Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Jimdandy on January 14, 2001, 03:26:00 PM
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I heard a very interesting rumor. There was a batch of rivets that went out to the airplane manufactures that were not aircraft quality. It effects any plane that these were used in. I have no cold facts on this. It would seem to be a major deal if it did happen. I heard they didn't catch it tell after the fact. Thus several plane were built with these buy different manufactures. Can anyone confirm this. LOL would anyone want to if they could. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I know that back in the late '50s, there was an enormous problem with the F-86's ailerons locking into a roll at a certain speed and g-load near the ground. It took the USAF a while to find it, but I believe C. Yeager was in the group that found it out...one of the assembly line workings in the North American plant was ignoring a diagram on how to insert a bolt in the aileron. He had worked on the same line during P-51 production, and he thought he knew better and installed it the same way as it went on the 51's ailerons.
I believe that lone worker was responsible for at least a dozen deaths, many ejections, and hundreds of close calls.
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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Yes I read about that one. The worker was actually placing the bolt upside down on the planes.
3 test pilots got killed when the airplane lost control when they were testing accidents related to loss of control during high speed dives/rolls. The worker was never told this nor fired, he was just told to put the bolts the other way (how it was supposed to be)
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They should ask duma first. All of them exceed specs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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There are plenty of parts on airplanes that are out of spec. There are millions of parts and dozens of specs for each part. If they inspected every single spec on every single part, you wouldn't be flying an airliner, you'd be flying the space shuttle. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Jigster:
I know that back in the late '50s, there was an enormous problem with the F-86's ailerons locking into a roll at a certain speed and g-load near the ground. It took the USAF a while to find it, but I believe C. Yeager was in the group that found it out...one of the assembly line workings in the North American plant was ignoring a diagram on how to insert a bolt in the aileron. He had worked on the same line during P-51 production, and he thought he knew better and installed it the same way as it went on the 51's ailerons.
I believe that lone worker was responsible for at least a dozen deaths, many ejections, and hundreds of close calls.
Yes I read Yeagers book Press On. He said that they never told the worker what the consequences of his actions were. They just made sure he didn't do it again. They felt that there was no point in it. That was a very different time in the US.
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Originally posted by funked:
There are plenty of parts on airplanes that are out of spec. There are millions of parts and dozens of specs for each part. If they inspected every single spec on every single part, you wouldn't be flying an airliner, you'd be flying the space shuttle. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yes. There might be a little difference though between a scattered group of parts in different systems not being to spec and a whole wing riveted with inferior rivets. A very big difference. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dammit! I thought you guys were giving Duma a hard time! I was ready to get midievil (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Dammit! I thought you guys were giving Duma a hard time! I was ready to get midievil (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
No just fishing for info. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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All of the Rivets talk reminds me of the time a sheet-metal troop was out of aluminum rivets in his kit when repairing a loose rivet in a fuel cell. He used another rivet from his kit that was the same size. Unfortunately it was made of steel and didn't react to the grinder as expected. It is unknow if the airman had time to realize his mistake (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
All of the Rivets talk reminds me of the time a sheet-metal troop was out of aluminum rivets in his kit when repairing a loose rivet in a fuel cell. He used another rivet from his kit that was the same size. Unfortunately it was made of steel and didn't react to the grinder as expected. It is unknow if the airman had time to realize his mistake (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
AKDejaVu
Oooh. That reminders me of a welding safety film. This really smart guy got an "empty" acetylene bottle and was trying to take the valve out of it in the vice in his shop. It wasn't even a full size bottle. It was a little half size one. Well as you might know acetylene bottles are NEVER empty. It leveled (I do meen leveled) his shop and the 2 story farm house that set about 100yrds away looked like it had been attacked by a bunch of drunken duck hunters. The only thing left of the guy was from his waste down.
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that reminds me of a Bell 412 in louisiana.it was equipt with a shid float system and it was time to do an inflation check where you blow the floats using a 2000 lb oxygen bottle but not the one in the ship.Anyhow the FAA/PMA approved bottle was removed and a test bottle screwed in.Everyone went to lunch and returned to do the test and the guys that installed the test bottle only got three threads engaged and the bottle was loose so when the cap was blown the bottle went through the helicopters cabin out the otherside through a wall through two snap-on tool boxes out a steel wall and nailed a pickup truck bed and spun around on the ground till it was empty.The lucky thing was the lead mechanic was leaning on the side of the helicopter where the bottle exited the aircraft just before the incident a junior mechanic asked him a question and he walked over to talk with him.Yes this is a true story and i saw the aftermath and all the tools in the driveway where the bottle exited the building.
