiter in predictable bomber paths, take out a complete formation with less 100 rounds per gun and go back up on my perch. I've done many times and it's boring. I've never tried it with the new P47N I suppose it is even easier now. The allied rides are way easymode it's a fact. I would challenge you to spend a good portion of a tour in LW rides then honestly post what impressions you come away with.
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I spent the better part of three years in LW rides. I've already told you my opinion, but I guess it doesn't count since it doesn't mesh with yours?
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Urchin, with all respect ... should your reply put an end to the whole thread?
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Originally posted by ghi
Yep, i talked with a friend about AH, he plays IL2/Fb for long time, he liked the idea of huge arena with 400-500 players, He suscribed to AH, but was disapoited.
After he played for a while ,his impresion was the: " LW planes are ridiculos undermodeled , ", He canceled AH acount.
Try speaking to some of the HT staff who play IL2.
They'll tell you exactly what they think of the FM's for all the planes in it.
Hint - They aren't overly impressed.
The only advantage it seems to have over AH2 is the damage model.
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No real offense taken Storch, my skin is not that thin.
I did use to fly the 109G2 quite often as a furball/base defense ride (way before the latest version). These days I only get to fly a couple of hours a week so I stick with my favorites (P47D11 for fights, Mossie for attack and spit 14 to get killed in a perk ride). I don't have time to test other planes too much.
Since the flight model of the G2 did not change, I can only complain on the forward view in the new version and I'm not sure it is very much off if at all. It turns extremely well and I felt confident to mix it with spit IXs (the 5 was another issue), also knowing I can disengage the fight. Todays with spit 16 that might be more of a problem.
Now that said, I sucked in it, but had fun. You have to remember that for a jug flyer, trying out a 109 feels like gravity was turned off.
It does have some instabilities at low speeds that are not as severe in other planes in which you'd expect it. Saying 109s "suck" in AH is not true, nor will help your case. Saying that they are better in IL2 is irrelevant (perhaps they are overmodeled there? or the rest undermodeled?). Please point exacly to their "suckage" reason or where are they undermodeled. No pilot anecdotes as one never have the full details from them. No kill statistics. No comparing to other games.
My pet plane is supposed to zoom better and dive quicker than most opposition according to stories. In AH it is a mediocre or below in zoom and the only thing you'll catch in a dive is the ground eventualy. Maybe the stories were exhagerated or MA conditions are different or AH is off. I can't tell. I can only ask the better experts here, investigate it myself or keep quite and play. I chose the last option.
Bozon
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Originally posted by storch
pretty much spot on Gatt. when I play in the MA I usually dedicate a fair amount of time to hunting down high alt buffs. it is nearly impossible do in an FW190A8 unless you are considerably above them to begin with. once they are above 24k forget about it. you cannot effectively remain above them as any control imput leads to accellerated stalls and a corresponding loss of critical altitude. As far as the LW is concerned the best ingame platform for killing very high buffs is the Ta152 but the overall best choice is the Bf110G. what we have is the classic buff interceptor the luftwaffe used, the Anton is all but useless in it's historic role in AHII. Bozon I didn't mean to attack you personally and certainly no offense was intended. If my comment offended you please accept this as my apology. I'm commenting on the mentality exhibited by players that gravitate to allied rides. I could take a P47D40 easily climb it to 109gajillionK, leisurely cruise around in ultrarediculous economy cruise and loiter in predictable bomber paths, take out a complete formation with less 100 rounds per gun and go back up on my perch. I've done many times and it's boring. I've never tried it with the new P47N I suppose it is even easier now. The allied rides are way easymode it's a fact. I would challenge you to spend a good portion of a tour in LW rides then honestly post what impressions you come away with.
I can understand your frustration, but the issue of high altitude performance is something you need to take up with the German aircraft manufacturers.
Have you examined the performance curves for the various Focke Wulfs? Every one of them had critical altitudes no higher than 20,000 feet. This means that performance degrades above that height. Bf 109s were better suited for high alt work. Yet, none of the above were as capable as the typical American escort fighters, simply because these were engineered for high altitude performance.
