Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: slimey_J on January 23, 2006, 11:55:13 AM
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Hey there, just a quick question:
Is there really much use for bombing the ack factories, oil refineries or other strategic targets? I read the help file and I’m aware of the general concept of the game’s supply system (City -> Strategic Point -> Airfield), but does anyone in the main arena actually consider bombing something other than the standard FH/VH/town formula?
On a whim, I took a formation of B-24’s to one of the enemy's ack factories and was able to reduce their AAA percentage in that zone to 80%. So, does this mean that it will take 20% more time for the ack to re-pop at all the airfields in that zone?
Just digging for some info, and wondering if anyone ever spends the time to attack strategic targets. Thanks. Cheers.
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As far as I know, all base stuff, be it hangers,fuel, ord come back up in a set amount of time. I dont think bombing those strats effect anything except it being fun to do so. Im not completely sure on this however as Ive seen isolated bases seem to never regen ord, but Im not sure if it was due to the zone control or what.
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Unless HTC neutered it without updating the help files, bombing the strats could definitely affect the game. Theoretically if you could get a bunch of friends to do nothing but blast strats, you could make a difference.
Thing is, that many buffs grouped together in the MA seem to only go for the HQ, or go to completely flatten an airfield that is the target of a capture.
Once again, teamwork would be the key -- something that is unfortunately hard to come by in the MA on a typical evening. Much better luck getting a bunch of people to vulch a field or go furball than actually do a strat bombing run.
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From the Help area...
Fuel Availability at the Field
The percentage of fuel available at a field is determined by whether a fuel object at the field has been hit, and the rebuild time depends on whether there is a resupply from the zone's refinery. The amount of supplies shipped via convoy from the refinery depends on if there is damage to the refinery.
Ordinance Availability at the Field
Ordinance available for aircraft, vehicles and/or boats at the field is displayed as part of the field status. The rebuild time of damaged or destroyed ordnance objects is determined by whether a resupply occurs from an ammunition factory of that zone. The amount of supplies shipped via convoy from the factory depends on if there is damage to the factory.
Radar Availability at the Field
The rebuild time of damaged or destroyed radar is determined by whether a resupply from the radar factory arrives at the field. The amount of supplies a radar factory for that country has been damaged or destroyed. The amount of supplies shipped via convoy from the factory depends on if there is damage to the radar factory.
Troop Availability at the Field
Troops must be available for loading on troop transports such as the C-47, M-3 and LVT-2. The rebuild time of damaged bunker objects is determined by whether a resupply of personnel from the training barracks of that country has arrived at the field.
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A good time to hit these targets is when your team is primarily conducting a push into the zones in which these targets reside and supply. For example, if your team is taking to the offensive in a zone (the best defense is a good offense), most likely they're going to knock out all the troops at bases within a reasonable coverage around the operational area. The starting ticker for these barracks (troops) is 2 hours. Rarely, if ever do I see a barracks stay down that long due to scripted resupply and manual resupply.
Obviously the ways to cut some supply would to go out goon hunting (or M3 hunting in the case of GVs) and targeting the scripted supply routes. The bombing alternate would be to bomb these strategic targets that are relative to the type of supply (Training Facility for troops, IE), and I think the magic % is below 50. Once below 50% operational, the facility takes a longer to start shipping out those relative supplies to a field within the zone. It's worth it when your team is pushing into enemy territory and trying to keep all the fields porked simultaneously and you don't own the "Home" field in that zone that controls all of the facilities that supply the various things. Usually bombers are tied up busy making sure troops, ords, dar, and FHs, and VHs are down at various fields. And usually the big coordinated raids go towards, you guessed it, the HQ.
The only time I've seen this in practice was one time my team was attacking one field on a lone island that was shared by another field that we currently owned. In the middle of the island was a Troop training facility (which we didn't control, as the field we had wasn't the "mother" field of the zone) which we got down to roughly 45%. Between that, and keeping tabs on the opposing field, we had to take action to make sure the troops were down less often. It's like a "behind the scenes" way of helping with the strat process. Taking down the troops at a field, and then hitting the facility for that zone below its optimal operational percentage, and that makes for one nice buffer. Then of course there's another huge aspect of hitting Cities so their resupply to the factories takes longer to keep their operational percentage lower longer, and then it takes even longer to fire off the scripted resupply routes.
It's a big net. The cities provide the factories and the HQ supplies, the factories provide the fields in that zone, and then the fields are the direct output for the players with troops, ammo, and fuel. As I see it, the progression (you could also reverse it, but doesn't make much sense to me) is hit the field strats, hit the factories if you can, and then aim for the cities. Of course, this would require a lot of manpower and/or decently, orchestrated, timed coordination to seem successful on certain levels. Mainly, hitting the strats with the most immediate effect is what chimes in.
But that's my .02. People might feel otherwise.
*EDIT* After writing all that, and seeing it written down.. it seems to be strategic bombing is highly overlooked and/or easily underrated in the effects it can cause if you have some decent, devoted bomber pilots besides the ones (or Jabos) already devoted to porking the fields.
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When the game went from each country having 1 city and 1 of each factory to the new system of Zones each with a city and 1 of each factory, the entire strat system was IMO destroyed.
Why spend the time and resources to kill the city and then the factories, when all you have to do is capture the zone control base?
AH MA strat system is non-existant.
I used to get into many posting wars with the furball crowd about why strat should be important in the MA. HTC has made the MA what they think works. I've pretty much given up on picketing for strats.
The 412th FS used to carry bombs and rockets on almost every flight. We would shut down strats all the time on squad nights. Now, I can't remember the last time I even selected bombs or rockets. We just go out, find the enemy and try to shoot them down... somewhat furball style.
Well... If you really want to see how much fun I think AH is, check my play stats for the last few months. Low numbers, and the only other game I have played in the last 2 years is HL2. Never played IL2, CFS, WB, WWIIOL, BF, CS, DoomIII, Quake 4, Halo, etc.
I am **HOPING** that CT will be fun.
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Although I agree with you Midnight in that the higher tiers of the strat system seem to be extended beyond reach of relative manpower and coordination to seem successful on varying levels, I'd have to argue that the most immediate strats are 99% of the game, most plainly - troops.
The RTC is one of the few squads that I've encountered so far (not saying that there aren't, to offend anyone) in my relatively short time playing the game that holds strats at a very high ech. If you want to see an offensive stop dead in its tracks for a semi-decent duration, watch the reaction after a properly executed strat run. Troops down within 100 miles from any of the front line bases. How do you capture fields? You need troops. How do you get troops? You need to bring them from a field (or CV, obviously) that has them. What will you do if the closest field you have with troops is 3-4 sectors back? Will you fly that C-47 the full gauntlet to find out mid-way that your team has lost the CAP superiority they once had, and if only if you had troops at one of the semi-close fields you could've capitalized on it.
That's not to say I don't, or the RTC doesn't enjoy a good furball. I can't say that I last long in one, nor do I try to get to the bottom of one too quick. There's certainly a difference between a potentially successful furball, and then one for the heck of it. If you like to head into a furball full steam with your squad members and you find that as fun - no one's saying otherwise. Thats what you pay your monthly fee for, and your entitled to do so. I just enjoy that the RTC, on squad night or not, concerns strats very highly. I enjoy that we can drop troops for a good coverage area, and turn that potentially deadly furball that's ever so closing in our base that could turn into a CAP for the capture into just another plain furball for both sides. Thats why I enjoy AH2. There's many ways to be "successful". In shooting down an enemy plane, killing a GV, or bringing an opposing team's rolling captures (or overall effeciency) to a grinding halt.
Different strokes for different folks. :)
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Right, so I guess my question is this: Are the zone percentages for a given strategic target directly related to the amount of time it takes to re-supply a damaged field? Are there any hard facts and numbers for this? In other words, the standard downtime for field ack is 2 hrs (game time). If we damage the ack factory and reduce the zone ack percentage to 50%, does that mean it will take 3 hrs for the guns to come back up at the field?
If this is the case, then it seems that the strategic importance of these targets could be huge. By myself, I was able to cut the ack percentage to 80%. So, if I had just one more person flying with me, we could potentially cut the percentage to 60% (maybe even 50%). I can recall a lot of situations in which our goon was trying to beat the clock and make the drop before the field started to re-pop. A few extra minutes of being “ack-free” is certainly a good thing.
Additionally, damage to the strategic targets impacts the entire zone. So, if my fellow Rooks are attacking two or three bases simultaneously (and none of them are the 'zone control base'), the rewards for a strategic strike are multiplied.
It just seems odd that these targets are ignored. We could be hitting the ack and radar factories of the country we’re offensively pushing against, while hitting the fuel, ord and training factories of the country we’re defending against. It doesn’t really take much – zone targets only require 250lbs bombs per building. Unless I’m way off the mark here (which is entirely possible), four or five bomber pilots attacking various strategic targets could really have a big impact on the game.
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Slimey, to answer your question, yes, if the factories in a strat zone are hit, then the re-supply is slowed down in that zone, but that zone only.
One reason this doesn't matter is the neighboring zone is not effected by the strat hit on the other. Also, the fields are so close together that someone would be able to fly supplies from a 100% field to a damaged field so even if the strats for a zone are hurt, the resupply system is not effected. No matter how many loads of supplies are taken from a 100% base, that base stays at 100%.
Also, the enemy gets 0 automatic resupply if the field is in a zone where the zone master base is not owned by them. So the best way to "Strat" your enemy in a zone is not to kill their factories, but to take the zone master base. Then ALL the factories and the city in that zone are instantly yours and the enemy is instanly cut off from resupply. That can't even be considered realistic or even a simulation of partial realism.
Socks, killing troops may slow the enemy from taking bases, but it does nothing to stop the endless Air-Quake furball. IRL, battles are won by destroying the enemy's abilty to fight back. There are many ways this can be done.
1. Killing them all. Can't be done in AH because everyone has infinite lives
2. Making them run out of resources
A. No more equipment - can't be done in AH other than at a per base level with FH, BH, VH
B. No more weapons - can't be done in AH because no matter how many ammo bunkers you kill, the enemy still has infinite bullets and cannon shells.
C. No more fuel - can't be done in AH at all anymore. Fuel is not a factor.
AH MA is nothing more than the average FPS capture the flag game. Respawn forver until your enemy gets so outnumbered that they just give up because they are tired of getting gang-banged.
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Originally posted by slimey_J
Right, so I guess my question is this: Are the zone percentages for a given strategic target directly related to the amount of time it takes to re-supply a damaged field? Are there any hard facts and numbers for this? In other words, the standard downtime for field ack is 2 hrs (game time). If we damage the ack factory and reduce the zone ack percentage to 50%, does that mean it will take 3 hrs for the guns to come back up at the field?
If this is the case, then it seems that the strategic importance of these targets could be huge. By myself, I was able to cut the ack percentage to 80%. So, if I had just one more person flying with me, we could potentially cut the percentage to 60% (maybe even 50%). I can recall a lot of situations in which our goon was trying to beat the clock and make the drop before the field started to re-pop. A few extra minutes of being “ack-free” is certainly a good thing.
Additionally, damage to the strategic targets impacts the entire zone. So, if my fellow Rooks are attacking two or three bases simultaneously (and none of them are the 'zone control base'), the rewards for a strategic strike are multiplied.
It just seems odd that these targets are ignored. We could be hitting the ack and radar factories of the country we’re offensively pushing against, while hitting the fuel, ord and training factories of the country we’re defending against. It doesn’t really take much – zone targets only require 250lbs bombs per building. Unless I’m way off the mark here (which is entirely possible), four or five bomber pilots attacking various strategic targets could really have a big impact on the game.
Don't get put off by some of the negative replies. If you like bombing go ahead and strat the enemy silly. It does slow their regain down which helps the push. Also you, as a bomber, get loadsa pekies / points / rank.
I find nailing a City then the factories really works best. Cities stay nailed for hours and the factories do regain slower. Time it if you like. One day hit factories only and time it to 100%. Next day nail the city then the factory. You'll see the factory takes longer to 100%.
Best to get the city to 20% or less. Takes some practice. My person best is 9% with 1 set of lancs. A squady and I have gotten cities to 4% in 2 sets of B17's. Factories really need to go below 50 %. One flight should do it. Again it's practise and experience. I'd give you the whole "low down" thats taken me a few years to refine BUT you maybe my enemy so go find out for yourself :p . I will give you this advice. Use the City and Factory maps on the clipboard to plan the minimum three passes you have to make. You can do that on the climb out. It will burn into your memory:D
Now the answere to your big question about how long it stays down. NO ONE FREAKIN KNOWS :rofl It's a percent thing man. Percentage hit = percentage down time. It is next to impossible to total a City and a or all factories at the same time. Remember there is a built in auto regain. You can never stop those road convoys, trains and barges. You can me assured you will extend enemy field strat regain considerably forcing the badies to take guys of the front to run supplies if they need a certain fields strat up. :aok
Without resupplying they are denied resources and if you see a field regain way to soon you needn't be Sherlock to figure out where they are going next.
Proof of the pudding. When the enemies strat is fully 100% everything, go bomb an enemy barracks. Time it and 30 min (real time) that barracks is up. Now go bomb the living flookzoids outta training factory then whack that same barracks. Time it mate. It can be anything from 45 min to 90 min depending on Strat % not withstanding pesky resupliers.
Have fun keep your alt and never mind the name calling:noid
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I had seen several comments on Ch 200 that the strat system has been porked. Is this not true? Does the strategic system still work as designed?
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Eh, that's just the furballers screaming, not like it's the opinion of anyone that really matters. ;)
Count me with the go-for-its. The MA could use more strat guys.
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
I had seen several comments on Ch 200 that the strat system has been porked. Is this not true? Does the strategic system still work as designed?
Ok channel 200 is the all countries channel...riiight !!. You expect the enemy to say their Strat is porked ?:lol Right click an enemy base and it tells you field strat and country strat. Keep an eye on country strat when it's been hit. You will see.:O
Granted that the strat system has changed from what it once was but it's still porkable weather field ot factory. It's just different to what it was is all. Thats what these "200" guys where prolly on about if they were genuin.
Remember the time when you could hit fuel on a base and the enemy could only up with 25%. The furballers used to be :furious ....:rofl
Not that it's worth earning bomber perks unless your a 234 CV sinker but certain factories yeild more perks and points than others. The most under porked factory is the fuel factory. Thats because 99% of folk DON'T see the point...... :huh
Get ya thinking caps outs. Every piece of strat has a perpose and a way to exploit it's demise. Don't listen to those that can't be arsed to do. Listen to those that have:aok
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I agree 100% with LYNX! Strats are important and can play a pivotal role in the MA.
The City Strat is the funnel through which all other Strats must pass. If you choke off the City Strat, level it to less than 50% even though all other Strats are at 100%, you will slow down the supply chain.
Now, couple the crippling of the City Strat with decimation of the other Strats and you begin to cause the FIELD strats (those barracks, acks, fuels, troops, etc. located on an airfield) to begin longer rebuild times.
Remember, though, that Barges, Convoys, and Trains do resupply BOTH field and Strat targets and hitting them also can delay rebuild times locally.
And, an interprising pilot can also resuppy STRAT targets by flying supplies to it via C-47, or on the ground via M-3.
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Guys. If you want to put so much effort into hitting strats, and you know you can't make the enemy feel the effects if you don't have enough bombers to do the job in a short time frame, why even bother to hit the strats?
Really, Just take all the guys you would normally use to do the strat hits, get into a coordinated raid and kill and capture the zone master base. Then your enemy is INSTANTLY crippled with zero automatic resupplies.
After that, you can bomb them all to heck and really make them suffer.
It's not like the old days when squads used to fly joint strikes against the city and several factories at once. I remember the Cites used to get leveled, followed shortly thereafter by AAA and Fuel factories. After that, once you killed stuff on a field, it could be down upwards of three hours.
