Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Kweassa on January 21, 2006, 08:05:19 PM
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Been flying Axis vs Allied for two days - and I admit it's been the most fun I've had in AH for months. Flying in the MA with a lot of people is fun. But all the hangar busting... chasing around 380mph deck planes.. knocking out buffs 2k above ground... gets just lame sometimes.
The year is still early in the war in the AvA. The Battle of Britain is raging.. and the planes are perfectly matched up. However, I seem to notice a small tendency that usually at equal numbers, the RAF are a bit hard-pressed.
So, for anybody new to the AvA arena, the Battle of Britain, here's a bit of a tip to help you out..
1. Pilot Quality
Without false praise, I dare say the general quality of the pilots is higher in the Luftwaffe this setup. Some excellent dedicated 109 pilots are flying there. There is no shame in acknowledging a great enemy - the Luftwaffe a higher number of skilled pilots.
There is a number of reasons for this. Like mentioned many of the Axis pilots in the current AvA year (1940, is it?), are dedicated Luftwaffe pilots. They are very much used to the plane they are flying. On the other hand, for a bit obvious reason, most of the "light users" seem to prefer the RAF - which usually brings out a problem in pilot quality. Not necessarily the flying skill itself, but rather, a general "discipline" seems to be lacking.
RAF pilots, try to move in a group, and fight as a group... and even more importantly, retreat as a group. The English Channel is very narrow. You don't have enough time to fight alone, shoot down many enemies, and return alone.
Contact each other a lot. Check-6s are a must give.
2. Get out of the "MA-Spit" mindset
While the Spitfire MkIa does outturn the E-4, it does not as handily outturn it as in the latter models. The Bf109E-4, in this timeline, under right hands, can literally hang with a Spitfire easily in the turns. Not to mention that they have cannons. They have the ability to take quick snapshots as kills, but the RAF Spitfires and Hurricanes need a continuous barrage of 30calibre machine guns.
This is where the problem starts. Since the Spitfire is such an excellent plane, it is so often that the enemy 109E is just out of your grasp. You follow him in turns, land a few pings, but don't see the results. This makes you even more determined, as you feel you are inches away from victory.
However, this is when the Luftwaffe strikes hard. They've got cannons. They've got the climb. They've got the dive. Your "Spit mentality"urges you to follow every 109 you meet down to the deck, and duke it out.... but as soon as you are down low, enemy reinforcements will arrive.
Remember, your Spitfires don't have the Hispano cannons yet. You can't get quick kills as you'd desire. If a 109 escapes down low, and you are engaged in a dead-lock combat, the chances are it may take a very long time to land enough shots to finally shoot him down. It is at that moment the higher 109s will come down and strike at you.
Resist the urge. Keep a close eye on radar readings, and prepare yourselves for the next wave, instead of get killed over a single kill every wave. Fly the Spitfires like a 109 - being able to turn better, doesn't mean you have to show that off every time you meet an enemy.
Alt is your friend, target fixation is your enemy.
3. Firing discipline
It seems to me generally the RAF pilots are lacking in firing discipline. In the MA I'm used to flying the 109s with 30mm cannons, so flying upto 100yards distance, and maneuvering/shooting at that distance comes quite natural to me. I don't have a spectacular hit rate, but it works.
But in AvA, I've seen quite a few RAF pilots who just simply fire from way too long a distance. The BoB we are flying in, have perfectly matched planes in everyway, and usually the combat ranges are very small compared to the latter day planes. Shooting and killing is achieved at 200 yards or less. The further the range grows, the less effective your gunnery - and having 30cal guns wing mounted certainly doesn't help.
Set the convergence to 250 yards. Resist the MA-Spit urge. Keep on maneuvering, and when you see that one chance, close range, enemy plane right up at your nose, then you pull the trigger - a powerful, long burst at a distance where your enemy cannot maneuver away.
Anything other than that, will merely cause but a pilot wound, or a punctured radiator on the 109s and 110s... all of which will draw you into a long chase, where you will be ambushed and hunted down.
Maneuver, land your shots, if the enemy doesn't go down as you planned, and is going into an escaping dive, don't follow him.
4. 110s aren't easy
Despite the historical outcome, 110s are not easy planes. The reason the 110s were having bad times in the historical BoB was that they were confined to close-escort duties and deprived of much needed freedom of combat. However, our AvA 110s do not have such restrictions. When a skillful pilot uses the 110s with enough altitude and speed advantage, they are the terrors of the skies, working in close cohesion with the E-4s,
often employed to the task of finishing up a plane which the E-4 set up nicely.
Do not take them as easy kills. Do not go Head-On with them. In many cases the 110s could actually be more dangerous than the E-4s flying around, since quite often a very skilled pilot may be flying it.
5. Fighting the E-4s
The 109E-4 and the SpitI is an almost perfect match. The 109 climbs better, dives better, and has greater firepower. The SpitI is faster, and maneuvers better.
A typical move the 109 pilots will use, when being chased by a Spitfire, is the 0G dive. They push the controls to put the plane into a dive at 0 gravity, a state which a Spitfire or a Hurricane cannot follow due to its carburetor problems. If there is plenty of altitude below both of you, then the Spitfire or the Hurricane may utilize a slight roll to bank the plane, so that you can push positive Gs to go into a dive, instead of negative Gs.
The negative G problem, in some cases, could actually be used as an advantaged when can be controlled wisely. After all, it can be used as an instant air-brake to cause an overshoot.
However, one thing to avoid is being too harsh in controls, and going into bad reversals or stalls - at which state the plane will be put under prolonged state of negative Gs, which will bleed your speed too much.
Overall, contrary to what usually happens in the MA, in the Battle of Britain timeline, here in AvA, it is the Spitfires and Hurricanes that need even more teamwork than the 109s or 110s. The largest problem need to be overcome is the lack of firepower causing a prolonged chase. If your shots alone cannot do it, you always have your friends nearby who can put some more bullets in it.
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Other than the info on the 110 I think you are spot on! The 110 is NOT an easy kill, as you have mentioned, but I don't think that's because of the restrictions placed on it by the LW. Rather I think this is because the plane is over-modeled in AH, but regardless, it's a tough cookie to crack!!
If you get a top-down shot into the glass greenhouse you can cause instant pilot kills or pilot wounds, which will help you.
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that's a very nice in-depth analysis!:cool:
(im not subscibed to premium arenas yet and i can't wait to aid the RAF:D)
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How's it overmodelled when our Spitfire out everything's it except firepower and dive?
A prime example of the lack of discipline happened just today. A Luftwaffe mission of Ju88s were inbound. Frankly, it was well executed - the bombers went in forward, and just as our interceptors were arriving, the 109 escorts arrived higher and jumped us all.
The way they were flying, we also should have prepared an 'escort team' of Spitfires, and 'interceptor team' of Hurricanes. However the result was all of as arrivied one by one to the bombers, and got shot down one by one. Not a single formation decimated, only one or two bomber losses.
Those who had enough alt on the buffs and escorts, still chose to plain dogfight the escorts. On the contrary, the 109 escorts were disciplined, chasing down our RAF fighters only when necessary.
Basically, it was a hands-down defeat. Plain and simple, no excuses. Stopping large formations of Ju88As is possible - people have done it before. We can't complain just complain all day about the guns being crap.
It doesn't have to be necessarily a military level joint operation.
All people need, is just a basic mindset to work with each other, instead of work against one another, even in a same team, as one might do in MA.
If things like this keep on happening, the only time Allied side will ever shine, is when they got the best and fastest planes around.
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...our Spitfire out everything's it except firepower and dive?
Our new SPIT 1 is based on BoB specs, they used 100 octane fuel instead of 87 octane used in pre-war years. End result ---> SPIT 1 is faster than 109 at sea level and all the way up to 10,000 feet.
