Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Russian on January 21, 2006, 10:18:30 PM
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On the evening of 26th, I and my friend had a few drink inside my apartment. Around 2100 we went outside. I was smoking cigar and sitting on steps which were 5 feet away from my front door. My friend was standing next to me and started yelling something which lasted for about 5-10 minutes or so. Then he threw up and passed out. I picked him up and we stayed outside for about 20 minutes. All the sudden police showed up and told me to get into the house which I did. (They did not ask permission to enter) I sat my friend on a chair and suddenly cop grabbed me and hand cupped me. Then they grabbed my friend and dragged him away.
While being interrogated by one cop, two other cops were searching my house. They went though everything, made a huge mess and then just left without telling me anything.
Later on I found out that my friend was taken to a hospital, and they did something to him, make him sign some papers and ‘released’ him. His unwanted hospital bill is 3200$ + 1000$ for ambulance and still unknown $ for doctor.
My question: Is this legal? Can they enter my house, take my friends away, handcup me and search my house without a warrant or permission? Can I do something about this?
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Yes. You were in public, intoxicated and disturbing the peace. Once you re-enter your home they can follow you inside. If you had stayed outside, they could not enter for a search without a warrant.
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Originally posted by Russian
On the evening of 26th, I and my friend had a few drink inside my apartment. Around 2100 we went outside. I was smoking cigar and sitting on steps which were 5 feet away from my front door. My friend was standing next to me and started yelling something which lasted for about 5-10 minutes or so. Then he threw up and passed out. I picked him up and we stayed outside for about 20 minutes. All the sudden police showed up and told me to get into the house which I did. (They did not ask permission to enter) I sat my friend on a chair and suddenly cop grabbed me and hand cupped me. Then they grabbed my friend and dragged him away.
While being interrogated by one cop, two other cops were searching my house. They went though everything, made a huge mess and then just left without telling me anything.
Later on I found out that my friend was taken to a hospital, and they did something to him, make him sign some papers and ‘released’ him. His unwanted hospital bill is 3200$ + 1000$ for ambulance and still unknown $ for doctor.
My question: Is this legal? Can they enter my house, take my friends away, handcup me and search my house without a warrant or permission? Can I do something about this?
It is Legal, If they believe you are a Danger to the Public (Your Friend Yelling for 10mins) and you both being Drunk, They have can Arrest you, Now as for the Coming in without Permission, That is not Legal, And if you were arrested after they came into the apartment without permission it makes it a False Arrest, Therfore all Charges Can be Dismissed infront of a Judge for a False Arrest, Any Evidence found in the Home is not Submissible to the Judge or DA. I would advise calling the DA about this and having all Hospital Bills and Charges Dropped due to this all happening with Illegal Entry unto your House. I would speak with the DA and Chief about that Actually. That Breaks the 4th Ammendment i do believe. Illegal Search and Seiziure without a Warrant or the Partys Permission. ****HERE AS SHOW IS THE 4TH AMMENDMENT: 4th Amendment-
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated; and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.
****
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Originally posted by rpm
Yes. You were in public, intoxicated and disturbing the peace. Once you re-enter your home they can follow you inside. If you had stayed outside, they could not enter for a search without a warrant.
The Police can not Legally Arrest both of them, Only one was Being a Disturbance to the Peace, And as for Following them into their home they are not allowed to enter without the Homeowners Permission, And seeing as the Homeowner was not the one Disturbing the Peace they had no Right under Federal Law to Enter without Permission. Thus Again leading to the 4th Ammendment or Illegal Search and Seizure, The Homeowner was under no Circumstances breaking the Law by sitting outside, If he had caused a Disturbance yes this would be a Legal Arrest, But Russia was Arrested under no Circumstances Related to Disturbing the Peace. The PD Illegaly Entered the house and Placed both of them under Arrest. Now if they had done it correctly they would have Arrested the Other guy outside and not waited untill he had Entered Someone Elses Premises. Thus for russia not Giving them Permission to Enter they made 2 false Arrests and then To Search his Home under a False arrest leads to breaking the 4th Ammendment. The only Police officers permitted by law to enter a house without a Warrant or Evidence of a Crime in the house and the Suspect being there is a Sgt or Above in Rank.
4th ammendment:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/
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You can sue and win, or kill someone and get away with it... it all depends on how much you spend on a lawyer.
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AFAIK, you need to be given a test to see if you are DIP (drunk in public). Since they didn't, they can't lawfully assume you are and then enter your residence based on assumption.
I really don't see how this is legal in anyway.