Critical altitudes and speeds for some of the Allied fighters as modeled in AH2:
P-47N: 30k/476 mph (could be substituted for much lighter P-47M)
P-47D-11: 30k/431 mph
P-51B: 27.5k/446 mph
P-51D: 25k/441 mph
P-38J: 25k/419 mph
P-38L: 25k/419 mph
Luftwaffe critcial altitudes as modeled in AH2 (altitude of best speed):
I haven't tested the A-8, but expect performance to be very similar to the A-5 in general.
Fw 190D-9: 20k/426 mph
Fw 190A-5: 20k/407 mph
*Fw 190A-8: 20k/406 mph
Bf 109G-14: 21k/401 mph (should about 416 mph)
Bf 109K-4: 22.5k/452 mph
Bf 109G-6: 22k/388 mph
Bf 109G-2: 22k/402 mph
When the Luftwaffe fighters climb to 25k, their performance has begun to fall of from that seen at their critical altitudes.
Fw 190D-9: 421 mph
Fw 190A-5: 392 mph
*Fw 190A-8: 390 mph
Bf 109G-14: 395 mph
Bf 109K-4: 443 mph
There is also a corresponding drop in acceleration rate. At 25k, both P-38s accelerate faster than any of the Luftwaffe fighters. They also climb faster at 25k as well. The P-51s climb as fast as the 109K-4 above 25k, and nothing can compete with the P-47N up that high.
Now, don't misunderstand me. Among my all-time favorites are the Antons. I find these to be among the best looking fighters ever designed. I also agree that they are modeled too heavy in AH2. Likewise, I enjoy the Bf 109s, especially the F-4 and G-2. Quite frankly, I have not noticed any decrease in performance and handling of these two 109s. My testing shows that the G-14 is too slow by a significant margin (although the P-40B is worse, being at least 20 mph too slow, at 332 mph).
Historically, the Luftwaffe had a rough time with American escort fighters at high altitudes. Within that context, I expect that TOD will reflect that issue. Therefore, defending against the bombers and their escorts will require planning and coordination. Getting above the enemy will be paramount to any success. Typically, the guys flying Luftwaffe can count on getting only one pass on the bombers before the escorts are all over them.
As for me, I'll fly both sides and make the most of what I'm flying.
Let's not make this a whine-fest about the modeling of Luftwaffe fighters. In my estimation, adjusting the weights of the 190s, max speed of the G-14 and fixing the forward view of the 109s (should all be as good as the 109F-4) should satisfy any real issues.
Arguments for gondollas on the K-4 is not a real issue. Simply stated, they were removed from the planes as soon as they were delivered. Should gondollas be an option? Yes, for the MA; but history (and TOD is supposed to be historical) says you would never see them.
Give HTC some time to sort out all the data they have been sent and I'm sure they will correct those things established as needing adjustment.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing,
I'm surely not an FM expert but I guess that level speeds at altitudes and even times to altitudes are not everything.
What I dont like, *compared to most other aircraft* (not only allied), is the general stability of german planes during manouvres and at altitude.
I dont think that during 1943 Luftwaffe could have done (relatively) so well with such a pig plane like our 109G-6. Or during most of 1944 with our G-14. Or during both years with our Antons.
The last gift has been the lost of the G-10 and her armament options. It is the first time I see the arena more poor after the introduction of a new variant ... no comment :rolleyes:
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hello widewing, thankyou for your response. my concern isn't so much with accelleration or top speed but more with handling. take a typical attack profile for me. I'm above a set of B24s which are probably cruising along at 25k and doing 300+ mph. I'm above them about 3k alt advantage in an A8 the simple split S to the left will cause the right wing to to stall and a blown pass usually results. I understand that the LW aircraft performed best at medium altitudes but they were able to intercept bombers at 25k that is not the case in this game. I believe that this will cause TOD to be an outright failure at worst or more likely an arcade game for the players who prefer the allied plane set. It's a shame because it could be so much more. Given the amount of well researched and reliable FW and LW data that crumpp has presented as gift to HTC there can be no justification for HTC's protracted silence on this important topic and therefore easily categorized by some as indifference on HTC's part.