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Well, if yesterday was the LW professionalism day - RAF whooped the **** out of ya today. As far as the LW34 vs RAF missions were concerned.
RAF organized Spit escorts to take fighters only while the Hurri's rolled in on the 88s.
Big difference a day makes. And there were 40 + JU88 flights within a cloud of 109's and 110s.
Reference todays unedited screen caps:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169319
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Interesting note on SpitIs and HurriIs:
1) as you all know, the carburetor deprives fuel supply to engine at -Gs.
2) usually, when +G is attained the engine restarts.
3) HOWEVER, when the Spitfire/Hurri enters -G under certain conditions, the engine will totally quit
4) one point I've found out, is when a Spit1/Hurri1 goes into a very long vertical.. and then stalls out at the top. There is a momentary -G on the top of the vertical, when the Spit/Hurri 'floats' for a second, tilting on its backside - at this moment, the engine will quit. Totally quit.
5) If the plane remains inverted on its backside too long for this state, it enters an inverted free-fall - impossible to start engine. No escape except bailing out.
6) Therefore, when going into a very long, low-speed vertical, the Hurri1/Spit1 must try to flip over ASAP.
7) I think one may exploit this move in the 109s, by luring RAF fighters into a long vertical inclined towards the backside of the plane. If the Spit1/Hurri1 follows it in that state, at some point, the engine will quit.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Interesting note on SpitIs and HurriIs:
7) I think one may exploit this move in the 109s, by luring RAF fighters into a long vertical inclined towards the backside of the plane. If the Spit1/Hurri1 follows it in that state, at some point, the engine will quit.
This is a very good point - in the MA with the heavily armed late war fighters catching someone hanging in the vertical is normally a guaranteed kill. But in the SpitI/HurrI it's generally a bad position as you often can't kill even with a good sustained burst, it hangs YOU up as a target for the 109s wingman who can kill you easily in that situation, and can result in the slide kweassa describes as well as an unrecoverable inverted spin with a dead engine.
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More interesting things
1.
Luftwaffe and RAF don't have Goons to capture bases. So RAF take a
defensiv and Luftwaffe are in offensiv play but don't get timid to Luftwaffe
horde. They only want to play with RAF, they cannot capture anything.
2. Luftwaffe have the only Buff (to that time, hope the He111 get modeled)
and the Ju88 is very hard to kill with cottonballguns RAF have.
3. 110s are the really killers. They turn very good in hand of a skilled pilot
and habe no ammoproblems as the 109 have and fly much longer over the
english coast.
4. Don't get influenced what you hear about BOB. 109s and 110s don't
do the same as in BOB. They are not slow and low to protect buffs and get
easy shot down. The zooming and fly why faster than RAF.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
How's it overmodelled when our Spitfire out everything's it except firepower and dive?
Negative. 110 vs spit:
range: 110
manuverability (close in the flat turns but spit has advantage, but the 110 can loop much better than the spit) TIE
weaponry and ammo: 110
speed: 110
dive/climb: 110
views 360 degrees: 110 (LOVELY over-the-nose view when you move head up and forward).
So you basically have a plane that can fly faster than a spit1, climb better, turn almost as well, loop a lot better, has better flaps, has better guns (and nose mounted, as well!) and cannons (also nose mounted) and it's at least 15mph faster at all alts than the spit1 is, you get a show stopper's performance.
Without WEP a 110 can outrun a spit1 that is using wep. Not by much but it will pull ahead.
But in general performance and roll/turn/loop it's way over modeled. There's no way this plane would have been "slaughtered by the spitfires" as the historical counterpart was. Hell in a furball situation it kicks arse. In a squad vs squad situation it would be a juggernaught!
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range: 110
manuverability (close in the flat turns but spit has advantage, but the 110 can loop much better than the spit) TIE
weaponry and ammo: 110
speed: 110
dive/climb: 110
views 360 degrees: 110 (LOVELY over-the-nose view when you move head up and forward).
Wrong, Krusty.
*Speed
The Bf110C-4b is faster than the SpitI by about 6~7mph at deck. This advantage lasts only upto 5k, with the speed difference decreasing linearly until 5k where both planes are the same. Above 5k the speed difference rapidly shifts towards the advantage of the Spitfire, which reaches top speed of 365mph around 18k, whereas the Bf110C-4 is around 340mph at that altitudue.
Only after 23k is past, the 110 is starting to reach its FTH, and it starts outrunning SpitIs.. but even when the difference is maximal, the Bf110C-4 is only 6mph or so faster than the SpitI above 23k.
6mph at deck is about the difference between the Fw190D and the La-7. Unless beginning from a co-e status, the La-7 cannot catch a Fw190D if it has but the slightest advantage in E.
* Climb
No contest. Hands down SpitI upto 13k. 250fpm higher climb rate initially. upto 300fpm maximum at 8k.
However, once 13k is reached the 110 gains a rapid climb advantage, as the inadequate high-alt performance of the Spitfires becomes a problem. The difference tops out at 20k or so, where the 110 has a 600fpm climb advantage over the Spitfire. But once over 20k, the difference closes down again as 110s rapidly lose climb, and at 28k the Spitfire outclimbs it again.
If we limit realistic engagement alts from between 0 to 25k, the lower half is dominated by the Spitfire, and the upper half is dominated by the 110.
* Maneuverability
The SpitfireI outturns the 110 with a 50m smaller radius. 50m shorter radius is about the equivalent of the difference between a Spit5 and a La-7 in turning... not to mention that the Spitfire also has the advantage of smooter handling, while the 110 is plagued with a potentially dangerous accelerated stall. Claiming the 110 loops better than the Spitfire is absurd.
One aspect that limits the Spitfire is its carburetors, which makes it sensitive to -G conditions - and with sudden jinks or -G maneuvers the 110 has a certain possibility to outmaneuver a Spitfire, by entering that envelope and sucking up the 30cals until he forces an overshoot. But it is extremely unlikely it will work unless the 110 is a far better pilot than the Spit.
* Dive/Firepower
The two aspects the 110 has an absolute advantage over, is in the dives and firepower. The -G problem limits the Spitfire from entering a quick dive and accleration, and a rolling entry into a dive is required. The 110 also has a concentrated load of cannons, which allows it to finish a fight as quick as possible, while Spitfires require a steady amount of dogfighting to finally bring the enemy down.
So you basically have a plane that can fly faster than a spit1, climb better, turn almost as well, loop a lot better, has better flaps, has better guns (and nose mounted, as well!) and cannons (also nose mounted) and it's at least 15mph faster at all alts than the spit1 is, you get a show stopper's performance.
So what we basically have, is a plane that flies much slower than the Spit at most alt ranges, climbs better only at 13k+, no match in either turning or looping, but has better guns and dives - basically, about what we would expect from a BoB 110.
Plus, one misinformed critic of the plane, too.
How many of those you've claimed did you actually test out?
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last speeds I had recorded for AH (before spit1 got a 100 octane) put spit1 at 290 and 110c at 300 on the deck with WEP. Just checked them [the recorded numbers I have]. It feels a lot faster, probably due to acceleration (no recorded test on that, tho').
And as for loops: It's not absurd. You can say plane X loops better than plane Y. It is a definite benefit, and has to do with the horsepower to weight or some such. Consider the P38. EVERYBODY acknowledges it can loop well, and this isn't because of the conter-rotating props, it's because its' got two massively powerful engines and a light weight frame. I don't know all the calculations that go into proving it but consider that a p38 can out loop and out zoom a spit5 easily, despite being heavier and a larger target.
Same goes for the 110. It's a move that the spit1 just can't follow as well and it gives the 110 the advantage of simply pulling a loop and reacquiring the target. That's why I listed it.
Climb rate is close but I thought the 110 had the advantage? Will have to test that offline.
