Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on January 14, 2006, 09:32:58 PM
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No doubt most have heard the story. What I find troubling is that Police knew the gun was not a lethal weapon, and would not allow the young boys father in to try and talk his son out of making a fatal mistake.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/14/teen.shot/index.html
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Bull**** the police knew it was not a real gun. Right now there are so many conflicting stories out. It would not surprise me if someone was actually trying to throw a bad light on the police.
Edit: Actually, I've been thinking about it. If the police were told that the gun might be fake, would they nonchalantly assume it is?
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Young boy Bain Dead BEFORE pointing air gun at Police
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Pretty sad situation. It's easy to blame the police on this but I keep in mind that it was the kids actions that put them there. Pretty tragic, sounds like the cops blew it.
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Point a gun at a police officer and you take your chances. It was suicide by police, plain and simple.
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I blame the cops. If it were not for the cops, this kid would be alive today.
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Better now as an airgun, than 3 years from now with a shotgun. People blaming the cops, just hate cops i guess. Im sure they said" Ya chief..they say its a bb gun...but we can still waste him...right?"
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Its easy for me or anyone else to second guess the cops they have a hard crappy job dealing with the kind of people that they do.
But someone with a scope should have been able to tell if it was a real gun or not.
The average target engagment for a police sniper is 75 yds or less so even a 4x scope would give enough detail to see what kind of gun it was.
Clearly the kid was troubled and after columbine the cops just aint gonna take any chances.
I feel sorry for the poor cop that shot the kid only to find out it was a pelet gun
it will be hard for him to deal with im sure.
A bad situation all the way around.
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This just in... the police are not playing a game.
Prime candidate for a Darwin award IMHO.
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I agree SM, but in this case I feel it is unusually pathetic.
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police are a necessary evil. most are alright but like everything else theres always gotta be some that abuse their power
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so many guns, so much trouble...:confused:
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More guns = less troubles
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bain dead is always a bad thing
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Originally posted by Nilsen
bain dead is always a bad thing
Yea, look at Beet1e.
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Originally posted by Delirium
Yea, look at Beet1e.
beatle is not baind dead, he is just british
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On a related note the district attourney just sued a police officer in finland for firing at a convenient store robber who tried to run him over with his getaway car.
'Officer was trying to kill the criminal' he shot 6 rounds at the approaching car, one round hit the upper torso of the burglar. Is that f'ed up or what? The officer shot a fleeing criminal for christs sake!
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I wouldn't call myself a fan of the police, especially the local ones around here, but good lord. If you point a gun at a police officer is he going to wait for you to pull the trigger and send a bullet at his head? I don't care if a sniper could identify it as "fake" you point a GUN at a COP and your are DEAD.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Is that f'ed up or what?
Totally...
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Bull**** the police knew it was not a real gun. Right now there are so many conflicting stories out. It would not surprise me if someone was actually trying to throw a bad light on the police.
Edit: Actually, I've been thinking about it. If the police were told that the gun might be fake, would they nonchalantly assume it is?
What this article does NOT say, is that the orange end cap was painted black. So I'm assuming you wouldn't have pulled the trigger after knowing this FACT?
I agree 100% Sandman.
Karaya
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Because a pellet to the eye and bouncing around in your soft gray matter can't kill you right? It's still a lethal weapon.
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ripley and mora... I would ten times rather have someone shoot at me than to atempt to run me over with a car.
And... Apparently beets country believes that more guns = less trouble as more and more of their police force is being armed every year.
All the finger pointing little socialist lilly white countries are laughable. As their minorities go up so does their crime and they simply don't and won't know how to handle it....
As allways... we are decades ahead of the trends here in the states.
lazs
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they were in a confined school hallway with probably poor lighting.. i dont think swat had broken out the rifles just yet
there is a very good reason they put the safety colors on guns like those. had it been a real weapon and the officers assumed it wasn't they might be burying a couple more honest people instead of one very dumb kid. no one to blame but himself.