Oh the Pain!
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ummm....guys... I KNOW HOW TO CHECK STRATS! LOL
no..seriuosly i meant to say. I had heard many many times that the Strategic system in the MA doesnt work properly as designed. Like broken.
But now i think i see that its just mear opinion as to whether its properly modled.
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Once you have porked front and secondary line troops and supplies.......go deep and pork the grunt training and cities.
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We need much more indepth strateegery that will require every strateegereesta player to cooperate and hit a tiny portion of any particular map.
It should require lots of players to accomplish anything strateegeristically and it should take a long, long, long time to do it. Misshuns should be 12 hours long, counting takeoff and form up for instance. A successful stateegeristical misshun should award 7000 perks in all categories to each strateegereesta participating and the arena should stop for 3 mintues while the monitor screen is filled with beautiful fireworks and patriotic music while an announcer voice-overs how some chess-piece country has "won the war". Oh, yeah... grand titles should be awarded too. Grand Poobah's of the night should get their name in the MOTD or something.
After that, everything returns to normal so another major strateegeristical misshun can be planned and executed.
That way all the strateegereestas will be off in one corner bombing and strafing toolsheds and the normal people that play for air combat can enjoy the real game.
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Originally posted by Toad
We need much more indepth strateegery that will require every strateegereesta player to cooperate and hit a tiny portion of any particular map.
It should require lots of players to accomplish anything strateegeristically and it should take a long, long, long time to do it. Misshuns should be 12 hours long, counting takeoff and form up for instance. A successful stateegeristical misshun should award 7000 perks in all categories to each strateegereesta participating and the arena should stop for 3 mintues while the monitor screen is filled with beautiful fireworks and patriotic music while an announcer voice-overs how some chess-piece country has "won the war". Oh, yeah... grand titles should be awarded too. Grand Poobah's of the night should get their name in the MOTD or something.
After that, everything returns to normal so another major strateegeristical misshun can be planned and executed.
That way all the strateegereestas will be off in one corner bombing and strafing toolsheds and the normal people that play for air combat can enjoy the real game.
That's it? That's all you have to offer? And yet you still took the time to type all of that out?
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Allow me to add that I "Thank Cod for TOD!"
I hope TOD or CT as it is now named, will be compellingly addictive to all strateegereestas. I hope that those crying out for Strateegery will spend 24/7 glued to their joysticks playing CT till death do they part from their 'puter.
May the search for rank, glory and ticker-tape "We won the WAR!" parades so consume them that they forsake the MA forever and ever.
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"Amen".
Forgot that part.
In fact, I'm going to go sacrifice a bucket of KFC to JoBu right now!
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Originally posted by Toad
Allow me to add that I "Thank Cod for TOD!"
I hope TOD or CT as it is now named, will be compellingly addictive to all strateegereestas.
I think CT will be for fitter pee-alots.........
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Boy the air quake guys sure get upset if somebody, in this case a new guy, asks about doing something in the game besides being a easy target for them. Must interfere with getting their name in lights. Sheese........
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Originally posted by Toad
Allow me to add that I "Thank Cod for TOD!"
I hope TOD or CT as it is now named, will be compellingly addictive to all strateegereestas. I hope that those crying out for Strateegery will spend 24/7 glued to their joysticks playing CT till death do they part from their 'puter.
May the search for rank, glory and ticker-tape "We won the WAR!" parades so consume them that they forsake the MA forever and ever.
I really wish you could have graced us with more wisdom however your comments, opinions and vast knowlegde of the substance of this thread have been greatfully noted.
Having checked the score system I see your skills as a fighter pilot makes us feel almost unworthy of your input. A fighter pilot with a hit percent of 3.77% makes us sprey oops I mean prey for your fighter escort skills. Also your attack hit percent is impressive with 160%. You could clear up the tiny oil tank in town that we may miss. We could also rest assured that you wouldn't give up becuase out of 58 sorties you killed 56 guys, only dying 43 times with an impressive 13 landings.
Our strategic battles with sheds will live long as you have the enemy "Quaking" in their boots. When the bad guys learn of your impressive rank (2664) ACM and gunnery they'll leave us defencless tool sheaders alone to take on the mighty fighter pilot known as "Toad"
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LOLH Ly-el and Lynx, You guys a little sensative LOLHROTFF :lol :lol :rofl
It's not like the old days when squads used to fly joint strikes against the city and several factories at once. I remember the Cites used to get leveled, followed shortly thereafter by AAA and Fuel factories. After that, once you killed stuff on a field, it could be down upwards of three hours.
Honestly, what kind of gameplay is the above. A field taken off the map for 3 hours... That is not game play that is game stagnation.
I say put an untouchable furball town somewhere on each map so it doesn't interfere with the "WAR" and you could bring back any kind of game stopping, stomp the opposition into submission, horde rolling juggernaught of zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzs all over the rest of the map.
I am in total agreeance with you Toad! I pray CT will draw all the WAR guys into it and the MA will go back to the early days of AH. Where the men were men and the toolshedders were still waitn for the toolsheds to be written. LOLH :rofl
Ohh BTW radishcat, take Toad to the DA some time and he'll show you how much score means. LOLHROTFF :lol :lol :rofl :rofl
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Since Aces High 2, I havent ever seen a field below 100% fuel. I think it can be brought down to 75%...but Im not sure.
What's been traded in tho is people porking ordinance in cannon birds, so on any given night, along the front...ordinance is usually gone for quite some time. In Aces High 1, the norm was to see fuels porked to 25%. While it affected most fighters, bombers can go quite far on 25% and since ordinance was up, they could up.
I'm sooo hoping strat gets sorted out sometime.
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Originally posted by mars01
LOLH Ly-el and Lynx, You guys a little sensative LOLHROTFF :lol :lol :rofl
Honestly, what kind of gameplay is the above. A field taken off the map for 3 hours... That is not game play that is game stagnation.
I say put an untouchable furball town somewhere on each map so it doesn't interfere with the "WAR" and you could bring back any kind of game stopping, stomp the opposition into submission, horde rolling juggernaught of zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzs all over the rest of the map.
I am in total agreeance with you Toad! I pray CT will draw all the WAR guys into it and the MA will go back to the early days of AH. Where the men were men and the toolshedders were still waitn for the toolsheds to be written. LOLH :rofl
Ohh BTW radishcat, take Toad to the DA some time and he'll show you how much score means. LOLHROTFF :lol :lol :rofl :rofl
I don't mean to hi-jack SLIMEY-J thread but ...really!
Slimey-J asked a question and he was getting proper responses. Your good bud comes in with Jack-****. Furballer toolsheder blah blah lame old same old.
Is the above a classic case of you not reading all the replies to this thread? Also, I don't like the idea of the miss quote. You have my name to somone elses quote. A quote you clearly have missunderstud in the first instance.
This thread has nothing to with rank. When you read it you'll see it's about todays strat system ... how?...why? ....how long? No one has mentioned furabllers, toolsheders except you and your good bud. It's a free speach forum but if your good bud wants to make such comments it would be honourable to be at least qualified in his field. His statistics prove otherwise. A fighter hit percent of 3.77. Whats that about? Missing, spreying or secret toolsheding in his favoured ride the Lgay7. Or is it one of those guys that holds the trigger open spinning to his death in a decapitated plain with a vain hope he may hit something.
You make a comment I agree with which is the fighter town idea. We have one such map with this on it but it keeps getting reset. It seems you and your good buds don't protect your flank.:rolleyes:
Sensativity... umm pot kettle black me ol chocky bar:rofl
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My fighter hit % is only around 4% because I strafe ground targets if there's nothing in the air to shoot at (it's about 50% in attack sorties which seperates out shots fired at air and ground targets).
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Yeah, I strafed some towns. Nothing else to do in this game when some Toolshedder takes down the fighter hangars and ends the fight.
I admit I'm no good at score in this game. I just fly to have fun.
This game was at it's very peak of fun towards the end of the beta. After that continual "additions" were made to mollify the toolshed contingent and the fun meter slowly dropped in lock step.
Now you've got this soggy mess of a main where hordes run around flattening toolsheds and running with wet knickers from any potential fight.
You bet I fly the La-7. Whenever it becomes obvious that the runaway crowd is populating the arena, you need something to catch them. You'll find an awful lot of F4F and FM2 flights in my logbook though. Probably those more than anything else although I once flew the C205 an awful lot too. Problem is you just can't catch the runners in those... and there's so many that run from a fight even when they have the advantage in performance and alt.
Lastly... landing. Vastly overrated in my opinion. Fight till you run out of bullets or gas then either die or auger to get a new plane quickly. All that drilling around back and forth to fields is boring.
There's only one point in playing these games: to shoot at someone. The rest of it is dross.
The fight's the thing.
The fight's the ONLY thing.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled strat whining.
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The only one I see whining about strat is you Toad.... Everyone else seems to be simply discussing it or answering questions. You seem to be the only one bringing anything derogatory into this thread that has been up untill you came into it a good conversation about strat and the changes that have happened to it be they good or bad.
So please stop trying to make this into some sort of toolshedder VS furballer thread and let us answer the new guys question about how strat works.
Thank You.
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Hey Lynx go get yourself a cup of...
Lighten UP!
This thread has nothing to with rank.
So why are you the first one to bring it up, twice for that matter.
Your good bud comes in with Jack-****. Furballer toolsheder blah blah lame old same old.
Socks, killing troops may slow the enemy from taking bases, but it does nothing to stop the endless Air-Quake furball.
IT's comments like this, while not very inflamitory but definately weak in substance that invites furballers to threads like this.
Endless Furballs. While I like Midnight and his cadre, I rarely see them down in the weeds in a furball. Most of the time I run into them they are cherrying in from their perch and while they may be good at that, it is not furballing.
So when midnight speaks of endless furballs I have to think he doesn't really know what a furball is, since I haven't seen endless furballs since before the "Win the War" update.
Also, I don't like the idea of the miss quote. You have my name to somone elses quote. A quote you clearly have missunderstud in the first instance.
"Your so vain, you probly think this quote is about you, don't you, don't you ohh woa woa ohh oh."
It is you who does not understand. I don't have your name anywhere near that quote nor was I talking to you after my first sentence.
And what don't I understand about midnights orignial quote? What part of a field being down for three hours don't you get about it being bad for Game Play and the arena?
This game is about pitting people against each other in combat, not restricting them from fighting. When you start doing things that stop the fighting you are missing the point.
Toad is totally correct in hoping CT will get all you guys out of the MA and into the CT where Strat will be the end all and be all and the MA can finally get bacl to AtoA combat where it started.
I will be thrilled for you guys and hope you get a strat game that goes beyond your wildest dreams and takes you guys out of ***** up every decent fight that starts in the MA.
Toad made some honest statements about the current strat game. You got your panties in a bunch and went off half cocked on him.
It's a free speach forum but if your good bud wants to make such comments it would be honourable to be at least qualified in his field.
Toad is more than qualified to talk on AtoA as well as Strat. I'd bet all my perks he'd spank you in both areas.
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Originally posted by mars01
This game is about pitting people against each other in combat, not restricting them from fighting. When you start doing things that stop the fighting you are missing the point.
Can you point me to a quote or a source for this statement? Or are you just making that up and hoping folks will believe you? I was under the impression that the game was a simulation of WWII aviation. I haven’t read anywhere that the game was designed only to host furballs and dogfights. In fact, if the dev’s saw to it to go through the trouble of coding a strat system, I would guess they are designing the game to be something more than just airplane deathmatch.
What I don’t get is why the dedicated dogfighters feel so threatened by a strat system? You come into this thread with your sarcasm and mockery, and then get upset when someone throws it back at you.
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"What I don�t get is why the dedicated dogfighters feel so threatened by a strat system?"
You must be new here and to MMP online flight sim/games in general or someone who's just registered under a new ID to troll.
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This game is about pitting people against each other in combat, not restricting them from fighting. When you start doing things that stop the fighting you are missing the point.
More than one form of combat. You seem to think Air Quake is the be all end all because that is what you like. If you are afraid a bomber will knock out a FH...kill it. Instead of looking for another dweeb fighter to dust.
Westy You must be new here and to MMP online flight sim/games in general or someone who's just registered under a new ID to troll.
Ya think? Did you read his first post that this topic is about. Or was it just a twitch reaction to the word Strat?
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Originally posted by Westy
"What I don't get is why the dedicated dogfighters feel so threatened by a strat system?"
You must be new here and to MMP online flight sim/games in general or someone who's just registered under a new ID to troll.
I am relatively new. But, how is that considered trolling? Judging from the responses from Toad and company, it certainly seems that they're afraid of a strat system, does it not?
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They're not afraid of a strat system. the problem is the dweebs that use use and abuse it.
"Strat" in AH has put serious gameplay-effecting power into the hands of the few. For example one player can easily ruin the dogfighting enjoyment of many.
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Originally posted by mars01
Hey Lynx go get yourself a cup of...
Lighten UP!
So why are you the first one to bring it up, twice for that matter.
IT's comments like this, while not very inflamitory but definately weak in substance that invites furballers to threads like this.
Endless Furballs. While I like Midnight and his cadre, I rarely see them down in the weeds in a furball. Most of the time I run into them they are cherrying in from their perch and while they may be good at that, it is not furballing.
So when midnight speaks of endless furballs I have to think he doesn't really know what a furball is, since I haven't seen endless furballs since before the "Win the War" update.
"Your so vain, you probly think this quote is about you, don't you, don't you ohh woa woa ohh oh."
It is you who does not understand. I don't have your name anywhere near that quote nor was I talking to you after my first sentence.
And what don't I understand about midnights orignial quote? What part of a field being down for three hours don't you get about it being bad for Game Play and the arena?
This game is about pitting people against each other in combat, not restricting them from fighting. When you start doing things that stop the fighting you are missing the point.
Toad is totally correct in hoping CT will get all you guys out of the MA and into the CT where Strat will be the end all and be all and the MA can finally get bacl to AtoA combat where it started.
I will be thrilled for you guys and hope you get a strat game that goes beyond your wildest dreams and takes you guys out of ***** up every decent fight that starts in the MA.
Toad made some honest statements about the current strat game. You got your panties in a bunch and went off half cocked on him.
Toad is more than qualified to talk on AtoA as well as Strat. I'd bet all my perks he'd spank you in both areas.
You done gone an done it again. Or as I would prefer to say in plain and understandable English. You have miss quoted yet again. Perhaps it's "my bad" if I missunderstand that a guys name followed by a quote is to be taken as the quote by the said named. Or to define in another way. You have my name followed by quotations. Infering to the reader that the substance of the quote was indeed submitted by the prefixed name. It would be err cool if you could correct that in your following posts.
Mars01 post 2733 with reference to rank
So why are you the first one to bring it up, twice for that matter.
I didn't is the simple answere. I mentioned Strat bombing helps rank in a reply to slimey-J. Perhaps you have been befuddled my the word "Statistics", in a reply to Toad.
Mars01 post 2733
And what don't I understand about midnights orignial quote? What part of a field being down for three hours don't you get about it being bad for Game Play and the arena?
The part about it being outdated by over a year. The part about it being irrelavent as part of your arguement / opinion to game play today. Midnight did say or words to the effect " there used to be a time when".
Here's something for you to ponder over!........In todays strat system when a toolsheder porks a field generally it only affects other toolsheders or "win the war types". In plain understandable words YOU, as furballer, are hardly affected. You don't carry bombs and you don't use troops. The only possible infringments to you as a furballer is 1) Lack of dar but not the dar bar. 2) On the odd occasion your fuel is reduced to 75%. Now if your going to tell me 75% effects so and so plane I'll show another plane that it doesn't. If your going to argue that it stops the offensive furball ,if there is such a thing, I'll argue about the fat, slow, loaded, lumbering porker not being shot down. Same goes for the Uber porker that we have whizzing around these days.