Turn is close enough that it means nothing. Couple that with the nose high "low G" problem with spit1 engines cutting out and the 110 becomes much more manuverable in the vertical. My logic is: If they are close in turning but the 110 is far superior in the vertical, 110 is "more manuverable" (more might not be much, but when I fly it I feel noticably more nimble, maybe it's just a mis perception).
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The year is still early in the war in the AvA. The Battle of Britain is raging.. and the planes are perfectly matched up. However, I seem to notice a small tendency that usually at equal numbers, the RAF are a bit hard-pressed.
I agree with a lot of what you say. There are good pilots flying LW. The aircraft mathups are good. I think the biggest problem for most the guys flying Allied is firepower. I've been flying with my conv set to 200 , and not firing to within 200 or less. The biggest problem for me is you have to spend too much time shooting for the kill. Even at 200 or less you have to spend way too much time glued to one guy to kill him. The longer your shooting at one and the more hits it requires to kill him..... The more vunerable you are to getting jacked by his wingman. Who's cannon will kill deal your plane a mortal wound in one good hit.
Here are the stats as of 8:30 PM EST Sunday.
Spit1 Vs Bf-109E4 Spit has 274 kills of the 109. The 109 has 528 Spit kills
Spit1 vs Gf110 Spit 156 kills of 110. The 110 has 307 Spit kills.
Hurri I vs 109E Hurri 167 kills on 109s. 109s 280 kills of the Hurri
Hurri I vs 110 Hurri 101 kills on 110s. 110s 155 kills of the Hurri.
The LW guys are good, but their not that good. Plus there are a lot of good sticks flying Allied. Many of them just as good as the guys flying LW. What you say about tactics is right on. Especially in light of the firepower situation. Just gotta hang in there until the King gets us some damn cannons.:D
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Luftwaffe pie-lets are certainly more verbose on the BBS.
:aok
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Hey Kweasea
I know you (and I) usually fly the 109 in the MA (K4 for me), so after reading this thread, I'm going to sign up for some duty in the spits and hurris etc in BoB AvA:aok
If nothing else then flying the RAF planes will gain me some first hand knowledge of strengths/ weaknesess that I can exploit in the MA.
Bring on the mass raids by 88's I say !:aok
I hereby declare myself operational and ready for duty to knock out those pesky 109's et al:aok
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Originally posted by Shifty
I agree with a lot of what you say. There are good pilots flying LW. The aircraft mathups are good. I think the biggest problem for most the guys flying Allied is firepower. I've been flying with my conv set to 200 , and not firing to within 200 or less. The biggest problem for me is you have to spend too much time shooting for the kill. Even at 200 or less you have to spend way too much time glued to one guy to kill him. The longer your shooting at one and the more hits it requires to kill him..... The more vunerable you are to getting jacked by his wingman. Who's cannon will kill deal your plane a mortal wound in one good hit.
Here are the stats as of 8:30 PM EST Sunday.
Spit1 Vs Bf-109E4 Spit has 274 kills of the 109. The 109 has 528 Spit kills
Spit1 vs Gf110 Spit 156 kills of 110. The 110 has 307 Spit kills.
Hurri I vs 109E Hurri 167 kills on 109s. 109s 280 kills of the Hurri
Hurri I vs 110 Hurri 101 kills on 110s. 110s 155 kills of the Hurri.
The LW guys are good, but their not that good. Plus there are a lot of good sticks flying Allied. Many of them just as good as the guys flying LW. What you say about tactics is right on. Especially in light of the firepower situation. Just gotta hang in there until the King gets us some damn cannons.:D
Right, lets get up to alt and everyone flying has a wingman, or we stay in flights of fours and we attack as fours. In other words, four aircraft line astern each taking a pass at the 88, four passes will knock em down quick enough.
While we are doing that, our buddies will be keeping the 109's of our backs.
I think the whole key to this is staying in formation, attack as 1 and then leave, Nobody goes up alone and nobody gets left behind.
What you guys think ?
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My first love will always be the 109. That said, I still enjoy the Spit I and Hurri I, mainly because they are so underrated by folks who arent used to the -G engine cutouts. So I spend more than my fair share of time in both of these planes, even in the MA. Krusty, I have to side with Kweassa on this one. The Spit I (considering the pilots being equal in skill and equally comfortable in their plane of choice) will handily deal with the 110 1v1. As for vertical performance, one thing that might foster this illusion you have is that a 110 pilot very seldom lets himself get too slow, whereas the average Spit pilot is used to being slow. Speed at the start makes all the difference in vertical maneuvers. Also, once you have flown the Spit I and/or Hurri I for awhile, I can guarantee you will almost never cut out the engine, unless you intend to. It's very easy to perform vertical manevuers, even at slow speeds, and rolls, and anything else you want to do by learning to use the rudders to compensate for your limited stick travel to keep you out of -G land. Any maneuver that normally requires being inverted at low G, or uses negative Gs can be just as easily accomplished while maintaining positive G force throught the maneuver. Aileron roll a Spit I and it will cut out. Barrel roll it and it wont.
Sure its not as nimble as its later brothers, but the Spit I is a very capable plane in the right hands. Flown with teamwork like I've seen lately, especially paired with a Hurricane, its more than capable. Its deadly.
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So in summary: the 110 is not overmodelled at all and the 2:1 kill ratio it has over either the Spit I or Hurricane I is because us RAF pilots are stupid and incompetent.
OK. Thanks for that analysis.
So since the 110 was actually so uber, history is wrong and it should not be removed in the next setup. Maybe you should remove the 109 instead.
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Originally posted by 715
So in summary: the 110 is not overmodelled at all and the 2:1 kill ratio it has over either the Spit I or Hurricane I is because us RAF pilots are stupid and incompetent.
OK. Thanks for that analysis.
So since the 110 was actually so uber, history is wrong and it should not be removed in the next setup. Maybe you should remove the 109 instead.
I think you rather misinterpreted what was being said. The 110 is enjoying a good kill/death ration for several reasons, only a few of which have anything to do with pilot skill.
1. The 110 is partly so "uber" because its guns are nose mounted and it has cannons. The 109E has wing mount cannons that are much more sensitive to convergence issues. If the 110 pilot gets a snapshot opportunity, its likely to be lethal.
2. Many of the people flying 110s in the arena regularly fly them, and are quite used to how they handle, thus can get the most out of them. This isnt excatly a new setup for CT (AvA) regulars.
3. As Kweassa stated, many times new people coming into the arena gravitate toward the RAF and the Spitfire. All dweebfire jokes aside, the spitfire is just plain easier to fly for the newer player than the 109. This is what Kweassa was trying to point out. Its not that the skill of the individual pilots is any less measured 1 on 1. Its simply that the people who are flying full time in the 109s fly them ALL THE TIME. Whereas those in the spits might fly the Spit I in an occasional Special Event or because they lost a bet. Same goes for the 110 in this argument.
4. Many people who have never flown this type of matchup before come in with certain expectations regarding the performance of the 110, due to historical evidence and anecdotes. What people often fail to take into consideration is the fact that the 110 was mostly used as bomber escort, and was stuck in a narrow area, alt, and performance band to do their jobs when enemy fighters began their sweeps. Later in the BoB, the 109s would become hampered by the same rules, and their effectiveness would be cut as well. The point of this digression is to say that the average person comes into this setup expecting certain things in the way of performance from the Bf 110, and they are usually given a very nasty surprise the first time they fight one because they underrate it. Pilots here are under no constraint to fly their planes in a historical manner.
If you cant understand this, and/or still want to take this personally, I suggest you grow a thicker skin. No one was insulting you or anyone else. If thats your idea of insulting, I'm afraid you've lived a very sheltered life.
Best of luck to you next outing.
