Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SkevJ on January 09, 2006, 05:34:12 AM
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The last time I flew in the MA was right before they introduced the P47N's. Sure there were a lot of LA-7's around but it had a weakness. High altitude. The popular spits although they were great they had sort of a weak dive and top speed was sort of low. Now I cant outdive the friggin spit, I cant outturn it, I cant outrun it, I cant even manuever it. I've first encountered this when I was doing a BNZ with a P47N. I saw a spit on my tail during a dive and I was like no problem I'll just outclimb it. What do you know that guy was still on my tail nose up in the air not only keeping up with me but gaining up on me as well. I'm like WTF.
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Their weakness is other Spits notably the Mk VIII, or just another XVI :D
I tried a 109F against one the other day and got him BTW.
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Originally posted by SkevJ
The last time I flew in the MA was right before they introduced the P47N's. Sure there were a lot of LA-7's around but it had a weakness. High altitude. The popular spits although they were great they had sort of a weak dive and top speed was sort of low. Now I cant outdive the friggin spit, I cant outturn it, I cant outrun it, I cant even manuever it. I've first encountered this when I was doing a BNZ with a P47N. I saw a spit on my tail during a dive and I was like no problem I'll just outclimb it. What do you know that guy was still on my tail nose up in the air not only keeping up with me but gaining up on me as well. I'm like WTF.
Hey hit the brakes and they'll fly right by:aok
Really though, the best way to get a spit is to BnZ with a P38. Rope em to death. Trust me ive out turned many spit16s in my good old 38(when the spit is at low speeds)and they are not hard to shoot down. However if they are on your six then try to dodge the bullets and hope to god he runs outta cannons. If that dont work then ur screwed.
In short run like hell when they get on your six.:aok
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Thats the problem spit 16 doesn't have any real shortcomings or problems.
Spit 16 will actually climb with some of the 109's.
If it has any alt advantage it will chase down la's & yaks.
A seafire or V will outturn a 16, but not by a lot.
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No weakness in that plane. Only the better pilot can beat the spit.
I declare Spit XVI fighter of the year. :aok
Every newbie have to begin in Spit XVI :aok
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There's one weakness...It can't catch the 262 :D
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It's speed.
Without some alt so it can dive, its not even in the top 10-15 fastest planes on the deck.
Keep your speed you'll not have a prob with XVI's. (unless he's diving).
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Wow, what a great weakness, sorry.
Fights are in alt of 500-15000 at normal in MA because of that d*** cloud
line at 15000k. I don't know whats that for. Only to keep the game in a
"restricted" altitude.
For those who want to rip me in the air now :D
I like the Spit XVI too, because my wings don't rip at high speed turns as
in Spit IX do and no perks needed to fly a late war one vs those Lala7, Doras
and so on. K4s no problem, they don't really climb away ( the strength of the
109s ). :t
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with a bit of alt you could have tried a zero G dive.
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Ki-84s will destroy them in a dogfight as well. Just don't get it too fast.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Ki-84s will destroy them in a dogfight as well. Just don't get it too fast.
Actually, in my experience that isn't true. The Ki-84 could dominate an old Spit 9 in an extended dogfight by virtue of its superior slow speed handling, and prop hanging ability. The old Spit 5 could keep up with it, given equal pilots.
The Spit 16 can keep up with it, in my experience.
So, at the best, given a better pilot the Ki-84 will be able to take a Spit 16 in a slow knife fight (just make sure the fight keeps going uphill, you need your flaps)... if the Spit 16 pilot is as good or better I'd give the edge to the Spit 16 pilot.
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Originally posted by SkevJ
What is a Spit XVI's weakness
It's pilot.
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I'm more of a Ki-84 pilot myself, mostly because I like a little balance in the game, KI has the performance I like with a weakness people can try and take advantage of but I normaly won't let them, anywho, with a Ki I feel it'll outfly the 16 but only in either the vertical or VERY low speed with flaps as said above... The thing is, the spit 16 takes less to keep it turning, it doesn't need it's flaps like the Ki so you don't have to move about as much to keep flyin, but the spit doesn't have nice 1 cool to 3 runnning WEP the Ki has, very huge advantage!