Something else I better point out before you go off on one. This thread is about "STRAT" bombing. Hanger bombing is done to death in loads of other threads.
Mars01 post 2733
Toad is more than qualified to talk on AtoA as well as Strat. I'd bet all my perks he'd spank you in both areas.
I don't need your perks mate I got over 17,000 of um, in one form or another.:rolleyes:
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I just have to wonder if the term "Air Quake" comes about simply
because the users are so poor at it. Of course, you might feel that
it's more difficult to spray loads of bombs at non-moving targets then
it is to ACM. :rolleyes:
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I'm only semi-new (playing since November) but I've noticed the Furballers are the most viciously defensive crowd in here. Whenever I've seen an idea on the Wishlist board that would be of benefit to strategy and base capture, inevitably you'll have about 50 posts with some variation of "NO NO NO NO NO THAT WILL KILL THE FITEZ!!!!"
And of course, the furballers are VERY quick to make and support any suggestion that will make things HARDER on strat and base taking as it already is (which that in my experience so far is ALREADY the hardest thing to do in the game).
God forbid the furballers realize that if they COORDINATE their efforts with the base takers (furball until cap established and fh's knocked out, then move on to the next field. Lather, rinse, repeat) it allows EVERYONE to have fun.
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Originally posted by Westy
They're not afraid of a strat system. the problem is the dweebs that use use and abuse it.
"Strat" in AH has put serious gameplay-effecting power into the hands of the few. For example one player can easily ruin the dogfighting enjoyment of many.
Can you give me an example of a situation in which one player easily ruined the dogfighting enjoyment of many?
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Easily!
Go to the search function, enter the word "toolshed." choose the General Discussion forum and you'll quickly get back five pages of discussions. going back to 2001, on this issue with more examples of it than I can count - or want to bring to your attention for you.
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Y'know, furballing and NASCAR have a lot in common. They both have an overwhelming number of fans, but when you get right down to it, it's really only a bunch of guys driving around in circles.
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Lynx are tou female? Cause you argue like one.
You didn't type this????
Having checked the score system I see your skills as a fighter pilot makes us feel almost unworthy of your input. A fighter pilot with a hit percent of 3.77% makes us sprey oops I mean prey for your fighter escort skills. Also your attack hit percent is impressive with 160%. You could clear up the tiny oil tank in town that we may miss. We could also rest assured that you wouldn't give up becuase out of 58 sorties you killed 56 guys, only dying 43 times with an impressive 13 landings.
Hmm, because it certainly looks like this is the first place anyone started talking about stats and score. You know the more I talk to you the more Something is starting to smell like tuna.
You done gone an done it again. Or as I would prefer to say in plain and understandable English. You have miss quoted yet again. Perhaps it's "my bad" if I missunderstand that a guys name followed by a quote is to be taken as the quote by the said named. Or to define in another way. You have my name followed by quotations. Infering to the reader that the substance of the quote was indeed submitted by the prefixed name. It would be err cool if you could correct that in your following posts.
Anyone reading the posts knows who said what. It is so obvious that it doesn't need a road map to understand. If your too re____ed to figure out a post maybe you should stop reading them. You need a friggin protocol just to establish context. How about your brain :rolleyes:
The part about it being outdated by over a year. The part about it being irrelavent as part of your arguement / opinion to game play today. Midnight did say or words to the effect " there used to be a time when".
OMG LOLH. can you pick any other meainingless parts of that quote. Who cares when it was, the fact is his context is that in the glory days of AHI the strat could knock a field down for 3 hours. Any person that thinks that is a good thing should fly off line. LOLH
OMG Do you have any clue about this game? !........In todays strat system when a toolsheder porks a field generally it only affects other toolsheders or "win the war types". In plain understandable words YOU, as furballer, are hardly affected.
Drop the FHrs where the fight is and who are you *****...? I'll let you think about that for a while.......:rolleyes:
Ok, ok don't start crying. Shhhhhh, come here...I'll give you a hint... (Mars looks both ways to make sure cost is clear and we are alone)... "It's not the Bombers or the GVs" Bwaaahahahahaha LOLH.
If your going to argue that it stops the offensive furball ,if there is such a thing, I'll argue about the fat, slow, loaded, lumbering porker not being shot down. Same goes for the Uber porker that we have whizzing around these days.
By your comments alone, it is obviouse you have no idea what makes or happens in a furball.
Offensive Furball hahaha There is no offensive or defensive to a furball. Once one side pushes toward the others base with any effectiveness, the furball is over and it turns into a horde vulch fest.
Only on the rare occasion do we get a furball that just exists between two bases where guys don't have to worry about morons dropping hangers or maroons just flying over looking for one vulch and then death.
Why would any of us looking for good fights want to chase some dive and run tool ...shedder. You guys aren't even worth the effort, especially when you would rather be fighting someone that can.
I don't need your perks mate I got over 17,000 of um, in one form or another.
Nice dodging the point.
For all the reading impaired... If you cant figure it out, I am done adressing Lynz and now moving on to Saxman.. LOLH :rofl
And of course, the furballers are VERY quick to make and support any suggestion that will make things HARDER on strat and base taking as it already is (which that in my experience so far is ALREADY the hardest thing to do in the game).
We'll sax having all the knowledge of anyone that addmittingly said they have only been here since Nov. Do you think you may have it all wrong?
What is hard about base taking? How easy can it get. Hmm Assign guys to VH and Fighter hangers, assign guys to town, drive a goon. If your any good at it at all, you'll send guys to deack and cap, guys to drop VH and Guys to Town. Ohh so hard. As slap says - MAW101God forbid the furballers realize that if they COORDINATE their efforts with the base takers (furball until cap established and fh's knocked out, then move on to the next field. Lather, rinse, repeat) it allows EVERYONE to have fun.
Yeah, I've seen the great organised raids, you maroons fly the horde over, drop the FHrs, leave the VH and then start asking... "Duh did anybody bring a goon? duhhh which way did he go george." So here are all the guys that want to fight flying around in circles wishing the were 50 fighters upping instead of Flak Panzers LOLH Yes God Forbid. hahahaha
Im not a big NASCAR fan but it is obvious that you don't know much about either.
Y'know, furballing and NASCAR have a lot in common. They both have an overwhelming number of fans, but when you get right down to it, it's really only a bunch of guys driving around in circles.
As I have said time and time again. Put 3 untouchable fields somewhere that it doesn't affect teh war and you guys can have any little strat system you want and I would be thrilled for both of us.
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There's only one point in playing these games: to shoot at someone. The rest of it is dross. The fight's the thing. The fight's the ONLY thing.
If this is ture... Why does HiTech say the game is about...
Capturing territory through the use of air, land and sea power is the objective of Aces High.
Looks to me like the guys who made Aceshigh had other plans for the game....
Feel free to read about AH gameplay here...
Aceshigh gameplay... (http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/map.html)
CAVALRY
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"What is hard about base taking? How easy can it get. Hmm Assign guys to VH and Fighter hangers, assign guys to town, drive a goon. If your any good at it at all, you'll send guys to deack and cap, guys to drop VH and Guys to Town. Ohh so hard."
Well, you've already hinted at the first part. Three fighters and a Goon can't take a defended base. Everyone has to be clear about what's going on, who's taking what and hitting what. Who's bringing the ords? Who's riding shotgun? Who's got the troops? That part ALONE is one of the biggest challenges.
That's not even THINKING about base defenses. Of the base captures I've been on, RARELY has it been successful when the enemy's had guys in the air to defend. Meaning you've got to get that field capped. ONE fighter making it off the ground and finding the goon, (did that the other night, actually) or getting enough of the troops, is enough to screw the whole operation (have seen THAT happen many times). One Flak or M-16 sneaking through cover into the town can blow a whole fight. New fighters coming in from other bases can break a cap, so frequently somone needs to get the attention of nearby fields. That's any number of opportunities for a capture to be distrupted, and I haven't touched on porkrunners knocking out ords or troops of any bases in range.
And then you only have a small window of opportunity. Even if the Goon is rolling well before the target is prepped, Ack, VHs, FHs, fuel and the town only stays down for so long and it takes time to get drunks to the field. That's something ELSE I've seen happen with base captures (most of the time I'm flying escort/superiority so I've participated in quite a few). Troops are in town, up pops the ack or some building and all that work is shot.
So wow, yeah, that's REAL easy. Makes one wonder how base captures fail at all. At least in a furball you can largely control your own fate. That's a LOT riding on the team, the enemy, and just plain luck.
"Yeah, I've seen the great organised raids, you maroons fly the horde over, drop the FHrs, leave the VH and then start asking... "Duh did anybody bring a goon? duhhh which way did he go george." So here are all the guys that want to fight flying around in circles wishing the were 50 fighters upping instead of Flak Panzers LOLH Yes God Forbid. hahahaha"
Well that's not a "great organized raid," then, is it? Otherwise the guy in charge would've thought of that and made sure there WAS a Goon. Oh, and btw, most guys I fly with on captures--especially the ones that are successful--kill the VH first. Actually, most guys prefer to keep the fh's intact so the base can be used right away to take on the next one (I'd rather nail them both, but that's just me).
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While I understand both points of view , and lean to oneside hard , Base capture IS part of the game. WAIT !!!!! DONT FLAME YET!!!!! I said 1 part.
Furballing and just plain ole mindless fighting is another.
Gosh this topic has been hammered to death.
The ORIGINAL questions was about strat.
To that I am not sure , but it seems like Strat Targets can effect the overall enemy stuff. To what extent anymore I am not sure.
Furballs happen. They are fun for certain types of players. In answer to an earlier question , YES 1 person CAN ruin the fun for 20 in just the time it takes to open the door and let the bombs drop from 18k B-24's on a small base and BOOOOOM no FH's anymore. Seen it happen a hundred times.
That person is doing his part to help his team. BUT , is it that or just being a butthead and killing them for no reason. I've seen it both ways. Someone really is trying to help take base they thought was the next in line.
I've seen the Buff Dood Elite fly in , and destroy hangars and the brag cause he killed the fun. That happens alot. Don't think so? Watch FT on the Donut map.
Knights , Rooks and Bish Buff Elite driver dood extrordinare MUST kill the FH's of the others. FOR NO REASON.
Coordination? I see mission after mission posted. 2 kinds of fighters , both jabo types , that aren't really great for cap IMO and 3 different types of BUFFS , 2 goons. Off they go on the Base Capture raid of all raids. Only to have it busted by a small cap and 2 LA&'s goon hunters. They all get mad , pout , yell at one another cause the goon died. All of the sudden that BIG raid is now nothing more than a couple left trying to take a base only to have the other side turn the tables and take the base they were upiing from.
HAPPENS EVERYDAYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hordes rule base capture. And that is ALL sides. Knights included. (Thats who I fly for and GEEEESH its like a monkey having sex with a football most times)
I dont participate in base capture very often at all for this very reason. IF...and that is a HUGE if , there were a types os COORDINATED ATTACK. Lots of fighters , Lots of Buffs , Lots of troops. HORDE yes , and they could do it for a couple or 3 hours , I think every map could get reset in no time.
Wont happen....but thats JUST my opinion.
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Ok Mars me ol mucker. It seems your having a little problem following things as I've already repied to most of your last post. Also your tone is, in frustration I would imagine, becoming a tad unsavoury but what the hey. If you've lost the plot with the thread how could I expect you to keep rational. So, if we're being informal, so's to speak. May i invite you to get a coffee, pull up a chair and keep a brown papper bag handy for the hyperventilation.
With response to your latest post 2734 You are suffering from selective reading. It's very handy how you chose to ignore these statments I made.
!........In todays strat system when a toolsheder porks a field generally it only affects other toolsheders or "win the war types". In plain understandable words YOU, as furballer, are hardly affected. You don't carry bombs and you don't use troops. The only possible infringments to you as a furballer is 1) Lack of dar but not the dar bar. 2) On the odd occasion your fuel is reduced to 75%. Now if your going to tell me 75% effects so and so plane I'll show another plane that it doesn't. If your going to argue that it stops the offensive furball ,if there is such a thing, I'll argue about the fat, slow, loaded, lumbering porker not being shot down. Same goes for the Uber porker that we have whizzing around these days.
Something else I better point out before you go off on one. This thread is about "STRAT" bombing. Hanger bombing is done to death in loads of other threads.
The above is where I pre-empted your probable reply but nooo. You have to go and ignore it. Ride on by and pop off with the furballers number 1 whine, which I have to point out again was never mentioned by the Strat guys. Not only "selective" but incapable of anything original. You came back with this
Drop the FHrs where the fight is and who are you *****...? I'll let you think about that for a while....... Ok, ok don't start crying. Shhhhhh, come here...I'll give you a hint... (Mars looks both ways to make sure cost is clear and we are alone)... "It's not the Bombers or the GVs" Bwaaahahahahaha LOLH.
So for the second time.......In all the "STRAT" replies to the thread no one talked about hitting hangers. Well, actually, Toad mentioned it but that wasn't a "strat" reply. May I ask? Do you understand what "porking" referes to in AH? You seem to be at best blurring hanger banging with porking or at worst deliberatly ignoring aspects to bolster your feeble brief.
You clearly are befuddled. Another example of being undone is as follows.
And what don't I understand about midnights orignial quote? What part of a field being down for three hours don't you get about it being bad for Game Play and the arena? I replied
The part about it being outdated by over a year. The part about it being irrelavent as part of your arguement / opinion to game play today. Midnight did say or words to the effect " there used to be a time when".
OMG LOLH. can you pick any other meainingless parts of that quote. Who cares when it was, the fact is his context is that in the glory days of AHI the strat could knock a field down for 3 hours. Any person that thinks that is a good thing should fly off line. LOLH
Now lets see here .."can you pick any other meaningless parts of that quote"..... Jack prettythang. Dude how many toe's you got left? If it's meaningless why bother typing it let alone using it as any kind of point.
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strat can be shut down on an entire country. It would take a few people to do it, but it can work. For the small maps this would be devistating, because there's far less work to be done.
Pork the factories, then pork field strat. If you really want to get crazy you can kill the trains to stop the factories from being resuplied which will slow down things even more.
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Of course, then you get to be shredded by the Chattanooga Choo-Choo of Death.
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As I have said time and time again. Put 3 untouchable fields somewhere that it doesn't affect teh war and you guys can have any little strat system you want and I would be thrilled for both of us.
In all seriousness, isn't this the point of the dueling arena? Never been in there myself, but it seems that would be the logical place where furballers could furball to their heart's content and let the strat guys / win-the-war types have the MA. After all, the MA was designed for that purpose.
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OMG LOLH you are good for a laugh Lynx even tho you are such a maroon. You are like some other guys I know that type alot and say nothing. I'm not frustrated, just dumbfounded at how you dodge points, talk in circles, and lie about saying things. Like it's not in bold type.
You said you never mentioned score or stats, but look at your prior post and oh there you are talking about stats and scores as if they are a measure of anything.
You said pork a field, but now all you want to do is really talk about troops and ammo and fuel. Hmmm Nice try. Porking woudl be rendering a field useless. Are FH not strategic targets? If not then why do you maroons always drop them first? Again nice try LOLH.
AS for the rest of your circling nonsense...
LOLH you are like arguing with Beetle or Zazen. You don't have a clue, can't put together a good rational arguement to save you life so you just type gibberish till anyone with half a brain tires of you.
For the last time,Now lets see here .."can you pick any other meaningless parts of that quote"..... Jack prettythang.
Awe whats a matter Lynx getting a little disturbed bwahahahhaa lolhay.
It's not like the old days when squads used to fly joint strikes against the city and several factories at once. I remember the Cites used to get leveled, followed shortly thereafter by AAA and Fuel factories. After that, once you killed stuff on a field, it could be down upwards of three hours.