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Originally posted by funked:
There are plenty of parts on airplanes that are out of spec. There are millions of parts and dozens of specs for each part. If they inspected every single spec on every single part, you wouldn't be flying an airliner, you'd be flying the space shuttle. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And then you better hope the fuel valves are to spec.
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Originally posted by Pongo:
And then you better hope the fuel valves are to spec.
Pongo, I think he's completely missed the point in the first place. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) You really better hope it's ALL to spec. I really don't see how putting something together with the properly designed parts makes it 'better'? Doesn't that make it right? How would it make a Space Shuttle out of a 747 to have the part that it was designed for on it. Are we talking about inferior cup holders or hydraulic lines? "Damn that things like the Space Shuttle. Those hydraulic lines are to spec!" "Yee Haaa Billy Bob your right! Down where we come from we would have repaired that with some old shoe leather and chewing gum. What the heck are they go'in to such finery for. Weeel Dogy's" COME ON!
"...Hey, it's all ball bearings these days!..." From the movie Fletch
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-16-2001).]
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Jimdandy I'm referring to the expense. They could inspect every last spec on every last part of an airliner but the cost would be ridiculous. That kind of thing is only done for aircraft where cost is no object, e.g. the Space Shuttle.
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Originally posted by funked:
Jimdandy I'm referring to the expense. They could inspect every last spec on every last part of an airliner but the cost would be ridiculous. That kind of thing is only done for aircraft where cost is no object, e.g. the Space Shuttle.
I still don't get it. I understand that they aren't going to disassemble the plane down to it's individual parts and inspect it every time. What I'm asking is where was the QC? Inferior parts should never be put on a plane or any public transportation for that matter. No one expects the inspector to do anything but his standard inspection. If he sees something during his standard inspection he better repot it. The problem I'm referring to must have occurred as a long chain of QC screw ups beginning at the factory. The system is supposed to be set up to catch those kind of mistakes before exorbitant amounts of money need to be spent to correct it. And long before anyone gets hurt (As far as I know the problem doesn't exist and noone has been hurt.) That is why all the spec's have been put in place and why all of the QC people are there to check them. I only posted this to fish for information on a RUMOR that I herd. I have NO IDEA, NONE, if it actually happened or not. I was hoping beyond hope that with all of the other plane nuts on here there was someone else that had heard it or knew it to be fact or fiction. If they could prove or disprove it. If a batch of bad rivets has gone out and has been used to build planes it's not a good thing. I know for a fact that if that has occurred we wouldn't be talking one or two rivets in a plane. We would be talking about major sections if not the whole thing. Aircraft manufacturers don't go down to the local hard ware store and buy a box of rivets. When they buy rivets they buy lots in train car loads.
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What I'm asking is where was the QC?
Erm.. you ever try to QC a rivet? Any idea how the Airlines would enforce these inspections?
Most of this is done at the supplier level. The airlines have strict specs that they require the suppliers to meet. They send inpsectors to ensure that rules are in place to ensure the standards are met. It is just difficult to have the inspector there when the mistake is made.
These things happen. When they do, it is important that everyone focus on making them not happen again.
BTW, it would not suprise me if EVERY rivet in a jet was inspected at assembly for proper installation and fit. Just what made the rivet not meet spec is not always readily aparent. Its not like they are checking for alloy content on them on the assembly line.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Erm.. you ever try to QC a rivet? Any idea how the Airlines would enforce these inspections?
Most of this is done at the supplier level. The airlines have strict specs that they require the suppliers to meet. They send inspectors to ensure that rules are in place to ensure the standards are met. It is just difficult to have the inspector there when the mistake is made.
These things happen. When they do, it is important that everyone focus on making them not happen again.
BTW, it would not surprise me if EVERY rivet in a jet was inspected at assembly for proper installation and fit. Just what made the rivet not meet spec is not always readily apparent. Its not like they are checking for alloy content on them on the assembly line.
