Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sloehand on January 17, 2006, 10:20:15 PM
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Is spawning a tank with the turret already reversed 180 degrees caused by some manipulative cheat or not?
If it is, why is it tolerated?
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Sounds like lag to me.
I bet he was moving his turret long before the game updated you with his position. Don't freak.
Anyhow, why are you spawn camping anyhow? Isn't that 'gamey'?
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Yeah, same deal with getting shot by an invisable panzer while camping. It all depends on how long it takes for them to appear on your screen. If the lag is bad enough, he could sit there for 5 minutes, drink a beer, and then shoot you just as he appears on your screen. :D
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Suppose I should have added info here. Several people doing the spawn camping saw exact same thing, with the dame person at the same time. Was an immediate topic of discussion. Also, its the same people doing the reverse turret thing consistantly - different days, different bases, same 180 degree reversal once they realize you've camped their hanger.
And finally, I (and others) have tried to reverse turret around on spawn campers since day one. I know its not conclusive, but I've always been killed before my turret gets halfway around. Can't believe that I don't get the same lag benefit as others at least once, if lag were the cause. And that lag would have to be at least 8 seconds long. Go ahead and time it. Spawn panzer, enter gun position, immediately rotate turret to fire into Indestructable behind hangar - 8 seconds. That's a damn long lag.
As for spawn camping, it's a behavior allowed by the game not a cheat. It may be an unfortunate part of the game, but its like base CAP, which is just a nice term for vulching, which EVERYONE does. What is NOT part of the game is to artificially effect or impact the intended runtime of the AH program, by any external means, i.e. cheating.
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i don't know but, i spawned in TT on Small Isles a tiger on top of the tree , and Boom i crashed it upsidedown,no sups, i lost it,
I tried again, and i spawned again the tiger in tree, lost it.
I did't have perks, but i was thinking to spawn a monkey,
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Oh, it's not really a cheat, but sort of an exploitation.
My understanding is that if you move your stick in the direction you want your turret to turn and hold it there before you leave the hangar the lag in the game will cause your turret to be turned when your opponent's system updates.
But come on, spawn camping? :cry A cheesy, perk ho move in itself. Try using your noggin and fighting sometime. It's more fun.:aok
BTW, positioning your stick a certain way before you enter the playing field isn't "against the rules" either, so I guess you're even on that one, huh?
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I think HTC changed the time the spawner shows up on the campers FE. Somehow I remember a thread about this.
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Originally posted by ghi
i don't know but, i spawned in TT on Small Isles a tiger on top of the tree , and Boom i crashed it upsidedown,no sups, i lost it,
I tried again, and i spawned again the tiger in tree, lost it.
I did't have perks, but i was thinking to spawn a monkey,
:lol :lol
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Originally posted by kj714
But come on, spawn camping? :cry A cheesy, perk ho move in itself. Try using your noggin and fighting sometime. It's more fun.:aok
BTW, positioning your stick a certain way before you enter the playing field isn't "against the rules" either, so I guess you're even on that one, huh?
Come on, quit attacking the questioner and answer the question. Do you KNOW for a fact about turret reveral, not "I think". And, the second part is, if it is a cheat, would it be tolerated?
As for saying spawn camping as a "cheesy, perk ho move" you're being stupid (not saying you are, just that you're acting that way, possibly on purpose?) trying to redirect the discussion.
I've ask a polite and serious question and what significant response, if anyone can past adolescence to provide one.
If I believed (which I don't, in case you were wondering) that "jiggling the stick" would cause the action I'm talking about I would have no complaint as the stick is a reasonable and necessary accessory of the game, AND, theorectically, I should be able to reproduce the action in that way. Guess what? I can't.
And, by the way, vulching, HO-ing, and spawn camping are reasonable and legitimate actions in the game that we all LOVE to do to the other side, but cry like babies when its done to us. As a whole, I don't particularly like them either, but everyone can do them.