My point taken from Midnights quote above, is that at no time now or in the past is a strat system good if it can render fields porked for 3 hours. Try and let that sink in before you pull your foot out of your pie hole LOLHAYROTFF. HAHAHA. If you still don't get it you are hopless. I can't make it any more simple for you there chumply LOLH.
For reading impaired, I am now addressing RedTop.
I agree Red, good post.
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With all due respect, Mars, you are mistaken.
In every instance I have ever heard anyone in the MA talk about "porking" a field, it has meant to kill #1 Radar #2 Troops #3 Ord. #4 used to be fuel, but since you can't get fuel below 75% anymore, it is often ignored.
"Porking" does not refer to dropping hangers -- that would be to "flatten".
#1 through #4 above are all affected by strategic bombing, which is, after all, the subject of the thread, not flattening hangers.
Hangers are down a set amount of time no matter what you do to destroy strategic targets. Therefore, strat bombing can not and will not harm your furballs. (Even if it was still possible to get fuel down to 25%, all that would mean is that you would have to land your kills more often or take a P-51 instead of a Yak).
Strat bombing will, however, help prevent an opposing country from going on the offensive and taking your bases, and make it more difficult for them to defend against your side's attempt to take their bases.
The original question involved refineries and factories. Hangers did not come into the picture until Toad and you came in and decided to turn this into a furball vs stategic shout match. I will also put some blame on Lynx for taking the bait (not that anyone cares who I "blame", but whatever).
So I hope Slimy-J got all the information he needed early in this thread, because the last half has nothing to do with his question.
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Bravo, 25. :aok
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Well 25 you, lynx and saxman can play the semantic argument if you wish.
Porking a field is just that to me. Porking it. You can call it flattening when you hit some things and porking when you hit other things but in the end it is all the same. I dont speak toolshed speak so save your breath lolh.
Also I did not turn this into a Furb Vs Strat thread. Toad pointed out some true points, Lynx got his panties all wadded up in his mouth, I just came in to help push them down his throat so he could breath again. Thanks I get for saving a guys life. His face was all blue and everything and you guys were just standing around waiting for him to turn another shade. LOLH
You guys get so sensative about this crap and it makes me laugh. I hope CT gives you guys everything your heart desires and you forget all about the MA. :aok
BTW do some searches on why the DA is a poor place to furball. You will get you hearts content. You probably still won't get it, but then no one really expects you to. :aok
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Actually, I've noticed more angry outbursts (and WAY more flaming, case in point) from the furballers whenever strat or tac is mentioned than anything said by MOST of the jabbos and buff drivers (oh yeah, there ARE exceptions, but they're by far the quieter crowd).
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well sax, since you guys are all about semantics... Can you find any here???
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Originally posted by mars01
BTW do some searches on why the DA is a poor place to furball. You will get you hearts content. You probably still won't get it, but then no one really expects you to. :aok [/B]
Then, perhaps you, in your infinite wisdom, could put it into terms we peons could understand...? It seems you (and those that think along the same lines as you) make accusations, but instead of backing them up with examples or facts, you tell us to search for the facts to back up your own arguments. Not that it matters, I guess, since this is all opinion and conjecture anyhow.
One final point, though, is how you seem to think the strat folks are the one's getting worked up and being overly sensitive. Judging from your replies, your constant sarcasm and your overuse of "LOL", I’m willing to bet that it’s you and Toad that are getting worked up over this.
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No, I just sacrifice a chicken to JoBu every day, asking him to make you guys so happy in the CT that you never visit the MA again.
Everyone one will be happy and Jobu will get a bottle of rum. :)
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Then, perhaps you, in your infinite wisdom, could put it into terms we peons could understand...? It seems you (and those that think along the same lines as you) make accusations, but instead of backing them up with examples or facts, you tell us to search for the facts to back up your own arguments. Not that it matters, I guess, since this is all opinion and conjecture anyhow.
No slimy your the newb, you missed the mirriad of post, you search on em and read why the DA sucks for furballing.One final point, though, is how you seem to think the strat folks are the one's getting worked up and being overly sensitive. Judging from your replies, your constant sarcasm and your overuse of "LOL", I’m willing to bet that it’s you and Toad that are getting worked up over this.
WE'll I guess you could assume that, but then yopu would be wrong. If I was mad why would I hide it? Seem stupid to do.
Sorry I do laugh that much at this stuff. I was laughing the whole time I was typing. Nice try for a newb though. You get 2.5 for effort, 1.0 for brains ahhahahahha LOLH. Ohhh look at my frustration and sensativity hahahaha.:rolleyes:
:rofl
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Originally posted by mars01
Sorry I do laugh that much at this stuff. I was laughing the whole time I was typing. Nice try for a newb though. You get 2.5 for effort, 1.0 for brains
Wow... you were "laughing the whole time" you were typing in this relatively sub-par thread... and you give me 1.0 for brains...?
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Originally posted by slimey_J
Can you give me an example of a situation in which one player easily ruined the dogfighting enjoyment of many?
A CV was about 12 miles off the coast. CV launches many fighters. Land base launches a defensive wave. A terrific fight ensues and rages on for 15-20 minutes.
A friendly bomber group is seen flying towards the CV. Many on vox ask the bomber pilot to please spare the CV, but feel free to sink the destroyer first, and then any/all supporting ships but leave the CV up.
Bomber pilot replys ... "You can't tell me what to bomb so go F*** yourself".
30 seconds later ... CV is dead ... fight and the enjoyment of many is ruined.
==========================================
A fight breaks out between two close fields. The fight rages on for quite some time with the advantage waning between both fields, but never was there a chance for a capture.
Lo and behold ... an enemy bomber group comes in and drops all the FHs. Mind you now ... there is absolutly no chance for capture ... too many fighters are already up ... town is completely up ... VHs on both fields are down.
When asked of the Bomber pilot as to why he dropped the FHs ... He replied ... "Too many resources (pilots) were being used in the "furball" and now that the fight is dead ... they can get back to the real task at hand ... capturing bases".
Whoa !!! ... One guy ruins the fun for all those involved in the "furball" because HE decided that too many resources were being used incorrectly.
Well ... EXCUSE F***KING ME !!!
There you have it ... would you like some more scenarios, and can you now understand why people who just want to dogfight have a hair across their bellybutton when it comes to the strateegerist.
Now that I answered your question ... you answer mine ....
Can you give me an example of a situation in which one "furballer" easily ruined the strategic enjoyment of many?
I am so looking forward to your answer.
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How about the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times I or other capture guys have been calling for added fighter support taking a base and everyone was too busy in the not-going-anywhere furball raging in some back-field out of the way off the front area to lend a hand? A lot of captures are busted simply because the enemy has too much air superiority--as I said, in a short time I've been on a LOT of captures where just ONE bandit screwed the pooch by bagging the Goon or shooting up a couple troops. Even ONE extra fighter can make a big difference.
And btw, those buff pilots who roll in to a target "just because" aren't the rule. Most of the guys I usually fly with are FAR more systematic. If they up buffs, then they're doing it to contribute directly to the capture, not just to make things go "Boom."
Don't base your view of a whole class of players on the actions of a few dweebs.
As for the CV, I'm trying to remember a time I've EVER seen guys on the main saying to leave an enemy carrier alone. About every fight I've been in where a CV was present everyone and their mother was calling for alt-monkey buffs to turn it into driftwood.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Can you give me an example of a situation in which one "furballer" easily ruined the strategic enjoyment of many?
I am so looking forward to your answer.
:D Like my dweeby lala taking down 7 goons flying low with their escorts D200 on their 6? :rofl :rofl :rofl
Lets face it. Strategy in this game means huge numbers and diving LANCs
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The noobs posts were much more eloquent and reasoned than the BK diatribe that resulted from the word STRAT
Morp being the only BK posting here to be on topic and provide relevant information and not to attempt to be on a high horse. Which, I must admit, surprised me.
:aok
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Thanks for the examples, slapshot.
I have a hard time agreeing with the point in the first example, though. Every single time I’ve heard communications about an enemy fleet, the first thing most folks try to do is sink the carrier. That seems to be the overriding goal of most attack pilots that I have encountered in that situation. So, it seems a bit disingenuous to expect someone to do otherwise when sinking the carrier is considered standard operating procedures.
In the second example, you’re assuming a whole lot. You’re essentially speaking for every single pilot that was involved in the furball. How do we know that every pilot involved in the fight was just there for the furball? Perhaps a group of them were working to “CAP” the field and/or eliminate the fighter threat so that they could hit an adjacent field without fear of enemy fighters coming in from somewhere else.
Regardless, you’re getting mad at folks for playing the game the way it was obviously designed to be played.
Now, let me say that I never accused the furballers of ruining anything. In fact, I don’t think any of the strat players have been crying about furballers “ruining the game for everyone else”. The crying and fussing seems to only be coming from one side of the debate. But, using your logic, I could answer your question “Can you give me an example of a situation in which one "furballer" easily ruined the strategic enjoyment of many?”
With…
A group of friends decide to up a few formations of bombers to go hit a strat target. They’re all having a jolly time. Then, during their climb-out, they get jumped by a bandit from a nearby furball. The bandit shoots a number of them down and generally ruins the experience of the bomber pilots.
Is this not, essentially, the same thing?
In both situations, you’ve got a “bad guy” who is completely within his rights, playing the game the way he wants to. It just so happens that his way of playing the game doesn’t mesh with the way the other folks want to play the game.
In your example, the furballers now have to up from a different field. In my example, the bombers have to up from a different field and/or restart their whole time-consuming climb-out porcess.
In your example, the furballers were presumably having a good time playing the game the way they wanted to, until a bad apple came along. In my example, the bombers were having a good time, until a bad apple came along.
In your example, one of the fighters could’ve potentially shot down the bomber. In my example, one of the bombers could’ve potentially shot down the fighter.
In your example, the furballers could’ve posted a fighter at a high altitude to prevent the bomber from penetrating. In my example, the bombers could’ve had fighter escorts to prevent the enemy attack.
Yes, there are some differences in your scenario vs mine, but the gist of it is – someone doesn’t “play along” with the others, and so the group must alter their playing style.
Or, as has already been pointed out, what about the lone fighter who shoots down the goon after a perfectly executed mission? I guess you could say that he’s just doing what fighters do… but then, the bomber in your scenario was just doing what bombers do.
Of course, this is pretty useless to debate, since I’m guessing most strat players accept the fact that they’re going to run into furballers who are going to force them to alter their playing style. It seems to be the furballers who refuse to alter their style.
If the fighters want to only fight, can they not go into the DA? If the bombers want to only bomb, can they not go into the TA? Yet, everyone continues to play in the MA…
Anyhow, I appreciate the helpful response of those folks who actually tried to answer my initial questions. Thanks all.
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Originally posted by slimey_J
In the second example, you’re assuming a whole lot. You’re essentially speaking for every single pilot that was involved in the furball. How do we know that every pilot involved in the fight was just there for the furball? Perhaps a group of them were working to “CAP” the field and/or eliminate the fighter threat so that they could hit an adjacent field without fear of enemy fighters coming in from somewhere else.
If that was the case, they would come in high, fly over the furbal, and auger on the FHs. There is no way in hell they would ever be found in a fight between fields.
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This arguement goes back many moons. Back to the days of Air Warriors and War Birds. Back then, it was about the fight. People wanting to fight other people in fighters. Granted bombing and war winning was still around but almost everyone knew how to fight. I'd say roughly 75% of the guys flying back then were "furballers". As time went by AH came out. In the beginning it was much like AW and WB before it, it was still about the fight. Over those years though for various reason the old guard slowly started leaving and also HTC had great success bringing in more and more costumers. A shift slowly started to occur and winning the war became the main objective. I think this shift was caused by the 2 previous stated reasons. Without the "vets" around and the overwhelming influx of new comers, there was no one to pass on the knowledge and the history of the game(s). I think many of us "furballers" see this and it's sad to see. From my veiw point the days of the mindless fun are gone. Now it's all about winning a war that won't end with mob strategy. The guys that just want to fight are now the outsiders that are told to go away even though most of them have been playing this game and others long before most of the new breed even heard of AH.
The only real thing I'll put on a specific persons is this:
Slimey, you never hear the war winners cry about furballer is because as Slap said, we can't mess up "your" fun. We just want to fight. The only time we will see us interact with the war winners is if our chess peice is down to a few bases and we don't have a choice to get away from it.
Saxman here's a direct qoute from you:
How about the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times I or other capture guys have been calling for added fighter support taking a base and everyone was too busy in the not-going-anywhere furball raging in some back-field out of the way off the front area to lend a hand? A lot of captures are busted simply because the enemy has too much air superiority
This statement right here is exactly what sets us off. Why should we be forced to come help in something we don't want to do? If this helps, just pretend we're not even there. And wrap your mind around this one... who do you think we are fighting at our "mindless" furball? The bad guy! WE ARE HELPING. We are tying up people in a different location who would otherwise just follow us down to where ever it is you want us and it would all be for not anyways.
Sax I was new once too. I sucked in a fighter(still not that good) and once I came to realize learning to be a good fighter wasn't easy I quickly got discouraged and joined the mission/bomber guys. Luckily for me I kept going into the TA for lessons and met one of the "old school" players. From then on I flew and crashed and died a lot, but I had a lot of fun doing it and now I find bombing and such very boring. If you'd like, I'll teach you some fighter stuff. Just let me know.
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Originally posted by Saxman
How about the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times I or other capture guys have been calling for added fighter support taking a base and everyone was too busy in the not-going-anywhere furball raging in some back-field out of the way off the front area to lend a hand? A lot of captures are busted simply because the enemy has too much air superiority--as I said, in a short time I've been on a LOT of captures where just ONE bandit screwed the pooch by bagging the Goon or shooting up a couple troops. Even ONE extra fighter can make a big difference.
And btw, those buff pilots who roll in to a target "just because" aren't the rule. Most of the guys I usually fly with are FAR more systematic. If they up buffs, then they're doing it to contribute directly to the capture, not just to make things go "Boom."
Don't base your view of a whole class of players on the actions of a few dweebs.
As for the CV, I'm trying to remember a time I've EVER seen guys on the main saying to leave an enemy carrier alone. About every fight I've been in where a CV was present everyone and their mother was calling for alt-monkey buffs to turn it into driftwood.
He asked for examples of personal experiences ... I gave them ... I never said that ALL of the bomber boyz are like that ... did I ? ... I didn't think so.
As far as your experiences with CV fights ... I guess you haven't been around long enough.
Who the hell are you to decide what is best for my $14.99 ... I pay the money ... I decide where and how I want to fly ... WITHOUT causing others grief.
If you can't muster up enough guys to complete a capture ... then I guess you not really organized as you need to be ... or you need to join a squad that can supply the numbers needed ... or fly joint ops with another squad ... or get more squaddies. You don't need us ... and trying to force us is where the hatred comes from.
Think about it ... we don't care who wins the war ... or captures.
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Originally posted by LYNX
Now the answere to your big question about how long it stays down. NO ONE FREAKIN KNOWS :rofl
Exactly. I use to practice bombing on strats having no idea what good, if any, my efforts were doing. So I asked, "Hey, am I helping out?", the answer was always "Uhhhhhh huhuhuh you said 'strat' huhuhhehe"
Seems like 'behind the scenes' the game engine is making some sense out of all that nutty strat data... but HT is hiding that information from us.
It always struk me as totally fake that bases just regenerated even if the team ignored them.
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Wow... you were "laughing the whole time" you were typing in this relatively sub-par thread... and you give me 1.0 for brains...?
Umm what are you saying, people who laugh don't have brains. Man what are you twelve and just don't have any yet?
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I have a hard time agreeing with the point in the first example, though. Every single time I’ve heard communications about an enemy fleet, the first thing most folks try to do is sink the carrier. That seems to be the overriding goal of most attack pilots that I have encountered in that situation. So, it seems a bit disingenuous to expect someone to do otherwise when sinking the carrier is considered standard operating procedures.