AKDejaVu
I know how the paper trail of QC runs. I never said that they could find a QC stamp on a rivet. What I did say was that it was a long line of mistakes that started at the manufacturer. I did forget to mention that it was the material that was inferior. I don't think anyone can just look at a rivet or put a set of go no-go gauges on them and tell if they are or aren't the right material. That would have to be done with testing. I think that if this has happened the fault lies at the manufacturer of the rivet for sending the wrong material with the right Certificate of Compliance. I do think that it should be a lesson to be learned from and corrected so it doesn't happen in the future, that is only obvious. I would like to see random testing of materials on site for structural components of aircraft. It will be no consolation to the families of the people in the plane crash that the right cert was sent. It isn't a perfect world but this would be a big screw up if it has happened. And we are only talking about a RUMOR.
BTW why should anyone defend the building of an inferior piece of public transportation. Or be saying that these things just happen. Especially when were only talking about a RUMOR. I'm trying to find out if anyone has heard or can confirm this rumor. I didn't intend to be defending the right to ride in a safe plane. Or to see a hole bunch of excuses as to why things like these happen. I know how things like this happen. So do you. Am I addressing some nervous QC people defending the fact that there human and can make mistakes? Of course they can. The problem occurs when no one reports the screw up or goes out and fixes it after it has been reported. If it is a RUMOR then by default someone knows it happened. What I want to find out is if the rumor is true. I completely see the line of mistakes that could cause this to happen. Lets get off the defense of the QC and the manufacturer and answer my question. Have you heard this rumor or not?
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-16-2001).]
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I still don't get it.
Agreed!
*poof*
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Erm... lets revisit your attempt to verify a rumor concerning the manufacture of aircraft using substandard rivets in an Aces High O'Club forum. Even if someone had heard the rumor.. 2 people hearing a rumor does not make it any less of a rumor.
Maybe we could get one of the Boeing guys to come in here and tell us they use substandard rivets all the time.
Really, you just presented the rumor for a certain level of shock realism. When it comes to commercial (not public btw) aircraft, you don't even want to start looking at real safety issues. You'd never fly again. Assembly using out of spec rivets is much less of a concern to me than maintenance done by sub-par workers. I've heard horror stories from people that have been there.
AKDejaVu
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After smelling strong avgas fumes during the return trip from Oshkosh, Wisconson back to Detroit, Michigan one year, I removed the fuel tank from my Aeronca 7AC Champ and found a leak where it had been chafing on a sheet metal screw... for God knows how long.
I decided to repair the tank myself to save some cash, and I would ask my AP mech buddy to sign off on it. I drained the fuel tank (13 gal cap) and using a garden hose, I filled it completely up with water 3 times to make absolutely certain that there could be no gasoline fumes left in the tank. I then leaned over the filler neck, lit a torch and got blown backasswards, completely off the stool I had been sitting on. My hair and eyebrows was really burnt, but I was ok... just a little bit embarrassed and a little bit wiser for the experience. The sheet metal screw that caused the problem was put in by the previous owner who, like a nitwit, was trying to save some money by doing some sheet metal work himself... heh heh
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Gunthr
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Erm... lets revisit your attempt to verify a rumor concerning the manufacture of aircraft using substandard rivets in an Aces High O'Club forum. Even if someone had heard the rumor.. 2 people hearing a rumor does not make it any less of a rumor.
Maybe we could get one of the Boeing guys to come in here and tell us they use substandard rivets all the time.
Really, you just presented the rumor for a certain level of shock realism. When it comes to commercial (not public btw) aircraft, you don't even want to start looking at real safety issues. You'd never fly again. Assembly using out of spec rivets is much less of a concern to me than maintenance done by sub-par workers. I've heard horror stories from people that have been there.
AKDejaVu
Your right. The fact is I was just bored and looking for something to do. I heard it and thought I'd throw it out there. I never figured anyone would even reply much less get passionate about it. Secondly I never thought anyone would start trying to do damage control and defend a rumor. It's been more interesting than I had predicted.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-16-2001).]
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Well i can tell you it happens sometimes that BOEING sends out an telex asking for removal of certain rivets and or bolts .. because they figured someoen used the wrong grip length etc...
thinking about how MANY rivets, bolts, hi-locks are in one of tese birds tho it's a pretty smal percentage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
DW6
(still believes in Boeing A/C (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))