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i remember the NEW 109 was SO close to have its flaps fixed but HTC said they forgot to add it lol.
EDIT: i saw a graph somewhere in aircraft or bug forum that 109's flaps can be lowerd at higher speeds
The flaps in the 109 were lowered by the wheel in the cockpit (on the left beside the seat). The other wheel is for the stab trim. The flaps could be lowered to any angle. The flaps did not have a flap position called 'combat' like on the P-51. They could be lowered 10 deg @ 800kph. This is for the E but is applicable for the other models.
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Originally posted by Nosara
If I see a 109 ready to dogfight its...
1- a dweeb that dosnt know better.
2- someone Id best not mess with.
ahh, lesson learned.
Wisest words i've heard in along time.
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Originally posted by Nosara
If I see a 109 ready to dogfight its...
1- a dweeb that dosnt know better.
2- someone Id best not mess with.
ahh, lesson learned.
Yup, same thing could be said about the P-40.
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Originally posted by storch
The allied rides are way easymode it's a fact. .
I agree
They don't seems to be modeled for the same game,
P38s/F4Us/P47s much heavy and huge comparing with 109s/190s, but are soo eassy to fly, more agile , handling much better loaded, they fly high Gs upside down with bombs rockets loaded on the wings,
MA is a childish cocktail of choices, many players are waiting for TOD, but who's going to play LW? Poor AIs?:(
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I think I have the solution.
Rather then to continue to neuter the LW rides anymore.
Or introduce any more superduper performing allied planes
Just remove the LW rides from the game entirely.
the way they are headed. might as well
:aok
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Well, one thing that I know is going to be different in TOD is that the bombers won't be cruising along at 25k and 300 mph. In TOD, much like IRL, they are going to be using the protection of other bombers... so they will be cruising along at ~180 mph at 25k. This will make it much simpler for even the "under modelled and nerfed" LW fighters to intercept the bombers, much like real life.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Well, one thing that I know is going to be different in TOD is that the bombers won't be cruising along at 25k and 300 mph. In TOD, much like IRL, they are going to be using the protection of other bombers... so they will be cruising along at ~180 mph at 25k. This will make it much simpler for even the "under modelled and nerfed" LW fighters to intercept the bombers, much like real life.
This is true, but I'm a little bit skurred of attacking enormous formations of buffs with a gazillion AI-controlled lazer taggers tracking me. No good can come of that...
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Originally posted by wetrat
This is true, but I'm a little bit skurred of attacking enormous formations of buffs with a gazillion AI-controlled lazer taggers tracking me. No good can come of that...
Exactly!
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Originally posted by wetrat
This is true, but I'm a little bit skurred of attacking enormous formations of buffs with a gazillion AI-controlled lazer taggers tracking me. No good can come of that...
First ya gotta be able to see em to attack em.
Seeing them while attacking them is another problem LOL
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Originally posted by storch
hello widewing, thankyou for your response. my concern isn't so much with accelleration or top speed but more with handling. take a typical attack profile for me. I'm above a set of B24s which are probably cruising along at 25k and doing 300+ mph. I'm above them about 3k alt advantage in an A8 the simple split S to the left will cause the right wing to to stall and a blown pass usually results. I understand that the LW aircraft performed best at medium altitudes but they were able to intercept bombers at 25k that is not the case in this game. I believe that this will cause TOD to be an outright failure at worst or more likely an arcade game for the players who prefer the allied plane set. It's a shame because it could be so much more. Given the amount of well researched and reliable FW and LW data that crumpp has presented as gift to HTC there can be no justification for HTC's protracted silence on this important topic and therefore easily categorized by some as indifference on HTC's part.