You asked ... I told you the truth ... yes ... 99.99 percent of the time, people are begging to sink the CV ... but there have been numerous instances, since I have started playing (4 years ago), where they were asked to back off and it was summarily ignored.
In the second example, you’re assuming a whole lot. You’re essentially speaking for every single pilot that was involved in the furball. How do we know that every pilot involved in the fight was just there for the furball? Perhaps a group of them were working to “CAP” the field and/or eliminate the fighter threat so that they could hit an adjacent field without fear of enemy fighters coming in from somewhere else.
Don't change my story and ask how ? ... I told you that the fight was raging BETWEEN the bases ... no capture was imminent at all, and there was no time during the melee that one side pushed the other back over their field where a CAP could be used. Again, you asked and I told you the truth.
Regardless, you’re getting mad at folks for playing the game the way it was obviously designed to be played.
Wrong ... thats the way YOU want to play the game ... not me and a whole lot of other people ... this is what causes the problem ... YOU telling me what I should and should not do ... and if I don't do it your way ... well ... your gonna bomb the FHs to hell and back and make sure that I can't fly and fight anymore ... sounds childish ?
A group of friends decide to up a few formations of bombers to go hit a strat target. They’re all having a jolly time. Then, during their climb-out, they get jumped by a bandit from a nearby furball. The bandit shoots a number of them down and generally ruins the experience of the bomber pilots.
Is this not, essentially, the same thing?
Not even close ... what they were attacked by was not a "furballer" ... they were attacked by the Cherry pickin vulchers that hang ABOVE the furball waiting to pick someone who is occupied ... furballers would not be at the alt that those bombers would be at ... unless they were 5K or below.
Nice try ... but "No Soup for you !!!" on that one.
Nice try all together tho ... does a furballer come into your field and take out the BHs ? .... the ord ? ... no they don't ... why ? ... because in reality, they don't give a rats arse if you bomb the whole map into oblivion ... just leave the field that the furball is feeding alone ... how many other bases, towns, VHs, strats are there to level ? Plenty is the answer.
One more aspect ... if you left the field that was feeding the furball alone ... you could still "WIN THE WAR" without ever having to try to take that field ... neat concept ... but no ... thats not the way they think.
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If you guys are just in it for the fight what's the harm in taking it to a base where the capture guys need the assistance once in a while? And whoever said anything about ORDERING? I don't know about anyone else, but I don't order, I ASK for help. And I'm not saying the furballers HAVE to help, it'd just be nice to put out a call for some of you all and actually see some guys come in from time to time.
And that's the problem with coordinating: Very frequently when someone asks for help at a base no one responds. You can't really fault guys for not being able to coordinate when no one is interested, or are too busy on other offensives and defenses.
I know my fighter skills need improving. But they are. I've gone from about a .3 to just short of a .80 k/d ratio in fighters since I joined up, and I'm pretty exclusively in the Corsair, which isn't an easy bird to learn on. While occaisonally I may jabbo, I don't really do much bombing. Primarily I'm with the scant fighter cover that manages to be scratched up.
For a minute I'm going to put away my "newbie" name tag and speak as someone who's been around the 'Net and seen arguments like these flare up EVERYWHERE: I think EVERYONE in this thread needs to take a step back, take a deep breath, and REALLY read what's going on, here. There's no need for any of the furballers to be tossing out insults like they have, and the same thing goes for the strat/tac supporters. It WAS the furballers who derailed the thread first, posting how strat ruins the game, which had NOTHING to do with the original question. But the strat/tac side hasn't helped much, either and just escalated it. BOTH sides have their points, but are also taking it WAY too personally.
Do strat/tac guys do things to throw off the casual furball? Yes, it DOES happen. BUT IT MAY NOT ALWAYS BE INTENTIONAL. Many times I've asked what's happening in a given sector or base and received no response from ANYONE. It's hard to tell whether it's a genuine offensive that's been stalled between the bases by heavy enemy cap or just "mindless" fun if no one picks up the squawk.
On the same token, the strat/tac guys on LEGIT capture missions aren't going to KNOWINGLY blow through a furball just because. And I'm not saying that you HAVE to help. Like I said above, it'd be nice to every now and then see a response from people willing to put aside the static furball for a bit and lend some fighter cover on a push. Ignore the "Generals," at least consider the guys who ask nicely.
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WOW... I can see that the forum has not changed at all, lol. Kudos to Slimey and that 25 fellow. At least you two made sense.
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Hey wolf, you use to play AW with the same name?
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On the same token, the strat/tac guys on LEGIT capture missions aren't going to KNOWINGLY blow through a furball just because. And I'm not saying that you HAVE to help. Like I said above, it'd be nice to every now and then see a response from people willing to put aside the static furball for a bit and lend some fighter cover on a push. Ignore the "Generals," at least consider the guys who ask nicely.
Legit capture missions stay far away from a furball ... it's the last thing they want to run into ... my gripe is the griefer bombers who relish in busting someone elses bubble ... just cause they can.
I spend %95 of my time DEFENDING bases. I see a base blinking with no other friendlies around and I am the first off the runway. That is the first place, and the most likey place, one can find at least a fight or two these days ... and at the same time, prevent a capture by those who think that maybe they were gonna get a free pass on this capture.
I have followed the "push" ... only to get to the base and have some yahoos pork everything in sight and then have to lineup and fight for vulch scraps ... no thank you.
98% of the time, those that go with the idea of "capturing" aren't really there for the capture ... they are there for the vulch so they can pad their score and hope that they will be noticed with a low ranking and be thought of as ... "leet". Can't tell you how many times I have been at a base with at least 10-15 guys flying cap ... fighting for the vulch and when asked if there was a goon coming ... no answer ... or ... you hear on local vox ... "Goon 2 minutes out, is the town down ?" ... I fly to the town ... it's completely up ... why ? ... cause it serves no purpose to leave the vulch line ... you don't get "atta boyz" for blowing up buildings after you land.
I did the strat capture thing full time for over 2 years with the MAW and 1 of those years as the CO of the 3rd MAW wing ... I know all too well everything there is to know about taking bases, and if I had a buck for every base we took ... I would be close to retiring. I laugh at the base capture attempts that I see now.
There was no better squad in all of Aces High better at taking bases than the MAW ... they had it down to a science and I learned it all. There were a couple that were close ... Arabian Knights (flew Bish then) and the USMC (they flew Knights as did the MAW).
I got tired of shooting and blowing up things that didn't move and were ALWAYS in the same spot EVERY SINGLE TIME I showed up at a field. And, when I did meet some opposition (dogfight) ... I got my bellybutton handed to me. Oh ... I could blow things up probably better than most ... I could fly 200ft AGL and "toss" a bomb at the VH and take it down ... but I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag. I then decided to learn how to fight ... and found that each fight is NEVER the same ... dogfighting is an infinitely random act and dance ... and I like that.
Bottom line ... been there ... done that ... got all of the T-Shirts.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
You asked ... I told you the truth ... yes ... 99.99 percent of the time, people are begging to sink the CV ... but there have been numerous instances, since I have started playing (4 years ago), where they were asked to back off and it was summarily ignored.
So, your first argument is based upon something that happens 0.01% of the time...? That's probably not the best of arguments.
Don't change my story and ask how ? ... I told you that the fight was raging BETWEEN the bases ... no capture was imminent at all, and there was no time during the melee that one side pushed the other back over their field where a CAP could be used. Again, you asked and I told you the truth.
Sorry, I misunderstood. But, then again, don’t change my reply to your story... I never mentioned "capture". I said that perhaps one side was "working to 'CAP' the field and/or eliminate the fighter threat." Eliminating the fighter threat would include destroying the FH on the base, would it not? It sounds like that mission was accomplished.
Wrong ... thats the way YOU want to play the game ... not me and a whole lot of other people
Wrong. I doubt the developers would’ve spent hundreds of hours coding a strat system into the game if they never intended anyone to use it. Whether or not you want to use the strat system, or totally ignore it, is (obviously) completely up to you. However, the fact that it exists in its current form means the devs have intended for it to be there and, by extension, they have intended for it to be used.
This means the game was designed to be played with the strat system. This also means that furballers have little room to complain when other players decide to play the game the way it was designed to be played, by the devs.
... this is what causes the problem ... YOU telling me what I should and should not do
Again... to reiterate this point, I never told you or any other furballers what you should or should not do. In fact, it seems it's you guys telling the strat players what they shouldn't do (bomb strat targets). Also, for what it's worth, I won't be bombing anyone’s FH's… I'm a horrible shot with the bombs.
Not even close ... what they were attacked by was not a "furballer" ... they were attacked by the Cherry pickin vulchers that hang ABOVE the furball waiting to pick someone who is occupied
OK, if we're playing that game... Then, the lone bomber who ruined all the fun in your scenario by bombing the FH's, well he wasn't a strat player at all, he was just a loser who wanted to ruin everyone's good time.
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Superdud<
>, No bud, I never had the pleasure of playing the Air Warrior circuit. This is the first online sim I have ever been involved in, other than Doom and Doom II.
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Ahhhh, cc. I knew a guy from way back when who went by the same handle:D
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(http://sheridan.geog.kent.edu/nfc/jobu.jpg)
I ask Jobu to come, take fear from Toolshedders. I offer him cigar, rum. He will come.
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SLimy,
Sit back take a breath and stop trying to argue a point you don't have the expieriance to understand or get. Get a year or 2 under your belt, allow your skills to grow to where the strat game has played it's course and maybe the light will go on for you. Saxman gets it mostly and some day you will too.
None of the furballers are against helping out, but if it is between helping and fighting, I'm gonna fight. If some maroons are dropping hangers where the fight is I will not help the clueless toolshedders the rest of the night and would rather log.
Most of the time if I happen onto a field where they guys look like they kinow what they are doing I will help. I, like slap also came from the MAW and I can second that the MAW have strat down to a science. 40Dogs captures were like well oiled machines.
We - The blacksheep wing of the MAW were mostly VH and ack. Most often on the first pass all the ack were dead and one would have dropped the VH, simultaneously the town would go down and the troops would be landing as the last building fell. It was AH Blitxkrieg something that I do not see anymore.
I have to say I have not seen that precision from start guys in a long time. It seems you guys always drop the FHrs, leave the VH and totally forget about the town. In doing so, if you actually have a goon on the way no one ever has enough left over to drop the town, so the goon hovers and waits and then dies.
If you guys worried less about the FHrs and more about the town and let people cap I think you would find yourselves accomplishing more captures.
And don't tell me it isn't the norm for people to frop FHrd first. Even when there is a complete cap on the field and there is no way a fighter can up, I still see morons dropping the FHrs, while the VH is up and the town is up. I see this all the time and when I do, I want to help even less.
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There's arguments for and against dropping the FHs. If I were planning the mission, VH and ack WOULD be my first choice (I HATE trying to cap a field with M16s and Osties running amok). Then town. However I'd still reserve the option to kill the FHs if the cap is small, or otherwise when there's a lot more guys trying to roll than the cap can handle. But that's just me, and my preference is for total air supremacy on the target. Nothing up, or with the ABILITY to up.
For that matter, I'd want to simultaneously have guys hit surrounding fields to either tie up defenses there, or keep reinforcements from upping to break the cap over the primary target (plus, that further softens up resistance for the offense to roll to the next base).
I had a HUGE multi-part operation like that planned in my head one night at work, but the base we'd been trying to seize was captured by the time I got home, so never had a chance to implement it. Everything from an initial fightersweep, to support strikes at the nearby feeder fields, to even reserve waves for the main attack
One thing that would help is if there were guys who could train the newbie strat/tac so they know how to do it right. There's TONS of that sort of help in the TA for fighters, but from my understanding almost nothing in regards to capture ops (for that matter you're not even allowed to bomb targets in the TA, right?) Most of the veterans, as you point out, begin moving strictly to furballing as they get bored with blowing watermelon up on the ground. The problem is all that's done is left a lot of BAD examples for the new guys to follow. There's some good guys (again, most of the guys I tag along with follow your procedure, one night we even took like, five bases in just over an hour) but also a lot of guys either just inexperienced, or plain oblivious.
Hm, that sounds like an idea for the wishlist forum...
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Your on the right path saxman.
Get your goon out ahead of time, if you have the resources put a spit and an la7 as escort.
Then assign 4 guys to deack. Out of those 4 make sure one of em can drop the VH in one pass. It's easy to do, you just have to practice it. Once those 4 guys are done they cap.
Send 4 to 6 guys in on the Town when they are done they join the cap.
If you have more guys they should stay on top to drop what ever was missed after the initial wave. If every thing was dropped by the first wave tehy should pan out and look for incomming cons.
If you timed your goon right, he should be dropping troops just as everyone has completed their task.
Now granted if you get resistance in force you will all have to be spot on, but isn't fighting it out what this game is about?
Again this is MAW 101 as Slap puts it,
Towards my final time with the MAW, we had it down to such a science that it got really boring because most thoiught resistance was futile and it was.
The AKs started putting up some good defense for a while and that was fun.
When the USMC and Freebirds worked together with us it was common to take two or three fields at the same time. And again most of the captures were away from the furballs if there were any.
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Well, all I know is this.
The two reasons I find this game fun are:
1) Variety. I can fly and drive a wide range of aircraft and vehicles and man gun positions, so there is always a change of pace.
2) I'm playing with and against other people in a wide range of situations, such as strategic bombing, furballs, captures, and tank battles.
People, if Hitech had designed this solely as a dueling arena, I doubt his business would be as profitable.
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Originally posted by mars01
OMG LOLH you are good for a laugh Lynx even tho you are such a maroon. You are like some other guys I know that type alot and say nothing. I'm not frustrated, just dumbfounded at how you dodge points, talk in circles, and lie about saying things. Like it's not in bold type.
You said you never mentioned score or stats, but look at your prior post and oh there you are talking about stats and scores as if they are a measure of anything.
You said pork a field, but now all you want to do is really talk about troops and ammo and fuel. Hmmm Nice try. Porking woudl be rendering a field useless. Are FH not strategic targets? If not then why do you maroons always drop them first? Again nice try LOLH.
AS for the rest of your circling nonsense...
LOLH you are like arguing with Beetle or Zazen. You don't have a clue, can't put together a good rational arguement to save you life so you just type gibberish till anyone with half a brain tires of you.
For the last time, Awe whats a matter Lynx getting a little disturbed bwahahahhaa lolhay.
My point taken from Midnights quote above, is that at no time now or in the past is a strat system good if it can render fields porked for 3 hours. Try and let that sink in before you pull your foot out of your pie hole LOLHAYROTFF. HAHAHA. If you still don't get it you are hopless. I can't make it any more simple for you there chumply LOLH.
For reading impaired, I am now addressing RedTop.
I agree Red, good post.
Forgive my late response i spent a whole day in tears questioning my abilities of rational debate :rofl So, if by talking in circles you mean drawing you back to the points I made previuosly. Points you have chosen to ignore, fail to understand or deliberatly misconstrue. Points that just plain blow your some what benign responses out the water then I am guilty as charged. Get a grip lad.
Midnights post
It's not like the old days when squads used to fly joint strikes against the city and several factories at once. I remember the Cites used to get leveled, followed shortly thereafter by AAA and Fuel factories. After that, once you killed stuff on a field, it could be down upwards of three hours.
Your reply
Honestly, what kind of gameplay is the above. A field taken off the map for 3 hours... That is not game play that is game stagnation.
My reply
Is the above a classic case of you not reading all the replies to this thread? Also, I don't like the idea of the miss quote. You have my name to somone elses quote. A quote you clearly have missunderstud in the first instance.
Your reply
And what don't I understand about midnights orignial quote? What part of a field being down for three hours don't you get about it being bad for Game Play and the arena?
