Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SkevJ on January 09, 2006, 06:21:22 PM
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I kind of like those planes because they are rarely used. Could anyone give me info from their point of view about the bf109's?
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I'd suggest you search 109s on the forums. The 109 drivers have talked about the good and bad of the AH 109s
Here are a few of them
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168259
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167723
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165110
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164933
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damn this is gonna be toooo long to cover
I say you start in 109F-4
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I'd suggest to shift to the 109G-2 ASAP. Actually, the F-4 is *mainly* used as a furballer in our MA.
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Moin
109k4---->----109g14----->----109g6---->----109g2---->----109f4---<--109e4
only climp away ability--->----C&A and turn ability------>-----only turn abilitiy
Every 109 kompresses hard so put your elevator trim on the stick.
For the B&Z 109s: try to climp out the enemy in the dogfight. it is posible to fight against 3-4 enemys at the deck and end the fight above 15k (only k4 lol) keep your speed and don t turn much if you want to turn always use the vertical turn in combat.
for the turn 109s:
thay are slow and thay need alt atwantage e4 more than f4 and f4 more than g2. problem with the alt atwntage is the compresions of the 109s. but thay can turn with spitfires. And the E4 can turn like a bat.
cu chris3
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I guess that using the term Boom&Zoom could be misleading for a green 109 pilot. Usually the B&Z is associated with the FW, F4U, P47 ... style.
This is not the case with the 109, which is much better for a Hit&Run and Hit&Climb combat styles. I mean, the 109G-K should attack from level or very shallow dive. This way you can avoid compression and use the acceleration and climb abilities of the 109s to get a "window" exit from the fight. Moreover, you avoid to dive under the horizontal plane of the prey and loose E without reason.
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Originally posted by gatt
I guess that using the term Boom&Zoom could be misleading for a green 109 pilot. Usually the B&Z is associated with the FW, F4U, P47 ... style.
This is not the case with the 109, which is much better for a Hit&Run and Hit&Climb combat styles. I mean, the 109G-K should attack from level or very shallow dive. This way you can avoid compression and use the acceleration and climb abilities of the 109s to get a "window" exit from the fight. Moreover, you avoid to dive under the horizontal plane of the prey and loose E without reason.
thats rigt gatt. i miss the the words. i mean if you climp with the enemy on your 6 away and get higher and higher and bevor you reche your stall you fall back on the enemy. You knew what i mean? i dont know how it is called but that is what i mean with B&Z at the 109s. but sure it is still a other way as at the 190s and a wrong call for the 109s.
cu chris3
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Is that a "drag & bag"? :) I use it when I'm sure I dont end with a vertical HO.
Only when I see the enemy levelling, stalling or stop following me in the spiral climb, that is.
The best drags are those done with the assistance of a wingie or a smart fellow. A successful one is enuff for an entire playing session, IMHO.
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Hey SkevJ,
First, Welcome to AH!
I wrote this guide on flying the ME-109 back when were flying as the squad JG-3 "UDET".
http://www.geocities.com/jagd3udet/FIGHTING109.html
It has some good tips from several great 109 sim-pilots that I had the privledge to fly with. Hope it proves of some use to you.
! :aok
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I've found the 109k outclasses every plane it meets in a furball or 1v1 situation. Most people think TnBing and angles fighting in a 109k is stupid but only because they are too stupid to understand and exploit its full potential.
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Originally posted by Jester
Hey SkevJ,
First, Welcome to AH!
I wrote this guide on flying the ME-109 back when were flying as the squad JG-3 "UDET".
http://www.geocities.com/jagd3udet/FIGHTING109.html
It has some good tips from several great 109 sim-pilots that I had the privledge to fly with. Hope it proves of some use to you.
! :aok
err you gotta update the 109G-10 to 109K-4 and add 109G-14 on list:p :p
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Originally posted by Gatt
Is that a "drag & bag"? :)
If I understood well what syncrII wrote, it is the "rope and dope".
I guess that using the term Boom&Zoom could be misleading ... This is not the case with the 109, which is much better for a Hit&Run and Hit&Climb combat styles.
Sorry, I'm gonna be picky as usual. Hit and run and hit and climb are boom and zoom tactics. Check this out: Boom and zoom tactics (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_024a.html) by Andy Bush, an interesting reading for all, newbies and experienced pilots.
Gatt, I liked more your previous avatar... this is more autarkic, but the other one was nicer! :)
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You picky italian :)
Jokes and terms apart,
whats important with the 109 is to avoid compression, retain as much E as possible and exit the merge/fight with a climb. Combine all these things and you can easily understand why with the 109 you need something very different from the old well known "nose down, pick up speed, attack and fly away" style. So, beginners and green 109 pilots should be aware that the simple "Boom&Zoom" leads them to auger or quickly loose alt, then E, then the whole fight.