-SW
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Originally posted by outbreak
The Police can not Legally Arrest both of them, Only one was Being a Disturbance to the Peace, And as for Following them into their home they are not allowed to enter without the Homeowners Permission, And seeing as the Homeowner was not the one Disturbing the Peace they had no Right under Federal Law to Enter without Permission.
Both had been drinking, both were in public. Even if the cop told them to go inside, he can follow them inside (direct pursuit) to make an arrest. Once inside he can search for weapons to make sure he is safe and look for contraband in direct view.
Thus Again leading to the 4th Ammendment or Illegal Search and Seizure, The Homeowner was under no Circumstances breaking the Law by sitting outside, If he had caused a Disturbance yes this would be a Legal Arrest, But Russia was Arrested under no Circumstances Related to Disturbing the Peace. The PD Illegaly Entered the house and Placed both of them under Arrest. Now if they had done it correctly they would have Arrested the Other guy outside and not waited untill he had Entered Someone Elses Premises. Thus for russia not Giving them Permission to Enter they made 2 false Arrests and then To Search his Home under a False arrest leads to breaking the 4th Ammendment. The only Police officers permitted by law to enter a house without a Warrant or Evidence of a Crime in the house and the Suspect being there is a Sgt or Above in Rank.
Both were publicly intoxicated. If they had remained outside the police could not have entered. Rank makes no difference on the ability to enter. Once in direct pursuit they can follow a suspect anyhere he goes to make an arrest.
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alcohol is your friend :)
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Jim Beam is my co-pilot.
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Originally posted by rpm
Both had been drinking, both were in public. Even if the cop told them to go inside, he can follow them inside (direct pursuit) to make an arrest. Once inside he can search for weapons to make sure he is safe and look for contraband in direct view.
Both were publicly intoxicated. If they had remained outside the police could not have entered. Rank makes no difference on the ability to enter. Once in direct pursuit they can follow a suspect anyhere he goes to make an arrest.
The Points is, They both LEGALLY have to Cause a Disturbance for it to be a Legal Arrest, Now his Friend did disturb the Peace, Russia Did not. IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO DRINK AND BE OUTSIDE. The Officer if was going to Arrest should have done it on the Spot and not Arrested Russia after ILLEGALY entering his Apartment, The Officer had no Right to Follow Russia into his Apartment because of the simple fact, RUSSIA DID NOT DISTURB THE PEACE. Therfore making it Illegal Search and Seizure. And Illegal Entry without Consent, Under the 4th Ammendment he has all rights to Authorize the PD to enter or not, It is therefore ILLEGAL to enter without Having any Plausable Reason to ARREST THE HOUSES OWNER. Being Drunk is not a Crime.
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Originally posted by outbreak
Being Drunk is not a Crime.
Yes, it is if you are in public. It was a legal bust.
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Originally posted by rpm
Yes, it is if you are in public. It was a legal bust.
It is not Illegal to drink in public only if you are causing a Disturbance or if you are Driving/Fighting. It is Legal to Drink outside your home as long as you are over the age of 21.
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If russian didnt get a drunk in public citation isnt it all mute? And Were you drunk Russian?
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If they were not given a test, which should be followed by a breathalizer, they could not be said to be DIP.
-SW
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Originally posted by outbreak
It is not Illegal to drink in public only if you are causing a Disturbance or if you are Driving/Fighting. It is Legal to Drink outside your home as long as you are over the age of 21.
not where I'm from (VA)
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Yes, it is if you are in public. It was a legal bust.
Public Drunkeness doesn't literally mean being drunk in public.
However, it does mean being roudy, unable to control yourself, and vomiting uncontrollably.
Public Drunkeness means getting TOO drunk. Which perfectly explains what his friend did.
Now, I do not know about the implications of them being inside your apartment so I can't help there.
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Originally posted by rpm
Both had been drinking, both were in public. Even if the cop told them to go inside, he can follow them inside (direct pursuit) to make an arrest. Once inside he can search for weapons to make sure he is safe and look for contraband in direct view.
Seems to me that ordering someone to go back inside, they saying they were directly pursuing the person so they could arrest them would still be illegal entry, because they weren't given permission to enter.
I don't see how they could try to justify it by saying they were in pursuit when he was told to go back inside. If a cop is gonna arrest someone, they don't tell'em to go back inside, they tell'em they're under arrest.
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Contact a lawyer and get an opinion that means something.
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Originally posted by SOB
Contact a lawyer and get an opinion that means something.
Whats the fun in that? Spoil sport!:D
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Originally posted by SOB
Contact a lawyer and get an opinion that means something.
Get your hands on a copy of the police report, then do what SOB said if it doesn't answer your questions.
