Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Oldman731 on January 10, 2006, 12:00:54 PM
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Slash picked up the RPS ball and brought it into the staff forum. Generally, I think we're all supporters of the idea. So here are some questions thrown out to solicit opinions:
- How long should the RPS run? Assuming that it's either PAC or ETO, sooner or later the people who are afficionados of the ignored plane set will grumble.
- Should it be PAC or ETO?
- (This is the one that I predict will cause the most concern): How should the plane set be divided? In ETO, for example, the early plane set will be the BoB aircraft, but what would come the next week, and the week after that, &c.?
- oldman
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For starters, why not alternate between ETO and PAC.
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I think the ETO would be easier to start with...
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Try ETO make it two weeks. Then run PTO for two weeks if possible.
I wouldn't rule out just making it Axis, and Allies period for two weeks allowing all aircraft to be used eventually.
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Im glad to see the CT staff consiedring this. Its shows a flexibility and openess that is refreshing for AH in general, and CT in particular.
Ive been sitting here for several minutes trying to think stuff up to suggest but in retrospect Im a better reactionary. I need stuff to work with.
Just come up with your best plan and we try it, then come we will back and see what works and what doesnt.
Although, Im growing fond of 190s so feel free to start with ETO :D
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Originally posted by Yeager
Although, Im growing fond of 190s so feel free to start with ETO :D
Time to change the spelling of your name to Jaeger.;)
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hasn't ETO pulled in higher numbers than PTO historically in the CT?
you know my answer :)
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Alternating between ETO and PTO seems like a good idea. The next question is, do people want the stages of the RPS to be balanced between allies and axis? Or do they want a "day in the sun" type RPS where planes that were historically dominant get a day of ownage?
Balanced RPS
1940: Spit I vs. 109E
1941: Spit V vs. 109F
1942: Spit IX vs. 190A/109G2
etc
Day in the Sun RPS
1940: Spit I vs. 109E
Early 41: Spit V vs. 109F
Late 41/Early 42: Spit V vs. 190A
Early/Mid 44: P-51B/D vs. 109G/190A
etc
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Although I currently don't have an AH subscription, it is things like this that begins to peek my interest again, so in the interest of developing a better arena I hope no one minds me throwing in my opinion as a "sideliner":)
First off as Shifty said I wouldn't be totally ignoring making the RPS an Allied vs Axis type setup. There would be two sides in the arena, add Axis planes to one side as the date progresses, following suit with the Allies. This would run for a one month cycle, progressing along a scaled timeline to mimic the war years, culminating with the final day of the cycle having all planes enabled for each respective side(aka the infamous "Jet Day")
That way you have the benefit of enjoying the entire planeset, with the opportunity to give the early war planes a try. Also by following a set timeline based upon release dates, I think you will end up with the "Day in the Sun" effect that Sable was talking about. I would prefer that method, but you have to consider what effect that might have on the numbers balance in the arena. Getting those individuals that have to jump to the side with the "best" plane can cause a disruption.
Now I know that the Axis vs Allied thing isn't truly historical, but it is a far better way to approach a planeset than the MA, imo and I believe would attract more people than the current CT approach. That would be the man attraction to the RPS, the greater numbers. I myself still would prefer a strict Historical arena, with reduced settings, only Bar Dar and a small planeset. But at this point in MMP online flight sim evolution I don't think that it can support enough numbers to justify it :(
Second to an Axis vs Allied setup I really think ETO would be the way to go. From popularity to the planeset it is definitely the better choice. Also as I said I think to get the real feel for it it has to last at least one month as a test.
It's great to see the staff posing these questions, because I know for a fact the real truth in succes or failure of any attempt lies in the planning of it.
Crown Bug '06 :aok
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Originally posted by Shifty
I wouldn't rule out just making it Axis, and Allies period for two weeks allowing all aircraft to be used eventually.
that is an appealing thought. I have an idea, this wouldn't be a rolling plane set as all would be enabled but perhaps if a larger map were used you could have early war to the south mid war, in the center and late war to the north. I would say a total of six bases where the aircraft were enabled but allowing people to land anywhere it was green to rearm or tower out.