Edward
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Sunday morning I am capping (vulching) a base in a spit 16 so we can capture it. A 109k ups and to my surprise no one dives on it. I come zipping down and pull back on the throttle to prevent the overshoot. I get to 400 and squeeze the cannons. A couple of puffs and the 109 is still flying but now that its warned it starts evasives. Scissors, yo-yo's, barrell rolls, what ever.
I close to within 200 and miss. I start skidding to avoid getting out in front again and after I get lined up I am now 600 out. Using mg's only I get a couple of more hits and the 109 goes evasive again. I lose sight in the canopy frame and when I get on its 6 again I squeeze off some more rounds. All misses.
I run out of ammo and dis-engage, the 109 is climbing for alt and going back to the base.
What is a spit 16's weakness? Me.
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Aim for the wings as they are very weak.
Short burst from a 38 (yes i know many will argue thats because the 38 guns are concentrated) and the wings of a spit 16 rip right off. Thats what ive found so thats where I usually aim.
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Ki84s strength is in the vertical much more so than in turning at slow speed. The Spit 16 simply climbs too well for the Ki84 to get away with it.
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Well, as an added bonus the Ki-84 (like all planes that can fly incredibly slowly) has an itty bitty turning circle. You can also get around the "moving slowly around the itty bitty turning circle" by cutting across that itty bitty circle in the vertical.
What used to work on some (most) people in a Spit 5 was a regular old flat scissors, except instead of staying horizontal the Ki-84 pilot brings it more and more vertical... at some point the scissors is just to steep for the Spitfire, so the Ki-84 can get behind it that way. I don't think that would work on the new Spit 16, it simply handles the vertical to well, and it is quite easy to fly slow.
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Without its vertical advantage the ki84 is just the old spit v with worse mid speed manouverability and worse firepower. The spit 16 takes away that vertical advantage.
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Well, here's a bit risky, but very good move to shaking Spits in Ki-84s.
When the Spit is about 1.5 behind you and closing steadily, with not too much E advantage to the Spit - lure it into a steep spiral climb to left side, keep going until speed hits under 175mph, extend the wonder-flaps and bank a little more, and start a insanely small radius flat-turn horizontally. By this time, the Spit is about 600 yards behind and cannot follow. While he is wallowing in the air, complete the turn and simply, you have his tail.
From the Spit's point of view, he first sees the Ki-84 about 1.5 in front, climbing into a very tempting spiral climb. It seems so easy to get the Ki-84 - as you follow him up the distance rapidly closes. However, as the speed gets lower, the Ki-84 will suddenly start looking as if its defying the laws of speed or gravity, and will start a crazy left turn with an incredibly small circle and radius. By this time the Spit's speed is nearing 150mph or under, and pulling any harder left/upwards to get a lead shot to the Ki-84 becomes impossible, as it will stall out the plane. The Ki-84 just plainly turns 360 degrees and lands right behind the Spit.
Works against all the Spits and the N1K. Doesn't work against Zeros and Hurricanes. Some excellent sharp-shooters can snipe the Ki-84 just as it starts extending flaps and shifts to the pure left-hand flat turn - but it's a pretty rare instance. Frankly, for an average pilot like me, this is about the most powerful reversal I can use against Spits.
It also works well against the Spit16. The Spit16 is powerful in climbs and verticals, but the Ki-84 still out turns it handily once the flaps are out, not to mention that the Spit16 is the worst turning Spitfire barring the Spit14. That's about the only decisive advantage the Ki-84 can muster against the Spit16. To use this move against Spit16s, you have to start the turn a bit earlier, so the Spit16 tries to grab a lead-angle gun solution and blows a lot of E.
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At a distance of 600-400 yds my guns and cannons blazing in the way my
enemy will go for a deflection shot. Too bad for a Ki to get under the magic
line of 800 yds and turn not that hard turns it every time does.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Well, here's a bit risky, but very good move to shaking Spits in Ki-84s.