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"one thing that might foster this illusion you have is that a 110 pilot very seldom lets himself get too slow, whereas the average Spit pilot is used to being slow."
Good point. Hadn't thought of that!
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Having flown mostly RAF and mostly the Spit I so far, I have to agree with Star and Kweassa. 1v1 the Spit and Hurri can easily defeat the 110 in a dogfight. I'm currently carrying a 17:5 k/d against them. The times that they've killed me have been when I've gotten target fixated and let one catch me level, or when I've been hugely outnumbered and they BnZed me to death.
Historically the 110 wasn't nearly as bad as it's made out. They had a lot of sucess in 1939/1940 leading up to the BoB. During the actual battle itself they continued to score well enough, but the losses they took in turn were disastrous. For instance on August 13th 1940, the Zerstorer gruppen claimed 30 RAF fighters vs. 13 losses. The highest scoring Zerstorer ace was up to 19 kills by the end of the battle. Obviously there was some overclaiming, but they were at least scoring kills - these weren't the german version of the Bolton-Paul Defiant or something like that. The problem was that the Zerstorer gruppen started the battle with about 240 serviceable aircraft, and had suffered nearly that many losses by Oct/Nov! This at a time when the Luftwaffe was making no attempt to increase aircraft production or crew training. The reason for the high losses was that the 110 couldn't outturn either British fighter except in exceptionally beneficial circumstances, and the majority of 110s in service during the BoB used the same DB601A engine as the 109, not the DB601N version we have in AH. This meant that it's performance was a little lower at all altitudes, and then fell off dramatically at about 15,000ft. Given that a great deal of the BoB dogfights were taking place at higher altitudes where the British Merlins were still producing good power, it would have been hard pressed to either catch or escape from the RAF fighters - especially the Spitfire. Thus the reason why the 110s were forced to enter a defensive lufberry on many occasions.
I recently found this rather interesting quote from Capt Maurice R McLary of the 20th FG. He was flying P-38Js with the 8th AF over europe in 1944.
"On the encounters I've had with the enemy's twin-engined aircraft, I have found that thy can turn much shorter than I had anticpated. I've also had trouble in staying behind them - the tendency being to over-run them. They usually try to out-turn you and in so doing, put their tail gunner in a good position. I learned this the hard way - by having an engine shot out by an Me 110 tail gunner."
Maybe this shouldn't be too surprising when you consider that the 110G's wingloading is about 43 lbs/sq ft - competetive with the single engine fighters (and P-38) of 1944. It just happened to also be much slower, and have a much worse rate of climb and roll then the competition.
The 110C on the other hand had a 36 lbs/sq ft wing loading - slightly more then the 109E and a lot more then the Spit I and Hurri I which explains why it is outturned so much more by it's contemporaries.
Both of these results match up well with Kweassa's turn tests - kinda makes me think HTC got this one right.
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So in summary: the 110 is not overmodelled at all and the 2:1 kill ratio it has over either the Spit I or Hurricane I is because us RAF pilots are stupid and incompetent.
If you put it that way, yes indeed - most of the Allied pilots I've seen are definately flying stupid and incompetent.
I'm an Axis guy, but I try to help even out the situation everybit as possible. That being said, for the past few days I've been playing as the RAF - which would mean that everytime I log on, I was inlcined to move to the RAF to help out. People were just getting slaughtered over there.
The depressing thing is, even the some of the better pilots were so often succumbing to the urge to chase down every plane they see. A lone 110 tangling with 2~3 Spitfires down low, and you'd definately see someone jumping into the fray. The problem is, the RAF, at least while we are limited to 30calibre weapons, do not have such luxury against the Luftwaffe. The Channel is very narrow - only about 5 minutes flight from Abbeville area. Enemy reinforcements come in by the minute. The fact that their planes having superior climb(109) and dives(109/110) is pretty deadly by itself, but letting them come overhead unmatched is even worse.
A logical solution is to take the entire fight as a group, and not necessarily an individual. When 2~3 109s or 110s are tangling with 5~6 Spitfires and Hurricanes, they don't need the help. Sooner or later, they are gonna be able to shoot it down, or at least press it into a very hard situation, making them run towards home. What they need, is friendlies coming in to fight enemy reinforcements. Newly arrived planes at the scene, should be looking ahead and engaging enemy reinforcements arriving - not looking down and diving at the first opportunity they see and go dogfighting like mad - which usually ends up in a massacre of Spits and Hurricanes to high enemy 109s and 110s.
However, everytime I up a plane, the guys who were with me at alt suddenly vanish. I search for them, and see that they are running in circles against a few 109s and 110s 100ft above water. It's usually that moment where new wave of 109s and 110s arrive. Now I'm torn - do I stay above and try to fight them all by myself? Or do I go head first into a certain-death where all the low Spit/Hurri buddies are now crying for help?
If I hope for the best, and jump down to help friendlies, I'll end up right next to their grave, hammered and riddled by cannons from massive number of 109s and 110s coming in above us unchallenged.
If I try to stay high and fight them alone, all my friendlies low are shot down. Soon, even the low 109s and 110s come crawling up, and my odds are like 7 to 1. I usually end up in the foremost place of the big, red conga line. Screaming towards home, hoping my WEP won't cut off before I reach English shores.
So yeah, I'd definately say the RAF is usually flying incompetent and stupid. It's not necessarily the Luftwafe is superior in overall quality. They got a lot of good pilots, but the rest of the pilots are just as average as our own. However, the difference is that the LW guys know their 110s and 109s cannot turn with Hurris or Spits, and that usually forces them to keep a certain amount of discipline when engaging. However, being in such wonderful maneuvering planes, our poor RAF lads just love to go into the death spiral, and end up getting hounded by dozens of 109s on ther tail. The 109s force them to turn, the 110 comes in screaming and finishes them off.
OK. Thanks for that analysis.
So since the 110 was actually so uber, history is wrong and it should not be removed in the next setup. Maybe you should remove the 109 instead.
More like the RAF are dunce, rather than 110 being uber.
It's basically really simple.
You go and fight certain way, and get shot down. Do you:
1) go in there, fight the same way, and get shot down again?
2) or go in there, try fight differently, and survive long enough to land kills?
....and the RAF, are currently choosing 1), for some reason.
Death wish? I wouldn't know. I'm not originally an Allied guy. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the way they are flying gets them killed... and yet they do it all over again, and again, and again, and again.
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Allies fly that way because they know nothing else than main arena crap
playing. But what could i do, only one playing none "kamikaze-first-come-
best-way-to-kill-many-people-and-nothing-happen-if-i-get-shot-down"
playing style.
I will tell you.
Most i am alone at alt facing 3 luftguys while my mates chasing a 109 diving to the deck home.
Why all those Spits and Hurris fly at the french coast ? Only to die when the
109s and 110 refuled come back and Waaaaaaaaaaagh again vs the Britcoast.
Stupid :furious
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for the most part the allied players hang over the ack by the ports. occassionally there were some great fights in mid channel. I suppose it is what loddar said these guys only know MA horde mentality play. give them time and hopefully they will play better in this arena. it's funny to see 9 hurris/spits dive on a 110 engaged with two other spits it's even funnier when the 110 manages to shoot down 3 or 4 and still escape to land. I saw N7 land 8 kills in a 109E-4 after one of those nasty furballs over the allied port. I forgot to ask him but I'm sure it was at least 1 re-armed flight.
I know no one likes to told how to play but perhaps some friendly encouragement from interested participants will work towards curbing some of the dweebry. If not this will soon be a mini MA and people will just leave, especially when we have endless hordes of spittards in the spitv and beyond.
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Yep,
This is the hardest flying I have to do in quite some time. The old way of just diving in, guns a-blazing just does not work. Flying the Spit or Hurri, you have to work for every shot, (Notice I said shot, not kill).