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Originally posted by Sable
Alternating between ETO and PTO seems like a good idea. The next question is, do people want the stages of the RPS to be balanced between allies and axis? Or do they want a "day in the sun" type RPS where planes that were historically dominant get a day of ownage?
Balanced RPS
1940: Spit I vs. 109E
1941: Spit V vs. 109F
1942: Spit IX vs. 190A/109G2
etc
Day in the Sun RPS
1940: Spit I vs. 109E
Early 41: Spit V vs. 109F
Late 41/Early 42: Spit V vs. 190A
Early/Mid 44: P-51B/D vs. 109G/190A
etc
this is also a good idea, especially if the Hurricanes and 110s are left out.
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Ok, so here's my plan for an ETO 1 month RPS. I've noted where a sub is being made or some other special circumstance needs to be taken into account. I didn't bother listing the C-47 - if we want field capture it should always be available for both sides. If we want a one month cycle, that gives us about 2 months per day. This is based on June 1940 to April 1945 - 59 months divded by 28 to 31 days. This takes us up to Jan 1945 in a 28 day month, and gives us an extra day of late war in a 31 day month. I chose those dates as our earliest planes are BoB rides, and April was the last full month of the war in europe.
Besides the rps setup, it might be neat to change from the Channel/BoB map to the Rhine map in late 1944. It would also be kinda neat to change the weather settings with the seasons - i.e. low ceiling and vis in the winters, some puff clouds and higher ceilings in the spring and fall and severe clear in the summers.
Day 1: June/July 1940
Allies
Hurricane Mk I
Spitfire Mk I
*Blenheim (TBM3 - it can be used as a level bomber, and has a similar speed and only a slightly increased bomb load and defensive armament)
Axis
Bf109E
Bf110C
Ju87
Ju88
Day 4: Dec/Jan 1941
Allies - unchanged
Axis - Remove Bf110C (all zerstorer units had departed for other fronts)
Remove Ju87
Day 6: April/May 1941
Allies - add Spit Vb (only available at rear bases to reflect limited availability)
add Hurricane IIC (rear bases only)
add Boston III
remove Blenheim/TBM
Axis - add Bf109F (rear bases only - added prior to it's actual release because earlier 109F varients were in action)
Day 7: June/July 1941
Allies - remove Hurricane I
Spit V now available at all bases
Hurri IIC now available at all bases
Axis - remove Bf109E
Bf109F now available at all bases
Day 9: Oct/Nov 1941
Allies - remove Spit I
Axis - add Fw190A5 (rear bases only)
Day 11: Feb/Mar 1942
Allies - unchanged
Axis - Fw190A5 now available at all bases
Day 13: June/July 1942
Allies - add Spit IX (rear bases only)
Axis - Bf109F now available at rear bases only (was being phased out)
Day 14: Aug/Sept 1942
Allies - add B-17 (rear bases only)
remove Hurri IIC
Axis - add Bf109G2 (rear fields only - only used to re-equip a few units at first)
remove Bf109F
Day 16: Dec/Jan 1943
Allies - Spit IX now available at all bases
B-17 now available at all bases
Axis - unchanged
Day 18: Aprl/May 1943
Allies - add Spit VIII (rear fields only)
add P-47D11 (rear fields only)
add B-26 (rear fields only)
add B-24 (rear fields only)
Axis - add Bf109G6
Bf109G2 now available at all bases
Day 19: June/July 1943
Allies - add Typhoon (I kinda have a problem with this one, as our Typhoon vastly outperforms every other fighter at lower alts during this time period - maybe limit it to rear fields only)
Axis - unchanged
Day 20: August/Sept 1943
Allies - P-47D now available at all fields
Axis - add Bf110G (rear fields only - was used in limited numbers as a bomber destroyer over germany - not as a jabo attacking england)
Day 21: Oct/Nov 1943
Allies - add P-38G (rear fields only)
Axis - remove Bf109G2
Day 22: Dec/Jan 1944
Allies - add P-38J (rear fields only)
add P-51B (rear fields only)
Spit VIII now available at all fields
remove Spit V
Axis - unchanged
Day 23: Feb/Mar 1944
Allies - remove P-38G
Axis - add Fw190A8
Day 24: April/May 1944
Allies - add P-47D25 (rear fields only)
add P-51D (rear fields only)
add Spit XIV (rear fields only)
P-38J now available at all fields
P-51B now available at all fields
Axis - unchanged
Day 25: June/July 1944
Allies - add P-38L (rear fields only)
add Spit XVI
P-47D25 now available at all fields
P-51D now available at all fields
Typhoon now available at all fields, if it was limited previously
Axis - add Bf109G14
Day 26: August/Sept 1944
Allies - add Tempest V (rear fields only)
P-38L now available at all fields