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Lazs - there are still many good areas in this country where you can enjoy that Church bingo night feeling.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Young boy Bain Dead BEFORE pointing air gun at Police
no chit
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What this article does NOT say, is that the orange end cap was painted black. So I'm assuming you wouldn't have pulled the trigger after knowing this FACT?
I only skimmed the article. In another article I did see that the orange cap was painted black. So I just assumed CNN would say it too.
Wait, I assumed CNN would say that? BAD LASER! BAD LASER!
It's very easy to throw around if's and but's now on this board. But you have to analyze the position of the men on the ground. Even if it was reported that the gun was fake, the police couldn't take this for gospel. The gun looked identical to a 92FS (or so reported). Until that cop held that fake gun in his hand, he couldn't have been sure it was real.
And then the kid TREATED the gun as if it were real. He threatened to kill himself, then he ***TRIED TO AIM*** the gun at the SWAT officer. In that situation, the officer had to act or risk being shot on faulty information.
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http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060115/D8F4PQT03.html
LONGWOOD, Fla. (AP) - The parents of a 15-year-old boy accused of terrorizing classmates with a pistol warned authorities the weapon likely was fake before police shot him in a middle school bathroom, a family attorney said Saturday.
The parents told the police that the kid ****PROBABLY**** had a fake pistol.
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Sad story all the way around
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Yea, it was a no win all around. Fault the cops all you want but it wont work (well, not that the lawyers will heed it).
*Probably* a fake gun? And if it wasnt and we were burying a cop and a kid now?
I dont know about police but probablies and hopefully's are dangerous things to live around
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Criminal Mind: 'Hey, if we paint a red band around the muzzel of the uzi's, the cops'll think we have pellet guns and not shoot.. and that could give us all the edge we need to waste those pigs before they waste US!'
The 'color coded' caps crap is just that.. liberal feel good BS that does not in the slightest affect the situation posed by any individual waving around what looks like a gun in a threating manner.
I'd say the cops reacted no diffrently to a firearm threat than I would..
Point a bar of soap at me that looks like any kind of firearm and I WILL shoot twice for center of mass and once for the head.
Welcome to Reality, Kid. Shame your exposure to it was terminal. Say 'hi' to Chuck Darwin for us.
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well.... it would have been very unlikely to have happened years ago... we could ride our bikes with rifles across the bars and a cop would maybe stop us to check if it was loaded..... he wouldn't have called 600 swat team guys or.... even called backup..
If we mouthed off he would pushed us around... if we attacked him he would beat the crap out of us (he wasn't a 5' woman in those days)... if it got ugly he woulda used a nightstick..
Some of the problems we have are from making the cops less and less able to use their own judgement and affirmative action useless police officers hired. Taking away the option of useing a nightstick..
lazs
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Yeag, I thought you were smarter than that. You are way out of line with your first post. Did you bother to even look at the photo's in the article you linked??
For the armchair quarterbacks safe in their postion in front of a keyboard instead of the field. There is something you need to keep in mind.
Police Officers, Deputy's and so on are NOT paid to die on the job. They are paid, rather poorly, to RISK that situation, not surrender to it, just to make sure a suspect's threat is real.
Any tactical situation is for real. There is no "do over" and you do not pop back up all hale and healthy in a freaking tower so you can keep playing. The mistake you make may be what your family will have to live with when you are gone after making that mistake.
The Officers / Deputy's responding were told that a student has a firearm. They HAVE to assume it is true and act accordingly. Once the weapon threat is made, the assumption remains that it IS real until it is PROVEN that it is not a real weapon. That will only happen once the weapon and suspect are secure. Secure means that the weeapon is no longer in the suspects hands and the suspect himself / herself is secured. This is the same for a firearm, knife, rock or stick. Even then you can't relax as there may be another suspect that no one knows about, yet.
The suspects actions also lend credibility to the validity of the threat. He claimed he wanted to kill himself, pointed the weapon at himself as if he was going to commit suicide and in everyones statements about it, behaved as if the weapon was a real firearm.