My reply
The part about it being outdated by over a year. The part about it being irrelavent as part of your arguement / opinion to game play today. Midnight did say or words to the effect " there used to be a time when".
Your reply
OMG LOLH. can you pick any other meainingless parts of that quote. Who cares when it was, the fact is his context is that in the glory days of AHI the strat could knock a field down for 3 hours. Any person that thinks that is a good thing should fly off line. LOLH
My reply
Now lets see here .."can you pick any other meaningless parts of that quote"..... Jack prettythang. Dude how many toe's you got left? If it's meaningless why bother typing it let alone using it as any kind of point.
Yor latest reply
My point taken from Midnights quote above, is that at no time now or in the past is a strat system good if it can render fields porked for 3 hours. Try and let that sink in before you pull your foot out of your pie hole LOLHAYROTFF. HAHAHA. If you still don't get it you are hopless. I can't make it any more simple for you there chumply LOLH.
Do you actually read let alone take on board anyones replies. Or are you so keen to stir the pot with your, somewhat, verbose replies that, the actual context of the thread / replies are your own personal play things. "Scew the context" I can have LOL fun crankin this up. Pathetic!
To recap :- Last part of Midnight orginal reply spoke of what once was . Past tense. You try to make a point of it. I point out that you have misunderstud but your not having a (Mars) bar of it. I reiterate that your point has no point inTODAYS game. I'll ad now "thread", for that matter. As if it's not simple enough. Then you come back with a classic. The "meaningless" part. At this moment I wasn't laughing or clapping with an overly exuberant amount of glee. It's far to sad for that. Yes, it was a meaningless point! I tried telling you it was a meaningless point especially in TODAYS strat system and even now your still trying to make, in your own very "special" words, a point of it. Mars01.....stop! It's pointless, has nothing to do with the thread . Hello.... in todays strat system a field cannot
be rendered porked for 3 hours. Get it ? Got it ?
Now the good bit....."Porkin". A classic again. Your total inability to stay with the plot, at best. More like your deliberate way to err move the goal posts so's to speak. Unbeleavable inconsistances on your part. Your believable childish way of toying with poeple on these boards. You, if you believe your own drivel, are the 0.01 % that doesn't know what "porking" means. The other 99.9% do. A bit rich from an ex MAW strat guy. Just to underline the porkin thing once more in todays strat system I wrote as follows
Here's something for you to ponder over!........In todays strat system when a toolsheder porks a field generally it only affects other toolsheders or "win the war types". In plain understandable words YOU, as furballer, are hardly affected. You don't carry bombs and you don't use troops. The only possible infringments to you as a furballer is 1) Lack of dar but not the dar bar. 2) On the odd occasion your fuel is reduced to 75%. Now if your going to tell me 75% effects so and so plane I'll show another plane that it doesn't. If your going to argue that it stops the offensive furball ,if there is such a thing, I'll argue about the fat, slow, loaded, lumbering porker not being shot down. Same goes for the Uber porker that we have whizzing around these days.
Somone else also pitched in as follows.
Quote by E25280 in reply to you.
In every instance I have ever heard anyone in the MA talk about "porking" a field, it has meant to kill #1 Radar #2 Troops #3 Ord. #4 used to be fuel, but since you can't get fuel below 75% anymore, it is often ignored.
Hangers Again no one talked about hanger banging. I even tried to pre-empt you bringing it up. My pre-emptive reply that you chose to ignore is as follows which further emphasizes's your err "character".
Something else I better point out before you go off on one. This thread is about "STRAT" bombing. Hanger bombing is done to death in loads of other threads.
As for you toying with the thread / replies. What happened to you in your formative years? Sister ? Teacher? Daddy, if you have one, make you feel worthless? Dude, your sat at your computer going "hehehe". You get your jollies from stiring it up. I bet in real life face to face your as good as gold. You clearly are supressing issues and this bulletin board is some kind of release for the internet hero you plainly are.
I doubt you'll have anything meaningfull to contribute beyond this point so as a parting justure I'll admit you have me beat with is your verbose ability in name calling. You have brought me down to your level and plainly beaten me with your experience. However, Mars01 it is my opinion (not speaking for others) that you Sir are indeed a Jack prettythang.
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Originally posted by mars01
Sit back take a breath and stop trying to argue a point you don't have the expieriance to understand or get. Get a year or 2 under your belt, allow your skills to grow to where the strat game has played it's course and maybe the light will go on for you. Saxman gets it mostly and some day you will too.
So, since you've got more experience in the game, you're correct by default? Your opinion is automatically the correct one? That seems to be an overriding theme with you and your squad – that strat is something you grow out of. I kind of doubt that only "noobs" are doing the strat bombing.
Anyhow, I'm not a strat player. If you’ll read my initial post here that started this whole mess of a thread, I said I took a formation of bombers on a whim and hit a strat target – I was wondering what kind of impact it had on the game.
Take a look at my score – I think I've flown 3 or 4 bomber missions since joining the game, plus a handful of goon runs. My favorite rides are the A6M2, KI-84 and Hurri IIC. I love mixing it up in a turn fight more than anything else in the game.
However...
I think it smacks of misplaced elitism and unearned arrogance (nothing new in this crowd, I’m sure) to take the view that all strat gaming is bad and should be met with insults and sarcasm. Which is why I’ve been wasting my time typing up replies in this thread.
As has been mentioned before - in a perfect world, every map would have a "fighter town", just like a "tank town". Furballers could duke it out with no impact on who wins the map. Until this happens, or until CT comes out, I guess everyone is just SOL.
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Originally posted by Toad
No, I just sacrifice a chicken to JoBu every day, asking him to make you guys so happy in the CT that you never visit the MA again.
Everyone one will be happy and Jobu will get a bottle of rum. :)
Please stop. It's not big and it's not clever. I'm not talking about the sacrifies either.
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A point made by E25280 that I feel I should address.
The original question involved refineries and factories. Hangers did not come into the picture until Toad and you came in and decided to turn this into a furball vs stategic shout match. I will also put some blame on Lynx for taking the bait (not that anyone cares who I "blame", but whatever).
E25280 you are correct. I did take the bait. A blunder on my behalf for allowing the thread to be Hi-Jacked. I extend my appols to SLIMEY-J
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Originally posted by slimey_J
So, your first argument is based upon something that happens 0.01% of the time...? That's probably not the best of arguments.
Sorry, I misunderstood. But, then again, don’t change my reply to your story... I never mentioned "capture". I said that perhaps one side was "working to 'CAP' the field and/or eliminate the fighter threat." Eliminating the fighter threat would include destroying the FH on the base, would it not? It sounds like that mission was accomplished.
Wrong. I doubt the developers would’ve spent hundreds of hours coding a strat system into the game if they never intended anyone to use it. Whether or not you want to use the strat system, or totally ignore it, is (obviously) completely up to you. However, the fact that it exists in its current form means the devs have intended for it to be there and, by extension, they have intended for it to be used.
This means the game was designed to be played with the strat system. This also means that furballers have little room to complain when other players decide to play the game the way it was designed to be played, by the devs.
Again... to reiterate this point, I never told you or any other furballers what you should or should not do. In fact, it seems it's you guys telling the strat players what they shouldn't do (bomb strat targets). Also, for what it's worth, I won't be bombing anyone’s FH's… I'm a horrible shot with the bombs.
OK, if we're playing that game... Then, the lone bomber who ruined all the fun in your scenario by bombing the FH's, well he wasn't a strat player at all, he was just a loser who wanted to ruin everyone's good time.
Originally posted by slimey_J
Can you give me an example of a situation in which one player easily ruined the dogfighting enjoyment of many?
Listen ... the above quote is what you posted ... and I answered it ... you didn't quantify a specific percentage that the events needed to occur ... in fact you said ... Can you give me an example ... and I did. Now that I have, you are trying to discredit them with smoke and mirrors. I'm sorry that I answered you question. I don't think that you acutally thought that someone would answer it so now your back-peddling.
The developers spent hundreds of hours coding a strat system into the game for those who want to use it ... but there is no coad FORCING anyone to use it. This game can use a map from one Wednesday to the next (when it is autoreset) without ever capturing a field ... and HT wouldn't blink an eye or be upset ... ya wanna know why ? ... because he still got your $14.95 ... it makes no difference to him.
One more time ... and read carefully ... go ahead and play the strat/capture game till ya puke ... I don't care. Here is the important part ... if there was a furball raging between two fields, in the overall schema and logic of this game ... those 2 fields ARE NOT NEEDED to "WIN THE W@R" ... get it ? Go bomb the watermelon out of everything else ... have a blast ... knock yourself out ... "WIN THE W@R" ... we don't care ... just don't "grief" the furball.
But, in the overall schema and logic of "griefers", the raging furball must be destroyed ... why ? ... just because ... or "too many resources" are being used in the furball. That is the part that pisses people off.
Now ... back to strat ... go bomb/jabo/strafe every single strat target there is ... makes no difference to us ... just leave the furball alone.
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As has been mentioned before - in a perfect world, every map would have a "fighter town", just like a "tank town". Furballers could duke it out with no impact on who wins the map. Until this happens, or until CT comes out, I guess everyone is just SOL.
There is a new map that has 3 fields in close proximity and was meant to be used as a "Fighter Town" ... but as I said before ... the griefer bomber boyz can't help themselves and feel the need to bomb the FHs at these fields ... all countries are to blame ... all countries have griefer bomber boyz ... but the bottom line is that these fields really mean sqaut in the capture/win the war scenario, but for some reason, they need to be bombed ... sad.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Listen ... the above quote is what you posted ... and I answered it ... you didn't quantify a specific percentage that the events needed to occur ... in fact you said ... Can you give me an example ... and I did. Now that I have, you are trying to discredit them with smoke and mirrors. I'm sorry that I answered you question. I don't think that you acutally thought that someone would answer it so now your back-peddling.
Come on slapshot, I'm not backpeddling. You know and I know that it's just silly to base an argument on something that happens that infrequently. I asked for an example, and the first thing you come up with to make your point is a scenario that, by your own admission, almost never happens.
One more time ... and read carefully ... go ahead and play the strat/capture game till ya puke ... I don't care.
I think it's you that needs to read carefully – I'm not a strat player. Additionally, I believe the strat players would play till they puke if the furballers would quit interrupting things with their holier-than-thou sarcastic comments.
Now ... back to strat ... go bomb/jabo/strafe every single strat target there is ... makes no difference to us
To refresh your memory once more – this thread is about bombing strat targets. The mere fact that you and your squad members saw fit to jump into this thread disproves your repeated declaration that you don’t care about strat players bombing strat targets. If that were true, and you guys truly didn't care, you and your pals would've never ventured into this debate.
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The problem is when the furball pops up between two fields that offer some sort of strategic value to the strat/tac guy's advance. It DOESN'T just occur in out of the way places. Sometimes furballs pop up right in the middle of the front line, often BECAUSE of failed capture attempts (I've been on one or two well-organized capture flights that turned into furballs simply because the enemy cap was too heavy).
For example, let's say the Nits are on a roll pushing towards Bish HQ. The advance is pushing up a corridor towards HQ where there's one airfield that pretty much controls the defense of the area. Let's say the Nits tried taking that field, but the attempt failed, and a furball broke out. There ARE other airfields in the vicinity, but there's something special about this one. Maybe it's the Zone Master controlling the strat in the area, or that it's a 5k base and all the others are at SL, or even that this field offers the best striking position against the Bish HQ. Meanwhile the furball grows and grows as the furballers are drawn to the area looking for a "fite."
Are you saying the strat/tac guys have to abandon their attack and bypass a target of major strategic value just for the furballers?
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Last time Slimey ...
Come on slapshot, I'm not backpeddling. You know and I know that it's just silly to base an argument on something that happens that infrequently. I asked for an example, and the first thing you come up with to make your point is a scenario that, by your own admission, almost never happens.
You are backpeddling ... I was not trying to ARGUE a point ... you asked a simple question and I simply answered it ... nothing more ... nothing less.
It was you then who tried to minimize my answer. Yes ... I did state that it doesn't happen very frequently ... but that doesn't dismiss that fact that it DOES HAPPEN. You asked ... I answered ... apparently you didn't like my answer or didn't think that someone would answer it.
I think it's you that needs to read carefully – I'm not a strat player. Additionally, I believe the strat players would play till they puke if the furballers would quit interrupting things with their holier-than-thou sarcastic comments.
Sorry for the miscommunication ... I was referring to "strat" players in general ... not you specifically. Us "furballer" and our holier-than-thou sarcastic comments STILL does not prevent "strat/capture" players from playing the game the way they like it ... until that does happen ... then they would have some ground to stand on.
To refresh your memory once more – this thread is about bombing strat targets. The mere fact that you and your squad members saw fit to jump into this thread disproves your repeated declaration that you don’t care about strat players bombing strat targets. If that were true, and you guys truly didn't care, you and your pals would've never ventured into this debate.
I need no refresh, but it appears that you do, due to the fact that you are confused as to what a "Strat target" is considered, in this game.
Strat target are ... Ord factories ... Troop factories ... ack factories ... radar factories .... cities ... HQ ... those are "strat" targets and that is what I was referring to and that is what this thread was referring to.
So ... with that in mind ... I REALLY DON"T CARE IF YOU BOMB/JABO/STRAFE THE watermelon OUT OF STRAT TARGETS ... it makes no difference to me or to a furballer.
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Originally posted by LYNX
I really wish you could have graced us with more wisdom however your comments, opinions and vast knowlegde of the substance of this thread have been greatfully noted.
Having checked the score system I see your skills as a fighter pilot makes us feel almost unworthy of your input. A fighter pilot with a hit percent of 3.77% makes us sprey oops I mean prey for your fighter escort skills. Also your attack hit percent is impressive with 160%. You could clear up the tiny oil tank in town that we may miss. We could also rest assured that you wouldn't give up becuase out of 58 sorties you killed 56 guys, only dying 43 times with an impressive 13 landings.
Our strategic battles with sheds will live long as you have the enemy "Quaking" in their boots. When the bad guys learn of your impressive rank (2664) ACM and gunnery they'll leave us defencless tool sheaders alone to take on the mighty fighter pilot known as "Toad"
LMAO mate !!!! lol
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There's something great about taking bombers up to 25k and going on a long bomb run, you never what will hapen, might see nothing, just drop your ord, turn round and land.
Or you might get jumped and have a few mins of fending off enemy fighters.
I really enjoy going on bombruns, theyr'e really good fun, going as an escort is good fun too. It's not often you get a fight at 20k+ with another fighter, normally it's sub 10k down to 0k and it's usally some guy enticing you down to the deck to see who can drop flaps, evelator trim off, gear down and stall slower than you, all in all, not that exciting.
I also enjoy the furballs, big dog fights, a bit of this and a bit of that does no one any harm, keep a mixture so to speak.
But to just constantly go up to 6-8 k looking for a fight and dying does seem a tad bit boring, but hey! If that's yer gig...
DISCLAIMER- No hijacking itended here, just my take/overview on what I have read on here.
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I believe there is still a place for taking out strats. Not as much in AH2 as in AH1, but it’s still a viable tactic. Much of what Midnight says is true. However, he states it from a fighter pilots point of view. It would take a strong effort from a group of pilots using fighters, say Typhoons or P38’s, take down a City or Factory installation. It would take a much smaller group of pilots using bombers to achieve the same effect. By myself I can take a City down to 67% in one sortie. If one or two other pilots join me, we can take that down to a percentage where it makes a heavy impact on re-supply times for anything other than hangers which of course have a set pop up time. While three pilots with bombers can make this impact, they could hardly take over a base….much less a zone control base.