When the Spit is about 1.5 behind you and closing steadily, with not too much E advantage to the Spit - lure it into a steep spiral climb to left side, keep going until speed hits under 175mph, extend the wonder-flaps and bank a little more, and start a insanely small radius flat-turn horizontally. By this time, the Spit is about 600 yards behind and cannot follow. While he is wallowing in the air, complete the turn and simply, you have his tail.
From the Spit's point of view, he first sees the Ki-84 about 1.5 in front, climbing into a very tempting spiral climb. It seems so easy to get the Ki-84 - as you follow him up the distance rapidly closes. However, as the speed gets lower, the Ki-84 will suddenly start looking as if its defying the laws of speed or gravity, and will start a crazy left turn with an incredibly small circle and radius. By this time the Spit's speed is nearing 150mph or under, and pulling any harder left/upwards to get a lead shot to the Ki-84 becomes impossible, as it will stall out the plane. The Ki-84 just plainly turns 360 degrees and lands right behind the Spit.
Works against all the Spits and the N1K. Doesn't work against Zeros and Hurricanes. Some excellent sharp-shooters can snipe the Ki-84 just as it starts extending flaps and shifts to the pure left-hand flat turn - but it's a pretty rare instance. Frankly, for an average pilot like me, this is about the most powerful reversal I can use against Spits.
It also works well against the Spit16. The Spit16 is powerful in climbs and verticals, but the Ki-84 still out turns it handily once the flaps are out, not to mention that the Spit16 is the worst turning Spitfire barring the Spit14. That's about the only decisive advantage the Ki-84 can muster against the Spit16. To use this move against Spit16s, you have to start the turn a bit earlier, so the Spit16 tries to grab a lead-angle gun solution and blows a lot of E.
I must not be seeing this right in my head, because if I were the Spit I'd do one of two things. I'd either point right at you and shoot you as you went into the "spiral climb", or I'd zoom straight up, and hope for the best.
I also thought that the Spit 16 out-turned the Spit 8, which in turn out-turned the Spit 5 (not sure if that was the old or new Spit 5).
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Well, here's a bit risky, but very good move to shaking Spits in Ki-84s.
When the Spit is about 1.5 behind you and closing steadily, with not too much E advantage to the Spit - lure it into a steep spiral climb to left side, keep going until speed hits under 175mph, extend the wonder-flaps and bank a little more, and start a insanely small radius flat-turn horizontally. By this time, the Spit is about 600 yards behind and cannot follow. While he is wallowing in the air, complete the turn and simply, you have his tail.
From the Spit's point of view, he first sees the Ki-84 about 1.5 in front, climbing into a very tempting spiral climb. It seems so easy to get the Ki-84 - as you follow him up the distance rapidly closes. However, as the speed gets lower, the Ki-84 will suddenly start looking as if its defying the laws of speed or gravity, and will start a crazy left turn with an incredibly small circle and radius. By this time the Spit's speed is nearing 150mph or under, and pulling any harder left/upwards to get a lead shot to the Ki-84 becomes impossible, as it will stall out the plane. The Ki-84 just plainly turns 360 degrees and lands right behind the Spit.
Kweassa, Kudos for your ability :)
However, a good flight model should not permit this kind of moves. In my book this seems clearly a sort of "gaming the game".
Nothing personal, obviously: gamers do what developers allow them to ;)
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Got to be carefull with a Ki-84 though, turn too sharp and she can stall nasty on you, you have to ride the edge just right. It can be deceiving untill you hit the wall with it in a turn. If you practice in it as with all things you get the feel of it much better, just like any fighter.
Agree on the tactic above, but you cant misjudge E states, or you will be ashes.
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Originally posted by gatt
Kweassa, Kudos for your ability :)
However, a good flight model should not permit this kind of moves. In my book this seems clearly a sort of "gaming the game".