I have had 2 one on one shootouts this weekend. One with a JU87 and the other with a 110. The first one was with the 87, I had the alt, he was bombing strat targets. I said to my self, "Self this is going to be simple
.". Then I nosed over and the engine cutout. Rats, pull up, roll over, nose down zoom in on his 6. 500 out, guns, sprite,sprite,sprite nothing. Rats 303's pul up go over he is on my 6, rats, push over, engine cuts out, bullits flying past my plane, rats, roll over, go down pickup speed and extend. Yep I'm extending from a stuka. I look behind me and I see him in his aircraft laughing at me.:lol
Fine, get alt, turn around 200k, got him.:aok
Want to land 2 kills so I can see my name in lights! Not anymore, I'm just trying to stay alive to fight another day.
I heard that the Americans will soon be sending some new equipment under something called Lend Lease. How about some of those tommy guns, you know, heaters, choppers. Something I can shoot a Gerry when I'm running from the JU87.:cry
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Phaser11 you really see a Ju87 ? :O
Shocking ! When i was only at Friday and Saturday i only saw hordes of 110s
and 109s and never catchable Ju88s. That isn't very nice. But, a luftguy told me,
that's AvA furball arena.
I am looking forward to the SpitV and HurriC and later on buffs. Payback time.
Hiding in the ack ? What do allies can do ? I told i am often alone with 3 luftguys
should i fight with cottonballs guns vs 20mm ? Am i mad ?
:lol
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Originally posted by storch
f I saw N7 land 8 kills in a 109E-4 after one of those nasty furballs over the allied port. I forgot to ask him but I'm sure it was at least 1 re-armed flight..
If anybody is going to land an 8 kill Bf-109E sortie I'd put my money on N7, or Eagler. I've run across Eagler twice this setup, and died twice. I've been lucky enough to be in another part of the sky when N7 is up. Wildesau seems to be the Green Heart with my number this setup.
The thing about N7 is he shoots as good as he flies. He doesn't make mistakes, and he doesn't miss. I can also see him getting kills when down to just the MG-17s. I flew LW a little Sturday , and got a kill on a Hurri from D200 with MG-17s only. If I can do it once I figure N7 can probably do it 4 or 5 times.
I tagged along with the 4th FG last night and got into a good fight with JG54 off the coast. I managed to get a 109, and a 110, then found myself in the middle of a Bf-109, Bf-110, blizzard. Just when I was thinking I might actually get out of this thing....................... Bang , blood everywhere then the old Wildesau shot you down messege.:eek:
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The 110 has some weak points too.. If you're not carefull when turning at a low speeds you can find yourself in stall were your plane slowly falls and can not move... Only way to recover is to turn off your engines and try to point the nose downwards. If this happens at low alt, you're finished...
:cry
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Originally posted by Loddar
Phaser11 you really see a Ju87 ? :O
I've encountered Ju-87s a couple of times. Plus numerous JU88s. The LW guys have been doing a good job of actually attacking the UK.
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Yep,
and it SHOULD BE HARD to win.
It was in the real war,
"Never have so few, given so much, for so many" or something like that.
The tieds of war are changing. We must hold out and stop the Gerrys from controling the sky's. Let the aces be aces, and the heros be us! :mad:
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The Bf110 is over modeled. There is no doubt of that. Luft fans make excuses, but that is the hard truth.
The Hurri is also overmodeled, but not as badly.
If the real planes flew like these it would have been the Bf109s and Spitfires that ended up being seen as second rate and dead ends. The respective forces would have ended up in Hurricane Mk XIVs and Bf110K-4s.
And no, Bf110s doing free range air-to-air combat still met with very heavy losses against either Hurricanes or Spitfires. The whole "Tied to the bombers caused them to have that record." is a bunch of BS that doesn't hold up to the record.
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Agree with Karnak :aok
Or have you ever see a fightercircle here in AH when 110s protect each
other against attacking Hurris and Spits ?
No, here in AH are the Hurris and Spits in a circle of death to protect
each other against the 110s around them. :(
AH is a COMBAT GAME, nothing more :cry
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I've seen only a couple of 3-4 kill 109E sorties (got myself a 3 kill sortie as well) but only on the 110cs have I seen regular 5-6-7 kill sorties. I've landed 2-3 "5 killers" myself, and I'm not that great.
We have been trying to give yall some bomber action. I organized a few Ju88 raids a couple nights ago. A Ju87 raid was interceptd on climb out, but would have been fun to reach the target (only 1 plane did, I think).
To help out, and because I don't fly the RAF planes enough, I'm going to switch to Spit1/Hurr1 next time I join and see where I can help!
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"The whole "Tied to the bombers caused them to have that record." is a bunch of BS that doesn't hold up to the record."
And your claim is based on what?
Surely you have flown 110 against Spits and Hurris in AvA?
I have got my kills in 110 exactly as Kweassa described it. 109s get them slow and 110s boom through the furball and cherry pick them off.
Hurris and Spits need to stick considerably long time in enemy's tail to gain a kill, and for either cannon armed ME one second is usually enough to get a kill.
The change in tactics will be very evident when Hurri2 and Spit5 come into game. The 109s will not be able to stick with Brit fighters because that same one second will be lethal for them too.
-C+
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the bf110 in AH is wildly overmodelled but it pales compared to all things allied including the GVs and if you bail from an allied plane then your chute and pistol are overmodelled as well. the only thing not overmodelled are the allied players they pretty much suck.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
It's not necessarily the Luftwafe is superior in overall quality. They got a lot of good pilots, but the rest of the pilots are just as average as our own. However, the difference is that the LW guys know their 110s and 109s cannot turn with Hurris or Spits, and that usually forces them to keep a certain amount of discipline when engaging. However, being in such wonderful maneuvering planes, our poor RAF lads just love to go into the death spiral, and end up getting hounded by dozens of 109s on ther tail. The 109s force them to turn, the 110 comes in screaming and finishes them off.
This is one of those examples - kind of like our Wildcats v. A6M2s setups - when this arena reflects history. I've always thought it was pretty neat how that happens.
- oldman
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Originally posted by storch
the bf110 in AH is wildly overmodelled but it pales compared to all things allied including the GVs and if you bail from an allied plane then your chute and pistol are overmodelled as well. the only thing not overmodelled are the allied players they pretty much suck.
Storch take your meds.:p Where did all that come from?:eek:
By the way........... Wheres TK been lately, haven't seen him in like a month?
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if you bail from an allied plane then your chute and pistol are overmodelled as well
:rofl
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About the 110C being over-modeled...
So people are saying 110C is over modeled because it uses DB 601N instead of DB 601A? Isnt DB 601N a post Battle of Britain engine used on 109F-2s?
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Originally posted by storch
the bf110 in AH is wildly overmodelled but it pales compared to all things allied including the GVs and if you bail from an allied plane then your chute and pistol are overmodelled as well. the only thing not overmodelled are the allied players they pretty much suck.
ok, Who had Jan 23 before 5 pm?
The M3 is overmodelled though.
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Don't think the 110 is over modeled. It's just hard to bring down right now.
The Luftwaffe kicked arse in the early days. Just like their doing now. Yeah they had problems during BOB brought on by distance and forced tactics. Those limits don't apply in the game. So what your seeing right now is pretty much an example of what happened to the Polish , Dutch, Belgian, French, and British Air Forces on the European continant.
Fight through it better days are ahead.:aok
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clearly, humor is lost on some folks. oh well.