You will absolutely have problems intercepting heavy bombers running at full throttle, especially at 25k. Antons were piggish up high, with a heavy wingloading and damn little reserve power. Then again, the higher you fly, the closer your max speed creeps towards stall speed. Take note of your indicated airspeed at 25k. Accelerated stalls are a common problem up high. Planes with evil stall behavior can be a real handful. Other aircraft, like the P-47s and P-51s are just coming up on their critical altitude, and have plenty of reserve power. Enough to allow them to be 40 to 50 mph faster than the 190A types at 25,000 feet. That's a significant difference. 109s suffer to a lesser degree, but they will still suffer. Especially the G-6 and G-14, which simply don't have the suds to compete with the P-51s up that high. The G-6 can only manage about 365 mph up where the P-51D can attain better than 440 mph. Anyway you slice it, that's a big disadvantage. Without the power to sustain speed while maneuvering, the 190A and 109Gs will scrub off E and find themselves fighting off accelerated stalls, even with relatively moderate increases in AoA.
In TOD we should see the bombers flying at normal cruise power, making overtaking easier. However, Luftwaffe drivers are still going to have to deal with escorts that are much faster and handle better (due to their reserve of power).
Only the 109K-4 has enough power to compete with the Mustangs at 25k. The Dora is marginal at 25,000 feet, and in the same boat as the Antons if fights much higher than that.
My regards,
Widewing
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In ToD I will fly the following, depending on the setup:
USA vs Germany: Germany (Bf109s and Fw190s)
UK vs Germany: UK (Mossies)
USSR vs Germany: Germany (Bf109s and Fw190s)
USA vs Japan: Japan (fighters)
UK vs Japan: Both probably. (fighters)
As the first setup will be USA vs Germany, I will start as German.
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Ah, lets see how (un)realistic will be TOD's OTTO (i.e. AI gunners). I mean, will it fire from every gunner position, thru fuselage(s) and against other bombers? I hope not :huh
IMO, OTTO should have his skill/precision increased togheter with the increase of the player overall skill/score/stat/#missions. This could simulate the experience increase of a bomber combat crew after some missions.
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Come to think of it, my complaints aren't that the 109s or 190s are under represented, but rather some historical oppositions are over-represented such as the P-47s or P-51s, Typhoons, P-38s and etc.. These things are ridiculously stable as a fighter.
True, some of them like the P-38 or the P-51 has horrid spins when it is pushed too far over the envelope, but really, with all that flaps flogging around who in the world stalls out those planes anyway? At least those planes can be pushed so hard until a simple stall develops into a dangerous spin.
The 109s? They just flutter, shake, and destabilize at the roll axis like someone going into a seizure, the moment it reaches over the envelope. It refuses any kind of further inputs and requires the pilot to just stop everything they are doing at the moment. Stop turning, stop pulling, just level out, stay still until fully stabilized, and then do something, which by that time the enemy plane has already turned 1/2 of a circle and is closing behind your rear.
I fly a P-47 or a P-51, enter a high-yoyo, feel the plane stalling out, then I can kick a bit of rudder, lower a notch of flap, and correct my plane position easily enough to 'shift' the stalling momentum downwards to the descending part of the yoyo. Pretty easy.
I do that in a 109, the plane feels a stall, it starts wobbling on the roll axis. I have to go neutral stick, neutral rudder, do nothing and wait for a moment until the plane fully stabilizes, before attempting anything. A pilot even slight tries to maintain the stick pressure, kick more rudder, correct the wobbling momentum, etc etc.. and bam! The plane stalls out. Gee, it's no wonder the 109s never go into fatal spins like the P-38s or P-51s - they can't be pushed up to that point in the first place.
Provided I'm in an equal situation with an equal amount of E advantage over - let's say - an La-7, I actually have a better chance to outmaneuver La-7s in P-47s or P-51s (planes I almost never fly), than any kind of Bf109 (been flying for over five years). I see a low La-7 in a P-51 or a P-47, I jump down. The enemy turns, I lower flaps, kick rudder, go into a E-killing maneuver and a series of rolls and scissors and bam, I land behind the La-7. However, in a 109, the same situation, I see a low La-7, jump him, he turns, I go into a yo-yo, and then we go around and around and around and around, until I deprive the La-7 of every last drop of E he's got left - and only then, can I land behind him - which by that time someone else steals the kill I worked my prettythang off, or some other enemy fighter blows me out of the sky.
