Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Morpheus on January 21, 2006, 06:40:59 PM
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For every gun on a bomber that can aim in the direction of where your shooting, to converge all at the exact same point, at 600 yards, is rediculous. Gunners where not this good, ever. What we have now is better than the radar guided guns on B52s.
I surely hope this is not what ToD or whatever its called will be like. Something needs to be done. By the time a 109 gets into firing range of a B17 he will be minus both wings and flaming down to earth.
IMO something needs to be done. This is not just a gripe because I die to buff guns. It's also because when I fly them I have no problem shooting nme planes down 1 after the next like fish in a barrel. They are so on par with the unrealistic FM of buffs its not funny. As it is they can drop bombs from any angle at any speed under any situation. Add to that these lazers and they're just a joke.
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yeah, see knite's AAR thread. the finns were in very close formation with ju88's, and it was like flying into a wall of lead. seeing as the buff guns are designed for single players flying single buffs in the late war MA, they need em, but when flying properly, trying to kill them with 303's its bloody impossible. there needs to be a randomiser effecting accuracy at range, less and less accurate the further out you go.
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This is my biggest worry about Combat Tour, Morph. Remember HT's AI F4u? It aimed for your head and didn't miss did it... now imagine a huge set of buffs all turbolasering AI pwn style at your head from 1,000+ yards in your 109. Sharks w/ laser beams on their heads would be jealous.
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On a similar note. About how many hits do you guys hear before wings and such come off?
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would this 600 yard spot where all the bullets converge just happen to be 600 yards off the buffs arse? only time a bomber got a kill on me this tour was when I had already damaged my own plane with killshooter on takeoff, the buff got a ping on me, 2 buff dies, niki hits my tail off, and dies, and the tofu eating, wine cooler swilling fluff drivr got the kill.
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Bombers are to accurate in this game, Come in from the 6 and ur dead, come in at there 9 and heh ur lucky if ur alive, come in at their 12 and maybe. Come in from Below Possible come in from Above at an angle and most possible if in a good plane. Other than that ur Screwed in a 109.
Only good Buff killin 109 is the K4 with its 30mm, Put one of them in the wing root and it has no wing =].
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Morph are you crying?if so that's funny as H**l
Hint:don't try too level 6 kill bombers.
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Yes they are accurate, but Ive fought guys who scream in from above in that bad spot between tail and upper, and back, screwing me up and wasting me without a ping. Then Ive fought guys who one at a time come up on my six and I waste them one after another.
I think its a little of both. Most guys just dont try hard enough most of the time. Yes the guns are strong, but imagine even 1 50 cal shooting a 5 sec burst at something 600 yds away...that isnt evading or weaving at all. Its gonna be mincemeat.
As far as the AI gunners...Id rather see the gunners put out points of fire from each gun..that randomly spourt out fire in the direction of the fighter. More like something the fighter can run thru and be hit occasionally, than be locked on and terminated.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Morph are you crying?if so that's funny as H**l
Hint:don't try too level 6 kill bombers.
who is this newb?
I also said that they are far too accurrate from myself being in the gunners position.
You know where you can put your hint right?
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Ok, let me post somtething. I've had A LOT to drink, but it doesn't stop me fromt posting wisdom.
When attacking a fighter, you trade speed for surprise. You attack from the sun, from the clouds, from below 6'oclock, etc. You set up your path and prepare to get within 400 yards for that convergance sweet spot.
When attacking a bomber, you trade surprise for speed. The problem with bombers is that they are either lining up their shot (taking away the position of gunner) or trying to line on a fighter going at 500mph + (if possible). You can't surprise a bomber, you need to attack it in the spots where it is its weakest. Like: Beam, Flank, 12'o'clock, and straight from above. It is your own dang fault for being shot down by the combined firepower of 3 bombers. Attack from a position where you are vulnerable and you deserve to die. Dead-on six attacks are suicide, remember, the closing rate is the bomer's speed minus your speed, which can result in easy kills for the bomber. Study your target, study its turrets, study its arcs, and attack from positions of superiority. To do so otherwise is the mark of a impatient and amatuer pilot.
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Originally posted by RTSigma
Ok, let me post somtething. I've had A LOT to drink, but it doesn't stop me fromt posting wisdom.
WOOOWOOOOOOOOO right on Sigma! I know it's when I'm at my wisest!!!
BTW, how goes it:)
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He still made sense, needs to drink more.
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lol look at you guys giving internet lessons on how to shoot down bomber.
Thanks but no thanks. And way to stay on topic. I am fully aware of how to and how not to shoot buffs down and do so on a regular basis. Drink less think more.
The topic of this thread was not how to go about shooting one down. It was about their completely unrealistic aiming ability. To have every gun that can point in a given direction from 3 B17's all hitting directly at 600 yards is a joke. Not to mention that they can shoot right through drones and hit what their aiming at on the other side.
No human in the world can aim a 50 caliber mounted on a moving plane no less, the way the bombers in AH can aim. There is no error between the gun position the player is in and the surrounding guns that are being aimed aimed by him. They are all aiming and hitting at the same spot at 600 yards.
This is not a whine. Call it whatever the heck you want to call it. But the simple fact remains, that the guns on the bombers in aces high are as realistic as a bomber in aces high being able to release bombs while inverted.
Maybe some of you like the Nintendo like realism of bombers. Maybe you think that's fun. I think its a joke. And takes alot away from what the game could be. Not to mention what CT is going to be.
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See? I brought this exact thing up on the Wishlist forum not too long ago. It's NOT just me.
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They haven't updated the B17/other B-buffs models yet, have they? (I dunno, buffs are ZZZZZZZ, haven't been in one in years). If not, let's hope they redo them for CT and fix the lazer taggers. I'd rather fight 3 la7's than fly into a gazillion AI-aimed lazer taggers trying to peg me between the eyes.
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Unless its an rare nose to nose merge co alt with buffs, I don't even bother with them.
My P38 is too big a target and soaks up pilot wounds like a sponge.
I'm not sure what HTC could do but approaching a buff from anything behind the 3-9 line is suicide right now
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Originally posted by RTSigma
attack from positions of superiority. To do so otherwise is the mark of a impatient and amatuer pilot.
No, it is the mark if a pilot that wants to furball and some moronic buff dweeb is heading to ruin the fun needs to be downed.
Then again, that is just my opinion.
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What angle are you taking there, Del? If that "buff dweeb" is going for strats/hangars, then he's more or less doing what his plane is intended for (albeit at SIGNIFICANTLY lower alt than the mission calls for) and I don't think there's anything wrong with it (ducks from the hail of stones hurled by the furballers). Or are you talking about guys that intentionally up Buff formations in a furball and bulldoze their way through the center of the fight?
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Just tired of finding a nice fight, only to have high alt buffs pinpoint bomb every FH at a field, with their 'easy mode' bombing model. I find myself stalling out nose high trying to kill the buffs to maintain the fight.
I do have some sympathy, killing the FH,BH, and other stuff at a field is the only way they can affect gameplay. There is simply nothing else worthwhile bombing, even HQ can be repaired easily enough, and a single formation isn't enough to drop HQ.
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Well, it should really be a warning when the furballers start coming in that MAYBE they're preceeding something bigger and that it might be a good idea for a couple guys to grab some alt and range out from the field. Just look how easy it is to drag an entire base's defenses down to the deck to mob just two bandits.
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Dead horse. HiTech explained many times that there is no real issue about buff guns accuracy/convergence/range/lethality and actually it seems he never changed anything about it.
This is a part of AH2 we probably have to learn to deal with. I'm not happy with it, tho. Gaming concession? I dunno, however IMO, the whole buff thing is one of the less realistic ones: diving level bombers, bombing accuracy, bombing run speeds, bat manoeuvers at high alt, gunners lethality ... name it.
P.S.: FWIW, AI gunners in Warbirds had the same, if not worst, unreal lethality/accuracy ...
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Originally posted by wetrat
They haven't updated the B17/other B-buffs models yet, have they? (I dunno, buffs are ZZZZZZZ, haven't been in one in years). If not, let's hope they redo them for CT and fix the lazer taggers. I'd rather fight 3 la7's than fly into a gazillion AI-aimed lazer taggers trying to peg me between the eyes.
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Lets hope they fix them in the Main Arena too ...
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Here's a recent thread about this subject that was posted at the Wishlist forum:
Buff guns (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167897)
For a shorter version of my tests and quick analysis on that thread; simply put, the buff guns are shotguns. Remember HT's classic explanation on how dispersion actually increases the chance to hit. In most cases, the chance to hit itself is meaningless because usually dispersion means that the bullets are ungrouped and random.
However, what happens if you aren't firing just 4~6 50cals like on the fighters, but an awesome barrage of 15~20 50cals firing at once, at enhanced kinetic power due to relative direction of travel (running into the bullet)?
The end result: Our buff are, in effect, firing shotguns with 20 x 50calibre barrels, at a rate of 800 rounds per minute. The buff guns converge at 500 yards, but at 800~1000yards the dispersion pattern from three buffs cover an area that is about 100 yards tall x 500 yards wide.
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Like the old gunnery issues, this is a problem of techincal possibility versus situational probability. Is it possible for all gunners who have angle, on three individual bombers, to fire at a same target at exactly the same time?
Sure it's possible. But I'm not gonna bet any money on that it ever happened in real life. It is highly improbable.
Add in the fact that the buff guns shoot through each other - which negates the fighter tactics of "peeling the onions", hitting the bombers on the outside first. The buffs shoot guns through the drones. You can't approach at an angle where only a few guns are pointed at you at a given time. Just aim it right and all bullets will pass through their own buffs and hit you.
Frankly, it's bullshi*, if you ask me. It's got nothing to do with whether one can kill a buff or not. Morph isn't complaining because he can't shoot a buff down. He's complaining because the way they shoot guns is bullshi*, pure and simple.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Here's a recent thread about this subject that was posted at the Wishlist forum:
Buff guns (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167897)
For a shorter version of my tests and quick analysis on that thread; simply put, the buff guns are shotguns. Remember HT's classic explanation on how dispersion actually increases the chance to hit. In most cases, the chance to hit itself is meaningless because usually dispersion means that the bullets are ungrouped and random.
However, what happens if you aren't firing just 4~6 50cals like on the fighters, but an awesome barrage of 15~20 50cals firing at once, at enhanced kinetic power due to relative direction of travel (running into the bullet)?
The end result: Our buff are, in effect, firing shotguns with 20 x 50calibre barrels, at a rate of 800 rounds per minute. The buff guns converge at 500 yards, but at 800~1000yards the dispersion pattern from three buffs cover an area that is about 100 yards tall x 500 yards wide.
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Like the old gunnery issues, this is a problem of techincal possibility versus situational probability. Is it possible for all gunners who have angle, on three individual bombers, to fire at a same target at exactly the same time?
Sure it's possible. But I'm not gonna bet any money on that it ever happened in real life. It is highly improbable.
Add in the fact that the buff guns shoot through each other - which negates the fighter tactics of "peeling the onions", hitting the bombers on the outside first. The buffs shoot guns through the drones. You can't approach at an angle where only a few guns are pointed at you at a given time. Just aim it right and all bullets will pass through their own buffs and hit you.
Frankly, it's bullshi*, if you ask me. It's got nothing to do with whether one can kill a buff or not. Morph isn't complaining because he can't shoot a buff down. He's complaining because the way they shoot guns is bullshi*, pure and simple.
YEP, Exactley.....it's BS.., But I gota wonder if it can be coded to
to correct the guns so they will not fire thru or so that they shut down when aimed at the droans in the bommer formation ? ........ I do not know squat about code or the magic that the HTC crew works with .... But I can speculate that it could be a far bigger POS to fix.....? with far more problems than it seems ?.