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You complain that Spits end up on the deck turning in circles and are easy prey for incoming higher alt LW. That is true, but it isn't because they are stupid. It's because the Spit cannot get a kill until the fight has devolved to near stall speed and that does not happen until the Spit has followed his intended target all the way to zero alt. It is because HTC has chosen to model the stiffness of the Spit I controls at moderate speeds as meaning "virtually unmanouverable". If you dive on a 110 or 109 at alt he just does a flick reversal and your Spit is ballistic and cannot get a single shot. And with 0.303s there is no such thing as a snap shot. Only on the deck at stall speed can you finally load the required 200 rounds of 0.303 into your target. By then you are toast from other 110s or 109s. Fights using Spit Is take an enormous amount of time, and your target, especially 110s, can pretty much extend at will, even from a stall fight. As soon as they are beyond 300 to 400 yds the few 0.303s that do land will do no damage.
Your argument that the LW side just has better players doesn't entirely hold water because the AvA arena group are quite conscientious at switching sides to even things up, so it turns out the same people end up playing both sides. Yet the LW has over a 2:1 kill ratio, even when flying 110s.
But I am guilty of whining about something that will not change, which is one of the definitions of clinical insanity, so I'll stop. Sorry.
715
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Originally posted by 1K3
About the 110C being over-modeled...
So people are saying 110C is over modeled because it uses DB 601N instead of DB 601A? Isnt DB 601N a post Battle of Britain engine used on 109F-2s?
the 110C4 did indeed have the "N" engine and was built in very small numbers and it was a good performer but not as good as it does in AH. It would still be relatively easy meat for any single engine fighter in a 1 v 1. it's way overmodelled but not as much as any allied plane is.
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Originally posted by 715
Your argument that the LW side just has better players doesn't entirely hold water because the AvA arena group are quite conscientious at switching sides to even things up, so it turns out the same people end up playing both sides. Yet the LW has over a 2:1 kill ratio, even when flying 110s.
How that part is always conveniently overlooked cracks me up.
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You complain that Spits end up on the deck turning in circles and are easy prey for incoming higher alt LW. That is true, but it isn't because they are stupid. It's because the Spit cannot get a kill until the fight has devolved to near stall speed and that does not happen until the Spit has followed his intended target all the way to zero alt.
That's just another way of saying "target fixation". It's a lack of basic discipline and cooperation, and nothing else.
It is because HTC has chosen to model the stiffness of the Spit I controls at moderate speeds as meaning "virtually unmanouverable". If you dive on a 110 or 109 at alt he just does a flick reversal and your Spit is ballistic and cannot get a single shot. And with 0.303s there is no such thing as a snap shot. Only on the deck at stall speed can you finally load the required 200 rounds of 0.303 into your target. By then you are toast from other 110s or 109s. Fights using Spit Is take an enormous amount of time, and your target, especially 110s, can pretty much extend at will, even from a stall fight. As soon as they are beyond 300 to 400 yds the few 0.303s that do land will do no damage.
Requiring a long time does not necessarily mean that you alone have to handle the entire time length by yourself.
If it will require 5 minutes of constant fighting to finally bring a 109 to its knees, then you could be doing the first 2 minutes, the others chasing him down can do another 2 minutes, and the finally death blow can be dealt by others for 1 minute. High alt Spitfires push down high 109s, mid alt Spitfires engage them and make them run to deck, and low alt Hurricanes and Spits finally stall them out and deal the death blow.
Ofcourse, sticking to that principle also means the guys at the high-alt and mid-alt ranges would have a lot less killing opportunites than the guys at down low. But hey, I personally feel that's better than being BnZd to death everytime I up a plane.
Your argument that the LW side just has better players doesn't entirely hold water because the AvA arena group are quite conscientious at switching sides to even things up, so it turns out the same people end up playing both sides. Yet the LW has over a 2:1 kill ratio, even when flying 110s.
We have players sitting at the ack guns shooting at Spits and Hurris at take off. How many of these guys does the LW have?
But I am guilty of whining about something that will not change, which is one of the definitions of clinical insanity, so I'll stop. Sorry.
What exactly were you whining about in the first place? That LW planes are overmodelled?
Overmodelled 110s being the cause of disadvantage obviously makes no sense, since today the 110 squadrons left for other fronts of the war, and still against only 109s, the RAF were slapped around. So what would it be this time? The 109s being overmodelled? The Spits and Hurricanes being undermodelled?
The Spits and Hurris have an absolute advantage over pitch control at all speed ranges. The 109 has a slightly better roll than the Spit at moderate and low speed ranges, and the Hurricane outrolls them both - but over 350mph the difference becomes meaningless. The great equalizer is the carburetor problem plaguing Spits and Hurris, which helps the 109 immensely in low-speed maneuvering, especially with sudden jinks.
In other words, It ain't exactly a rose garden for the 109s either. When the 109 fully utilizes his plane, at best the odds are 50:50 against a Spitfire. The cannon advantage may shift the odds to 60:40 in favor of the 109s, and therefore that much of disadvantage we Spits and Hurris have, MUST be overcome with cooperation, which we are sorely lacking.
Is there any way to fix this? Yes. I certainly think so.
That's why I took the time to start this thread. I'm not bashing the RAF for no reason. I'm criticizing the RAF because I sincerely think we can do better and prove ourselves much more deadlier foes than we are now. What we need is a different mindset than what we used to have in the MA.
Since obviously we can't get people to do military-grade squadron training to fight them in a game, IMO RAF pilots should just follow the simple set of rules as written below;
1. Divide the altitude ranges to three groups - 10k and above as High alt, 3k~10k as Mid alt, and 3k and under as Low alt.
2. After take off, and arriving at the scene, scan the area around and make a quick assessment to which alt range has least number of your planes in it. It is there you are needed - choose that altitude range as your own.
3. After choosing an altitude range, stick to it no matter what. Even if you think there's a great opportunity for a 1vs1 coming up, ignore the temptation. There's no such things as 1vs1 in BoB. Every fight will be a dizzy mess of many fighters buzzing around you. If the enemy runs below your operational alt, then let him go.
4. Cross over your altitude range only under following circumstances:
* when the enemy plane that dives to safety, tries to latch onto one of your own friendly plane at an alt range lower than yours - follow the 109 down, clear his tail, and go back up.
* when the enemy reinforcements, for some reason, is delayed, and your side obtains temporary total airsuperiority over the target.
If most everyone sticks to these simple four rules, the air superiority will be contested, without shifting to the LW for such a long time. And as long as they don't have the liberty to gang up on our fighters on a whim, sooner or later, a kill opportunity will come to you.
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At the moment the LW planes completely own the RAF because of the guns alone.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
We have players sitting at the ack guns shooting at Spits and Hurris at take off. How many of these guys does the LW have?
Probably the same number. :) That doesn't necessarily indicate stupidity. It's a fair way to practice high deflection shooting in the field ack. It doesn't hurt the friendly plane (or yourself). However, I don't do it anymore: when the manned ack tracers didn't show it was OK, but now that tracers show it can freak out the other player.
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Well some unfriendly banter is always welcome.
I have found the AvA arena quite fun the past couple set ups. Even in this arena you have a few mouth pieces that won't shut up but that aside it's been fun. Easy on calling the MA guys names, I'd rather have them there than not.
I flew both sides, Axis only for a couple sorties and I found the 303 Hurri was a decent ride. I am still confused as to the guns, I know that the LW pilots must be getting sick of the 'tick-tick-tick-tick' as they fly away from a 2 or three second burst at 200 or less. It gets real tough when you can't finish a kill and two more 109's are bearing down on you.
Why are the 8x303's so useless? I've flown the Hurri I in fightertown and gotten kills easier. I've also gone up against a group of Lancs and was shot down with very few hits. Maybe it's rubber bullets or maybe its me.
Hell, maybe storch is right. He's far superior than the rest of us and immune to 303's......or maybe he's a CHEATER! Harr! I knew it - it's all coming clear to me now. Storch is cheating:aok
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... and you will all see, those people change sides when spit 5 comes
because the advantage is one the allies side. :mad:
Don't change Luftwaffe boys. I am looking forward to the same game
doing to you as you do in the moment with us.