The old avatar was of my amphibious infantry regiment. Not very good for a flight sim ;)
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Amphibious infantry regiment? In RL or in some game? I never thought something like that, I thought you were a fan of US Navy planes, as that patch is the insignia of VF 31 Tomcatters! ;)
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/2/21/200px-Felix_VF-31_logo.png)
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Dang! 1pm and already drunk :)
I meant this old <---------- avatar
Not the one with felix the cat ;)
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:lol Ok, I never saw that one, only Felix!
Don't worry if you're drunk, life will seem you more beautiful! :D
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Originally posted by 1K3
err you gotta update the 109G-10 to 109K-4 and add 109G-14 on list:p :p
I currently don't fly German (See Signature) and the website is abandonded.
Maybe one day I will update it to the new aircraft available in AH. Still what's there is some good info for new 109 pilots. :aok
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Unrelated to AH, but I had a 10 minute fight with a 109K in PF while in the HL. I was a late 44 P-38L. He always had the zoom climb at about a 45 - then pitched sharply to bring the nose over for a guns solution. Problem was, he had 30mm pods on his wings, so the sudden pitch ended up snapping him over more often then not and committing him to a turn fight with some vertical reversals here and there.
One thing I have noticed, whether in AH or PF, is the 109 is very good at getting shots at high AOA.
Irregardless, i'd like to say it were a stalemate in the end - but i'm thinking he burned his engine up b/c he nosed over for the deck, I pushed for zone 5 and he got a rectal rearrangement from 450 meters.
But in AH, fav ride of the 109's is the G14. Its alil underpowered, climbs like **** and does everything worse then the K4, but its a hellova lot more satisfying when you get a 30mm in the right spot and have a good laugh at the other guy's misfortune.
Wolf
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I've found the 109k outclasses every plane it meets in a furball or 1v1 situation. Most people think TnBing and angles fighting in a 109k is stupid but only because they are too stupid to understand and exploit its full potential.
What if you're facing a plane that can fight on equal terms with the K-4 with just its half potential?
Lo and behold, the agony of 109s rises from that point.
Zip! Flaps down! Here we go! Planes two tons heavier than 109s out looping it at a stall fight!
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Any hint or tip about using flaps with the 109?
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Originally posted by gatt
Any hint or tip about using flaps with the 109?
Don't....
Despite the terrible modeling of the 109s in AH the 109 had a great instantaneous turn rate in real life. This meant that in the first part of the turn the 109 could get inside a breaking / maneuvering bad guy. It used to be in AH that you could pull through the first quarter or so of the turn to get lead, then by releasing back pressure (zeroing g) on your stick you could get a straight shot as the bad guy flew through your site. If you missed you simply went up and pitched backed in.
In RL some LW pilots used their flaps to help pull lead in a longer sustained turn but this was brief just to get a shot. 360 degree merry-go-rounds or sustained 'loop fights' were avoided.
In FB/AEP/PF the 109s are much like the old AH1 109s plus 'combat flaps'. There you can out maneuver many a plane (even Spits) in low speed turn fights and use 'combat flaps' to pull lead. But more importantly the 109s over there have much better low speed handling and acceleration. If you get into trouble you can go nose low and build up speed quickly. There's very little 'flopping about' at low speeds like in AH2 if your stick is calibrated correctly.
Flaps are going to do very little to help with the 109s low speed handling in AH. You will just bleed energy quicker and with the 109s mediocre acceleration you won't be able to separate if things go badly. But until we see what they give us who knows...
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Not to mention that they don't help stablizing all that much.
Take the P-38. This plane has noticeable flap effects. Enter a tight turn nearing the edge of stall, feel the plane wanting to stall, combat flaps down, and it stabilizes. Or, if someone wants to say that's because P-38s are Fowlers, then fine, although a little bit less in degree, the same with P-51 split flaps.
With the 109s, the flaps don't help that much at all. It's not that they don't have any effect in the turn radius, but rather it doesn't help in stabilizing the plane much. Feel a stall during a turn, put one flaps down.. nope.. not much difference. The plane still wobbles in the roll axis, and when that happens *sigh* stop input.. the speed builds, and then the flaps retract.
Basically, if you can't outturn a plane long enough to gain a gun solution without the use of flaps, then no amount of flaps are gonna help you - just don't use it at all. At least, I rarely use them in the 109.
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Not even it the top of the loop, immelmann, wingover ... ?
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I use it at the top of the loops, yes. As you know, elongated immelmanns or loops go up gently, and reverse gently. As long as the flight path is straight and stable there's no need for much stick input in the first place.
However.. in wingovers or yoyos.. its useless, IMO. I don't use it in these moves. You need a lot of rudder and stick input with these moves, and flaps or no flaps, if the 109 nears the verge of stall it will wobble. And when it wobbles you have no choice to let the controls sit - then the speed goes up and flaps will retract anyway.
So, at least for me, not useful at all, at least in this kind of situation. There could be other real 109 aces who has other uses for flaps, but at least for me, I just don't see the need.
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1. First: Fly in Horde
2. Second: Fly with spits and La7s as escorts, in fact any other LW plane will do.
3. Third: don't fly the 109s they're so porked if they could be packaged and sold in a grocery store you'd get pork chops, bacon, and Ham.