Nothing personal, obviously: gamers do what developers allow them to ;)
Not quite sure why you'd think this is "gaming the game". I don't fly the KI very much but from his description this maneuver sounds perfectly reasonable. Slower speed + flaps=smaller turn radius. Transitioning from a spiral climb to a level turn preserves his e (turns his e into turn rate vice climb) while the Spit is still attempting to both climb and turn. In the scenario Kweassa describes the Spit doesn't have enough e to do both. If the Spit levels off to match the KI's turn radius he's in a hugely disadvantageous position. If he attempts to level his wings for a better climb rate the KI gains angles. He's slow, below the KI and can't match the KI's turn rate/radius or outclimb him anyway. Advantage KI. Best option for the Spit would be to either sell it all early to get a hi-deflection shot on the KI or he needs to roll over, dump his nose and dive out the KI's six which is not that hard given XVI's roll rate and acceleration; however, the Spit needs to make the decision to bugout early so he's fast enough to maneuver smartly and gain separation otherwise the KI will just see him attempt to dive out and just pull down on his six. Of course, all of the above is predicated on Kweassa's phrase "not much e advantage." If you misread this and the Spit has significantly more e than you thought then he's got you "tree'd" high and slow and can probably do with you whatever he wants.
Like I said before, I don't fly the KI much but I've noticed nothing magical or game-like in the way it flies. From what I've heard, the biggest "realism" argument against it is that the Japanese planes aren't modeled with the poor quality Japanese gas which limited their engine performance to less than advertised which would affect its ability to do this.
Mace
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Well, what I find difficult to understand is how a spiral climbing (higher) a/c can flip turn and gain the six of another pursuing (lower) aircraft in just one move. Read Kweassa words: the two pilots see two different things, due probably to the lag and the holes in the FM.
Some evenings ago I and my wingie saw a 190A-5 flipping and rolling around like a bat while low and slow on the deck. We all had good connx.
It seems to me a nice "gaming the game". But again: gamers do what they are allowed to do.
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Originally posted by Mace2004
From what I've heard, the biggest "realism" argument against it is that the Japanese planes aren't modeled with the poor quality Japanese gas which limited their engine performance to less than advertised which would affect its ability to do this.
The poor Japanese fuel is modeled.
Why else do you think a light, streamlined fighter like the Ki-84, with a 20,000ft critical altitude and a 1,990hp engine only does 392mph? If it had the good US fuel it would do better than 420mph as in US postwar tests.
The same is true of the N1K2-J. A 1,900hp engine in a light fighter, topping out at 369mph? Once again it is the poor Japanese fuel.
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Originally posted by gatt
Well, what I find difficult to understand is how a spiral climbing (higher) a/c can flip turn and gain the six of another pursuing (lower) aircraft in just one move. Read Kweassa words: the two pilots see two different things, due probably to the lag and the holes in the FM.
Some evenings ago I and my wingie saw a 190A-5 flipping and rolling around like a bat while low and slow on the deck. We all had good connx.
It seems to me a nice "gaming the game". But again: gamers do what they are allowed to do.
I think you're taking what he says a little to literally. What I do is the same as he does...start a spiral climb then you tighten your turn and drop your nose (and flaps). You don't immediately do some sort of "flip turn"...you just do a tight, level turn that gets you behind his wingline then you roll in on him. It's not an immediate turn, it takes a little bit of time. Another option is that you could also climb up above and then do a rudder reversal to take him head on but that's probably more what people that are being roped expect. As far as the pilots seeing two different things I'd sa.y that the Spit isn't seeing what he expected to see in that he doesn't realize the KI is no longer in a spiral climb with low turn rate but had leveled out and has more turn rate available to him and more than the Spit can do since he can't level off. The KI pilot sees exactly what's happening since he's doing it. This is nothing to do with lag or the FM, it's the way planes work.
As far as the 190 you mentioned is concerned, we've all seen that. It's a much different issue. The 190 is probably "stick stirring" and the update rate can't keep up with it. Completely different and, for the stick stirrer, you're absolutely right that they're gaming in. No aircraft (or, more precisely no pilot) can put up with the gyrations and g forces a stick stirrer can generate.