:lol
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I've seen people change sides all the times to balance numbers, I hope this wil continue, even when the advantage switches to the allies (and it will).
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Why are the 8x303's so useless? I've flown the Hurri I in fightertown and gotten kills easier. I've also gone up against a group of Lancs and was shot down with very few hits. Maybe it's rubber bullets or maybe its me.
There is one reason why the AP machine guns are generally less effective than HE cannons. This IMO, is the only real issue that has some relevance to the matter, and can be justified for complaint - which needs to be fixed on a game-wide scale (meaning, significant game upgrade).
To shoot a plane down in AH, you need to break off some external piece of the plane, notably the wings. However, real life planes were much more complicated than that. While the rear fuselage is mostly empty, the wings and frontal fuselage was packed with all kinds of machinery that might direcly effect the performance of the plane, the cables or rods for control surfaces being one of such examples.
This difference is very evident when watching guncam films - contrary to what we see in AH, IMO 80~90% of guncam footages that remain today are of planes being shot down due to internal problems: fuming engine, local fire, pilot bailing out from an unctrollable plane, and etc etc.. Seeing the wings come off fighters is pretty much a rare thing in guncams.
AH's DM is outdated. It was state-of-the-art six years ago, but not anymore. Compare the one contendor to AH in WW2 combat flight simulation gaming, IL-2/FB series. When playing IL-2/FB the DM is very detailed and different. Many things can happen in IL-2/FB and its expansion packs.
Planes primarily armed with AP weapons have a much higher chance in dealing various damage to internal components of the plane. The most frequent form of damage dealt with these weapons, is engine damaged and fuming, fires, aileron/elevator controls cut of jammed. Sometimes the supercharger is damaged and engine performance is reduced, the throttle gates become damaged and plane cannot adjust throttle, Other times the bullets enter cockpit and hurt the pilot, whom in IL-2/FB has varying degree of wounds.
When the pilot wound is serious the pilot cannot control his plane with maximum efficiency, and maneuvering is limited. Sometimes his vision is blurred by a haze of red, and usually, after some time he dies quickly. With lighter wounds the pilot may survive and be able to land his plane, but still the maneuvering efficiency drops off. Hardly surprising, since any type of would that is none critical, would usually involve damage to arms or legs.
Even if the pilot himself is safe, sometimes damage to the cockpit knocks out his gunsight - in which case the damaged plane is potentially neutered as a threat.
Contrary to AP armed planes, HE armed planes deal most of their damage by knocking entire surfaces out. Hits to the wing, while not enough to knock it off, have a good chance of drilling a hole large enough to cause loss of lift. The plane becomes twitchy and sensitive in the roll axis due to bad maneuvering. Hits to the rudder or ailerons may tatter it into rags, in which case the maneuvering efficiency is lost.
...
Compared to how IL-2/FB deals damage, AH is very limited, and the problematic results are as seen with the current AvA setup. 30cal armed planes obviously cannot blow out wings or fuselages like cannon planes - but a good burst of 30cals at close range, even if does not deal structural damage, should have a good chance of dealing some kind of internal damage.
Just today I saw TheBug's plane(I remember it to be a Hurri) firing at storch's 109E at what appeared to be less than 100 yards distance. He pulled his trigger down, and while hits from other person's FE does not show up in mine, the range was so close that it was possible for me to confirm Bug was landing a good deal of concentrated 30cal fire to the 109's rear fuselage and stabilizer section. However, the 109E didn't go down, nor was damaged - at least in a way I could visually confirm.
What happend was Bug's plane ended up ramming storch's 109E from behind. He probably saw the collision first on his FE. It was a 2vs2 situation, and I was fighting another 109E in a SpitI as I saw this happen. Bug collided and got the worse of it, and storch's 109E turned around to what quickly became a 2vs1, and I was shot down.
Now, that amount of 30cal firepower at such a close range, while not powerful enough to snap off a 109E tail end, still should have done something. It probably would have knocked off storch's elevator controls were it in real life... or for some miraculous reason, if his controls were not damaged, it still should have made rags out of his elevators and rudder, bad enough to have some kind of ill effect in maneuvering.
But alas, since AH does not have such internal components modelled, storch's 109E survived... and healthy enough to join the chase and shoot me down.
Now, if somebody had brought the fact that AH's lack of DM gives a bit of unfair advantage to cannon armed planes, on that I would have agreed.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
There is one reason why the AP machine guns are generally less effective than HE cannons. This IMO, is the only real issue that has some relevance to the matter, and can be justified for complaint - which needs to be fixed on a game-wide scale (meaning, significant game upgrade).
To shoot a plane down in AH, you need to break off some external piece of the plane, notably the wings. However, real life planes were much more complicated than that. While the rear fuselage is mostly empty, the wings and frontal fuselage was packed with all kinds of machinery that might direcly effect the performance of the plane, the cables or rods for control surfaces being one of such examples.
This difference is very evident when watching guncam films - contrary to what we see in AH, IMO 80~90% of guncam footages that remain today are of planes being shot down due to internal problems: fuming engine, local fire, pilot bailing out from an unctrollable plane, and etc etc.. Seeing the wings come off fighters is pretty much a rare thing in guncams.
AH's DM is outdated. It was state-of-the-art six years ago, but not anymore. Compare the one contendor to AH in WW2 combat flight simulation gaming, IL-2/FB series. When playing IL-2/FB the DM is very detailed and different. Many things can happen in IL-2/FB and its expansion packs.
Planes primarily armed with AP weapons have a much higher chance in dealing various damage to internal components of the plane. The most frequent form of damage dealt with these weapons, is engine damaged and fuming, fires, aileron/elevator controls cut of jammed. Sometimes the supercharger is damaged and engine performance is reduced, the throttle gates become damaged and plane cannot adjust throttle, Other times the bullets enter cockpit and hurt the pilot, whom in IL-2/FB has varying degree of wounds.
When the pilot wound is serious the pilot cannot control his plane with maximum efficiency, and maneuvering is limited. Sometimes his vision is blurred by a haze of red, and usually, after some time he dies quickly. With lighter wounds the pilot may survive and be able to land his plane, but still the maneuvering efficiency drops off. Hardly surprising, since any type of would that is none critical, would usually involve damage to arms or legs.
Even if the pilot himself is safe, sometimes damage to the cockpit knocks out his gunsight - in which case the damaged plane is potentially neutered as a threat.
Contrary to AP armed planes, HE armed planes deal most of their damage by knocking entire surfaces out. Hits to the wing, while not enough to knock it off, have a good chance of drilling a hole large enough to cause loss of lift. The plane becomes twitchy and sensitive in the roll axis due to bad maneuvering. Hits to the rudder or ailerons may tatter it into rags, in which case the maneuvering efficiency is lost.
...
Compared to how IL-2/FB deals damage, AH is very limited, and the problematic results are as seen with the current AvA setup. 30cal armed planes obviously cannot blow out wings or fuselages like cannon planes - but a good burst of 30cals at close range, even if does not deal structural damage, should have a good chance of dealing some kind of internal damage.
Just today I saw TheBug's plane(I remember it to be a Hurri) firing at storch's 109E at what appeared to be less than 100 yards distance. He pulled his trigger down, and while hits from other person's FE does not show up in mine, the range was so close that it was possible for me to confirm Bug was landing a good deal of concentrated 30cal fire to the 109's rear fuselage and stabilizer section. However, the 109E didn't go down, nor was damaged - at least in a way I could visually confirm.
What happend was Bug's plane ended up ramming storch's 109E from behind. He probably saw the collision first on his FE. It was a 2vs2 situation, and I was fighting another 109E in a SpitI as I saw this happen. Bug collided and got the worse of it, and storch's 109E turned around to what quickly became a 2vs1, and I was shot down.