Midnight says the best way to hurt the enemy re-supply times is to take the zone control base. Very true, but that usually means a deep penetration strike by a large group of pilot’s. As has been mentioned, it is not the easiest thing to organize and get cooperation for. Also the enemy tends to get excited by a large group penetrating so deep into their territory and going for a zone base. Even if you are able to capture the base (how you got the Goon there through all those enemy bases I’ll never know), you now have a base surrounded by enemy bases. That enemy is very excited about recovering the base and in a great position to do so. As a result sometimes the best way is to whittle the enemy bases down from the edges. Take bases from the outside in. That makes the strating of Cities and Factory installations a viable proposal.
In AH2 the bases are much closer to each other than in AH1. Fuel can only be dropped to 75%. Hardly the crippling blow that it used to be in AH1 where you could drop a field to 25% and effectively eliminate your enemy’s ability to reach your base in a fighter. The point was made that dropping ordinance can be overcome by using bullets and cannon. This fuel situation and the closeness of the fields in AH2 is why this can be true.
High Tech made a lot of changes when they made AH2.
- Fields grouped together much closer.
- Inability to reduce field fuel supplies below 75%
- Thin cloud layer at around 14 to 16 K altitude. Often thick enough to impair bombing.
- Doubling the damage required to bring down an HQ.
- Adjustment of flight times on specific aircraft. Some shorter, some longer.
- Remodeling of 50 cal damage, making some aircraft less effective than before.
- In AH2 it seems you need to be closer to reliably make a kill.
- Eliminating the ability of bombers to adjust convergence of their guns.
- Etc.
Summary: The changes made from AH1 to AH2 have been designed to meet the desires of those who enjoy furballing. Admittedly this is probably the majority of people, but it has decreased the variety available in the game. Not eliminated it, but decreased it. It makes it more difficult to make a dramatic difference with bombers, but has not completely eliminated the value of bombing the factories and cities and other strats. Change happens and we have to adjust I guess, but I believe High Tech is losing customers who enjoy a variety.
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ChopSaw ... very well put ... the strat system is alive and well ... but very hard to make an impact on.
All the changes that you list ... have taken place ... but you painted them with a very large brush and have blamed all these changes on the "wants" of furballers.
Well ... your wrong.
The only thing in your list that could be directly attributed to the "wants" of fuballers is ...
Fields grouped together much closer.
The rest ...
Inability to reduce field fuel supplies below 75%
Adjusted due to the higher fuel burn rate of AH II and the over abundance of fuel porkers. The fuel porkin complaint was heard from all side of the fence ... not just furballers.
Thin cloud layer at around 14 to 16 K altitude. Often thick enough to impair bombing.
AH I had plenty of cloud cover and was thicker than what we see now. Clouds were brought back into AH II after HT reworked the weather coad ... it had nothing to do with furballers.
Doubling the damage required to bring down an HQ.
Furballers could care less if HQ is down ... it was harden at the request of the "capture" crowd because it was too EASY to flatten HQ and they can't see where the undefended fields are if there is no radar.
Adjustment of flight times on specific aircraft. Some shorter, some longer.
See fuel burn above.
Remodeling of 50 cal damage, making some aircraft less effective than before.
I never read anywhere that HT remodled 50 cal damage. If you are refering to how hard it is to take ack guns down with 50 cal as opposed to cannons ... well you can thank the "realism" crowd for that one. Furballers don't fight in the ack nor where there is ack ... usually.
In AH2 it seems you need to be closer to reliably make a kill.
You can thank the upgraded graphics and HT for that one ... Planes are now rendered with finer detail than what was presented in AH I ... ergo, you need to be more precise inorder to hit the "plane" pixels.
Eliminating the ability of bombers to adjust convergence of their guns.
Furballers, for the most part, don't engage bombers unless that fly thru the furball at altitudes between 10ft to 4K. Furballers did not request this.
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Lynx my last post was it with you. You say little and type much. I am not going wade through your BS. Your the moron that posted about score and said you didn't, your the moron that can't understand a field being down for three hours is a bad thing. Your no longer worth the effort. I had mt laugh at you but now I'm done. You can have the last post.
Slimy - you need a cup of lighten up too. Yeah oohh look at us elitist LOLH. If I was so elitist I wouldn't even bother with a noob such as you. Don't take your cues from morons like Lynx.
We speak from wisdom and expieriance, not our arses like my buddy Lynx. My point to you was relax and learn the game before you start going off half cocked on guys like slapshot or toad, all your doing is showing your newbness. Take it for what you want.
And yes many people start with strat because it has a very short learning curve compared to AtoA combat. And thost that are looking for a fast pace, edge of your seat, heart racing game will migrate to AtoA and leave the strat to the newbs. It was certainly my path. I can remember reading posts from Laz and thinking and posting just like you, only to have a complete turn around once I got more expieriance and a clue.
You remarks smack of panties bunching and it aint worth it lol.
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
Summary: The changes made from AH1 to AH2 have been designed to meet the desires of those who enjoy furballing. Admittedly this is probably the majority of people, but it has decreased the variety available in the game.
Perhaps, but when I check country stats on the clipboard it usually says around 35% in flight for all three countries. And that wouldn't be just furballers. Or I could be misunderstanding what the stat is saying. It seems low or there are more GV guys than would first appear to be.
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SlapShot, let me clarify my earlier statements per your comments.
I classify furballers in the group of people that like to fly fighters and nothing but fighters. They are of course more into the turn and burn type of fighter rather than the BnZ, but fighters none the less. These tight turning fighters have much less flight time available to them than BnZ fighters such as the P51. Perhaps I should have simply said fighter pilots, but I think you catch my drift on this. Thus your impression of a “broad brush” approach.
Inability to reduce field fuel supplies below 75%
“Adjusted due to the higher fuel burn rate of AH II and the over abundance of fuel porkers. The fuel porkin complaint was heard from all side of the fence ... not just furballers.”
AH1 and AH2 have the same fuel burn rates. Moreover this was a larger problem in AH1 because of the wider spacing of fields on most of the maps. I have the old burn rates on hard copy and I’ve been comparing them. Additionally, while it may fairly be said the complaint against being able to reduce the fuel level to as low as 25% was heard from all quarters, it was heard most vigorously from the fighter quarter. Furballers, as well as other fighter craft, didn’t have enough fuel available to launch, get to another field and return much less fight at that field for any effective amount of time. They only had fuel, barely, to put up a defensive fight above their own field. Fighters such as the P51 had it a little better than say….a Yak9U, but still didn’t have it easy. Bombers still had the ability to get somewhere and drop their loads due to their inherent flight times. Still…your point is well taken. It was not just the furballers complaining.
Thin cloud layer at around 14 to 16 K altitude. Often thick enough to impair bombing.
“AH I had plenty of cloud cover and was thicker than what we see now. Clouds were brought back into AH II after HT reworked the weather coad ... it had nothing to do with furballers.”
Again, your point is well taken. Clouds as you describe had and have nothing to do with furballers. The clouds I saw in AH1 and now see in AH2 are not exactly what I was referring to. What I specifically was focusing on is the all but universal haze layer that occurs at the altitudes I mentioned. This is not a formation of clouds so much as it is a haze layer of varying thicknesses, most often seen in the two layer configuration. This has a tendency to drive bombers lower than they might otherwise prefer to be. That plays to the fighters and especially to the fighters that enjoy furballing. Furballing usually occurs at low altitudes. With the bombers coming in lower (14 to 16K), the fighters in such groups can come up and engage more easily than if I was at say 20 to 25K. Thus the basis for my comment. They can now stay low and furball as well as climb a bit to engage bombers. Before they had to make a more dedicated effort to one or the other.
Doubling the damage required to bring down an HQ.
“Furballers could care less if HQ is down ... it was harden at the request of the "capture" crowd because it was too EASY to flatten HQ and they can't see where the undefended fields are if there is no radar.”
I suppose the “capture crowd” would be unhappy. I feel that crowd is largely composed of furballers. Furballers who wish to see a result of their furballing, so perhaps they are not pure furballers. That having been said, furballers like to know where the fight is and if at all possible (i.e. when their field radar is up) flip up the clipboard to see where the enemy is over their field. Additionally, while the “capture crowd” may want to find undefended fields, the furballer wants to find the defended fields or fields of his own that have a large number of enemy above them. In the end, nobody likes to fly blind and it bombing your enemy’s HQ was a great way to tick them off as well as giving a brief advantage to the other two countries.
Adjustment of flight times on specific aircraft. Some shorter, some longer.
“See fuel burn above.”
As mentioned, my comments on burn time are based upon a comparison between AH1 and AH2. This comparison shows the differences I’ve mentioned. Some aircraft have a longer flight time in AH2 than they did in AH1. Some have shorter. The end effect is to narrow the flight time differential between the Turn and Burn fighters and the Boom and Zoom type. BnZ style aircraft in AH1 had an advantage in a longer flight time. As mentioned I believe most furballers are into the turn and burn style. Hence the derogatory references to “cherry pickers” by furballers. They are most often referring to BnZ style fighting and if properly done, that means a BnZ style aircraft.
Remodeling of 50 cal damage, making some aircraft less effective than before.
“I never read anywhere that HT remodled 50 cal damage. If you are refering to how hard it is to take ack guns down with 50 cal as opposed to cannons ... well you can thank the "realism" crowd for that one. Furballers don't fight in the ack nor where there is ack ... usually.”
Much of what we know about the game is not documented by HT, but inferred through our experiences. I was in fact referring to the difficulty in taking down ack with a 50 cal in AH2 compared to AH1. I feel this does play to the furballers and their distaste for the BnZ aircraft. A good number of the turn and burn aircraft have cannons. Similarly a large number of the BnZ style aircraft have 50 cals. Yes there are exceptions such as the Typhoon, but in general this holds. So if you want to go to a field to deack and also be able to fight, the emphasis is more on a furballer style aircraft than not. Again, there are aircraft like the Typhoon, but that is not really an effective fighter against TnB style aircraft and it’s not as good at BnZ as say a P51D. This is a generalized way of putting it and I’m well aware that there are some pilots who do extremely well with the Typhoon in air combat. In the end it makes those planes equipped with 50 cal a little less versatile and thus less effective. It’s also harder to make long range shots in AH2 than in AH1 and that limits one of the 50 cals specialties.
In AH2 it seems you need to be closer to reliably make a kill.
“You can thank the upgraded graphics and HT for that one ... Planes are now rendered with finer detail than what was presented in AH I ... ergo, you need to be more precise inorder to hit the "plane" pixels.”
Furballers like to get in really close on each other and have guns that do a lot of damage really quickly, but don’t have much of a flat trajectory. BnZ style fighters are close perhaps but for a very short period of time and often, in AH1, made long distance shots both straight and deflection and had/have guns that are designed to do smaller damage, but have flat trajectories. Bomber pilots were able to hit fighters at longer distances with effect. Now I can light a guy up at 800 in AH2 and it’s like I was pinging him at 1400 in AH1. Some noise to let him know he’s getting shot, but relatively little damage. This lets the fighters get in closer than they could before. I’m not sure this change they’ve made makes for realistic play. Yes, it’s probably more realistic in terms of historical shooting differences, but this is a computer not a real plane. The input output interface has to be adjusted to give the effect of the fight rather than historical and factual accuracies such as the shooting distances. Modeling should be done for effect rather than historical data.
Eliminating the ability of bombers to adjust convergence of their guns.
“Furballers, for the most part, don't engage bombers unless that fly thru the furball at altitudes between 10ft to 4K. Furballers did not request this.”
I refer you to my comments above under effectiveness of the 50 cal and the thin cloud layer. Furballers like to stay low. The thin cloud haze keeps them low. The current unchangeable convergence for bombers seems to be around 300 and we bombers used to set it at 650. This made it difficult for somebody with cannon to come up on our 6 and sit there shooting at us. Before we could ping them at 1400 when they did that and start dismantling them at 1,000. Now we’d be foolish to start shooting at greater than 800. This gives a little more ability to the furballer who typically carries cannon because he/she can get closer in a sloppier approach and do damage.
Hope this clears up the reasoning behind some of my comments.
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Originally posted by mars01
Slimy - you need a cup of lighten up too. Yeah oohh look at us elitist LOLH. If I was so elitist I wouldn't even bother with a noob such as you. Don't take your cues from morons like Lynx.
marz00 - Did you actually read the thread? Honestly? Can you show me where I went off "half cocked" on anyone? Do yourself a favor and reread the thread, pay particular attention to the point when you and your supercilious squad mates came into the picture.
You remarks smack of panties bunching and it aint worth it lol.
Your remarks, or, what I could make of them through your atrocious spelling, smack of the same fake arrogance I spoke of earlier. No worries, though – your previous posts left me expecting nothing more from you. If it "aint worth it", then by all means feel free to stop posting in this thread.
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Originally posted by Toad
Allow me to add that I "Thank Cod for TOD!"
I hope TOD or CT as it is now named, will be compellingly addictive to all strateegereestas. I hope that those crying out for Strateegery will spend 24/7 glued to their joysticks playing CT till death do they part from their 'puter.
May the search for rank, glory and ticker-tape "We won the WAR!" parades so consume them that they forsake the MA forever and ever.
Welll CT sounds kinda fun but the way you behave makes me want to stay in the MA trying to find what ever fight you may be in and bomb your hangers... Looks like I could get alot more of a reaction out of you for doing this than from anyone else for bombing any other type of target.
Where ever you may be I will try to be there to make you whine. :D :aok
(http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6466/funpolice1yj.jpg)
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AH1 and AH2 have the same fuel burn rates.
No they don't ... this is where you are absolutely wrong and I don't care what you have on hard copy. AH I had a fuel burn rate of 1.5 ... AH II has a fuel burn rate of 2.0 ... doesn't look significant when looking at the numbers ... but is very significant to actual flight time.
Additionally, while it may fairly be said the complaint against being able to reduce the fuel level to as low as 25% was heard from all quarters, it was heard most vigorously from the fighter quarter.
Yes it was heard from all quarters ... I agree ... but the most outspoken were the LA and YAK drivers ... hardly a plane that is really fit for furballin'. I never complained due to the fact that when fuel was %25 ... it really didn't matter to me. Like I said before ... I specialize in base defense and usually only take %25 in that scenario ... so it was no sweat off my back when fuel was porked.
This has a tendency to drive bombers lower than they might otherwise prefer to be. That plays to the fighters and especially to the fighters that enjoy furballing. Furballing usually occurs at low altitudes. With the bombers coming in lower (14 to 16K), the fighters in such groups can come up and engage more easily than if I was at say 20 to 25K.
Wrong ... lets see how quickly you can take a Spit V, XIII, Hurri IIC from 3K-4K to 14K-16K and make an attack on the bombers, at cruise speed, after you have spotted them ... the effort is futile at best ... the bomber formation will rip u a new stunninghunk if you try/can catch them.
As mentioned, my comments on burn time are based upon a comparison between AH1 and AH2. This comparison shows the differences I’ve mentioned. Some aircraft have a longer flight time in AH2 than they did in AH1. Some have shorter.
Mathematically impossible ... unless HT and crew made engine adjustments to the aircraft that shows differences. If they didn't, then the aircraft will have shorter legs in AH II as compared to AH I.
I feel this does play to the furballers and their distaste for the BnZ aircraft. A good number of the turn and burn aircraft have cannons. Similarly a large number of the BnZ style aircraft have 50 cals. Yes there are exceptions such as the Typhoon, but in general this holds. So if you want to go to a field to deack and also be able to fight, the emphasis is more on a furballer style aircraft than not.
Come on ... the .50 cals are no different now then they ever have been. HT just decided, cause the realism crowd hounded and he must have agreed, that just 2 50 cals CANNOT take down an ack bunker. Cannons ... absolutely ... cause they are explosive where 50 cals aren't.
Read this thread ... http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169416
and this post in particular.
Originally posted by hammer
Home now and did a quick check. .50s on the -4 destroy a fighter hangar with 2374 rounds. Exactly the same as the P-51D and F4U-1D. .50 on the M-3 does it with 2224 rounds.