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I've complained about this exact thing too. OTOH in MA it's bearable.. in TOD unthinkable.
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Originally posted by CHECKERS
YEP, Exactley.....it's BS.., But I gota wonder if it can be coded to
to correct the guns so they will not fire thru or so that they shut down when aimed at the droans in the bommer formation ? ........ I do not know squat about code or the magic that the HTC crew works with .... But I can speculate that it could be a far bigger POS to fix.....? with far more problems than it seems ?.
Simple, allow firing only from the manned gun. Or allow more than 2 crew per buff.
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Originally posted by outbreak
Bombers are to accurate in this game, Come in from the 6 and ur dead, come in at there 9 and heh ur lucky if ur alive, come in at their 12 and maybe. Come in from Below Possible come in from Above at an angle and most possible if in a good plane. Other than that ur Screwed in a 109.
Only good Buff killin 109 is the K4 with its 30mm, Put one of them in the wing root and it has no wing =].
If you die coming in from the 3 O' or 9 O' it's the Indian not the arrow. The EASIEST method I have found, is to do what the Abbeville Kids did in WWII: HO them. After the said HO pass, I climb, dive, and came up from underneath. Front and belly are the weak points of a buff, regardless of the ball turret. Sides are the next weakest. Coming in from near vertical dive on top makes it tough for the Buff gunner to aim. IE, when you come in from a shalow angle, you are an easier target. Hence, the STEEPER the angle, the harder it is to get kilt.
Now, as for Morpheus's CONCERN (not a whine by ANY stretch of the word), I totally agree with this. I don't understand why lethality can be dialed down a notch. I agree with Kwe that the guns act like Shotguns.
Karaya
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Originally posted by wetrat
They haven't updated the B17/other B-buffs models yet, have they? (I dunno, buffs are ZZZZZZZ, haven't been in one in years). If not, let's hope they redo them for CT and fix the lazer taggers. I'd rather fight 3 la7's than fly into a gazillion AI-aimed lazer taggers trying to peg me between the eyes.
DITTO !
I gave up defending against Buff attacks because of the ridicules accuracy and lethality.
One of the reasons why I'm not looking forward to TOD is the vision of having to fly my K4 or A8 into a wall of AI laser guided .50's.
You have a higher survivability chance flying ur plane through a cloud of slugs from a close in weapon system like Phalanx or Goalkeeper then a 3 formations B17 or B24.
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When a lone fighter has a higher chance of survival against an enemy fighter compared to a single enemy bomber, something is wrong.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
WOOOWOOOOOOOOO right on Sigma! I know it's when I'm at my wisest!!!
BTW, how goes it:)
Heeeeeeeeeeey Dud, guess whos coming back to the skies?
On the topic though, maybe the guns are a little laser-trained, but theres just one guy controlling them. Teaming up with a pal or another can warrant equal amount of kills or an extra one.
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Most of us have seen the changes in AH to make the game more enjoyable, the people within AH along with input from the conferences and the people of the flying community have made request for changes and improvements.
The advent of the formations was to allow a single player to feel more of the power of a group working together in WWII. At the time it was a bonus to the game and so many people enjoyed the change (something new).
Now just like the test says “12345678900987654321 it is time for all good men to come to the aid of their country”.
A single bomber it must be changed to, then pilots must come together to build a formation.
Thus it will solve so many of the forgotten disadvantages and misuse of the bomber formations like dive bombing.
I have enjoyed the use of the formations in the old IronHead squadron where you would see 50 bombers in the air, let’s do this again but with a combined effort of pilots.
Good Huntin
Spiker
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who is this newb?
I been playin this flight sim just as long as you,if not longer.
You know where you can put your hint right?
Seems as though i struck a nerve........
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Rather than offering something informative and helpful to this thread you offer up your low IQ and anything that comes to mind first.
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I say allow all buff drivers to hightlight morph as their wingman these whine threads from the BVSS are comedy gold. keep up the good work buffs.
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This is something I would expect you to say storch. Its also something I would expect a 10 year old to say. One in the same.
Rather than fixing something that needs fixing keep it the way it is so it bothers me? Where do you get your logic?
Btw, its pretty sad that just because someone shoots you down in the CT you can't get along with them. Time to grow up storch.
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Originally posted by storch
I say allow all buff drivers to hightlight morph as their wingman these whine threads from the BVSS are comedy gold. keep up the good work buffs.
Thought you were spanked for comments like this already? Time for more? :lol
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Morpheus, I agree with you that bombers gunnery has unreal accuracy, and bombers have clear advantage when deal with one fighter. But two attacking fighters turn the table, and this advantage becomes disadvantage. Highly unrealistic that all gunners in fomation would shoot in one attacker only.
So, I see the unrealistic accuracy of bombers gunnery as some way to compensate impossibility to withstand against 2+ attackers. Your idea to decrease or randomize gunnery will make literally impossible for bombers to survive multi-fighters attack.
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Any decent shot in a buff formation can shoot down 5 or more enemy before he himself gets shot down. Show me a fighter that can do that, lol.
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Originally posted by Vad
So, I see the unrealistic accuracy of bombers gunnery as some way to compensate impossibility to withstand against 2+ attackers. Your idea to decrease or randomize gunnery will make literally impossible for bombers to survive multi-fighters attack.
What's wrong with that? Make them work for it. Make them fly together or get fighter help. If your avg. lone fighter goes into a 4vs1, he's dead and he's lucky if he gets one. Take the lone buff formation(still just one player), he easily stands a chance of getting most of them, if not all of them. Bombers have so much power to affect this game. Just one formation of B24s or lanc can take down a small feild. They should have to earn that ability by making it harder for them to do so.
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When is enough, enough?
We already have a bomb sight that rivals that of the F117s of today. The guns on them also rival the B52's radar guided deffencive guns. While the fighters of the game have had hit bubbles reduced and FM's changed to make gunnery and FM's more realistic, bombers reamain on an upward swing towards Nintendo like realism.
Again, some may be happy with this trend. Heck, HT may even gain more customers this way. I dont know... I do know though, that a bomber never had the ability to drop bombs while inverted. Or enter a 450mph dive and release a full salvo of bombs and pull out of that dive with ease. Or have all guns from all gunner positions converge on a single target 600 yards out with god like accurracy.
With a bomber at 25k, where ballistics of a bullet change dramaticly, and trajectory flattens out enormously, a fighter is dead meat in this game. Ballistics change for the better for both a bombers and fighters guns. But the fighter is the one that must work up to and get over a bomber. To make one pass and while on is way through be ripped to shreds. While the buffs have a rock solid gun platform in which to fire their lazers from.
When I take up a bomber, and climb to 25k+ I fly with near impunity from all fighters.I am not even someone I woudl consider to be a good gunner, and I have absolutely no problem killing one fighter after the next in a bomber. Again, I'm not complaining because I can't shoot down bombers and get killed in the process. I am making a point, that their just too accurrate, with all of them shooting at and hitting in the same place at 600 yards, its just not right...
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who did you spank dipstick? here's what I read morph.wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aa make the bad buffs stop mommy make them stop wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaa it's hilarious please continue.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
What's wrong with that? Make them work for it. Make them fly together or get fighter help. If your avg. lone fighter goes into a 4vs1, he's dead and he's lucky if he gets one. Take the lone buff formation(still just one player), he easily stands a chance of getting most of them, if not all of them. Bombers have so much power to affect this game. Just one formation of B24s or lanc can take down a small feild. They should have to earn that ability by making it harder for them to do so.
I just want to say that advantage in one area is compensated by disadvantage in another. Yes, bomber formation is just one player but it is 3 bombers, and you should respect them as 3 bombers. 2 fighters easily shoot down all of them attacking from different angles, which is not very accurate and realistic.
During 2 years of playing AH I flew just few sorties in bombers, so as a mostly fighter I would like to decrease bomber gunnery. But bomber guys are paying their 15 bucks, and game should be honest for them too.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
For every gun on a bomber that can aim in the direction of where your shooting, to converge all at the exact same point, at 600 yards, is rediculous. Gunners where not this good, ever. What we have now is better than the radar guided guns on B52s.
I surely hope this is not what ToD or whatever its called will be like. Something needs to be done. By the time a 109 gets into firing range of a B17 he will be minus both wings and flaming down to earth.
IMO something needs to be done. This is not just a gripe because I die to buff guns. It's also because when I fly them I have no problem shooting nme planes down 1 after the next like fish in a barrel. They are so on par with the unrealistic FM of buffs its not funny. As it is they can drop bombs from any angle at any speed under any situation. Add to that these lazers and they're just a joke.
Agreed.
I use the B26s for base defence on CAPed bases, if i make it up,25% fuel drop eggs b4 take off, those 3 bombers are more eficient than 5-10 x M16s sitting ducks on the base.
yep, is BS not realistic, but works, cuz alied air farce was modeled first, and LW after from leftovers,
imop the LW is porked. The FW190-sturmbock, was heavy armored, they parked it behind the bombers kill the tail guner and blast it with heavy guns. But if you get a Fw190A8,in AH with heavy guns, just lose the poor performance has left, nothing improves in damage model.
Try to catch a loaded formation of Lancs in FW190A8 over 20K .
The bombers are running at full power for hours without burning rings and engines, What was the speed of bombers in boxformations?!! all the books i read was under 200mph, 180mph,
Why the MK103, or BK5 was not modeled to hit the buffs from 1 k?!
As you say the guns are a "joke", not only the guns,but all ToD, if they don't bring it close to reality
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Originally posted by storch
who did you spank dipstick? here's what I read morph.wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aa make the bad buffs stop mommy make them stop wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaa it's hilarious please continue.
Good points, storch. Thanks for your input.
Morph
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First of all its a bad idea to attack bombers from the dead 6 position.
always attack from off angles or better yet from the high front 10,11,1 and 2:00 positions
If you do it right you can make a pass from alt, pass on them high to low then extend and climb out in front of them and do it all over again
That being said. Yes Bomber gunnners are probably a bit too accurate.
A large part of this problem is because the gun recoil is not accurately modeled in bombers enabling you to fire from a nice stable platform thus making them laserlike as opposed to all the bouncing shaking and vibrating they should be doing.
Another part of this is the lack of turbulance in the game again enabling the guns to be fired from a nice,stable platform all the time
not to mention that the individual skill and panic level of each gunner doesnt come into effect.
Im sure some gunners were better then others. Some were more prone to panicing while others had nerves fo steel. as well as everything inbetween
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The problem is with automatically firing of all positions with a clear line of sight when you are gunner. This should never happen. I think you should only fire your gun and have some sort of AI for the rest of them. This kind of precise converging fire in one place is way off for WW2.
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Morpheus nice try sir ... we all know the Bk motto from there own home page is "we don't fly bombers" ..so now you play the wolf in sheep clothes complaining about buffs being too easy when you fly them.........Ok people do your own home work and check Morpheus bombers scores...really.......Current tour 47 sorties .....5 kills...last month 115 sorties 29 kills........nice try Morpheus.
Can't wait to see what the Bk's try next!
999000
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
First of all its a bad idea to attack bombers from the dead 6 position.
always attack from off angles or better yet from the high front 10,11,1 and 2:00 positions
If you do it right you can make a pass from alt, pass on them high to low then extend and climb out in front of them and do it all over again
That being said. Yes Bomber gunnners are probably a bit too accurate.
A large part of this problem is because the gun recoil is not accurately modeled in bombers enabling you to fire from a nice stable platform thus making them laserlike as opposed to all the bouncing shaking and vibrating they should be doing.
Another part of this is the lack of turbulance in the game again enabling the guns to be fired from a nice,stable platform all the time
not to mention that the individual skill and panic level of each gunner doesnt come into effect.