You could also get in touch with a commander in the department to get their story, but your lawyer would probably advise against that so you don't make any statements that could hurt a possible future case. Your call as to whether you do that, as your lawyer has a vested ($$$) interest in keeping you shut up and doing it himself for a few hundred bucks an hour. I wouldn't recommend talking to people at the department if you plan on going to court, as something you say will come back to haunt you.
Also, most of the posts here don't apply, as laws vary from state to state regarding most of this stuff.
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Dont invite beetle over to your house anymore.
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Aren't you still active duty, Russian? You can ask the Area Defense Council on base. They can't represent you, but they should be able to give you a better legal understanding.
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Originally posted by CavemanJ
Seems to me that ordering someone to go back inside, they saying they were directly pursuing the person so they could arrest them would still be illegal entry, because they weren't given permission to enter.
I don't see how they could try to justify it by saying they were in pursuit when he was told to go back inside. If a cop is gonna arrest someone, they don't tell'em to go back inside, they tell'em they're under arrest.
Ever step out of your car at a traffic stop and have the cop tell you to get back in? Same thing. You don't have to get back in the car, but doing so gives the cop the right to look around inside for his safety. I believe Maverick and En4cer are cops. See what they say.
Regardless of the court outcome, you and your friend will always have an arrest record.
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Originally posted by outbreak
The Points is, They both LEGALLY have to Cause a Disturbance for it to be a Legal Arrest
IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO DRINK AND BE OUTSIDE.
Don`t know how it is in the Showme state, but here in Texas you can be arrested for public intoxication sitting on your deck or patio .
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Originally posted by rpm
Ever step out of your car at a traffic stop and have the cop tell you to get back in? Same thing. You don't have to get back in the car, but doing so gives the cop the right to look around inside for his safety. I believe Maverick and En4cer are cops. See what they say.
Regardless of the court outcome, you and your friend will always have an arrest record.
When the officer has you stay in the vehicle he is doing so as a means to increase his chances for a safe outcome of the interaction with the violater. It decreases the chances of a physical confrontation, decreases the ability of the violater to flee and allows the officer to maintain visual control and be aware of his surrondings. He/she is not doing it just so they can have a peek inside your car :noid (that's just the bonus part :p )
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Like Tarmac said, all states are different.
Working on one now where a guy was drunk on his front porch and was asked if he had any guns in the house, he screwed up and said yes and was charged with intoxicated person in possesion of a firearm after they found a loaded 12gauge in his bedroom on the second floor.
Will keep all you gun nuts up to date on the progress of this one :)
shamus
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I don't have much else to add cept the following. THEY DO NOT NEED A WARRENT TO ENTER RUSSIAN'S APARTMENT IF and only IF they have permmission to do so from the owner/property manager. Same goes for hotel rooms and such.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Don`t know how it is in the Showme state, but here in Texas you can be arrested for public intoxication sitting on your deck or patio .
so in America you can get arrested walking home from the bar because you are drunk in public?
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Originally posted by Furball
so in America you can get arrested walking home from the bar because you are drunk in public?
Yup,
Publix intoxication in most states is illegal. Your chances of getting arrested for such increase ten fold when you are: Naked and drunk, loud and drunk, violen and drunk, puking and drunk ect.
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If you need legal advice go ask a lawyer in your state. Asking for legal advice on a public bbs from people who may not even be in the same country is a waste of time. You can find several legal sources who will give you a free first interview to determine if you need their sevices. Use one of those and get competant advice not BS from a bbs. :rolleyes:
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I don't have much else to add cept the following. THEY DO NOT NEED A WARRENT TO ENTER RUSSIAN'S APARTMENT IF and only IF they have permmission to do so from the owner/property manager. Same goes for hotel rooms and such.
Gunslinger, I hate to burst your bubble here, but you are completely wrong.
As long as he is updated on his rent and still in his rent dates it is RUSSIAN who does or does not give permission to enter the apartment. Even the owner cannot enter without permission from Russian.
Should Russian not pay his rent, then the owner can say what or what not to do.
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Originally posted by Dago
Dont invite beetle over to your house anymore.
ROFL!!
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Gunslinger, I hate to burst your bubble here, but you are completely wrong.
As long as he is updated on his rent and still in his rent dates it is RUSSIAN who does or does not give permission to enter the apartment. Even the owner cannot enter without permission from Russian.
Should Russian not pay his rent, then the owner can say what or what not to do.
I don't think you are correct here, but I'm no lawyer. If I own a property and the police want to search it, I can give them access to it all I want proably depending on the lease agreement I have the the tennents.