Now, that amount of 30cal firepower at such a close range, while not powerful enough to snap off a 109E tail end, still should have done something. It probably would have knocked off storch's elevator controls were it in real life... or for some miraculous reason, if his controls were not damaged, it still should have made rags out of his elevators and rudder, bad enough to have some kind of ill effect in maneuvering.
But alas, since AH does not have such internal components modelled, storch's 109E survived... and healthy enough to join the chase and shoot me down.
Now, if somebody had brought the fact that AH's lack of DM gives a bit of unfair advantage to cannon armed planes, on that I would have agreed.
Or you could say 303's suck.;)
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You are correct in the DM assessment in AH. it could be tuned up a bit. If I were flying allied I'd fly the Hurribeast and I would concentrate my fire to the opposing players cockpit. that pretty much cancel's out the weak DM in AH. with regard to TheBug incident yes he was busy anklehumping but since he dove down into a cherry pick he was carrying lots of speed what I did was extend just a bit while keeping my plane below his nose as much as possible. he registered few hits. packet loss may have been a factor but at my end it seemed he was totally missing. when he got under distance 200 (registering D0) I dove down slightly cut the throttle all the way back, rolled inverted and pulled up when it sounded like I had forced the overshoot. he rear ended me. he drives like an old lady anyways. when I looked in the rear view all I saw was some blue hair bobbing around and 8 knuckles death gripping the wheel. he'll be hearing from allstate insurance this morning and possible the homeland security people as well since he's a illegal insect. he will most likely be deported to the amazon rain forest where he belongs. just as well, he's probably carrying the avian flu.
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Or you could say 303's suck.
It's not the 30cals that suck.
It's the DM that sucks, and those two are very different things. Implying the guns sucks, is misleading, and amounts to nothing but pointless overmodelled/undermodelled debates.
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I've never said anything is over modeled or under modeled. The fact is it's hard to get kills with 303's IN THIS SIM. All the long winded explainations on DM's, and pointing out how inferior the tactics, and flying abilities of the Allies is a crock. The simple fact is the 303's are weak. So why all the hot air? It's a fact. Gentlemen start your merlins and deal with it. If it gets frustrating log off go do something else for a while, log back on and try again.
The LW guys have a firepower advantage right now. The great thing about the RPS is the balance will shift a few times. This works out well. The LW should be running wild right now.
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I've never said anything is over modeled or under modeled. The fact is it's hard to get kills with 303's IN THIS SIM. All the long winded explainations on DM's, and pointing out how inferior the tactics, and flying abilities of the Allies is a crock. The simple fact is the 303's are weak. So why all the hot air? It's a fact. Gentlemen start your merlins and deal with it. If it gets frustrating log off go do something else for a while, log back on and try again.
Again, implying the gun is "weak", leads to a false conclusion that perhaps it might be 'undermodelled'. I, in turn, have never said that you were the one complaining about it.
I simply said you are wrong, and are mixing up stuff that should not be mixed. Long explanations are required, precisely, to avoid the kind of mix-up you are showing... which unfortunately, doesn't seem to work on some people. You can teach a kid for days why "1+1 = 2", and at the final day, the kid still answers, " 1 + 1 = 11".
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I can't resist one last whine (sorry).
In frustration I tried the TBM for the first time last night. I have NEVER flown it before, but I have a lot of experience in the Spit I, even in the MA. Nevertheless, I now have a considerably better k/d in the TBM, used solely as a fighter, than I have in the Spit I.
That's just wrong.
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I think people take this game way to seriously...
:D
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Originally posted by soda72
I think people take this game way to seriously...
:D
Your right soda. So you guys in JG54 be a little less serious about shooting me to peices every night.:D
Okay Kweassa. I do respect your wealth of knowledge, seriously. So I'll just end my point with.
I really don't like using the 303's.:aok
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Eh, one thing you MUST say when comparing AH to IL2 is that IL2 has more internal stuff to damage, yes, but it's also way overboard in the opposite extreme!
Unless you fly with "simplistic gunnery" or unless you fly with "unlimited ammo" you will 99% of the time unload EVERY ROUND you have into a plane point blank and receive no kill, no fire, no damage, just put holes in its wings.
So while AH2 is to ONE extreme (no internal damage, hardly able to make a kill with 303s), IL2 is far across the spectrum at the other end (millions of stuff to damage, hardly able to make a kill with 303s).
The result is the same. Hardly able to make a kill.
Ideally (and this is my wish) we will get some internal things that are easily damaged by lighter caliber MGs but won't seriously throw off gameplay. Bombers especially need this.
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dudes damage the pilot, aim for the cockpit.
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Eh, one thing you MUST say when comparing AH to IL2 is that IL2 has more internal stuff to damage, yes, but it's also way overboard in the opposite extreme!
Unless you fly with "simplistic gunnery" or unless you fly with "unlimited ammo" you will 99% of the time unload EVERY ROUND you have into a plane point blank and receive no kill, no fire, no damage, just put holes in its wings.
So while AH2 is to ONE extreme (no internal damage, hardly able to make a kill with 303s), IL2 is far across the spectrum at the other end (millions of stuff to damage, hardly able to make a kill with 303s).
The result is the same. Hardly able to make a kill.
Er... nope.
I don't know which gunnery model you are talking about, but the 'unrealistically hard to shoot down' gunnery in IL-2 disappeared at least two or three years ago. If anything, I find it actually easier to shoot down planes in IL-2, since they don't shrug off shots like it was nothing in AH.
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The other day we were intercepting a JU88 raid. It was a large group. There were escorting 109s..8 I think as well. There was 6 of us. I was acting flight lead and ordred to attack the JU88s. I said when we go in..we attack the left most formation, left most plane of that formation, in the left wing. We attacked...As we did so I saw smoke from the engine but that was about it.
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Compare the one contendor to AH in WW2 combat flight simulation gaming, IL-2/FB series.
This Flight Sim is still very much alive, as this film made from a scenario frame from a couple of weeks ago, attests.
http://www.savlan.com/475fg/videos/the_gauntlet.wmv
That being said, exactly the same debate over FMs, DMs and ammo loads is being conducted in WBs World War Two arena . The argument over there, now years old, is about undermodelled and badly undergunned early war Axis planes. By contrast to Aces High, 109s are said to be defanged, and the Brit .303s are said to be lasers. FWIW, the Aces High modelling on both counts is much better ... I played both games for more than two years. Emils and Franzs should be deadly because they actually were when flown as intended, and there are plenty of players in AH who really know how to fly them well.
Interesting, isn't it? In Air Warrior the same debate raged for years in their Allies vs. Axis arena. It's in the nature of the rps in an historical setting which brings these arguments out, probably.
I quit WBs over the neglect of their Allies vs. Axis arena, only to find, on my return to full time playing in AH, that Aces High has developed an Allies v Axis arena all its own!
Lucky me! It feels like Old Home Week (emphasis on old!)
BRAVO HTC!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:aok
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Originally posted by eh
I quit WBs over the neglect of their Allies vs. Axis arena, only to find, on my return to full time playing in AH, that Aces High has developed an Allies v Axis arena all its own!
Good to see you again, eh.
- oldman
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Thank you oldman. I remember you from years back (The Old Ones of Air Warrior). Great squadron... great bunch. I am glad that you are still all together.
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Originally posted by eh
Thank you oldman. I remember you from years back (The Old Ones of Air Warrior). Great squadron... great bunch. I am glad that you are still all together.
Heh. That was a different guy, "Oldmn" in AW. He flew RR. I was "Oldma" in FR. I believe that Oldmn still flies in AH, used to see him on my very occasional visits to the MA.
- oldman