Axis - add Me163 (HQ field only)
remove Fw190A5
Day 27: Oct/Nov 1944
Allies - unchanged
Axis - add Bf109K
add Fw190D (yes, the early ones didn't quite have the performance of ours for another month or so, but in light of all the allied rides available, I think this is ok)
add Me262 (HQ field only)
Day 28: Dec/Jan 1945
Allies - Spit XIV now available at all fields
Tempest V now available at all fields
add P-47D40
Axis - add Ta152H (HQ field only - extremely rare, subject to same level of restriction as the jets)
add Ar234 (HQ field only)
Day 29: Feb/Mar 1945
Allies - add P-47N (rear fields only - sub for 47M)
Axis - unchanged
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Looks like you put a lot of work into that. But thats over two weeks of basically spits, and hurris against 109s, and 190s.
The RPS can be run in two weeks and get all the aircraft in it.:aok
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Well, just take the above dates and divide by two and we have a two week RPS if that is more to peoples liking.
I could try to put something together for the mediterranean, russia, and the pacific if people like as well.
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Excellent effort Sable
! Don't listen to that old crotch Shifty.
I'd be interested in seeing your layout for a PTO and if possible an Axis vs Allied RPS.
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The one large benefit of using all theaters in an Axis vs Allied RPS is with the Japanese planes, the Axis will always have a decent TnB counter to the Spits of a particular time period. The Zeke's/109's/190s combo will give the Allies some serious difficulty, much more so than PTO or ETO planes alone.
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Excelent Plan Sable! !
While I also agree it is a little heavy on Spitfires, that is pretty much the way it was historically.
I also have issue with dropping the 190A5. At that time Germany was putting everything in the air they could lay their hands on.
I would also like to see your plan for a PTO and a Two-Week ETO based on the plan above.
Do we still have the Large ETO map? Would have to have it IMHO to put this plan into operation.
Again, Well Done Sable! :aok
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What would people think of a theater swtich +1 "year" ?
for example you would start with BoB (ETO, '40) then move to 41-42 PTO (guadalcanal type planeset) then back to ETO but now moving into a 42/43 time frame (spit vb, 47D11, 38G, etc. vs A5, F4, G2, etc.) then back and add.
My worry would be 2 weeks of any setup, even if there's an evolving planeset may start to grow old. Also I think that breaking down each theater into 3 time frames may be more simple than trying to follow a year to year strategy. The idea being a plane that entered service in december 1943 being included in a "1943" and uncalancing things. A 42/43 or "mid war" would allow the staff some flexibility. ALso they could choose to limited some rides thus one week we could have a RAF focused 43 ETO setup next time around it could be USAAF vs LW.
Any thoughts? It's the end of the day here @ the office and I'm not even sure I'm making any sense here. :)
Edit also if we shift focus we could see some interesting setups like SpitVIII's vs the IJN. It was my understanding that the VIII almost universally went to the pacific theater?
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Originally posted by Grits
The one large benefit of using all theaters in an Axis vs Allied RPS is with the Japanese planes, the Axis will always have a decent TnB counter to the Spits of a particular time period. The Zeke's/109's/190s combo will give the Allies some serious difficulty, much more so than PTO or ETO planes alone.
While I agree that all of the time periods would be better balanced this way, the drawback is that it almost completely eliminates the historical aspect of the rolling plane set. Which is a big part of the reason for doing it, yes?
And mil gracias to Sable, a lot of effort went into that.
- oldman
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My reasoning for dropping the 190A5 was that it was completely replaced by the A8 at that point in the OOB sheets I was looking at - they just ran out of them and the factories were making A8s by then. But I can't imagine it would be a huge deal to keep them on. All the rest of the dates were based on when units were flying that aircraft in action in theater - thus the reason for dropping older planes.