As far as russians case goes I think RPM is correct here. If they would have never gone back inside police would have no PC to enter it.
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when you went back in the house you should have locked the door behind you.
same thing whenever you are asked o step out of your house or car by a police officer, lock the door as you leave. it removes a lot of the gray area between legal and illegal search or entry.
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no body was arrested, the friend was taken to a hospital because he could have had alcohol poisoning and died, i don't know why they came in the house (looking for drugs?).
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Deleted.
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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Deleted.
2- Threads should remain on topic, do not "hijack" topics.
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ooops - don't know what I said that was wrong ^ - just quoted a line from the American national anthem - didn't know that was forbidden - sorry MP8!
Furball - yes, things are different over there. When I worked in California, there were frequent parties hosted by the expat community. At some, the split was 50/50 American/English. Sometimes it was 95% English. I remember one occasion when the cops showed up just as I was leaving. Well, you know how it is - English parties don't get started until midnight, when everyone is back from the pub. Apparently someone had called the cops because of the noise. But then, what can one expect in a community where they go to bed at 9pm. :lol
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Yup,
Publix intoxication in most states is illegal. Your chances of getting arrested for such increase ten fold when you are: Naked and drunk, loud and drunk, violen and drunk, puking and drunk ect.
that is just ridiculous.
how do the police expect people to get home from bars/clubs etc?
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furbal,
Taxis, designated driver. One should also be adult enough to stop imbibing before you get to the grossly drunken stage as well. Couldn't you figure that out on your own???
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isn't being in a car on the public highway considered being in public?
what if you walk home with a box over you, would you be considered in public then?
when they say the law is "being drunk in public" does it mean simply that, or "drunk and disorderly" as the law states here?
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Don't screw around listening to all the legal know-it-alls on here. Go see an attorney, most will do a free consultation and from there tell you if they can, or can not help.
Sometimes all it takes is a well placed letter from legal counsel threatening action and they will change their tune quickly.
Another course of action is for you to place a call to your local ACLU office. They love things like this, especially with immigrants being abused by police. They may even provide legal counsel for free.
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Originally posted by Furball
that is just ridiculous.
how do the police expect people to get home from bars/clubs etc?
That's the chance you take when you choose to drink outside of your own home. Society has changed.
The way they drove many of the bars out of business around here was to simply sit outside of a club and wait for you to leave. Viola, instant DWI.
FYI, it is also illegal to be drunk inside a bar in Texas. You, your server and the liquor license holder all can be charged.
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Originally posted by Furball
when they say the law is "being drunk in public" does it mean simply that, or "drunk and disorderly" as the law states here?
American definition of drunk = 2x 12oz tins of Bud and after 10pm! :rofl
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Originally posted by rpm
That's the chance you take when you choose to drink outside of your own home. Society has changed.
The way they drove many of the bars out of business around here was to simply sit outside of a club and wait for you to leave. Viola, instant DWI.
FYI, it is also illegal to be drunk inside a bar in Texas. You, your server and the liquor license holder all can be charged.
ROFL.
your country never ceases to amaze me. what ridiculous drinking laws. alcohol is legal but if you get caught drunk in the slammer you go.
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Originally posted by beet1e
American definition of drunk = 2x 12oz tins of Bud and after 10pm! :rofl
English dont have to define being drunk, it is a normal state. If your awake, your probably drunk.
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Originally posted by Dago
English dont have to define being drunk, it is a normal state. If your awake, your probably drunk.
What, it's the whole country now? :lol
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Originally posted by Furball
so in America you can get arrested walking home from the bar because you are drunk in public?
Technically speaking, yes.
But, for an officer to stop you and investigate whether or not he ought to do so requires probable cause. That means you're only in danger of being arrested for being drunk if you misbehave or appear so intoxicated as to represent a danger to yourself or others around you.
culero
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Originally posted by Furball
snip
when they say the law is "being drunk in public" does it mean simply that, or "drunk and disorderly" as the law states here?
The details vary from state to state, since this isn't a matter that federal law may address. However, in practice, I believe you'll find that "disorderly" is indeed a component of any enforcement.
culero
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Originally posted by beet1e
What, it's the whole country now? :lol
From what I have read, yes. Not something I would laugh about though.
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Beet, Furby,
You guys aint heard nothing yet. Go to the "bible belt" and look at some of the "blue laws" and "dry county" Rules
Where I used to live in Texas, it was considered a "dry county" Only liqure stores could sell liqure. There were no bars persay but in order to sell beer or hootch you had to have a "private club" and the club could sell memberships. If a person is drinking in a "club" they HAD to have a membership.