There is no excuse for what the "kid" did. No one made him bring that item to school. No one forced him to try to take multiple hostages. No one forced him to remain in the building refusing to surrender. No one forced him to keep the gun in his possession. Finally no one forced him to point it at a Deputy. He made those decisions on his own.
Unfortunately there are several folks who will have to live with the decisions that STUPID kid made. The family of the kid, the Deputy that had to make a life or death decision in less than a second, and his family. That doesn't even include the students that STUPID kid traumatized during this situation or the school staff and faculty who will deal with this for a long time.
Some of you folks really need to get out in the world and see what it is like in real life instead of computer games. You want to blame the Cop who had to be there and deal with the situation this kid forced on him. That is so damn stupid. You really ought to try and think about who the real protagonist in this entire situation was. If you can't do that, at least STFU and let those far more qualified investigate it and spoon feed you in small bits so you can understand it.
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Fuggin-A right Mav.
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Maverick, I do entirely agree with your point.
However I do have one question here, given this kid had no hostages, what was the non-lethal option? I know in NZ either a dog, tazer, or non-lethal (leg) shot would have been the first option.
Whats the US Police policy like on this?
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being a UK resident you might have your preconceptions of what my views will be.
you're probably wrong.
the idiot took a weapon (a length of 30lb fishing line can be used to kill someone) to a school, pointed it at the police, and then payed the price for his total stupidity..
eskimo summed it up 100%
"kid brain dead BEFORE pointing air rifle at police"
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Non lethal option is for when the person is not a direct threat to everyone around them. I.E. Hippies protesting.
When hippies protest, they do not have weapons at all, so when they break the law, there is no problem tazering them into submission.
However, any non lethal option still compromises the safety of the user at the hands of the target.
To tazer someone, you have to be visible and close.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Maverick, I do entirely agree with your point.
However I do have one question here, given this kid had no hostages, what was the non-lethal option? I know in NZ either a dog, tazer, or non-lethal (leg) shot would have been the first option.
Whats the US Police policy like on this?
Someone points a gun at a cop, the best option is to shoot them dead before they can shoot the cop.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Maverick, I do entirely agree with your point.
However I do have one question here, given this kid had no hostages, what was the non-lethal option? I know in NZ either a dog, tazer, or non-lethal (leg) shot would have been the first option.
Whats the US Police policy like on this?
Vulcan non lethal response to a lethal threat is a good way to get very dead very fast. Tazer takes time. Tazer is good as a distance weapon against a contact weapon wielding suspect. Not against a suspect with another distance weapon.
The kid already had a deadly weapon threat presented to the Deputy. It's not time to try options at that point. If the kid had a stick or knife and was more than 10 feet away, maybe then but only if the deputy had the tazer ready. Reaction time is against the Deputy, he was only going to get one chance and had to have already made the decision to do what he did once a triger point was passed. Pointing a gun at him is certainly a trigger point.
Just out of curiosity given the situation that actually happened. Exactly what would you have done? No second guessing, no after the fact information, just a person with a gun who won't talk, negotiate and suddenly points it at you. You have less than 3/10 of a second to decide what to do AND do it. What would you do?
FWIW. Dogs aren't bullet proof and they take time. A shot to the leg will not stop the suspect shooting you and will not stop them from continuing to shoot until they run out of shells. A tazer will not fire, make contact and render the suspect harmless in the time the suspect has to shoot using a lethal weapon.
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Its interesting, in NZ the approach would've been what I described. Most commonly a dog is sent in, and there have been a few cases of dogs getting shot (plus making recoveries!). I can think of a few where the offender aimed a weapon at police. However, at no stage did our police present themselves as a clear target - maybe thats the difference.