With regards to PTO, would people prefer to seperate it from the CBI, or roll them both together? (I believe we end up seeing the P-51s and Ki84 earlier if we include the CBI)
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Originally posted by Sable
With regards to PTO, would people prefer to seperate it from the CBI, or roll them both together? (I believe we end up seeing the P-51s and Ki84 earlier if we include the CBI)
I think that is going to be dependent on the scale of the map we have. Do we have a PTO map (That includes the CBI) of a size as the large ETO map we used to fly on in AHI?
Another thing will have to be factored in if we use the CBI - many older planes went on flying there - P-40 for example - than they did in the rest of the PTO. We are missing a main player for the CBI in the Japanese OSCAR - but that could probabily be subbed by the A6M2 ZERO.
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I'm wondering what the response is from our Northern European friends seeing the FM2's and Yaks left out of the setup entirely?
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Ok, well if we stick to just the PTO (phillipines, new guinea, solomons, carrier battles/raids, phillipines, okinawa, home islands) I'm thinking something like this. Dec 1941 to Aug 1945 gives us about 3 months per day for a 14 day RPS.
Once again, we could do a map change towards the end from Solomons to Okinawa. Weather should probably alternate between lots of puffy clouds but no ceilings, and clear.
Day 1: Dec/Jan/Feb 1942
Allies
P-40B
P-40E
B-17 (due to the armament difference between our G, the D/Es in use, it might be a good idea to disable formations early on)
F4F
SBD
TBD (subbed with the TBM)
Axis
A6M2
B5N
D3A
G3M/G4M (subbed by Ju88 - the bombload is too high, but the other options are just too fast - more reason to disable formations at this point)
Day 2: March/April/May 1942
Allies - add B-25 (sub B-26)
Axis - unchanged
Day 3: June/July/Aug 1942
Allies - add A-20 (rear fields only, as it can outrun the A6M)
remove P-40B
Axis - unchanged
Day 4: Sep/Oct/Nov 1942
Allies - add P-38G (rear fields only)
Axis - unchanged
Day 6: March/April/May 1943
Allies - add F4U-1 (rear fields only, not available on carriers)
add B-24J (bomber formations can probably be enabled at this point as the IJAAF now has something that can intercept the A-20)
P-38G now available at all fields
Axis - add Ki61
Day 7: June/July/Aug 1943
Allies - add P-47D11
Axis - add A6M5
Day 8: Sept/Oct/Nov 1943
Allies - add F6F
F4U-1 now available at all fields, and carriers
Axis - unchanged
Day 9: Dec/Jan/Feb/March 1944
Allies - add P-38J
Axis - unchanged
Day 10: April/May/June 1944
Allies - add F4U-1D
add FM2 (carriers only)
remove F4F
Axis - add Ki-67
remove Ju88
Day 11: July/Aug/Sept/Oct 1944
Allies - Add P-38L
Add P-47D25
remove P-38G
Axis - add Ki84
Day 12: Nov/Dec/Jan 1944
Allies - unchanged
Axis - add N1K2
Day 13: Feb/Mar/April 1945
Allies - add P-47N (rear fields only)
add P-51D (rear fields only)
add F4U-1C (rear fields only)
add F4U-4 (rear fields only)
remove P-47D11 and D25
P-40 and P-38s now available at rear fields only (they didn't see much action at the end)
Axis - unchanged
Day 14: May/June/July/Aug 1945
unchanged
The downside I see to this is that Japan has to go so long between fighter upgrades, but at least they kind of keep pace with the Allies. The A6M2 has been retained throughout to cover as the Oscar.
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Originally posted by Sundiver
I'm wondering what the response is from our Northern European friends seeing the FM2's and Yaks left out of the setup entirely?
I was thinking it might be neat to put together a shorter (because of the very limited planset) Russian front setup (and maybe a seperate short Med setup as well) to slot between the ETO and PTO.
So maybe 2 weeks ETO, a week Ostfront, 2 weeks PTO, a week Med or something along those lines.
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Originally posted by Sundiver
I'm wondering what the response is from our Northern European friends seeing the FM2's and Yaks left out of the setup entirely?