Im sure some gunners were better then others. Some were more prone to panicing while others had nerves fo steel. as well as everything inbetween
Or just ignore what I typed, and basically repeat.
Karaya
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Originally posted by 999000
Morpheus nice try sir ... we all know the Bk motto from there own home page is "we don't fly bombers" ..so now you play the wolf in sheep clothes complaining about buffs being too easy when you fly them.........Ok people do your own home work and check Morpheus bombers scores...really.......Current tour 47 sorties .....5 kills...last month 115 sorties 29 kills........nice try Morpheus.
Can't wait to see what the Bk's try next!
999000
:noid
Sheesh, lay off the pipe 999. Why is it always some BK conspiracy? He's saying exactly what he thinks, and what he thinks happens to be correct.
Take yourself for example... you regularly mow down multiple enemy fighters in your buffs, and it's not uncommon for you to land 7 or more kills in a run. Do you think a formation of three bombers in WWII ever could equal such a feat? I think not. Bombers flown by good shots in AH are roving deathstars that fighters walk up to for certain death. Lets face it, if bombers are going to be as-modeled in Combat Tour, they won't even need a fighter escort. I understand why HT has modeled them as such, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
Oh and btw read his post again. It wasn't some "I can't shoot down buffs so wahhhh" rant, it was more from the end of HIS experience FLYING bombers and how frankly easy it is to blast anything you want out of the sky.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Or just ignore what I typed, and basically repeat.
Karaya
Probably because I wrote what I wrote. before I read what you wrote.
Happens that way sometimes ;)
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Originally posted by Stang
:noid
Do you think a formation of three bombers in WWII ever could equal such a feat? I think not. Bombers flown by good shots in AH are roving deathstars that fighters walk up to for certain death. Lets face it, if bombers are going to be as-modeled in Combat Tour, they won't even need a fighter escort. I understand why HT has modeled them as such, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
The problem is that back then, if you were shot down, you were dead, or captured, or hurt. Here in AH2, you get experience even after you die. The more you kill someone, the more they learn.
People are going to want bombers because A.) They like the challenge and/or B.) They are horrible at piloting fighters. With the convergence, it gives them the chance to possibly make it to target and perform their run. If HTC made the bomber's guns any less effective, then what are they going to do? No one wants to up in a bomber, spend 20mins heading to target and get bounced by a fighter than can down ALL THREE of the bombers while the player has to hope to shoot down the pesky guy with ineffective guns.
Its a game. HTC wants people to have fun. With the convergence people can have fun and pilot bombers.
Just realize this, you don't HAVE TO engage a bomber. You can leave it alone ya know.
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Yeah but then they destroy the hangers Sigma. Like I said earlier, no one area(fighters, gvs) have the ability for 1 player to affect so many people. For them to have so much power they should have a rougher time deploying it. Instead they get 3 "lifes" to get there, 30+ machine guns all aimed at the same spot and a lazer accurate bombsite.
I don't think you'd be saying what you say 999 if you saw guys like morph and hub actually trying. Most of the time we up bombers from capped feilds when the toolshed heros knock down the FHs(as always). But when they get the itch to do a honest buff run they rival any of the bomber guys in the game.
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when the toolshed heros knock down the FHs(as always).
No fighter hangers means less fighters too kill the goon.
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ghi has a good point..if i get a formation up on a capped field 2 or 3 enemy ftrs are going down quickly...i have a blast in buffs but i must admit i rarely bomb anything lol..i just like the deathstar aspect..and switching b26 to ftr mode and looping spitfires..etc etc bs but fun
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
No fighter hangers means less fighters too kill the goon.
I dare to guess that only 50-70% of the time are FHs taking down for a legit base capture. In those cases I have absolutely no problem with it. Countless times however you have low furballs right in between 2 enemy bases and some guy whether intentionally or out of ignorance come plowing through leveling the fighter hangers with no other purpose than to stop the fight.
This is getting off topic though and I would like for it to stay on topic. So that's all I'm going to say in the "Furballers vs toolshedders" debate. Feel free to have the last word b/c I'm done with that aspect of it.
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Stang, Morpheus states "its like shooting ducks in a barrel" its so ridiculously easy......." My statement is simply ..show me the impression of what your stating to valididate it as a fact........I simply am demonstrating my truth though FACT that he has some 47 sorties in bombers and 5 kills so far in the current tour. .......is this shooting ducks in a barrel?
BTW I don't find many bomber pilots landing 5 plus kills on a run........I do see frequently fighter pilots landing 5 plus kills....I assume they dang good...I don't asume their is something wrong with the game.
999000
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If a field is capped, and ord is still up, 3-4 of us rolling from a field will break your cap. We did it the other night. I got a few of us rolling bombers from a field dropping eggs to lighten up and get off the runway and before 2-3 minutes was up there wasnt an nme fighter in sight.
Morpheus nice try sir ... we all know the Bk motto from there own home page is "we don't fly bombers" ..so now you play the wolf in sheep clothes complaining about buffs being too easy when you fly them.........Ok people do your own home work and check Morpheus bombers scores...really.......Current tour 47 sorties .....5 kills...last month 115 sorties 29 kills........nice try Morpheus.
I wonder when you'll graduate english class.
Mind you most of those sorties in bombers were rolling from a fully vulched base to "absorb" enemy fire and help kill a cap. When I did finnaly get up to be able to fire my guns, 2-3 fighters went down with ease each time. I've done this for 4 some odd years now; when a field gets too vulched for a fighter to up, i start rolling bombers. I dont give a 2 chits about score, and I love to smoke a vulcher in the face with a set of B17s so he wont be able to go home to land. I wonder when the Nintendo like gamey bombers will be changed.
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Originally posted by 999000
Stang, Morpheus states "its like shooting ducks in a barrel" its so ridiculously easy......." My statement is simply ..show me the impression of what your stating to valididate it as a fact........I simply am demonstrating my truth though FACT that he has some 47 sorties in bombers and 5 kills so far in the current tour. .......is this shooting ducks in a barrel?
BTW I don't find many bomber pilots landing 5 plus kills on a run........I do see frequently fighter pilots landing 5 plus kills....I assume they dang good...I don't asume their is something wrong with the game.
999000
Have you looked in past tours Brainiac?
I haven't been playing even half as much this tour as I have in past tours.
Bombers are wrong son.. And not just how their gunners fire. Everything about them reaks of arcadish sludge. They are made easy for newbs to fly. Its gotten to a point now where they are just a joke. And being that CT is going to be using bombers in full swing, I am afraid to see what a joke that is going to be like. I sure as hell do not want to see a formation of 100-250 bombers with fifteen times that amount in lazers shooting at me.
I fought HT's AI fighter. When that thing got guns on you it aimed at your head. That was it, you were dead. I cant imagine what AI bomber gunners are going to be like with a stable and steady gun platform in which to shoot from.
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I wonder when the Nintendo like gamey bombers will be changed.
make sure you log that with Night time and fuel porking.
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I am all for fuel porking. If HT were to go back to the old fuel burn that is...
Night time is ok for upcoming CT. It has no place in the MA.
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Morpheus..you state like a gentlemen "have you looked at past tours Brainiac?"...ok I did now ...
Tour 68 you upped bombers a whole 11 times shot down O.....
Tour 67 you upped 176 bombers shot down 5.....
Tour 70 you upped bombers 166 and shot down 36........
so lets see you upped bombers 353 times and shot down 41 enemy........yep fish in a barrel as you say...but it seems you the fish!...the hole gets deeper!
999000
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lol the hole gets deaper? How? It seems most everyone here is in complete agreement with me. That is all but the guys who live in bombers because the can't fly anything else. So sad for you... If something was a challenge for you.
Edit: Btw, why do you take whatever I say and turn it into a BK thing? To be honest with you, I think you act like a little 10 year old... Who when someone says something about one of your whittle bombers you start throwing out the most idiotic "insults" blahblah BK this BK that.... you can think of. For someone who claims to be such an "ace" in bombers you sure suck at flying them the way they were designed to be flown almost 70 years ago. Grow up will ya? Seriously, if you cant' add something productive to your "argument", which is never, then just stick it you know where and walk away. You really think what you're saying means anything to anyone here anyways?
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I love this thread :rofl
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Originally posted by storch
I love to stalk morph :)
Tru
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Tru, I like to take it in the brokeback along with my other blue frilly friends
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lol brokeback-blue frilly friends. Now that was a good one. Well planned, well executed as always. From you, I expect nothing less. They teach you that kinda stuff after you get off the raft? Or in transit?
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Originally posted by Morpheus
lol I love my brokeback-blue frilly friends. Now they was a good though they have little ones. everything waswell planned and polished, well executed as always I expect nothing less. They teach me that kinda stuff after we all get off on the raft we love romantic cruises
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LOL you make me glad to be me.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
LOL you make me glad to do me but I can't reach
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Very sad individual you are. A grown man, stalking internet figures. LOL
I can't beleive that shooting you down makes you such an angry person.
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speaking of which I haven't seen you back since I owned you last. now please continue with the subject at hand, no not that one the buff thing, it was hilarious, please stop hijacking your own thread.
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I got the point across, how many "I agrees" need to be said?
I have been in the game plenty. Owned me? Should I dig that film up? I wouldnt call your gang bang owning me at all. But maybe I wasn't seeing things right in the film. :confused:
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Originally posted by Morpheus
I fought HT's AI fighter. When that thing got guns on you it aimed at your head. That was it, you were dead. I cant imagine what AI bomber gunners are going to be like with a stable and steady gun platform in which to shoot from. [/B]
It can be done. It don't have to be like HT's AI fighter. Look at Forgotten battles. They had some problems with it but now is great. You only shoot your position, the rest of the guns are AI. There are AI "Skill Levels".
At noob Ai gunner you can almost park the fighter behind him. On Veteran and Ace It can shoot you in a high speed deflection. But set on Average is just great. Not to deadly but you can't full around it too much.
Let's not forget the buff's best defense was the box formation. Once a bomber slipped out of the box it was dead meat.
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BTW. I find it funny that you can fly over a field (with all the 20mms, 37mm's and 88's shooting at you) all day, but when you get anywhere near a good shot in a bomber you'll miss parts when you come out the other way.
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LMAO Storch, thats good stuff!
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Don't ***** Morph, it could be worse.
I remember when you could adust the convergence on the buffs.. it was much worse(or better depending on which end your looking from) then.
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yup, back then it was worse. I remember that as well. IMO though when HT moved the convergence into 600 and locked it, he should opened up the hit pattern. For them all to hit at the exact same spot at 600yrds... It's just not even close to being historically accurrate. While we retain historical accruacy for fighters, we toss it out the window with bombers...
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I'd have to disagree about the field ack, there. Many's the time I've been screaming across a field at 400+ mph (at a good 1000-2000ft altitude at that!) and all the sudden *ping!* *boom!* and I find it was the ack what got me.
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It would be enough probably to stop buffs from shooting through the fuselage and limit fire to the positions which had any chance of seeing you in real life.
That way one could attack a buff formation hiding behind the fuselage of the furthest plane and receive only one set of guns. Anyway if we would man all the buff guns as was the situation in real life, there'd be many many passes where half of the gunners would not see the attacker before it was too late. Now if one position can lock to the enemy, they all lock on it.
Also shooting down your own drones by accident should be enabled and modeled.
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A lot of stuff posted in this thread is incorrect. First, I will say bomber guns and bomb aiming in AH is stupid, but that's a game play decision that they made at HTC.