The only recent examples of police killing I can think of was one a few years back where a cop was killed and the killer went on the run, and when cornered died in a "shootout". The other was when a guy was going absolutely nuts in a small town and charged a police officer with an axe.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
being a UK resident you might have your preconceptions of what my views will be.
you're probably wrong.
the idiot took a weapon (a length of 30lb fishing line can be used to kill someone) to a school, pointed it at the police, and then payed the price for his total stupidity..
eskimo summed it up 100%
"kid brain dead BEFORE pointing air rifle at police"
Ummm, while I have no problem with the cops decision to shoot the kid, I do have a problem with your view. Its simplistic. What we have here is a kid with issues, takes an air-pistol to school, and gets suicide by cop. Hell, when I was young me and a friend used to play pain-ball, its like paint-ball with air rifles/pistols (we wore face masks for eye protection). Hurt like crap but certainly wasn't lethal. When you hit puberty where you level headed? clear thinking? did you have any troubles as a teen?
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Originally posted by moose
they were in a confined school hallway with probably poor lighting.. i dont think swat had broken out the rifles just yet
I have a friend in a swat unit he told me that sharpshooters are always deployed . You might not see them but they are there providing intell and ready to take the shot if needed.
He also told me that pelet gun or "real" gun if it was pointed at the officers
they would shoot without question.
I think there is no right or wrong in this case the kid was wacked and the cops had to do what we pay em for and that is to serve and protect.
Everybody hurts on this one the kids family the cop that shot him and us as a society because we are becoming more and more amune to the violence.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Ummm, while I have no problem with the cops decision to shoot the kid, I do have a problem with your view. Its simplistic. What we have here is a kid with issues, takes an air-pistol to school, and gets suicide by cop. Hell, when I was young me and a friend used to play pain-ball, its like paint-ball with air rifles/pistols (we wore face masks for eye protection). Hurt like crap but certainly wasn't lethal. When you hit puberty where you level headed? clear thinking? did you have any troubles as a teen?
Geebuz I remember playing war games with my friends using our bb guns popping each other in the butt :O
We did not pump them but once so they would not penetrate but sure stung like he11:O
I can only imagine doing that these days and someone seeing it :O
Swat teams ATF the whole law enforcement community would be on us.
MY MY how times have changed.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Ummm, while I have no problem with the cops decision to shoot the kid, I do have a problem with your view. Its simplistic. What we have here is a kid with issues, takes an air-pistol to school, and gets suicide by cop. Hell, when I was young me and a friend used to play pain-ball, its like paint-ball with air rifles/pistols (we wore face masks for eye protection). Hurt like crap but certainly wasn't lethal. When you hit puberty where you level headed? clear thinking? did you have any troubles as a teen?
simplistic? yup, and so was this scenario.
the kid must have seen the columbine reports, and others.
he pointed a 'gun' at an armed police officer.
If anyone points a gun at you from close range, you dont want to shoot him in the leg, you want to kill him or knock him out cold. a wound in the leg doesnt mean he cant pull the trigger and destroy your life.
This kid should have known what was happening, he screwed up and it cost him.
natural selection.
he said he was gunna kill himself anyhow.
sure, i had troubles when i was a teen, i still have troubles as an adult. i just go out and get drunk or high with my friends, or enjoy some bed time activities with a female.
taking a gun to school, even before the columbine incedent, is just plain stupid even in my country. in America where even the bus driver carry guns is just pure idiocy.
im sorry to sound harsh, and it would break my heart if it was my kid, but he may as well have gone and played on the highway on a blind corner.
he deserved what he got.
what if he had shot another kids eye out? or worse?
nope, this kid was deluded, better off dead.
ever seen Swallows and Amazans written by Arther Ransom?
famous and profound quote to the children off on a sailing trip from their uncle.
"If not duffers, wont drown. If duffers, better off drowned"
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Fake Gun
(http://img71.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Harenil/glock.jpg)
Real Gun
(http://www.gunshopfinder.com/Glock/G19.jpg)
Now, somebody tell me the difference, while being held by a moving target.
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either way im getting the heck out of the way if hes pointing one at me.
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Its interesting, in NZ the approach would've been what I described. Most commonly a dog is sent in, and there have been a few cases of dogs getting shot (plus making recoveries!). I can think of a few where the offender aimed a weapon at police. However, at no stage did our police present themselves as a clear target - maybe thats the difference.
If I was the dog's trainer (most trainers would probably agree with me), I would not send in the dog to attack a guy with a gun. Here in the US, the dogs are Police Officers and are valued.