4.Fourth: Fly a Spit XVI. :D
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Moin
About the flight model of the 109s.
The most people say that this FM is modeled badly because thay think that the 109s must be turn better.
But in RL the 109 wasn t a good turnfighter expecialy the last series was not.
A 109k4 was a bad turner because of his havy waight and his powerfull engine. Thats why she cant follow a spit16/8/or5 in a turn but the 109g6 cn follow a spit16 in a turn.
What i want to say is that you cant say the 109s can do somethink lik that and that because every 109 had his own strongness.
And i gusse that this fact is modeled great in AH. Ok maybe we miss the compatflaps but thay are comming some day.
On the other hand you cant compere the LW planse to the amerikan plans. In RL the US planes was constructed to be more handy because the most us pilots didnt get much experince in flight and combat (in comparation to LW pilots).
For example if a US pilot had get the 109k4 to fly he had notice much problems. For example low visible at the grond poor turnradius bad cockpit confort, hard aiming with the gunns and so on. And he were not abel to be a god pilot in it because he did not have any experience in a so a unhandy think like the 109k4. For the LW pilots there is no problem to work with these thinks because thay didnt knew anythink better.
Or the LW pilots didnt notice problems with 109s because thay are to experinced in it and so Messerschmitt didnt get any recall to change anything on the 109s to made it more handy.
By the way im geting tired about hering that my 109s are bad modeled. Maybe thay are some failures in the speed but i doesnt knew.
I only knew that if you fly the 109k4 corectly you didnt have any problems with la7s and spit16. you have one of the best planse in here.
And Guys Dont try to fly the 109s like a P51, Spit, FW, La7. The 109 is a plane for his own and you need to find out how the 109 works.
Belive me the 109 is god modeled. And the ta152 to but this is going to be a other tread......
cu chris3
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Basically, if you can't outturn a plane long enough to gain a gun solution without the use of flaps, then no amount of flaps are gonna help you - just don't use it at all. At least, I rarely use them in the 109.
I use them quite a lot, because it does seem to me that they help out in the scissors that you often find yourself involved in. No question that they don't help stabilize this very unstable airplane. Get good with the rudder, and assume that your plane is always on the verge of spinning.
- oldman
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Originally posted by SkevJ
I kind of like those planes because they are rarely used. Could anyone give me info from their point of view about the bf109's?
Take off, and fly with with caution to first place you can find a spit,
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The 109 is as good as most, just pick your method as dogfighting or boom and zoom.
The 109F is a very good dogfighter.
The 109G2 is a good accelerator and decent dogfighter. Good lala killer ;)
The 109G14 is faster, and the 109G6 packs a punch.
The 109K is very fast and has an insane ROC.
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How do you know, you don't fly any of those aircraft.
Since the update you have 5 kills in 109s, 3 in the F-4 and 2 in G-14. You died 6 times in the F-4 and 3 times in the G-14.
Making things up as you go again? Let me guess, you 'heard it somewhere'...
Anyone can get kills in any aircraft. That has nothing to do with how an aircraft is modeled or mis-modeled.
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We have h2h and,,,,,OFFLINE ;)
Been doing tests. (climb to alt mostly, and those won't be published...yet hehe)
I fight them as well. And most of my flights are actually scrambles. Live hard, die hard, hehe.
Nice to see that you have nothing to do anyway, mr. Bruno. Maybe you're going to tell me how much I actually did fly those?
Do you fly RL 109's? Do you know someone that did? Do you know someone that fought them?
Ahhh, wasting my time. But
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and the But:
The 109 is as good as most, just pick your method as dogfighting or boom and zoom.
The 109F is a very good dogfighter.
The 109G2 is a good accelerator and decent dogfighter. Good lala killer
The 109G14 is faster, and the 109G6 packs a punch.
The 109K is very fast and has an insane ROC.
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109G-14 feels heavy
is it me or 109G-14 is just heavy???
109G-14 should be lighter than that previous G model
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Originally posted by Angus
We have h2h and,,,,,OFFLINE ;)
Been doing tests. (climb to alt mostly, and those won't be published...yet hehe)
I fight them as well. And most of my flights are actually scrambles. Live hard, die hard, hehe.
Nice to see that you have nothing to do anyway, mr. Bruno. Maybe you're going to tell me how much I actually did fly those?
Do you fly RL 109's? Do you know someone that did? Do you know someone that fought them?
Ahhh, wasting my time. But
Yeah, you are wasting time posting your lies, I am sorry your 'I've heards...'
There's no 'fighting offline' and I would bet you have as much time in H2H in 109s as you do in the main.
Do you fly RL 109's? Do you know someone that did? Do you know someone that fought them?
I know a lot of people but that's here-nor-there. You certainly don't have any time flying real life 109s but here you are claiming expertise. Same goes for Spits for that matter, oops I forgot 'you hear lots of things...'