Mace
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Originally posted by Mace2004
.... you just do a tight, level turn that gets you behind his wingline then you roll in on him. It's not an immediate turn, it takes a little bit of time .... the Spit isn't seeing what he expected to see in that he doesn't realize the KI is no longer in a spiral climb with low turn rate but had leveled out and has more turn rate available to him and more than the Spit can do since he can't level off
Ok, I'm trying to understand ;) To position himself behind the Spit's wingline the Ki has to do at least a first (more or less) 135° deg left turn. Then another 135°-180° deg left turn to gain a firing angle on the pursuer. The Spitfire during the Ki's first turn should be still lower and following in a left climb turn. Then, during the second part of the Ki's turn the Spitfire should be leveled but slow and on the same horizontal plane. Right?
How can an exteremly slow Ki can do such a >300° deg turn and position himself on the rear quarters of a pursuer? Thats amazing for me, the Ki looks like a no-bleeding Energy bat. I have to admit that I'm no skilled at all in such fighting style, but .... really, I'm puzzled.
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In a tight spiral climb you rely on the bad guy trying to pull lead to get a shot at you. As you go up you tighten the turn, the pursuer will pull even tighter to get a 'shot'. Eventually you able to get above and behind his 3/9 line and roll in behind him. It used to work well with the old AH1 109s but now the low speed handling of the 109s is so crappy that you are more likely to loose all input control before you get in enough rotations to reverse. In AH2 with the 109s this would be suicide but it works well with the A6M5, N1k2, Hurri 2c and Ki-84 etc... Even if the pursuer is faster you can force an overshoot and then roll in behind him as he passes wide. You just want to make sure you are behind the 3/9 line before you reverse or he will turn into you for a forced face shot or an easy escape. If you wait to long to reverse he will be outside gun range.
In the tight spiral you just need to balance the vertical climb with the horizontal turn so you don't bleed energy to fast, you just want to keep beyond the pursuers ability to pull lead.
In FB/AEP/PF the 109s do this very well with their high climb rate and steady control at low speeds.
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Ah ok, I havent considered the vertical separation. From Kweassa words I understood that during the last phase of the manoeuver both the a/c were almost on the same horizontal plane.
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Like most 'maneuvers' in AH its just a gimmick and only works when the other person decides to play. Just like a scissor, or rope-a-dope, or double immelman etc... If the other player doesn't bite, or as Urchin says, goes vertical you are in bad shape. They mostly rely on the other players lust for the immediate kill rather then his brains.
In rl none of these nonsense maneuvers would be tried by pilots. They were too worried about 'surviving' rather then 'pulling one over' on unsuspecting nachwuchs. Luckily in AH a sucker is born with every spawn.
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There were many fights in WW2 including extensive maneuvers. And there were many fights with very little maneuvers.
Most pilots never experienced a 1 vs 1 situation, but when that happened, as well as 2 vs 2, or 1 vs many, you can bet they used all the tricks in the book ;)
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You can't con an honest man. He simply doesn't go for the bait.
Same here.
Spiral climb, rope, all only work if he goes for it. A big part of it is about greed, kill hungry.
Smart pilot will stay lower, build his speed, duck every time the 109 makes a move. If he's good and a bit lucky in about 3 or 4 of those his E will have equalised. And the 109 will find the enemy behind and coalt.
To me the ultimate challenge is taking on that higher P51 or 109. Split Sing away from his attacks, wearing down his E to where I can turn the tables.
You win a fight like that 1 on 1 and your walking on air!
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Ah ... greed, the worst enemy in the MA. As soon as I see one of those P38 sneaky reversals, or FW bat rolls, or Typh magical 180° turns ... I simply climb MW50ing :) and reposition ... I hate being E-equalized :)
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Originally posted by Angus
Most pilots never experienced a 1 vs 1 situation, but when that happened, as well as 2 vs 2, or 1 vs many, you can bet they used all the tricks in the book ;)
First chapter in that books say split S and dive for the clouds like droppings from a pigeon :)
Those that stayed to fight from a disadvantage had balls bigger than their brains or simply no other option.
Bozon