Anyway, bomber guns don't 'converge' to a single aim point. You can test this off line by flying level, heading due south and using the .target 600 command. First do a single bomber and will see a large cone of fire coming from only those gun that have a line at the aim point (no gun will fire through the fuselage; when you see this in game this is an FE / lag issue). Move the turret around and you will see some guns stop firing when they have no line on the aim point. Then try it in formation. Just fire the tail gun from the center bomber and will see the impact on the target of all three bombers, they don't 'converge' to single aim point.
Here's an image I just did:
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/B-17.jpg)
The inner most ring on the target is 20 ft each following ring is spaced at 10 feet. Each gun position on the AH B-17 has a dispersion of about 20 ft. As you can see in the image there's a 20-25 ft space between the impact points.
Taken from this book:
Gunner:- An Illustrated History of World War II Aircraft Turrets and Gun Positions
ISBN 1 84037 304 0
By Donald Nijboer
are the results of bomber guns tested on the ground (bomber parked on the ground engines off):
Testing done by the USAAF found that the bullet pattern from a B-17 during ground testing had the following results for 12 rounds to 600yds:
ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 21' - 11.7mils
chin turret > dia. 23' - 12.6 mils
waist(closed) dia. 26' - 14.3mils
side nose > dia. 34' - 18.7mils
tail turret > dia 45' - 25mils (yup that is right 45 FEET)
For the B-24 it was:
ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 20' - 11.2mils
nose turret > dia. 23' - 12.9mils (Emerson)
nose turret > dia. 35' - 19.3mils (Motor Prod.)
waist(closed) dia. 23' - 12.9mils
waist(open) dia. 63' - 35.6mils
tail turret > dia 35' - 19.3mils
As you can see, with the exception of the ball turret on the B-17 most of the bomber guns in AH have a tighter dispersion pattern which means they can get many more rounds on target (as long as they aim reasonably well) then in real life. For example the 190 has a wingspan of about 35ft.
Now add to the fact that the bombers are the most stable gun platform in the game (no vibration or gun shake) and it's easy to keep the attacker sited in. It's impossible to get in a blind spot or attack unseen (external view and icons) unless the pilot is asleep or AFK. Also, the bullets aren't affected by the slip stream (they neither rise nor fall etc...). It also appears that AHs damage values are dependent upon impact velocity (when closing on a bomber from the rear you fly into his rounds and thus they 'hit harder') and these are the reason for the 'lethality' of the AH bomber gunners.
It has little to do with dispersion, guns firing through the fuselage etc...
A long while back Urchin spent several days in the DA with friends testing this stuff. If any of you care you might search for his old posts.
But make no mistake about it, bombers in AH have always been dweeb magnets. Bomber gunners have always been lethal yet when you see a bomber in the main you see 10 guys rushing after it. For me I usually ignore them, then are no fun and boring. I asked a long time ago, 'what is the point in having bombers if the only way folks will fly them is if have to dumb them down to ridiculous levels'?
But some people base their whole subscription on playing ack star...
YMMV
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One note on that image I posted. That was taken while in flight. What this mean is the target is being 'dragged' behind the bombers to maintain 600 yards, as such the rounds coming from the tail gun aren't 'traveling' a full 600 yards. This may skew the dispersion of the individual gun some what. They would be slightly wider if I did the test on the ground while stationary. This would also mean that the hit points on the 3 bomners would be closer but it shouldn't be more then a few feet.
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I was incorrect in saying that 'bomber guns don't converge to a single aim point'.
Convergence for the tail guns on the 3 Bomber formations is about 500 yards (=/- 20 yards). At this point the cone fire from the tail guns is about 10 ft or so from the 3 bomber formation.
at 400 the gap is wide, about 25 ft between the 3.
at 600 the bullet streams cross and the gap is about 25ft as well.
Thanks to an ex-squaddie for the pm letting me know...
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Originally posted by Morpheus
While we retain historical accruacy for fighters, we toss it out the window with bombers...
Fighter guns accuracy is not even close to historical. Typical hit percent was ~1-2, typical range ~100-200m. In AH we can shot down enemy from 600m and have ~10% hit rate.
Leave buffs alone, they are easy meat.
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Originally posted by Bruno
(snip) ... bombers in AH have always been dweeb magnets. Bomber gunners have always been lethal yet when you see a bomber in the main you see 10 guys rushing after it. For me I usually ignore them, then are no fun and boring. I asked a long time ago, 'what is the point in having bombers if the only way folks will fly them is if have to dumb them down to ridiculous levels'? But some people base their whole subscription on playing ack star...
Only low flying bombers (i.e.: pork the fields, frag the rwys and die) and low ack-stars are actually bullet/dweeb magnets. This is connected to the low level furball attitude present in the Main. Seldom I see fighters climbing, positioning and attacking medium-high alt buffs: it requires patience and skills. Moreover, gunners lethality and buff FM make it even harder.
Many times I see buff formations flying just 5-10K above furballing enemy fighters and no one taking a look at them ... no, wait, fighter pilots then complain about the destruction of their fighter hangars or ammo/fuel depots! Being a fighter pilot should mean sweeping, capping fields and HQs against buffs as well. Check the stats of many AH stars and vocal players and you'll find that only 5% of their kills are buffs, and much less are tough buffs like B-24s and B-17s.
However, there are not only low level ack-stars. Due to the laser gunnery and UFO FM at high altitude, some pilots play high alt (unloaded) ackstars just to attract enemy fighters and then kill them more easily. Leave heavies as they are now and the TOD and even mid-late war AvA arenas will be a huge disappointment for many players.
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Hey bruno, what else other than the convergence being 500 and not 600 was wrong big guy? :aok
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Now add to the fact that the bombers are the most stable gun platform in the game (no vibration or gun shake) and it's easy to keep the attacker sited in. It's impossible to get in a blind spot or attack unseen (external view and icons) unless the pilot is asleep or AFK. Also, the bullets aren't affected by the slip stream (they neither rise nor fall etc...). It also appears that AHs damage values are dependent upon impact velocity (when closing on a bomber from the rear you fly into his rounds and thus they 'hit harder') and these are the reason for the 'lethality' of the AH bomber gunners.
Am I missing something? Didn't I say this 2 to 3 times already?
(no gun will fire through the fuselage; when you see this in game this is an FE / lag issue).
Again, you are misunderstanding me. Shoot from your number 1 plane at your number 2 or 3 plane. The bullets from your number 1 plane go right through. Notice I said drones when I made mention of the bullets going through the bombers.
But some people base their whole subscription on playing ack star...
Which is why 99999999,0002 is raising holly hell.
Again, like I said. Bombers are a joke. CT being based around bombers for a large part... Should be interesting. :aok
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Originally posted by gatt
Many times I see buff formations flying just 5-10K above furballing enemy fighters and no one taking a look at them ... no, wait, fighter pilots then complain about the destruction of their fighter hangars or ammo/fuel depots! Being a fighter pilot should mean sweeping, capping fields and HQs against buffs as well. Check the stats of many AH stars and vocal players and you'll find that only 5% of their kills are buffs, and much less are tough buffs like B-24s and B-17s.
Exactly gatt
Weird indeed. I am prolly the worst of the bunch replying to this thread as far as being a fighter pilot is concerned.
I have no trouble staying out of buffs guns while commencing to destroy all 3 of them. Its a matter of patience really, but if we talking about trying to kill the bombers after they are within 5 miles of our Airbase or target?
That’s a horse of a different color indeed. If so then this is would just poor base defense, common but poor. If we were as eager to do longer ranging sweeps for bombers as we are to wait hovering over our own bases for those heavy laden JOBO's for the easy kill, the bomber problems would be solved. With the current Buff setup, i think HT has found the best possible happy medium to keep the bombers out of the hanger and in our gun sights. (remembers when the fully calibration sight was introduced and the bomber flights diminished to all time lows.) It was sad not to see bombers in the AH skies kind weird not to see bombers in a WWII setting.
However, if we were to have fully manable gun positions in our bombers, I think the situation would change dramatically. First the defense of the bomber or bomber formation would be fully dependant on the ability of each and every gunner/player onboard. Secondly I think the enjoyment of the interactivity of the players onboard the ship would make up for the now less accurate gunnery that would result from making AI now HI.
I believe this would be a change for the better.
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Originally posted by RTSigma
The problem is that back then, if you were shot down, you were dead, or captured, or hurt. Here in AH2, you get experience even after you die. The more you kill someone, the more they learn.
I've seen this line of reasoning used alot here And to a certain extent its a valid point.
But IRL they had two things we dont have here.
Professional training
The added incentive that is gained by knowing if you miss, you may die
A threat to ones life IRL is an amazing motivator.
That being said. the gunnery is probably too easy.
As I know it is with the AA guns on the ships.
Not to get too far off topic but it is relevant as to the ease of gunnery here and is one interesting story
My father in law who was a gunner on a cruiser in WWII almost laughed when he saw the ships gunnery here. His exact words were and I quote.
"Jeeessus Chrisst, If the )@*)@ g= AA guns were that _@*)$@ easy back then not a single M)($)%^*#!@ Jap plane would have gotten through and Mac would still be alive."
"Mac" From what I've been able to peice together from the bits and chunks of stories he's told me was a buddy of his with whom for whatever reason he switched places with during a Jap attack in 44.
I say "from the bits and peices" because he has never been able to tell the complete story to me all at once and be able to finish it.
During the most complete version he manages to get out he completely zoned out for about 10 minutes.
Abriviated it goes something like this
"This one day Mac and I decided we were gonna change places when the call came out that there were jap planes comming so we ran to our guns see, and we could see em comming in and this one )(#&*$# Jap was comming right at us like this (holding his hand at about a 15 degree angle) and we're trying to blast the hell out of his but this )()(#(*$# just keeps coming like this and...and...and.."
At this point this tough as nails crusty old man completely zones out. and I mean COMPLETELY zones out and he just keeps saying "and..and" while loooking out into the distance and tears rolling down his face.
I was dumbfounded for a moment. Then I realised he was reliving the entire experiance over again.
So Im like "poppop its ok, you can talk about it another time" but he just keeps looking into the distance and saying "and...and" the whole time. And I keep saying "Poppop while gently shaking him but nothing doing, he's completely locked in another place and time.
Like I said. this went on for like 10 minutes before finally he lowered his hands looked at me wiping the tears from his eyes and said "and the next day we (raising both hands in the air) "Whoosh, dumped em overboard and buried him at sea"
"Damn nice guy too. Just found out he had a kid two days before. And if we hadnt changed places that one day. they would have buried me instead of him"
Its ok popop
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1st, let me start off by saying i havent read all of this thread nor do i care to
2nd)and this is to you Morph,im going to take a different appraoch to this away from my counter part 999000
and im sorry if im repeating anything (see above)
Morph i agree with all guns pointing in the same direction it is easy to land 5 or more kills buffs do have that advantage in the ma,but in tod im sure ht will fix this issue(and i havnt read anything about tod just what i have heard)this has been a issue to many for years am i right???if tod is a setup were after certian critiria you get rank they have to either make buff guns harder to man ,less deadly or a various of other ideas or they will not work with tod noone will attack them i wouldnt!!!you know as well as i do this is a thorn to everyone ijn the ma.
as far as fish in a barrell i cant agree maybe bobing for apples but i personaly cant pick 5to7 off bomb and land never could 9 can and i think he ch@@ts anyway :p
upping from a capped base yes this is easy enough kis up fast enough now heres a question i have does dropping your eggs actualy help????
anyway just my 2 cents not worth a plug nickle i know but htc wont let this effect tod imo
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I think Buffs are fairly killable now but...once you start getting massed formations of them, they'll pretty much become unkillable regardless of how you attack them because of the firepower they can throw out.
Having Buffs being permitted to shoot through drones is BS - if anything, prevent this or...[insert evil laugh] make their gunfire hit their drone (bwahahahaha!!!!).
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heres a question i have does dropping your eggs actualy help????