Homer Simpson "DOH!" :rolleyes:
NOTES ON 14 day PTO:
DAY 1:
The Boston might be a better sub for the G3M/G4M than the JU88 except for the speed and inability to carry Torps. Just give the Allies A-20's from the start.
DAY 5: go ahead and give the Japanese the A6M5 ZEKE as the A6M3. They have a heavy Allied plane-set staring them down already, won't hurt to give them a little slack.
DAY 8:
The Hellcat was in service on CV's long before the Corsair was. Might wan't to not enable it on the CV's till the time you have out for F4U-1D. Was the F4U-1 even flown off CV's?
P-51B's were flown in the CBI in early 1944(?) but if we are staying to Western Pacific it won't be an issue.
Looks good Sable - good work. Don't mean to "Nit-Pick" too much - just putting my opinions in from flying both sides of the fence. Big thing here is it is going to translate out to MUCH work for the CT Staff.
! :aok
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Originally posted by Oldman731
While I agree that all of the time periods would be better balanced this way, the drawback is that it almost completely eliminates the historical aspect of the rolling plane set. Which is a big part of the reason for doing it, yes?
Yes, this is a good point too.
How about combine an RPS with Bug's "squad highlight" idea and Sables "day in the sun" idea. As part of the RPS, when the time period or location is right do a day or two of the RPS as a "JG54 Eastern Front" focus with the planes that squad flew and flew against, as much as we can with the plane types we have. Next couple of days, if it is the right time or location do some other squad, maybe try to get some of the P-38 squads from the MA for a PTO day or two focusing on the 38 in the Solomans/New Guinea. Or try to entice the 56th FG with an ETO day or two highlighting them and the P-47. You could easily do all of this as part of an RPS evolution and add some historical flavor to it.
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be careful not to get too complicated with RPS implimentation.
I only worry that a month in a single theater is a bit long on the tooth but Im game.
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Originally posted by Yeager
be careful not to get too complicated with RPS implimentation.
I only worry that a month in a single theater is a bit long on the tooth but Im game.
Agreed. Two week RPS is perfect, otherwise it's too drawn out. One reason people wanted a RPS was because so often so many planes are never used. The one month RPS is going to be basically what we have had. Mainly Spitfires, and 109s , then after more than two weeks............. Here have some more spitfires, and 109s, and maybe a P-47, or P-38.
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I agree. two weeks is about all I would spend in the PTO portion of the set up. I like the idea though. will you be implementing it soon?
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Ok, here's the same ETO stuff but in a two week format.
Day 1: June/July/Aug/Sep 1940
Allies
Hurricane Mk I
Spitfire Mk I
*Blenheim (TBM3 - it can be used as a level bomber, and has a similar speed and only a slightly increased bomb load and defensive armament)
Axis
Bf109E
Bf110C
Ju87
Ju88
Day 3: Feb/Mar/April/May 1941
Allies - add Spit Vb
add Hurricane IIC
add Boston III
remove Blenheim/TBM
Axis - add Bf109F
Remove Bf110C (all zerstorer units had departed for other fronts)
Remove Ju87
Day 4: June/July/Aug/Sep 1941
Allies - remove Hurricane I
Axis - remove Bf109E
Day 5: Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan 1942
Allies - remove Spit I
Axis - add Fw190A5
Day 6: Feb/Mar/April/May 1942
Allies - unchanged
Axis - Bf109F available at rear fields only (being phased out in favor of the 190)
Day 7: June/July/Aug/Sept 1942
Allies - add Spit IX (rear bases only)
add B-17 (rear bases only)
remove Hurri IIC
Axis - add Bf109G2 (rear fields only - only used to re-equip a few units at first)
remove Bf109F
Day 8: Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan 1943
Allies - Spit IX now available at all bases
B-17 now available at all bases
add B-24
Axis - unchanged
Day 9: Feb/Mar/Aprl/May 1943
Allies - add Spit VIII (rear fields only)
add P-47D11 (rear fields only)
add B-26 (rear fields only)
Axis - add Bf109G6
Bf109G2 now available at all bases
Day 10: June/July/Aug/Sept 1943
Allies - add Typhoon (I kinda have a problem with this one, as our Typhoon vastly outperforms every other fighter at lower alts during this time period - maybe limit it to rear fields only)
P-47D now available at all fields
Axis - add Bf110G (rear fields only - was used in limited numbers as a bomber destroyer over germany - not as a jabo attacking england)
Day 11: Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan 1944