So... let's try and answer this one again.
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Nothing more satisfying than ruining a campers day. If the VH is camped then up a T34, it's tough and the turret traverse is exceptionally quick.
As regards the lag situation, it works for and against the camper and also the victim at varying times.
I'm sure it's all legitimate.
wipass
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When an airplanes spawns on the runway, it staya 'invisible' for a second or two on the other FEs, about the time it takes to get the engine started up. Not sure, but id guess its the same for GVs.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
When an airplanes spawns on the runway, it staya 'invisible' for a second or two on the other FEs, about the time it takes to get the engine started up. Not sure, but id guess its the same for GVs.
Eight seconds Schatzi. Time it takes to spawn, move into gun position, and swivel panzer turret 180 degrees. Maybe a bit shorter in a T-34, but I've seen it done in a Tiger which is way slower than a Panzer. Awful long lag, and if there was a standard lag that long, why doesn't everyone know about it and use it to break a spawn camp consistantly?
Nope, lag does not explain it. Too many other details I can't go into here, along with consistant behaviors by players who do this, half-admitted discussions with them, etc. to get me to believe that the same people who do this time after time are getting the advantage of an 'accidental' lag.
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Originally posted by Sloehand
And, by the way, vulching, HO-ing, and spawn camping are reasonable and legitimate actions in the game that we all LOVE to do to the other side, but cry like babies when its done to us. As a whole, I don't particularly like them either, but everyone can do them.
"That we all LOVE to do". Oh really? Glad you know the minds of everyone so intimately. Must help you a lot when anticipating the enemy's next move.;) Just twisting your melon a bit mate.
If it's only happening at convenient moments and you're suspicious, film it and send it in to HTC. Posting it here will only result in the kind of responses you've been getting.
Nobody's going to be sympathetic to someone who's getting zapped during a skillfree spawn camp session.
Personally, I can't think of anything more boring than sitting in a tank waiting for other tanks to magically appear in front of me so I can press a button with already zeroed in sights and destroy a target with not even a sporting chance that he might actually get to join in a battle with me. That's how I feel about it. Different from the OP, who shouldn't assume everyone likes to waste good fighting time watching a spawn point. Also I don't "cry" if I get killed by someone spawn camping, HOing or vulching. Tarring everyone with the same brush is wrong, old chap.
So, to re-cap. Film it, send it in.
KD
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Originally posted by KD303
...snip...
If it's only happening at convenient moments and you're suspicious, film it and send it in to HTC. Posting it here will only result in the kind of responses you've been getting.
...snip...
So, to re-cap. Film it, send it in.
KD
Absolutely. The person with the most to lose from illegal manipulation is HTC, and he's risking dollars, not little make believe tanks. If you have evidence or concerns, let him know. If someone's manipulating the code, he WILL take care of it.
BTW....
Be veeeewy careful with the "C" word, Sloehand. People have been permabanned for throwing it around loosely -- and rightly so, because their (often baseless) accusations threaten the integrity of the game and poison the BBS atmosphere.
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Between start of flight, and when you first see the person can vary a lot.
And is effected by how many people are online.
Infact to the person spawning he is not even exploiting anything. He is just spawning, jumping to the gun as quick as possible, and then turning toward you.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Between start of flight, and when you first see the person can vary a lot.
And is effected by how many people are online.
Infact to the person spawning he is not even exploiting anything. He is just spawning, jumping to the gun as quick as possible, and then turning toward you.
HiTech
I certainly admit to the possibility of being wrong -- that it CAN sometimes be a cheat -- which is why I was asking the question in the first place. But I am not yet convinced that it doesn't happen. The reason is, there is other information and evidence in my own experience that supports that possibility, even probability that I figured was too confusing to try and impart here, as I simply wanted response to the question I proposed.
However, this additional information includes the absolutely precise occurance of repeated 'lags" (5 or 6 times in a row) during same incident in a matter of 1 minute +/- by the same person, coinciding exactly when he is spawning each time, AND seen by multiple people during said incident, not just myself.