After the series of turn radius tests I've got no beef with the pure turning radius of these planes. My beef is the stability. Some planes are just way too stable. The P-38 is understandable, since it hasn't got any torque. But I am doubtful if the P-51 was such a decisively superiorly forgiving plane under such low-speed stall fighting conditions. Nor such a heavy and large P-47 can go flopping around so stably, dragging that fat belly across the horizon rolling and swinging its tail about into such series of wingovers to outamaneuver such planes.
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Kweassa, I totally agree.
Ever been brutally outlooped (in a 109K-4) by a P-47N *low and slow* on the deck? Was that monster so easy to manoeuver?
Same thing for the Bf-110G: I've seen some of them outlooping and generally outmanoeuvering light fighters in slow and low close dogfights. Weird, isnt it?
Is AH2 going to rewrite the history of WW2 air combat?
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Originally posted by gatt
Kweassa, I totally agree.
Ever been brutally outlooped (in a 109K-4) by a P-47N *low and slow* on the deck? Was that monster so easy to manoeuver?
Same thing for the Bf-110G: I've seen some of them outlooping and generally outmanoeuvering light fighters in slow and low close dogfights. Weird, isnt it?
Is AH2 going to rewrite the history of WW2 air combat?
have you ever read "Thunderbolt" by Robert Johnson and Martin Caidin? clearly the P47 outclimbed the spitfire outran the Me262 out altituded the SR71 and could easily be parallel parked in front of the Park Hotel on the corso vittorio emmanuele at 1600 hrs friday afternoon. aamazing aircraft, really.
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Ever been brutally outlooped (in a 109K-4) by a P-47N *low and slow* on the deck? Was that monster so easy to manoeuver?
LOL you kidding me?
I've been outturned by Typhoons on deck in a Bf109F-4. A flat turn contest, and then the wobbling comes, pilot is forced to release all pressure on stick, Typhoon creeps up behind during that time and bam. Been outturned by P-47s with all kinds of Gustavs, outlooped, outzoomed.. you name it.
Zillions of situations where I'd say to myself, "Gee, only if my plane could pitch up that last 30 degrees at 150mph (hey, it's not even stall speed yet!) and manage a total 90d vertical...", but too bad this plane starts wobbling at 60 degrees pitch, where any more stick input just flips it over to the backside. Woops, there's that USAAF plane, flaps kicking out, speed stable behind me, and guess what - that plane can nose up to get the gun solution.
What do they attach to those flaps? A Harrier Jump/jet vector thrust nozzle? Flaps alone make a plane that's two tons heavier than mine outloop it at a stall fight?
...
Okay.. deep breath... rant mode off.. *Hoo Haa*
Sure, there are methods to win with a 109. Fly a hybrid style, fly very conservatively, and fly around and spend 50% of fuel just trying to outclimb everything that's in sight, since obviously that much of E advantage is the only thing that can help it actually maneuver worthwhile.
Especially when for some reason these planes are modelled with historically appropriate cockpit frame thickness, and for another obscure reason those opposition planes are modelled with paper thin cockpit frames, I need that much more E to wiggle my plane around just to see outside. Hey, OK, I got no complaints with the 109/190 cockpit frames. Reasonable, superb modelling, very realistic and immersive. But how's anyone gonna explain the cardboard thickness P-51 frames? Man, at least IL-2 with that frickin restrictive head positions models ALL cockpit frame bars as thick as perceived without any exceptions.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Nor such a heavy and large P-47 can go flopping around so stably, dragging that fat belly across the horizon rolling and swinging its tail about into such series of wingovers to outamaneuver such planes.
I'm less familiar with other planes but the P47 had forgiving handeling. Being fat and heavy also mean you don't flop as easily but mush into the stall instead (like stalling a bomber). Big elliptical wings help too in high AoA.