Only reason you drop eggs before you roll at a vulched field is so you can lose alot of weight and get off the ground sooner so your guns will fire.
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The problem is that AH must strike a golden balance between gameplay and realism if it wants to be commercially successful.
With a fighter, you can jump into the cockpit and fly it and IMMEDIATELY start "having fun", i.e. going out and shooting stuff down.
However, if things were "realistic", if you were to climb into a bomber and attempt to fly it IMMEDIATELY and start "having fun", i.e. blowing stuff up on the ground, you would get killed. First of all, you'd get swarmed by fighters and killed - there was a reason why escort fighters were needed in WWII. And if you didn't fly at a reasonably high altitude, you'd get killed by flak - there was a reason why the only low level bomber attacks in WWII were either for special operations or in areas where the flak density was pretty low.
What this means is that if things are made "realistic" for bombers, a bomber pilot cannot IMMEDIATELY have fun. He'll have to organize a bunch of other bomber pilots together so they can fly in close formation and provide each other with mutual gunner support. He'll have to organize a bunch of fighter pilots to CAP ahead or provide escort. He'll also have to have the guys climb up to a high enough altitude to avoid getting killed by flak. All this translates into more of a barrier to having fun immediately for a guy who wants to fly a bomber.
Which is probably why things are the way they are with bombers right now.
If they made things "realistic", most of the action would be furballing because noone would want to fly bombers and HT would probably lose customers who are interested in flying bombers since for them to have fun, they would have to spend a lot of time actually planning out their raid.
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Gatt states......."Check the stats of many AH stars and vocal players and you'll find that only 5% of their kills are buffs, and much less are tough buffs like B-24s and B-17s."
Gatt good work!
Morpheous good to see you attacking the person AGAIN when your premise doesn't hold up to FACT....wondering if you are one of the vocal players Gatt is talking about!........SERIOUSLY I Can't remember the last time you ever even attacked my bombers????
999000
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When would one need to attack your bombers when you suicide them into a hot feild or into the side of a CV?
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Originally posted by 999000
Gatt states......."Check the stats of many AH stars and vocal players and you'll find that only 5% of their kills are buffs, and much less are tough buffs like B-24s and B-17s." Gatt good work!
999000
Hey ### dude. You remember me right? Thats all I used to do. Attack bombers and if I knew you guys were in the area, I kept comming. If you check my stats now you will see that I dont do that anymore. Many reasons for it but I'll list a few:
1) Plane selection. If I am in a Tyffy or LA7, I'll go after the buffs. If in a Yak or p40, Ki84 Spit, I run away. It is suaside and a waste of ammo.
2) Ammo. Even if I manage to get the kills, I will have to RTB ammo. Meaning, 10 mins to get to alt, 30 secs of making passes at the buffs, 10 mins rtb if I survive. I find that borring.
3) It is boring. I dont mean that in a bad way towards the buff drivers but look at it from a fighters perspective. If the buff driver is new, it is an easy kill of the buffs with a fighter damaged enough not to be able to fight (have fun). If the buff driver is a vet, it is insta death.
4) I get pissed when LANCs take my wins off from 1.5K out. I dont know about you, but I think that is not right.
Bottom line, I choose not to attack buffs now. Maybe some of the vocal guys do the same too. Why waste your time when you know the outcome of the fight? So, instead, I'll go after the closest fighter. No knowledge of the outcome there and if I survive, there is ammo to continue the fighting with other fighters.
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When i fly in the Main Arena i usually grab my Fw190 and head up to an altitude of 25-K + looking for bomber formations.When i attack them i expect too get shot down,if not then i shoot them down and go looking for more.A real bonus is when i run into another person from a different country that's doing the same thing and a fight ensues at 20-K plus.
Really is upping empty bombers the only way to break a cap on the field?
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its probaly not the only way to bust a cap but it sure is the easiest until ords get porked and btew that is the next thing i would do after vh considering how many people have starting to up buffs at a capped field.
dedalos i can respect that you do not attack buffs like you used to ( you going to buffsaa btw):D
this is all the same whine grip or discussion,realism in the ma can never be acomplished to full ww2 affect.YOU HAVE TO MANY AS YOU WOULD SAY GLITCHS IN THERE in real life would you vulch a field for a half hour or how about spawn camp??? these are things im sure tod or whatever it finaly will be called will take away (as i should).
BTW FOOFY I NEED SOME TRAINING IN THE DA IF YOU WOULD PLEASE
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Might not be the only one, but sure is the easyest and quickest one.
Not to mention the L-word. :rolleyes: :D
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last thing mORPH how do you suppose they could fix this issue and im being serious pleas dont take it as a spike id really like to now should A buff pilot only control 1 buff or maybe the answer is as you guys have said in air warrior death stars maybe alot of guys in one buff.
id like to see in this tod like the weds snapshot you start at a certain alt i dont think it matters if one cant climb to altitude or not.Just that they can actualy bomb with the cal set up
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Originally posted by tatertot
dedalos i can respect that you do not attack buffs like you used to ( you going to buffsaa btw):D
this is all the same whine grip or discussion,realism in the ma can never be acomplished to full ww2 affect.YOU HAVE TO MANY AS YOU WOULD SAY GLITCHS IN THERE in real life would you vulch a field for a half hour or how about spawn camp??? these are things im sure tod or whatever it finaly will be called will take away (as i should).
Just say when foo. :D
As far the buffs go, in my case atlist, it has nothing to do with reality cept the 1.5K thing. I don't vulch or spawn camp either cause that is boring as well. All I am saing is, why bother attacking a buff in a p40, yak, even Ki84 and spit when you know the outcome. There is no guessing there.
Now if I happen to have the alt and the firepower, I will come in for a pass or two. The only time I ever had some success against you guys was when I had a few K alt 30mms and you were shooting at something else. 30mms are hard to come by in our days and so does alt since chances are I found a fighter before the buffs and the first thing that happens is dive for the deck :D
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I'm with you Morph! guns on bombers are not realistic. it won't be long before people do start flying bomber formations into furballs. hell, 3 bomber formations grouped up could wipe out the entire group of nme fighters. even if all the fighters focused on the bombers (which they couldn't cause they are engaged w/fighters), about the best they could hope for is to knock down 4 out of the 9 planes. Good bomber pilots will just keep a tight formation and continue on. :O
<>
that is all......smoke'm if you got'em
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Ya but if buffs didn't have uber guns you would see much less of them.
I like working formations..if u dont get shot u get 2 to 3 kills.
Gameplay over realism imho.
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jb 28 at the risk of killing my rep :D i already do that !!!!! but i still agree its cheezy
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gotta disagree
there are plenty of fighter pilots in MA
who regularly wipe out everyone of my buffs
and fly off unscathed
they can do this because they have mastered
the art of attacking buffs in this game
in WW2 the germans learned very quickly
that american heavy bombers were a force to be reckoned
with and had to change their tatics
while your busy complaining to HT to reduce the effectiveness of buff guns
please add that the bombers should have an "auto-corkscrew" manuver
so guns can be manned without plane going into auto-level
"gerry's on our 6 captain!"
"no worries mate ill set the trim so we go straight and level"
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I'm not sure I'd agree that there's that big of a problem.
First, as to being "overpowered." In the December tour, look at the kills per deaths for level bombers. I rounded to the nearest thousand, checking model vs all countries.
Kills: 29,000
Deaths: 78,000
That's a KPD of 0.37. This means that level bombers did slightly worse than the Hurri2D (the one with 40mm) and a bit better than the C.202. Would you want to weaken the attacking power of either of those rides?
IN the MA world, buffs are FUNCTIONALLY very weak. Yes, a skilled pilot and gunner will own 95% of solo attackers -- but there are very few with those skills who fly buffs a lot. If I take pings at extreme ranges, I will only make VERY safe runs -- and will consider just looking for safer meat to hunt.
Watch the typical MA attack on buffs. 90% will climb slowly up to the buffs and attack from the 6 position, with very little E. Even when attackers start with extra alt, they almost always dive onto the 6, fly over the top, pull back, and park on the 6 again. When I'm setting up an attack, I really dont mind if someone else attacks first -- because almost every time, the attacker just pulls up behind and hacks away at the bomber.
Blaming the MA buff model is no different than blaming the unperked LA7. Either way, its not that hard to beat if you do it right -- and either way, a good pilot driving the bird is plain scary. But, most La7 pilots are inexperienced, and most buff drivers are killable.
Now as to the realism argument: In real life, a single fighter attacking a bomber foramtion --even 3 buffs -- had to be careful. The lowly Betty was lethal when first encountered, because pilots came up the six -- and were shredded. Once the real life pilots saw the dangers, and learned smarted attacks, they could take them apart. In europe, if the buffs were as vulnerable as it sounds in this thread, why'd the luftwaffe even bother to go to head on attacks? Why not just park on the 6 and shred the buffs?
In the MA, this situation is replicated. If you attack them wrong, you die. If you attack them right, you dont -- they do. In the MA, people CAN learn, but they usually dont. The same guys keep coming with essentially high risk profiles, outof impatience or bloodlust or whatever. The net effect of relevant factors (newbs in buffs, gun characteristics, altittudes, etc) shows that 2.7 bombers die for every fighter they kill.
Period.
I'm no ace, but I kill a lot of buffs. I'm 44:3 this tour, and each of the 3 deaths happened NOT when I got hammered by a screwed up buff model but when I got impatient and abandoned the secure attack profile. That's the way it should be if AH is trying to reproduce the FEEL of attacking buffs.
And as to CT The decisions HT has made, over literally years of experience, have resulted in a situation where A)people will fly buffs; B) teh buffs die a lot; C) the buffs kill if you screw up but die if you dont.
Consider the ppossibility that HT, with his experience and game design understanding, might make different decisions in this very different design situation.
Basically, calm down. I'll bet he'll give us the same result in CT that we have here: dangerous but doable, and likely to succeed if you're smart and do it right. Again, if you do it wrong, I'll bet you'll be skewered in CT.
But it wont be HT's fault.
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Nah AH2 buff guns don't scare me with people in them, now the AI buffs will prolly be a different story. I suck in fighters but give me a p51d, and a 3k alt advantage my record against bombers is pretty darn good even against the dreaded KI's(thanks to watching skatsr over and over).
Puck
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Hey bruno, what else other than the convergence being 500 and not 600 was wrong big guy? :aok
wrong? I used the word incorrect....
:aok
EDIT:
When I did the test I had tracers off so I only saw the pattern at 600 yards. I gotta PM saying 'check 500'.
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Originally posted by Simaril
I'm not sure I'd agree that there's that big of a problem.
First, as to being "overpowered." In the December tour, look at the kills per deaths for level bombers. I rounded to the nearest thousand, checking model vs all countries.
Kills: 29,000
Deaths: 78,000
That's a KPD of 0.37. This means that level bombers did slightly worse than the Hurri2D (the one with 40mm) and a bit better than the C.202. Would you want to weaken the attacking power of either of those rides?
Great stats. Can you tell how many of those buffs died from a colision with the CV, Droping bombs too low, or got PWNed by a FH?
Now as to the realism argument: In real life, a single fighter attacking a bomber foramtion --even 3 buffs -- had to be careful. The lowly Betty was lethal when first encountered, because pilots came up the six -- and were shredded. Once the real life pilots saw the dangers, and learned smarted attacks, they could take them apart. In europe, if the buffs were as vulnerable as it sounds in this thread, why'd the luftwaffe even bother to go to head on attacks? Why not just park on the 6 and shred the buffs?
[/B]
And yet, all the gun cam films from WWII that I have seen, show a german plane parked on a buffs 6 firing short bursts.
Are you really saing that 1.5K wing removals from a few pings of 303s are realistik?