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Yep... we used to take rifles and pistols to school to compete in NRA sponsored target shooting that the school bussed us to.... we thought that they were really getting silly when they asked us to have a gun bag for the gun.
Now... we have "gun free zones" at school so that they will ostensibly be safer.... No kid ever got shot by a cop at any of the schools I went to.
lazs
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from the Washington Times..
British lawmakers are being urged to ease a ban on handguns so Britain’s champion shooters can train for the Olympics.
Competitors currently must travel to Switzerland, where their guns are kept locked in an armory at a shooting range in Zurich, the Times of London reported.
The ban was imposed after the 1996 massacre of 16 children and a teacher at Dunblane Primary School in Scotland by a gun collector.
A dispensation for handguns was granted during the Manchester Commonwealth Games in 2002, but the rules were so strict that some international teams lodged complaints, and are now asking for better conditions for the London Olympics in 2012, the newspaper said.
Shooters were escorted from Heathrow Airport under armed guard and their guns were taken in an armored vehicle to the national shooting center. Spectators had to watch events behind screens and shooters were guarded by armed officers.
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Now that, is funny.
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Boy, I just love how the media turns this crap around. Heres the real deal here. I live in the local area here a clip from the local news. I will say I'm sorry for the child, but I don't buy the Fathers story.
LONGWOOD, Fla. -- Mourners emerged from a church carrying candles, sobbing and hugging each other after a memorial service Sunday for a 15-year-old boy who died two days after being shot by deputies at his middle school.
Friends and family members visited Landmark Community church for an evening vigil for Christopher Penley, who was officially pronounced dead at 4:57 a.m. Sunday, the Seminole County Sheriff's Office said in a statement posted on its Web site.
Penley had been described as brain dead since about 10:30 a.m. Saturday, but was kept alive so his organs could be harvested, said Mark Nation, a lawyer for Penley's parents. Funeral arrangements for the boy were pending.
The media was barred from entering the church located near Penley's neighborhood, which has been reeling from the Friday shooting at Milwee Middle School. Family and friends say the boy was emotionally troubled, reportedly bullied at school and had run away from home several times.
"There were a lot of songs, praying, the minister spoke a few times -- trying to comfort the family that he's in a better place," said Heather Sinclair, who mentored Penley in elementary school in Winter Springs.
Pastor Robbie Hall said he addressed the roughly 135 people in the church with a message of peace. Outside, 18-year-old Steven Lewis, who had known Penley for five years, said the teen "got along with everyone."
"Everyone was his best friend," Lewis said. "He's still with me in my heart."
The service took place two days after Penley was shot.Authorities said he took to school a pellet gun that closely resembled a 9mm handgun. After a classroom scuffle in which he struggled with another boy over the gun, he was cornered by sheriff's deputies and a SWAT team in a school bathroom, authorities said.
Seminole County Sheriff Don Eslinger said the boy was suicidal, vowed to die during the incident and couldn't be talked into surrendering the weapon. Eslinger says Penley was shot after raising the gun at a deputy.
No other students or school staff at the 1,100-student school in suburban Orlando were injured.
Eslinger said Friday it wasn't until after the incident that authorities realized the weapon was only a pellet gun. But Nation said Saturday Ralph Penley told authorities it wasn't a real gun on a cell phone as he rushed to the school after hearing of the incident. Nation said police wouldn't let Ralph Penley inside when he arrived.
"If Christopher was alive and (Ralph Penley) was able to go into the school, he would've been able to talk him out of it," Nation said. "He did everything he could to avoid this situation."
However, Nation said he didn't know the precise timeline of events, including whether Christopher had died before Ralph Penley arrived. He said he'd be investigating the incident further.
Seminole County Sheriff's Lt. Dennis Lemma said Sunday the department had no immediate comment on Nation's statement.
However, the Orlando Sentinel reported Sunday that Eslinger said Ralph Penley wasn't told of the events until after his son was shot.
"It's a total misunderstanding," Eslinger told the newspaper.