Allies - add P-38G (rear fields only)
add P-38J (rear fields only)
add P-51B (rear fields only)
Spit VIII now available at all fields
B26 now available at all fields
remove Spit V
Axis - remove Bf109G2
Day 12: Feb/Mar/Apr/May 1944
Allies - remove P-38G
add P-47D25 (rear fields only)
add P-51D (rear fields only)
add Spit XIV (rear fields only)
P-38J now available at all fields
P-51B now available at all fields
Axis - add Fw190A8
Day 13: June/July/Aug/Sep 1944
Allies - add P-38L
add Spit XVI
P-47D25 now available at all fields
P-51D now available at all fields
Typhoon now available at all fields, if it was limited previously
add Tempest V (rear fields only)
Axis - add Bf109G14
add Me163 (HQ field only)
Day 14: Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan 1945
Allies - Spit XIV now available at all fields
Tempest V now available at all fields
add P-47D40
add P-47N (rear fields only - sub for 47M)
Axis - add Bf109K
add Fw190D
add Me262 (HQ field only)
remove Fw190A5
add Ta152H (HQ field only - extremely rare, subject to same level of restriction as the jets)
add Ar234 (HQ field only)
Latewar winds up getting cut off somewhat, but given how much of that people get in the MA, I don't think it's a huge problem.
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Originally posted by Sable
I was thinking it might be neat to put together a shorter (because of the very limited planset) Russian front setup (and maybe a seperate short Med setup as well) to slot between the ETO and PTO.
So maybe 2 weeks ETO, a week Ostfront, 2 weeks PTO, a week Med or something along those lines.
I agree Sable. Not trying to rock the boat, (for once), I just know there's been alot of work put into those Finruss maps to see them put aside. Not to mention some damned good sticks and nice guys up there that fly the CT on a fairly regular basis, yanno? Otherwise is sounds like an interesting idea even if I wouldn't fly an ETO setup that much.
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Move B-24's to DAY 8 and give them same availability as B-17's.
The 8th AF had at least 2 Groups of Lib's in action by that date.
Other than that, looks damn good to me. ! :aok
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Originally posted by Jester
Move B-24's to DAY 8 and give them same availability as B-17's.
The 8th AF had at least 2 Groups of Lib's in action by that date.
Other than that, looks damn good to me. ! :aok
Fixed - thanks for the input!
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Thanks Sabel. That looks good, I think all your work has been great. The month long thing may catch on. It just seemed too long , but thats just my opinon. Thanks for the effort.:aok
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I'm liking what I'm seeing here - kick this thing off! I had a wishlist that we get some kind of rolling year-by-year planeset, but I'll definitely go with this setup in an axis & allies arena.
I'm definitely IN - I'm tired of the MA's constant LA7 & Spit XVI nonsense.
EagleDNY :aok
$.02
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One of the best ideas I've seen in AH in a long time. Good work ...im in.
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I would suggest not removing the 109E on day 4, they were still used on the Eastern Front, especially by the Axis satellite countries, until late '42 or early '43.
The Romanians didn't lose them until several months after Stalingrad.
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Sable I hope you're getting paid for all this effort... hehe. Great attention to details. The only thing I'd like to ask is avoidance of furball. Instead of putting opposing airbases near by each other, where you have to maximize your alt at relatively short distance, place the airfields away. Maybe place Vehicle bases close to each other. I have an idea but I just can't seem to write it down clearly.
I can't wait for the RPS
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hmm this rps idea seems to be coming along pretty well, might have to re-activate my account and try it out!
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Originally posted by Treize69
I would suggest not removing the 109E on day 4, they were still used on the Eastern Front, especially by the Axis satellite countries, until late '42 or early '43.
The Romanians didn't lose them until several months after Stalingrad.
the set-up says ETO theater and it does not include the Russians in the east. ETO is the western front fight between Allied (Royal Air Force and US Army Air Force) vs Luftwaffe. If i recall 109Es in the west were phased out much earlier than those serving in Eastern front and Mediterranean.
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Is the MTO included with the ETO...?