As far as the CT/TOD goes, I would not wory about it for a long time. FPS and warping will be so bad around big buff formations that all this will not be an issue.
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Simaril.... take the kills of and deaths by GVs out of the mix, the K/D will probably drop even lower.
Dedalos, the gun camera clips that you've seen have one thing in common. In all of them, the tail gunner is dead or otherwise incapacitated. The .303s maximum range is shorter than 1.5k, as well, unless somethings been changed in the couple years since I tested it. IIRC, the .50 went out to ~1400 yards before disappearing, the .303 was considerably shorter.
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comparing kills to death with buffs is highly subjective..as is any stat..getting in the air is half the battle..ive seen one newb launch over 10 sorties in less than 5 minutes..thats 30 planes he augered trying to take off into a mountain.. wish there was a stat for deaths after being pinged by a ftr or ack etc...
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Simaril, Big
SIR!
Nice to see a well rounded educated response sir!
999000
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I agree that the stats arent proof of anything -- but it does make it harder to argue that buffs are overwhelming and armed with lazers.
I'd think the better, more convincing stats come from the KPDs of people who make a point of killing buffs, like SkatSr.
Experience in the MA pretty consistantly shows that the majority of deaths to buffs come from those who use suicidal attack profiles. Low deltaV, low delta angles almost all the time -- so even weak gunners get kills. How many conga lines do you think will form up behind buffs tonite? That's not HTs fault, its not the models fault.
I've only been hit at appropriate setup ranges -- well beyond 1k -- very rarely. I cant remember ever dying to it. The pings I take at those ranges are annoying, not deadly -- and if I get an oil hit, i go home. I'm betting that most recollections of being 1 ping killed by 303s at 1.5K are either honestly incorrect or exaggerated. I'd love to see the film...but even if it HAS happened, I'll bet its about as frequent as losing a fighter to falling bombs.
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Morph makes a good point. I have a nice collection of LW guncam showing LW fighters, 109s, 110s, Me410s, and 190s attacking a formation in unison.
the most sickening part of the film I saw was a single 190 dirctly on the 6 of a B17 just laying into it with all guns. It took out the electrical system completely, all turret guns dropped and completely devasted that B17. Parts were falling from the 17 in huge chunks.....even a prop came off.
Another good point brought forth was allowing ony 1 bomber per flight. That sounds more realistic to me. If countries wish to bomb they should get several gents or ladies to fly them as stated before in tight formation for mutual defense as they did in WWII. LeMay designed the Box formation for that reason. Heck...if they can have more then one buff allow the fighter pilots to have an Al wingman.
Also....in the guncam I have the LW did not shy away from attacking these formations. they came headon...oblique actually from any angle to attack them. A single bomber had no chance. The fifties couldn't protect it very well from one determined FW Pilot.
Also....dive bombing heavy bombers is unrealistic and games the game here. And then after dive bombing flying the formation and turning them like Don Gentile in his B Pony is rediculous. It's gotten out of hand to the point that oft times bombers don't fly over 4 to 5K to hit an enemy base so that fighters can't atttack from underneath and gives the bomber pilot the advantage of forcing the fighters to stay co alt or better to stay in better view and eliminate the attack of the underside of the bomber. And the bombers fly straight through the ack below 4K and maybe one engine gets smoked. After dropping ord the low level buffs turn around and take the ack out with their 50s cals. Don't think that happened in the real world.
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morpheus does have a good point. so much so that I would consider using him for a dart.
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I agree with DREDIOCK and FiLTH..
From my experience, I fly bombers 95% of the time and took me a while to be effecient on the guns.
99% of the time people dont know how to attack and know when to give up. C'mon you're attacking a set of 3 from a single fighter.(a majority of the time)
In WW2 the Luftwaffe attack in packs against a pack of B17's..etc
Are guns in bombers inaccurate? Not enough to make a difference.
No one knows if all planes are accurate I mean.. did you fly one in combat?
Make a difference in your performance, when to quit and head home when you know you cant take 3 bombers all by yourself.
And by the way.. bomber pilots like myself fly AH almost daily.. so i get a lot of gunnery practice.
27th
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I'm agreeing with Simaril, as another dedicated buff hunter (62-5, mostly in jugs) I don't see the problem either when the attack is set up properly. There's maybe only 4 or 5 buff gunners in the whole arena that are dangerous when you don't give them the easy kill flying in the 6 cone.
On the other hand, I usually hold 1.0 k:d in buffs myself but I keep that by flying at alt on my runs. I'd estimate there's about 15-20% of the arena flyers that know how to attack a bomber effectively. Luckily for bombers, they're not the only ones hunting buffs :)
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That's because you probably haven't met anyone who knows to gun properly, Booz.
I guarantee it - if its someone like 999 or tatertot, it doesn't matter if you are overhead, under, sideways, or HO. You may be able to knock out one~two buffs in the first pass, but whatever your approach, you are gonna be hurt, and really bad.
The only way to really safely knock buffs out, is to go at least 3 vs 1. Three interceptors against one formation, all of them approaching at different directions.
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Ah! Should be interesting to know which plane is the deadliest buff hunter in the game, in # of kills and k/d ratio.
One should keep in mind that hunting buffs with a P-47N or a K-4 are two slightly different things, hence tactics. I've seen some wonderful AH films of Ponies and Jugs hunting buffs at (+/-) 20K, with tactics you cant easily use in a K-4 or even in a (plenty of ammo) 190A-8.
I mean, posts, replies and (so called) whines about buff hunting and gunners lethality have to be judged cautiously, considering first the fighter and then the tactic used.
Hmmm, am I posting something understandable? :huh
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I've run into tatertot, he's one of the 5 buff gunners I respect :) but he's only 44-74 gunning in buffs even if you give him Ki's. How many of those were GV kills?
You yourself are 26-2 vs the big buffs Kweassa, are you saying guns are too deadly or are all those coordinated attacks? I usually kill em solo.
Btw, I just checked Shawk... 117-0 vs buffs.
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Originally posted by gatt
Ah! Should be interesting to know which plane is the deadliest buff hunter in the game, in # of kills and k/d ratio.
I'd bet on the F4U1-C leading the pack, it's the ultimate CV defense bird. Lots of lower targets (almost all cv attackers are under 12k) and it wins if it hits.
As far as buff gunnery goes, I think the modelling is good for the game. But I DO think that the calibration routine needs to go back to the more difficult mode, it's too easy for a single buff formation that gets through to disrupt the circle jerks' game. Accuracy with the harder mode was still possible, you just had to get 18k+ to be allowed the opportunity to calibrate well, not as many are willling to take that time. It would eliminate a lot of the 10-6k hangar banger dweebs that unfairly disrupt action flying unrealistically in MA, they may still come but they'd miss much much more.
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why do you see films of germans just pummeling b17/b24's from dead six at close range... seemingly taking their time shooting at engines and wing roots?
simple... the gunners on the fluffs are all dead. even weak german machine guns sending 20 0r 50 rounds down that flimsy tube of aluminum that is a fluff... even those often rifle caliber bullets will only stop when they hit meat...
Imagine 100 50 caliber rounds shredding every human that doesn't have armor plate between him and the fighter pouring rounds into the fluff from even a ded six at even 400 yards.
The gunners don't die easy enough.... and... as morph says.. The guns all being slaved to one mouse weilder makes for some pretty unrealistic results.
But then... if it was a little more realistic in results..... who would do it?
It is like bombing CV's... they are about as durable as light bulbs and as easy to hit as the ground in this game... the models seem ok it is just the results that don't make sense... level 4 engine bombers never sank a cv in real life combat.. here... it is childs play.
mixing fighters and bombers in a game without 10 man crewed bombers or fear of death is a difficult proposition...
making so that one mouse weilder can do the work of 30 guys and still get realistic results seems impossible.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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booz thanks for thge words! trust me it takes along time to be efficient with a buff gun those 44-74 is exactly what i mean what is thaqt like 60% of the time i die its all in the attack you can say whatever about the lazer tags on buffs but if you make the right approach im dead tyrust me,mostguys dont take the time to be patiant on a attack,from the 6 or 12 almost always does equal a death for the fighter from high 11 or 2 means a death for the buff most likely.9 and 3 are a tuff shot in 17s and 26s but not as bad in a ki so its all the same imo you fighter guys know your bullet pattern or were to place the shot. buffs do have a advantage but you still have to know the gun set up angle of the shot and were the spray will go
id like to do a setup in the da sometime were myself and anyone else would like to fly buffs could go against some fighters so we can actualy post these attack ideas anyone interested???
we could leave the lazer idea out !!!!!!!!
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most people don't take the time to get the best shot on the fluffs because they know that the low level, mouse weilding, enemy of fun, suicide porker is on his way to killing the best fight on the map by taking out the carports called fighter hangers or the bulb glass CV...
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Yep, LW gun cameras are not useful to judge real gunners response. I've seen many of those films and almost always you can see scattered formations or crippled stragglers being attacked.
Nonetheless, the fact that it was only the tail gunner able to fire against level 6'oc attackers (and maybe the dorsal turret) ... and not the all the guns of the buff, *is* important as far as lethality is concerned. This "feel free to fire thru your buff and the other buffs" is annoying indeed.
Tater,
true, most fighter pilots dont have the patience to position themselves (and their wingies) in the right position before the attack. Yesterday I was winging with DC in our two K-4 and nailed a B-24 vic. I climbed forward and positioned myself 2,000yds in front of the buffs. DC climbed 2.5 above and slightly behind them. Then I reversed and attacked Head-On: the buff pilot was fixated on DC so I put on fire the central buff, in the meantime DC came down and shot down a second buff and got the third kill as well. The whole thing took some minutes to build and honestly I seldom have the patience to do it. But it was worth it, indeed :)
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see gatt you tag teamed the 24s right ??? anyone in the ma who is attacking the buffs by thereselves is a 95% kill imo or at least severe damage you stated target fixation when i gun i do just around alot gun to gun this atleast gives me a chance i never have a gunner onboard myself again i am not against the issue at hand all guns shouldnt fire at the same time my biggest poiunt is i dont think this is as easily fixed in the ma as it would be in the ca or tod arenas because of the fact ma ive personaly never had escorts how many guys can say everytime they up buffs excorts are along???? even in missions your escorts get spread out.
lazer guns have been discussed for along time i just dont see it as a easy fix myself,maybe just a little change for the ma would suffice soime ,like the fact 3 buffs ok only 3 guns control at same time ie if your in tail turret thats all that fire and or same for ball etc .
my biggest question is what is everyone askikng for anyway
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ok i actualy went back and reread what Morph is talking about and i actualy agree to a point,ive stated this in a earlier replay,but here comes what i do not agree with everyone states that buff guns are not realistic ok like i said i agree but for every thing that is realistic there are many points of this game that is not right???????? isnt this what they are trying to do in tod give you the idea you are actualy a pilot of ww2 rank missions and such
case number 1 ) furballing isnt realistic either is it
2) no one in ww2 spawned to a vh and camped most battles were on the move unless either side was dug in ??? am i not right ??/
3) cv has much much more defense a 110 couldnt straff its guns and live
and this is my crime i admit it but over the last 4 yrs i do live after i drop it now in most cases just for the sake of a argument
4)vulching for 30 min wasnt done i believe this could be argued to a point 51s and such did straff runways ammo dumps vhs towns what ever
my point is tod is gonna take the ma idea away and make it a more relistic pilot deal right ??? if they were to change just buffs guns they would have toi revamp everything in the ma that is unrealistic because some one is always not going to agree with something.
be patient its aclose as you will get to ww2 pilot realism in your life right ????