I don't know if it is a 'stick jiggle' delay or a process interruptor program, or whatever, I just do suspect it does occur and is some type of manipulation by the player. I also have no idea if anything can ever be done about it.
And the point of this message was not to report anyone, but to elicit responses (preferable friendly, serious and intellegent) on the topic. I have, and will begin recording continuosly when I am in a panzer to capture these moments in the future. So eventually, I will have evidence that will prove me right or wrong, I hope. Only then would I want to make specific accusations to HiTech, but I do appreciate that they have entered into the dialogue on this subject.
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Originally posted by Sloehand
Come on, quit attacking the questioner and answer the question. Do you KNOW for a fact about turret reveral, not "I think". And, the second part is, if it is a cheat, would it be tolerated?
As for saying spawn camping as a "cheesy, perk ho move" you're being stupid (not saying you are, just that you're acting that way, possibly on purpose?) trying to redirect the discussion.
I've ask a polite and serious question and what significant response, if anyone can past adolescence to provide one.
If I believed (which I don't, in case you were wondering) that "jiggling the stick" would cause the action I'm talking about I would have no complaint as the stick is a reasonable and necessary accessory of the game, AND, theorectically, I should be able to reproduce the action in that way. Guess what? I can't.
And, by the way, vulching, HO-ing, and spawn camping are reasonable and legitimate actions in the game that we all LOVE to do to the other side, but cry like babies when its done to us. As a whole, I don't particularly like them either, but everyone can do them.
So... let's try and answer this one again.
You're a piece of work aren't ya?
I witnessed this myself once and asked the guy how he was doing it. I passed my knowledge I gained on this to you. Also, as referenced above, I seem to remember a thread on it stating the same thing. Do a search.
I don't KNOW because I don't COAD the game. As for being stupid, don't really give a flip about you or the way you choose to play the game, just throwing in my two cents. I realize I'm the only one on this board who does that, so I'm special I guess.
Here's your sign.
:rofl
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I think variable connect is a good feature to help deal with lame spawn campers.
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I have camped spawns (in the past) and have had the other guys I was camping with start shooting and actually kill the spawner before I even saw him.
I have spawned and have had enough time to traverse the gun before the camper could get a shot off ... due to the same reasons ... there is no cheat here ... this has been happening for quite some time.
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Simple if guy camping changes gvs lag time of new gv gives you time to turn gun easy. and turning turret as you click hanger works as well just not when 2 to 4 guys camping. turning gun in time fo 1 camper easy. Simple fact panzer in indestrutable hanger at your vh. just grab t34 turn gun as you spawn bingo his turret game over!
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I've seen what I believe to be similar effects repeatedly over the years. I tend to believe that HT has given the reason that explains almost all instances...quick-turret, invisible tanks at spawn, etc... Combine that with the fact that a really good shot, or a good ambush, can "feel" like an unfair kill...and I think there's a lot more frustration over unfairness than may truly exist. I've been questioned along these lines before, but really only as a result of the other player confusing 'exploitation' with good tactics. (That's not intended as a shot, Sloe, just a point). There are also, admittedly, a few terrain bugs which result in some exploitable scenarios (underground spawn, invisible craters, etc...) that folks will use if they find themselves in that poisition. Who wouldn't?
Hell...I even thought I was seeing lag invisibility once, only to find out that I hadn't switched to ground view (this will nearly guarantee invisible tanks!)
While there may be a player or two who are really guilty of something unfair, I still believe that HT runs a pretty tight ship, and take this stuff seriously. Take those films, and they'll help you out.
Last, a suggestion: Never conduct an "aggressive tactical suppression" (like the self-serving euphemism?) from directly behind, or inside, the indestructible hangar. Too close, visible to anyone in tower, and easily overwhelmed. Set up with some range, good cover and an escape route planned. Good Luck!