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I can't remember were it was exactly (20 years ago, and I've worked a lot of small towns across the country), it was some county in KS,OK, or AR, but we went to this bar that didn't sell alcohol at all. you had to buy your own bottle at the liquor store and they kept it behind the counter and they would provide the mixer and charge you to serve your own booze back to you.
apparently it was the only way to run a bar legally in that county. I only went with the crew the one time. I just couldn't see the point in paying someone to put distance between me and my bottle, and pour a glass of rye. I might have put up with it if the ******* hadn't kept putting ice in the glass.
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About disturbing the peace... 415PC
If I yell at the top of my lungs at 3am in the middle of the street, I am NOT disturbing anyone's peace... UNTIL someone asks me to stop and I continue to willfully disturb them. If nobody on my block cares, I can yell all I want.
Time of day does not matter. I used to work graveyard shift and slept in the day, if at 12:00 noon my neighbor is blasting music, I ask him to stop and he keeps rock'n out, he is disturbing my peace.
Dont confuse 415 of the PENAL CODE with some local city MUNICIPAL CODE that limits noise after a certain hour, like 10PM.
The main issue I see here is a (possible alcohol related) "medical emergency", your passed out buddy. Cops are not doctors, just because you say he's intoxicated means nothing... for all they know you were trying to kill him & he had been yelling for help.... plus you just don't know what the informant told the police dispatcher. Very often people call in and add the word "gun" or get way too excited thinking more drama gets the holstein there faster.
One question, was anyone under the legal drinking age?, or "appear" under age?.. when juveniles are involved the rules change bigtime.
You can be cuffed for the safety of the officers, and they are allowed to "detain" you for what the courts call a "reasonable amount of time"... which is generally 30 min.
Entering / searching your house, well, yes and no.
With a supine unconscious person, an open door, yelling AND a call for service... it'd be easy for them to justify whats called a "cursory search", a quick look around for more (passed out) people and or the source of the yelling. Had they found something, like narcotics, you might get arrested but have a great warrant-less search issue to bring up in court (called "the fruit of the poison tree")
If the door was shut, you could have easily told them to wank off.
I'm 99% sure your buddy was not arrested, but transported "for his safety" to the hosp... had the police "taken" him, they'd have to pay the bill.... its a dirty trick cops use to stick people with nasty MD bills.
In Cali, and other states, you can be arrested for public intoxication (647(f)PC), held for 4 to 6 hours and released (per: 894(b)(2)PC) WITH NO CHARGES being filed. It's a legal sober-up detention... but if he went to the hosp, this wasn't the case.
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Originally posted by outbreak
It is not Illegal to drink in public only if you are causing a Disturbance or if you are Driving/Fighting. It is Legal to Drink outside your home as long as you are over the age of 21.
In Cali having an open container in public can get you a ticket... and yes, a beer mug counts as open... exceptions being public places licensed to sell alcohol, like a bar or sporting event.
I believe in some states its still ok to have a beer in public, not Cali.
Can anyone here define what "drunk", or "public intoxication" is??
Public intoxication has no legal limit, like driving has; It's the inability to care for your safety or the safety of others, 1 beer or 20 beers. Red wattery eyes, slow slurred speech & mannerisims with the odor of alcoholic beverage is all it takes... so yeah, 95% of folks who drink up till 2am are legally intoxicated.
Also the police are under no obligation to test your blood alcohol limit for a 647 pinch, it's thier word versus yours.
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Originally posted by Dago
From what I have read, yes. Not something I would laugh about though.
It's OK to laugh - because it's bollocks.
:lol <--- for dago :)
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Originally posted by beet1e
because it's bollocks.
^ what he said.
i still can't believe those laws regarding alcohol, to say i am suprised is an understatement. i am going there in the summer, i had no idea and will now be careful.
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basically we have so many laws on so many stupid subjects that it's virtually impossible to not be in violation of one or 2 at any given moment.
IMO the it boils down to the powers that be not liking it when the constitution gets in the way of them doing whatever they feel like doing at the moment. so they make up these stupid assed laws and say that they'll "use discretion in enforcement". what that means is they don't intend to really make an issue of the law itself, it's just a tool they can use to take away your constitutional rights when they feel like violating them.
something like--"no it was not a harassment stop. the suspect was in violation of the 1902 ordnance that required all motor vehicles operated in town at night to be preceded by 50 yds by a man carrying a lantern. I noticed he was in violation of that law and during the stop found....."
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
In Cali having an open container in public can get you a ticket...
And having a shirt button undone will get you three to five in folsom :)
Do as Bodhi said talk to the ACLU and a lawyer.