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booz just how do you check all that i have filmed shawks attacks on me and 999000 and it is probaly one of the top 2 attacks even studying his approach i cannot kill him and niether can 999000 like i said master the approach before we condem it all !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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One additional thought on the LW gun cams:
The only ones we get to see are the ones where the guy lived.
How many others tried the 6 attack against live gunners and never lived? Since the data set is skewed, its results will be biased.
I'd encourage usto thnk about the Buff situation from the GAMEPLAY standpoint rather than the reproduced realtity standpoint. Like Lazs said,
mixing fighters and bombers in a game without 10 man crewed bombers or fear of death is a difficult proposition...
Look at the end results, and I gotta say that the EFFECT of our current setup is about right for the game. And, it comes close enought to reality - attack bufs wrong and your dead, but do it right and they are -- pretty darn well.
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As far as CVs, it's worth pointing out that carriers are HARDLY used intelligently in the MA. No CV commander during the real war would park his ship a mile off the runway within range of shore defenses, OR sit in one place while a formation of bombers roared overhead.
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lazs2
u are in error sir regarding to use of 4 engine bombers
against capital ships.
the sister ship of the bizmark the turpitz (might have spelled it wrong)
was actively hunted by a group of British Lancs who eventually caught up
to it and sunk it in a fiord of Norway.
I can also assure u that sinking a well defended CV in buffs is not childsplay.
As far as buffs ruining your furball or more likely your vultchfest
i will concede that if there is a vultchfest/furball going on over my field
yes i will drop FHs at nearest enemy base....
this is not to "ruin your fun" this is so my countrymen can get off the ground
and move the "furball" to over your field instead of mine. hopefully my
countrymen can get a cap going and eventually we take your field.
as a final note to all the anti-buff crowd.....
dont forget the DA is open 24 hours for endless furballing enjoyment
pretty rare to find a "no skill toolsheding buff dweeb" dropping hangers
in there.
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IMHO there are only a few buff sticks out there that can hit a plane diving in the blind spot between the tail gun and top gun, one of them being 999000, but now I'm on the same side as him I really don't have the evil fear of the lazer guns anymore. I would say 90% of the time I can knock out all 3 buffs, any kind with just about any AC, but there are a few buff sticks that employ the "freaking lazer beams" and seem to make impossible shots
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iceman taking your point of view is it a game issue or id the gunner a good shot???
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sorry should have made it more clear.... I think it has more to do with the stick than the way the guns are modded, like so many other aspects of this game, like using field guns for example, if you practice long enough and do enough sorty's then eventually you will develop uncanny skills, such as 999000 with his "freakin lazer beams" and zazen in his magic "osti of death" or even Morph in a spitfire... if you fly it, drive it or shoot it long enough you will eventually be able to pop anything from aways out... I used to not be able to hit crap in a fighter, but after working at it I can now hit planes using a snapshot at like D800-D1000 out in a 38. I do however see yall's point about all the guns converging at D600 and do agree there should be some type of randomizer or something that throws the guns off a little, maybe make it to where when you shoot the .50 cals the screen shakes or something because of the recoil of the guns. On the topic of accuracy, I have heard and read about strategy's and missions where the US would up a large group of B25's and not put any ordinance in them, but they had extra .50 cal ammo, and they would fly in large formations trying to sucker in german attackers, they also had P51's flying escort, but the main reason was to sucker them in and chew em to pieces with the buff guns, then once they were focussed on the B25's the pony's would drop in and waste em...
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prince of wales and repulse
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Originally posted by gatt
Yep, LW gun cameras are not useful to judge real gunners response.
WHy not?
Gun cameras movies here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2522332309187641888)
and -> here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2257018867806151378)
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yes it was lancs that got the tirpitz
12 November 1944 R.A.F. 32 Lancasters Tromsø 3 hits and 2 near misses
Tirpitz sunk
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How many others tried the 6 attack against live gunners and never lived? Since the data set is skewed, its results will be biased.
Almost all Sturmgruppen attacked dead 6 in a wedge or line abreast formation. The tail gun on B17 had a dispersion of 45 feet on the ground at 600 yards. In flight this would have been much larger.
...like the armored knights in the Middle Ages, we were well protected. A Staffel might lose one or two aircraft during the advance, but the rest continued relentlessly on. Positioned now about 100m behind the bombers the Staffel leader barked out the order to open fire:
Pauke! Pauke!...
From such a range the Staffel could hardly miss, and the 3cm explosive rounds struck home. Just 2 rounds could take the tail off a B-17. A B-24's fuselage structure was not as sturdy. The enemy bombers literally fell apart in front of the Sturmgruppe.
The whole 12 o'clock high or head-on attacks were mostly ineffective as only the most skilled pilots could hope to score hits on the first pass. When they missed where did the end up? In 6 o'clock chase. By the time they turned around the escorts would have been called in. As such themost effective tactic was to attack the bombers from the rear with a moderate closure rate in formation and shoot them down.
As for the gun cams the bomber guns, one in every 5 rounds wasn't a tracer like in AH so you wouldn't see most of the rounds fired. The reason why it was easy to kill the gunners is because the LW could easily get into close range. Not just the gunner would be killed by the hydraulics knocked out disabling the turrets (top / bottom)
What happened to the Sturmgruppen was they were ordered not to engage fighters but to stay in formation and push through to the bombers. When escorts were around they easily set up to break up the formation and shoot down many of the attackers.
In AH the Bomber gunners are made to be more accurate / lethal then real life as a game play decision. No attempt to rationalize how 'real' they are holds water. We had a guy in our squad whose grandfather was a B-24 tail gunner, when asked specifically whether the gun on the bombers were an effective defense he said 'no, it was a miracle to score even one hit let alone shoot down an attacker'. Of course some LW were shot down by the bombers guns but they were no where near as effective as in AH.
If bomber guns were made real, then no one would fly bombers. The only reason many fly them now is because they can tool about 1000 ft playing ack star. Since HTC sees no need to make any adjustment the best thing to do is just ignore them. They will get bored and find something else to do.
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Originally posted by soupcan
yes it was lancs that got the tirpitz
12 November 1944 R.A.F. 32 Lancasters Tromsø 3 hits and 2 near misses
Tirpitz sunk
It was docked though, not manuevering at sea.
I will also add that attacking from the front is just like HOing up to a 18 .50cal MGed plane. Just like attacking the rear but with a shorter firing time.
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Originally posted by jaxxo
ive seen one newb launch over 10 sorties in less than 5 minutes..thats 30 planes he augered trying to take off into a mountain
Jeez he must've been a real knob brain noob to think you're supposed to take off into a mountain rather than the sky...;)
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in Gerald Astors "The Mighty Eighth" there was a tail gunner quoted as saying.
"They lined up about 1000 ft behind us and high, and sprayed with their 20mm. They could hit us from there, but we only had an effective range of about 600ft and couldnt hit them."
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SD beat me to the Tirpitz being docked.
The B-17 was designed with the purpose of coastal defense in mind. This role was abandoned the moment it became clear high-alt horizontal bombers couldn't hit the broad side of a battleship with the broadside of a battleship at altitude while at sea.
I've seen a GREAT picture taken at Midway from one of the B-17s sent up to attack the Japanese fleet. I think it's of the Akagi doing donuts with the eggs from the Forts splashing down harmlessly in the middle of the circle.
Not surprisingly, if you have the CVs doing that when a buff formation rolls through in the MA, most of the time I've noticed the carrier escapes severe, if any, damage.
Also, as a point of order, Prince of Wales and Repulse were, IIRC, sunk by Japanese dive bombers, torpedo planes, and low altitude level bombing in what was sort of a "trial run" of the Pearl Harbor raid, NOT by high-altitude level bombers (also, IIRC, they were ALSO in port at the time).
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Originally posted by ghi
WHy not?
Gun cameras movies here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2522332309187641888)
and -> here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2257018867806151378)
Look, I'm a dedicated buff hunter (check my stats to be sure) and I dont like how bomber gunners are actually modeled in AH2. That said, honestly speaking, I cant say that real gun cameras are the *main* proofs of this game concession. For the reasons already explained: scattered formations, stragglers, gun cameras are from fighters who actually survived. Its difficult to get a gun camera from a 190/109/110 shot down by bomber gunners, isnt it :)
But again, IMO the whole thing as Bruno and others said is a game concession to let buffs play, survive and enjoy the game. On one thing I dont agree, I'll not ignore them, I'll chase them all over Knight's sky ;)
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all manned guns in AH have the same problem - no recoil.
From B17 gunners through Ostwind to field acks, there's no shaking and you can fine-point the gun, shoot and correct while shooting. It should be more like the Tanks cannons that kick you a little off your mark when fired. It will make long spraying bursts hard to aim and spread more than short interval bursts.
I think there are two related problems too:
1. buffs are very easy to shoot down. They break too easily and should be more durable.
2. gunners are not killed often enough.
Bozon
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People seem to disregard the fact that bomber gunners were systematically let to overclaim victories to boost morale in midst of heavy losses.
Some estimates say that only 10% of the kills were actually done from the whole claims.
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Of all the guncam footage that shows the jerries on the tail of a bomber hanging there it's 6...
How much footage wound up buried in the dirt underneath a burning hulk of a luftwaffe plane? :D
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From all the accounts I've read attacking bombers seemed to be a turkey shoot.
I vividly remember how the pilot described that he moved so close he could see the eyewhites of the gunner before he killed him with a short spray of mgs.
After the gunner was out of the way, he parked 20m away from the steady and straight flying formations furthest plane and set its engine on fire. Then proceed to next, rinse and repeat.
During WW2 a single 109 shot down 6 russian medium bombers in about 10 minutes time on top of my home city. He rtb'd without a scratch - empty of ammo.
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Originally posted by soupcan
lazs2
u are in error sir regarding to use of 4 engine bombers
against capital ships.
the sister ship of the bizmark the turpitz (might have spelled it wrong)
was actively hunted by a group of British Lancs who eventually caught up
to it and sunk it in a fiord of Norway.
Parked
as a final note to all the anti-buff crowd.....
dont forget the DA is open 24 hours for endless furballing enjoyment
It is also open for endless killing of HQ and other very important enemy assets
pretty rare to find a "no skill toolsheding buff dweeb" dropping hangers
in there.
You would be surprised
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Originally posted by Urchin
Simaril.... take the kills of and deaths by GVs out of the mix, the K/D will probably drop even lower.
Dedalos, the gun camera clips that you've seen have one thing in common. In all of them, the tail gunner is dead or otherwise incapacitated. The .303s maximum range is shorter than 1.5k, as well, unless somethings been changed in the couple years since I tested it. IIRC, the .50 went out to ~1400 yards before disappearing, the .303 was considerably shorter.
Dont forget to take out the kills from those uber FHs comming up and hitting the buffs HO.
Exactly, if a gunner takes a mouthfull of 50s, 20s, or even 303s, chances are he will stop shooting very fast due to death or gun troble. I know I would. In any case, how do you know that the gunner was dead in every single film I have seen?
As far as the 1.5K, well thats what the screen said. I appologise if it was really only 1.4K:D.
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Because if the clips are anything like the ones I've seen, if the gunner wasn't dead, there wouldn't be a clip.
Bozon had it right IMO, in the game buffs seem to fragile, but gunners seem to tough. I'm pretty sure I've seen a 20mm shell compared to a grenade (in terms of explosive power). If a grenade landed on the tail gunners spot of a B-17, I'd imagine that the gun would be out of action even if the gunner wasn't killed outright.
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soupcan.... I am in error? Please, list the CV's that were knocked out by 4 engine bombers... hell... I will settle for capital ships sunk that weren't sitting still in port.
As for going to the DA because there are no mouse weilding enemies of fun there.....
Well... Of course there aren't.... they get no attention ruining peoples fun in the DA.
Lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Ha...this old argument again?
Its sorta the norm. Why use tactics to destroy a buff...when one can go to the forums and cry about how unfair it is they have the ability to...gasp...shoot back.
I know a LOT of fighter guys out there who use some very very good tactics to drop my bombers. Its the guys who sit on my dead-6 at 600 feet...I promptly kill...who PM and insist my guns are porked. Uh huh.
:p
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Because if the clips are anything like the ones I've seen, if the gunner wasn't dead, there wouldn't be a clip.
I dunno what clips you have seen but the average LW pilot had only 2 % hit rate against a bomber firing from 300 yards. How close do you think he needs to be to aim at and 'kill' a gunner'?
There's plenty of LW accounts of shooting bombers at point blank range with very few rounds. I quoted this above:
...like the armored knights in the Middle Ages, we were well protected. A Staffel might lose one or two aircraft during the advance, but the rest continued relentlessly on. Positioned now about 100m behind the bombers the Staffel leader barked out the order to open fire:
Pauke! Pauke!...
From such a range the Staffel could hardly miss, and the 3cm explosive rounds struck home. Just 2 rounds could take the tail off a B-17. A B-24's fuselage structure was not as sturdy. The enemy bombers literally fell apart in front of the Sturmgruppe.
They had to get in close just to hit the bomber, even closer to hit specific points on the bomber. According to the above pilot he says it took two 3cm hits to take a tail off a B-17, how many does it take in AH? AH bombers are neither to fragile nor were the gunners accurate enough to fend off fighters.
As MrRiplEy[H] said bombers were cannon fodder left alone with out escort.
Bombers in AH are far more lethal and accurate then they were in RL. This a game play decision not 'realism'.
If the bomber folks were forced to fly bombers as they were in rl no one would fly them. They are boring enough as is but would be even more so if the were forced to form up in a large section, climb, take an in direct course to to the IP. Not to mention who's is going to escort them on a long boring flight?
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Originally posted by lazs2
soupcan.... I am in error? Please, list the CV's that were knocked out by 4 engine bombers... hell... I will settle for capital ships sunk that weren't sitting still in port.
As for going to the DA because there are no mouse weilding enemies of fun there.....
Well... Of course there aren't.... they get no attention ruining peoples fun in the DA.
Lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
prince of wales and repulse
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Those of you claiming the Tirpitz was sunk by 'level' bombers need to read up on the effort it took to sink it. It certainly was sunk by 'level' bombers but by modified Lancasters and they didn't level bomber from altitude.
So the sinking of a stationary ship took many many sorties and special trained Lancaster crews with modified bombers is hardly evidence of the lethality of 'level bombers vs shipping'.
As for the Prince of Wales and Repulse, check the effort it took to sink them.They weren't sunk by level bombers either...
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i was merely trying to point out that 4 engine bombers did go after captial
ships (turpitz)and they were used plenty to find and sink german u-boats as well.
as far as "ruining you fun" i could care less about your furball as long as its not over my base. i have never nor do i intend to ever bomb hangers in fightertown
(which i think every map should have)
fighter town should be just that......... no buff hangers or ords
and surround it with 80k mountains. that way if guys want to furball
they can and if they decide to go join the base takers later they can do that
too. i hope we can at least agree on that point. heck i am not anti-furball
sometimes i like to do it myself. i just get frustrated with the constant buff bashing.
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Originally posted by soupcan
as far as "ruining you fun" i could care less about your furball as long as its not over my base. i have never nor do i intend to ever bomb hangers in fightertown
(which i think every map should have)
Soup, us furballers have no problem with those bomber pilots who have a purpose behind taking down fighter hangers. The problem is, anymore your avg buffer is out for no other reason than to stop a fight that is threating nobody. Just last night there was a fight between rooks at A4 and nits(can't remember their base number). I swear to you the only planes that got to the airfeild were 6kish B24s and B17s who would then dive in to carpet bomb the hangers. I think I saw a total of 10-12 formation come in wave after wave with no fighter cover, no goons, only hitting the FH? To be clear, it wasn't a mission, just a bunch of random buffs coming in every 30 secs or so. Against that, the 7 or so fighters that were up could not shoot them all down in time especially when the got up some speed in their dive. It was truely one of the sadest specticals I have seen in all my time here. It is those kind of people that I think most of us complain about and gives bombers in general a bad name.
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superdud-
well said sir
i too am not a fan of dive bombing lancs, 17s or 24s.
although i will use 24s at low altitude to drop on gvs in defence of my field,
i always use my bomb site (level flight).
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Originally posted by Bruno
According to the above pilot he says it took two 3cm hits to take a tail off a B-17, how many does it take in AH? AH bombers are neither to fragile nor were the gunners accurate enough to fend off fighters.
I have hit a bomber up to six times with 37mm on an Osti and had it fly off with just an engine smoking. Lancaster as I recall.
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Originally posted by soupcan
superdud-
well said sir
i too am not a fan of dive bombing lancs, 17s or 24s.
although i will use 24s at low altitude to drop on gvs in defence of my field,
i always use my bomb site (level flight).
I second that.
I too have seen many a good fight totally ruined by the guys who send wave after wave of unescorted heavies to take down the hangars with no intention of a base capture. Bombers can soak up so much damage (i.e. run the defending fighters out of ammo) and have the laser guns ... so things go from fun to completely pointless in a matter of minutes once this crap starts.
And when people take of a flight of B17's or B24's or Ki67's from a heavily CAP'd field, it's pretty obvious why.
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Einsatz gegen 4-mot-Bomber (http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Casino/Filme/Wochenschauen/JG4-Movie-69.mpg)
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The problem is, anymore your avg buffer is out for no other reason than to stop a fight that is threating nobody
Maybe if you stopped crying about they would not do that anymore
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Originally posted by Bruno
I dunno what clips you have seen but the average LW pilot had only 2 % hit rate against a bomber firing from 300 yards. How close do you think he needs to be to aim at and 'kill' a gunner'?
I think bomber's gunners has same problems with aiming.
In game fighters have far better hit rate, why gunners must be as bad as real?
Originally posted by Bruno
Bombers in AH are far more lethal and accurate then they were in RL.
Sure. Fighters in AH far more lethal and accurate then they were in RL also.
Originally posted by Bruno
This a game play decision not 'realism'.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Maybe if you stopped crying about they would not do that anymore
You might be right, but I don't think so.
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I have hit a bomber up to six times with 37mm on an Osti and had it fly off with just an engine smoking. Lancaster as I recall.
If you like I have a video where I counted a salvo of 7 30mm hits in the tail of a B17 which flew away. If I recall correctly it didn't even lose half elevator.
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Originally posted by Oleg
I think bomber's gunners has same problems with aiming.
In game fighters have far better hit rate, why gunners must be as bad as real?
You got a point or do I needed a magic decoder ring to figure out what it is?
I already described the unrealistic ease that bomber gunners have in aiming:
Now add to the fact that the bombers are the most stable gun platform in the game (no vibration or gun shake) and it's easy to keep the attacker sited in. It's impossible to get in a blind spot or attack unseen (external view and icons) unless the pilot is asleep or AFK. Also, the bullets aren't affected by the slip stream (they neither rise nor fall etc...). It also appears that AHs damage values are dependent upon impact velocity (when closing on a bomber from the rear you fly into his rounds and thus they 'hit harder') and these are the reason for the 'lethality' of the AH bomber gunners.
Sure. Fighters in AH far more lethal and accurate then they were in RL also.
[/b]
Nonsense:
The Luftwaffe estimated that it took an average of 20 hits from the 20mm cannon to destroy a B-17. Analysis of gun camera film revealed that the average German pilot scored hits with only 2 percent of the rounds fired, thus on average, 1000 rounds were fired to score the 20 hits required.
On average it takes more then 20 MG151/2cm hits to kill a bomber in AH. Players in AH may have a higher Hit % and fire less rounds to land 20 hits but that doesn't mean much.
The LW estimates to kill a bomber with 3cm it took on average 1-3 hits. Read my quote above:
...like the armored knights in the Middle Ages, we were well protected. A Staffel might lose one or two aircraft during the advance, but the rest continued relentlessly on. Positioned now about 100m behind the bombers the Staffel leader barked out the order to open fire:
Pauke! Pauke!...
From such a range the Staffel could hardly miss, and the 3cm explosive rounds struck home. Just 2 rounds could take the tail off a B-17. A B-24's fuselage structure was not as sturdy. The enemy bombers literally fell apart in front of the Sturmgruppe.
In regards to fighters in AH, if it requires more rounds to bring down an aircraft then a higher hit % doesn't necessarily mean more lethality.
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the bombers guns are fine. i think you guys should stop attacking from the tail.
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Originally posted by the Lazy ace
the bombers guns are fine. i think you guys should stop attacking from the tail.
Ok. How about no F3 view.
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Originally posted by bozon
all manned guns in AH have the same problem - no recoil.
From B17 gunners through Ostwind to field acks, there's no shaking and you can fine-point the gun, shoot and correct while shooting.
Bozon
The Comparison of the Buff guns to the Osti or the Field ack is apples to oranges.
The Osti has recoil and a slow rate of fire. The field ack has slow rate of fire.
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Originally posted by Bruno
In regards to fighters in AH, if it requires more rounds to bring down an aircraft then a higher hit % doesn't necessarily mean more lethality.
I dont fly luftwaffe planes so i dont know how many MG151/20's or MK108's rounds needed to shot b24 down. By my estimate it need about 50-70x12mm to completely rip a wing if you aim good. In my best buff hunting sortie in F4U1D i shot down 7 B-17/B-24s before got oil leak and still had enough ammo for 2 or 3 more buffs. So i dont think they too strong.
Back to hit rate, average hit rate in AH 5-10 times higher then average RL rate. Even if buffs are stronger than real they not even near so stronger. And i believe fighters are stronger too.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
For every gun on a bomber that can aim in the direction of where your shooting, to converge all at the exact same point, at 600 yards, is rediculous. Gunners where not this good, ever. What we have now is better than the radar guided guns on B52s.
I surely hope this is not what ToD or whatever its called will be like. Something needs to be done. By the time a 109 gets into firing range of a B17 he will be minus both wings and flaming down to earth.
IMO something needs to be done. This is not just a gripe because I die to buff guns. It's also because when I fly them I have no problem shooting nme planes down 1 after the next like fish in a barrel. They are so on par with the unrealistic FM of buffs its not funny. As it is they can drop bombs from any angle at any speed under any situation. Add to that these lazers and they're just a joke.
That many "Something needs to be done"s that close together. Means it was a GRIPE!!
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B24's had six gunners per plane, B17's had 8 gunners per plane. In formations you can do the multiplication. You can bet your plane they would shred anything that came up on their six nice and slow and steady like some lazier or less informed fighter pilots. Accuracy a joke and not realistic? I don't think so. It's not realistic to think that you can come up on a heavily armed bomber and just sit there at the six and shoot it.
Hit Lancasters from below between the outboard and inboard engine, it goes down without a good portion of the wing. It's guns never had a chance to touch you. Perform a high angles attack on it and stay the heck out of it's six and the worst you face is .303's and they rarely touch you.
B17's and B24's easily catch fire. Attack one from below and you should be toast. Attack one from above at high angles and you've got 50's to face, but again they can hardly touch you if you do it correctly.
If more than one fighter attacks in coordinated fashion from opposite sides, the bombers are toast.
The guns aren't too accurate. There's only one or two guys shooting at you and they can't be at every gun position at once. Think of it as facing a guy at each gun position on each bomber and assume they're half way competent at what they're doing. Approach them as a real fighter pilot would and you'll find the results are realistic. Approach them as a newb would and you'll find those results are realistic too.