I Have Spoken. ;)
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I don't know how they do it, but I wish selectable turret position on spawn was an option.
I love camping, but I think this would give the spawners a fair shot, if you'll pardon the pun.
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Nothing new here. Nothing untoward either. It's just a connect thing as HTC has advised.
Solution is keep firing into hanger... chances are the spawnee will up straight away after your 1st kill. Get the rythum going type thing. Being to close is asking for it to. Set up a little ways back so the spawnee HAS to aim.
As a spawnee you click fly go straight into gun, turn and fire. If you get a kill all well and good but if you don't EXIT to tower pronto. Repeat this over but space out your spawn times. Oh, always use a T34. The turret turns fast and if the spawn camper does get a shot off chances are he'll turret or engine hit you....Exit and repeat.
I have a 2mb cable connection and I think my GV's stay err cloaked about 3 to 4 seconds. I have no idea what would happen if I was on dial up. Longer cloak is my guess.:eek:
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Originally posted by ghi
i don't know but, i spawned in TT on Small Isles a tiger on top of the tree , and Boom i crashed it upsidedown,no sups, i lost it,
I tried again, and i spawned again the tiger in tree, lost it.
I did't have perks, but i was thinking to spawn a monkey,
Next time you flip a tank upside down, point the turret at the ground and fire. It will right your tank back up and you can drive away.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Sloehand
If I believed (which I don't, in case you were wondering) that "jiggling the stick" would cause the action I'm talking about I would have no complaint as the stick is a reasonable and necessary accessory of the game, AND, theorectically, I should be able to reproduce the action in that way. Guess what? I can't.
And, by the way, vulching, HO-ing, and spawn camping are reasonable and legitimate actions in the game that we all LOVE to do to the other side, but cry like babies when its done to us. As a whole, I don't particularly like them either, but everyone can do them.
So... let's try and answer this one again.
My how this highlighted statement rings true. This whole thread is answered in these nine words.
Karaya
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OK, well I guess I got enought responses from people i think should know what's going on. Can't say I'm 100% convinced yet, but it seems most are of the conviction that it is a lag issue more than anything else.
I still have some doubts that it can't be a cheat, at least on occasion, but figure most of the time it must be lag. Only thing is, I've never, ever been able to reproduce the turret reversal on any spawn camper yet. And have tried alot. Go figure.
Thanks for the responses.
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Originally posted by Kurt
Sounds like lag to me.
I bet he was moving his turret long before the game updated you with his position. Don't freak.
Anyhow, why are you spawn camping anyhow? Isn't that 'gamey'?
Yea it happens all the time. Just dont spawn camp him and it wont happen.
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Originally posted by Lazerr
Yeah, same deal with getting shot by an invisable panzer while camping. It all depends on how long it takes for them to appear on your screen. If the lag is bad enough, he could sit there for 5 minutes, drink a beer, and then shoot you just as he appears on your screen. :D
exactly.
but IMO this is one bug. or anomaly that shouldnt be fixed.
In spawn camping as much fun as it can be. the camper really has an unfair advantage.
This lag at least to some extent helps to even the playing feild.
If you really want to nullify this effect then camp farther away from the spawn point instead of right on top of it.
This will make the spawning GV take a longer time to move his turret around, to locate your position and by that time he should be fully visable.
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Originally posted by Sloehand
OK, well I guess I got enought responses from people i think should know what's going on. Can't say I'm 100% convinced yet, but it seems most are of the conviction that it is a lag issue more than anything else.
I still have some doubts that it can't be a cheat, at least on occasion, but figure most of the time it must be lag. Only thing is, I've never, ever been able to reproduce the turret reversal on any spawn camper yet. And have tried alot. Go figure.
Thanks for the responses.
It is a lag issue. I use it myself and I wouldnt know how to cheat even if I wanted to.
Camp farther away from the spawn point and it becomes less of a problem