Johnson also said that in a quick reversal (as in scissors) the P47 would mush into the turn and loose a lot of speed, but if added some vertial displacement would keep E a lot better. I think it works that way in AH as well.
ave you ever read "Thunderbolt" by Robert Johnson and Martin Caidin? clearly the P47 outclimbed the spitfire outran the Me262 out altituded the SR71 and could easily be parallel parked in front of the Park Hotel on the corso vittorio emmanuele at 1600 hrs friday afternoon. aamazing aircraft, really.
Well, Johnsons jug was boosted to 72" (like our N with wep for example). With such crazy boosting what you get is a Razorback with performance damn near P47M (only lighter and more aerodynamic, close to XP47J) in an early 44 bird. I would not be suprised if it equaled or out climbed spit9s on some conditions.
Bozon
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Maybe its just me, but gondolas seem to help the G-14's wobble issues, and they give a nice punch at close quarters. The G6 is best flown without them, though. I think engine torque has something to do with it.
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Kweassa, c'mon another deeeep breath, its ok, its ok now, dont worry, put that shotgun down .... phewwww ... ;)
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Originally posted by storch
have you ever read "Thunderbolt" by Robert Johnson and Martin Caidin? clearly the P47 outclimbed the spitfire outran the Me262 out altituded the SR71 and could easily be parallel parked in front of the Park Hotel on the corso vittorio emmanuele at 1600 hrs friday afternoon. aamazing aircraft, really.
Hum, Corso Vittorio Emanuele ... the one in Milan or in Rome? :)
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Power your engine down to 85-90 percent instead of weping thru the turn and your floundering rate will go down a bunch.. power up when you can..(same technique as the torque heavy spit14)
Use that in the 109 I think you will appreciate the results... (only the heavy powered 109's, g2 and f4 go full bore as needed..)
Though i do have to agree the Allied fighters shure seem superior to luftwaffe planes.. the views being the latest maligning..
My suggestion to those who fly luftwaffe.. out fly the enemy.. on equal footing your at the disadvantage.. but then again most conflicts always have supposed leaders and underdogs.
Fly a zeke for a tour and then go back to luftwabbling.. you will have a appreciation of the 109, and most likely use some of that zeke know how to make you a better pilot.. (the 109f feels like a superplane after getting your sorties in a zeke..)
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by gatt
Hum, Corso Vittorio Emanuele ... the one in Milan or in Rome? :)
napoli
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Originally posted by Hajo
Conclusion: How in the heck did the LW down that many good aircraft flying the washing machines like the 109, 190, and 110? The disparity in quality aircraft was huge. The LW would have no chance at all with even numbers let alone being outnumbered greatly during the last half of the war. They must've been superb pilots.
They downed a lot of planes early in the war. The did not duel or stall fight 10ft of the deck. Hit and run, preferably lower targets. Bomber kills - contrary to popular AH belief, bombers were easy targets and they could not kill you from 1.5K out :furious. And the main reason - - - - - -- > > > > > > > ganging the enemy and getting back home was acceptable back then :D
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one of the best things I did was turn the sound for the front slats down to zero ... it is almost like I disabled them :)
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Lol, a whole thread full of people complaining that their uber dweebfire skills don't translate to the 109.
The 109 is a beast in a knife fight if you know how to make her dance. The most important thing is to know when to cut throttle and she can keep inside of some of the best turning planes in the game. The general approach to the 109 is to come in on a BnZ course with cut throttle and try to E burn and slash attack behind em while avoiding the overshoot. If you keep that throttle cut there arn't many planes that can force you past so they will instead have to do some dweebfire sustained turn to get free, which lets you just hit WEP and climb back up. Basically, treat it like a knife fighter in scissors and E fighter in turns.
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Given equal pilots, no 109 bar the 109E can hang with any "dweebfire" in a knife fight. Even then, the 109E would have its hands full.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Given equal pilots, no 109 bar the 109E can hang with any "dweebfire" in a knife fight. Even then, the 109E would have its hands full.
But it's still fun to try :D
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Originally posted by pellik
Lol, a whole thread full of people complaining that their uber dweebfire skills don't translate to the 109
Hey, I dont see ppl trying to adapt dweebfire skills to the 109 here. BTW, the 109 tactics are in another thread.