50 cals have not changed their lethality when it comes to shooting other aircraft and targets ... with the exception of ack bunkers.
Furballers like to get in really close on each other and have guns that do a lot of damage really quickly, but don’t have much of a flat trajectory.
Take up a Spit IX ... when the Hispanos run out ... you have the good ol 50 cal left (long range - flat trajectory) ... same as your BnZ P-51. Take Spit V ... run out of Hispanos and you have a chitload of 303s (long range - flat trajectory).
I’m not sure this change they’ve made makes for realistic play. Yes, it’s probably more realistic in terms of historical shooting differences, but this is a computer not a real plane. The input output interface has to be adjusted to give the effect of the fight rather than historical and factual accuracies such as the shooting distances. Modeling should be done for effect rather than historical data.
The change that was made ... and I will say it again ... the graphic detail became finer. Planes now use many more pixels to render their shape.
Let say for watermelon and giggles for arguments sake, but in the overall scheme and logic of things it applies ..
In AH I it took 1000 pixels to render a wing. BIG FAT PIXELS. Shooting at that wing and tracking shots to the pixels that were hit, you could easily pop someone at D1000.
Now in AH II HT decides to sharpen the image so he renders the wing now at 4000 pixels ... 4 times the granularity. Now the same shot that you took in AH I that hit a pixel ... is a complete miss in AH II ... or the same shot that hit the surface in AH I that reported much damage ... now only reports slight damage ... cause of the refinement and increased granularity of rendering the plane. That is why people who flew AH I think that AH II gunnery changed ... gunnery has not changed ... the plane forms have changed ... they are harder to hit.
I refer you to my comments above under effectiveness of the 50 cal and the thin cloud layer. Furballers like to stay low. The thin cloud haze keeps them low.
Wrong ... we feel no need to climb that high to engage in A to A combat .. its a waste of time ... the thin cloud haze has no bearing on how we fly ... I can count on 3 fingers the amount of times that I have pierced that cloud layer since HT let it loose ... furballers dont go there ... its considered a waste of time.
The current unchangeable convergence for bombers seems to be around 300 and we bombers used to set it at 650.
Wrong again ... the fixed convergence on bombers is 600.
This made it difficult for somebody with cannon to come up on our 6 and sit there shooting at us. Before we could ping them at 1400 when they did that and start dismantling them at 1,000. Now we’d be foolish to start shooting at greater than 800. This gives a little more ability to the furballer who typically carries cannon because he/she can get closer in a sloppier approach and do damage.
Nope ... wrong again ... how successful do you think those guys in WW II were successful at shooting down planes ... I tell ya ... not very.
Consider this ... you are at high alt ... on oxygen ... windows open ... it freaking freezing ... the plane is buffeting all over the place from wind, ack, whatever. How acurate do you think that you would be in those circumstances ? If you can rip someone apart at D800 ... consider yourself extremely lucky ... and please don't ever moan about that to a real life bomber gunner ... he just might laugh in your face.
Again ... you WILL NOT see a furballer crawling up to bomber alt just to shoot them down ... unless there is nothing else within 1 sector ... Myself, and I would presume a lot of other furballers, give bombers a pass ... due to the fact that they will rip you a new stunninghunk and you will have wasted all that flight time and not have even engaged in a fight.
You made two glaring mistakes ... the fuel burn and the bomber gun convergence ... you haven't been around long enuff or you haven't been reading enuff.
All in all ... you are an honorable debator and its been fun ... <>
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Originally posted by Flayed1
Where ever you may be I will try to be there to make you whine. :D :aok
(http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6466/funpolice1yj.jpg)
ROFL:rofl
what no formation
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Originally posted by Flayed1
Welll CT sounds kinda fun but the way you behave makes me want to stay in the MA trying to find what ever fight you may be in and bomb your hangers... Looks like I could get alot more of a reaction out of you for doing this than from anyone else for bombing any other type of target.
Where ever you may be I will try to be there to make you whine. :D :aok
(http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6466/funpolice1yj.jpg)
Here ya go Slimey ... a "griefer" has reared its ugly head ... take a long look so that you can recognize them from afar.
No other object in AH life but to piss in someone else pool ... and you wonder why there is discourse.
Have you seen a furballer make such a statement/threat ?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Here ya go Slimey ... a "griefer" has reared its ugly head ... take a long look so that you can recognize them from afar.
No other object in AH life but to piss in someone else pool ... and you wonder why there is discourse.
Have you seen a furballer make such a statement/threat ?
This is great lol... The only reason for my post other than to add some humor to this thread that you seem to have totally missed, was in response to the nasty way you guys respond to this entire thread. When you guys (mostly seems Toad and Mars) make ugly posts to people that are asking a simple question it just makes me want to do the thing you guys seem to fear most.
I usually don't go around killing FH's just to mess up your fights, usually I do it in a base take or defence role but these posts well.......
I personally would love it if we could all coexist and be happy but you guys can only think of kicking anyone who like bombers out of what you guys seem to think is only a game for fighters.
I think the only reason that we haven't seen Furballers make what you seem to take as a threat is the fact that you can't ruin the oh how did Toad so elequently put it... "strateegereestas" fun. The most you seem to be able to do is sound like the Disney gopher and go CHEE CHEE CHEE CHEE.
Any way as to the subject of this thread I say pork Cities, Factories, and bases PORK them alll!!! Mwaaaaa HA HA HA You can see just by the response some have made on this thread that it makes a big difference in the game.
Oh BTW I'm gad you find me threatening.
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Flayed, bomb away!
Kill the fite, I'll look for another fite. No fites? Log for the nite; there are other games that offer action.
When toolshed boredom triumphs, there is always AA and lately BF2.
I prefer aviation but I prefer a fite above all.
Unlike some, I prefer engaging other humans in air combat to cruising around on autopilot plotting the destruction of inanimate game artifacts.
But thanks for highlighting Slap's point.
You and your ilk have done massive damage to a formerly great game.
PS: Jobu will come.
:rofl
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Slimy you are obviously an unreachable noob. You dont have a clue. nuff said there.
Flayed what When you guys (mostly seems Toad and Mars) make ugly posts to people
is so ugly in my posts? What is so terrible please take some quotes and show me.
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Mars I'm sorry ugly may have been a bit to strong of a word for your posts I was just in the moment... I still consider toads posts ugly showing distane for anyone who dosn't like to play his way and for people that affect his style of play.
Yours were close to the same, not quite so bad and I need not quote them. Anyone who wants to read them just needs to hit back and go to the beginning of this thread but hopefully they have read the entire thread in the first place.
And Toad I like a good fight as much as anyone else. In fact I've just discovered that the KI-61 can really work a furball but I am not limited to 1 type of game play I enjoy all aspects of play not just the hmm Air quake seems overused how bout Air Doom? type of play.
Anyway this is just gonna go round and round like all the other threads that get into the Furballer/Toolshedder debate so I'm off. I'll let you guys continue running around in circles. I'm off to kill some planes/sheds see ya.
Ohh btw I never new I had Ilk I feel honored... I AM THE KING OF ILK!!!!
HiTech kick me out of the game now I and my ILK have ruined your great product!!!!!!
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SlapShot,
Fuel Burn Rate:
You're absolutely correct. The fuel burn rate (burn multiplier is greater in AH2 at 2.0. I must have been distracted or sleepy when I wrote that AH1 had the same burn rate as AH2 has. Sorry about that. What I should have said was that the flight time available for the fuel load has changed and it has not changed in direct proportion to the multiplier. Examples based upon 100% internal fuel load calculating a multiplier of 1.0, max throttle at sea level:
AH1: AH2:
- P51D = 106 minutes. AH2 = 100 minutes
- P38L = 74 minutes AH2 = 73 minutes
- Spitfire Mk IX = 71 minutes AH2 = 44 minutes
- Bf 109E-4 = 50 minutes AH2 = 80 minutes
- Typhoon = 54 minutes AH2 = 48 minutes
- Nik-J = 88 minutes AH2 = 64 minutes
- La-7 = 56 minutes AH2 = 42 minutes
- Hurricane IId = 44 minutes AH2 = 64 minutes
And the list goes on. Some have been changed little and that small change is probably due to the difference in multipliers between AH1 and AH2, but others have changed a lot. As previously stated, some less and some more. A little seems to have been taken from the energy fighters and in some cases a lot has been given to turn fighters. You may draw your own conclusions from this and I’m sure you will. :)
25% Fuel Question:
I believe we’re on the same page here, though you may not agree. I did state that 25% did allow for defensive furballing above ones own porked field. I distinctly recall howls of frustration from furballers who wanted to go on the offensive and only had 25% fuel. As you profess yourself to enjoy the defensive type of furballing it’s not really surprising you didn’t find 25% that limiting. If you wish to say complaints came primarily from La and Yak drivers…..well in that I suppose you’d know better than I. I tend to lump the small, light, quick aircraft into the furball category. Even if they shouldn’t be driven that way by design, I think we both know they frequently are.
Fighters Coming Up to Play with Bombers in the 14 to 16K Range of Altitude:
I’m pretty sure you’re wrong when you state it’s futile and imply it isn’t done that much. I fly bombers fairly frequently and when I fly that low a lot more fighters come up to play than when I fly at 20 to 25K of altitude. They don’t necessarily have to have a “new stunninghunk” ripped in them, as you said, and the effort isn’t always futile. If a fighter is going to come up on my six, I’m going to drool until he comes in range of all those pretty guns I have aimed at his cooperatively stable plane. Just today my B24’s landed five kills from just such pilots. On the other hand a fighter who knows what he’s doing can mince my bombers with barely a scratch of damage to his own craft. A fighter who knows what he’s doing will fly a high angles attack and prevent me from getting a good lead on him. I’ve done this myself in a fighter and the results are something similar to a shark attacking a wounded seal.
Burn Times/Flight Times Different in AH1 versus AH2:
You say it’s mathematically impossible. If you do a straight calculation, you’re correct. But that’s the point I was trying to make. They didn’t make a straight calculation. They selectively changed some of the planes. As you can see from the table above, some of the changes are very slight and may not in fact be changes at all while others are a bit larger and some are whoppers. Flight time is perhaps not the only thing they changed. The other night I overheard another pilot comment that the Spitfire Mk IX’s engine had been reduced from AH1 to 40 lbs less. I assume he was speaking of manifold pressure, but perhaps you’d have a better handle on that than I. He took the position that it was a significant reduction in performance.
The 50 cal Damage Changes:
You mention an ack bunker. This is a new term for me. I’m familiar with ammo bunkers and if that’s what you mean, I agree. Fifty caliber weapons shouldn’t be able to take down such a bunker without really sustained fire. If you’re talking about field guns, I disagree both with you and the “realism” crowd. Those field guns are sitting naked, not in some bunker. Moreover when you bring any kind of 50 cal weapon to bear on something like a gun, it will in real life tear the crud out of it. I’ve seen demonstrations of a 50 cal browning eating a car, engine and all. When you sweep a field gun with six 50’s, it ought to do more than reflect your fire. They’ve adjusted the 50 damage for ack gun’s and I’m not clear on what else they may have adjusted it for. Part of the nerfing of the 50 comes from the closer shooting requirements. Regardless of the reason for this it takes away from the overall usefulness of the weapon. Finally, this is a computer simulation. The input/output interface is different for us than it would be if we were really flying the aircraft. Adjustments have to be made so that our experience is modeled in such a way as to give the same approximate results we’d have if flying the real aircraft. This means that historical reality must give way in order to give an accurate simulation of the experience.
Furballer Guns:
You state the Spit IX has 50 cal guns in addition to the 20 mm Hispano’s (awesome cannon by the way). It did in AH1, but they changed that in AH2. Now all you can get are the .303’s. Your far more experienced with the Spit than I, but my experience with the .303’s was that they were all but worthless in AH1. Some pilots even emptied them before takeoff, preferring to lose the weight and depend upon the superlative performance of the Hispano’s. While 50’s were better than .303’s, they’re nothing to the Hispano’s. In any case, my comment’s were designed to show the differential in impact between BnZ and TnB style aircraft in AH2 versus AH1. You need to be closer in AH2 to make any of the guns work well. This plays better for a TnB than a BnZ aircraft.
Cloud Haze Layer Keeping Furballers Low:
I misstated this and I apologize for the confusion. I intended to indicate that the bombers are kept lower by the haze and that permits the furballers to stay lower in the furball and wander up to the bombers as well. They don’t have to expend so much time reaching us as if were at 20K.
Bomber Convergence:
Bomber convergence is set to 600? Where did you find that out? It really feels more like 300 to the group of pilot’s I fly with. Can you refer me to documentation? I’m not challenging your statement. I’d just really like to get more information on it.
Regarding the Effective Range of Bombers Guns:
My comparison was between AH1 and AH2. I was able to shoot fighters at greater range than in AH2. I’m sure the guys in WWII not, as you say, very successful in shooting down enemy fighters. But then I doubt enemy fighter crawled up nice and steady on their six and sat there shooting at the bombers. People in AH do that. Actually a surprising number do that. Disturbingly so. In AH1 the fighters were more prone to high angle attacks than in AH2. Occasionally a fighter will perform high angle attacks on me and in that situation I’ve got little chance of saving my family jewels. Then you’d be correct to say I’d be lucky to dismantle someone out at 800. But when they just sit there on my six with like six or more 50’s per plane blazing at them, it’s not much of a trick to trim their wings. If a WWII gunner had that opportunity I can’t help but think he’d have the same result.
Furballers do “crawl up to me”. They do it all the time. They do it because I’m ticking them off by bombing their radar, troops and ordinance as well as putting large dents in their factories and cities. I bomb these things in cooperation with the overall strategy of my country as I see it unfold. Sometimes it’s good to leave some strats alone and sometimes it’s good to pork as many fields as you can.
It’s late, I’m tired and I hope I haven’t made any further mistakes in grammar, style, syntax, spelling and ….oh yeah…..facts. lol This thread has taken a lot more time than I initially budgeted and I hope I can resist making another post on it regardless of the response to my posting.
<> SlapShot
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Firstly, I'll deal with the qoute below. Which will prove you are wrong yet again. As I have previuosly stated your adept at manipulating context to your own weak points. Points that have absolutly bugger all do do with the ethos of the thread.
Lynx my last post was it with you. You say little and type much. I am not going wade through your BS. Your the moron that posted about score and said you didn't, your the moron that can't understand a field being down for three hours is a bad thing. Your no longer worth the effort. I had mt laugh at you but now I'm done. You can have the last post.
My reply to Slimey-j before Toad or yourself pitched in......
Don't get put off by some of the negative replies. If you like bombing go ahead and strat the enemy silly. It does slow their regain down which helps the push. Also you, as a bomber, get loadsa pekies / points / rank. ....... Indeeed the first instance of the word "rank" being used. Again not in the context of the point your trying to make. If at all you had a point.
The second time the word "rank" being used was by Toad
May the search for rank, glory and ticker-tape "We won the WAR!" parades so consume them that they forsake the MA forever and ever.
A-freakin-gain. Not in any context of your benign twittering.
Third time "rank"was used was my reply to you, as follows;-This thread has nothing to with rank. When you read it you'll see it's about todays strat system ... . Semantically the first sentence on it's own would be misunderstud but it wasn't. What does the next line say? A line that yet again you have chosen to neglect, forget, override or darn right ignore for your own purposes. You selectively chose a sentence to drive it out of context. The following is how you posted it and the point you have tried making of the above.
This thread has nothing to with rank.
So why are you the first one to bring it up, twice for that matter.
My reply to you was :- I didn't is the simple answere. I mentioned Strat bombing helps rank in a reply to slimey-J. Perhaps you have been befuddled my the word "Statistics", in a reply to Toad.
Mars bar me ol congealed chocolate fuge. You are not befuddled you are selective, especially when losing the arguement. You couldn't debate yourself outta that brown papper bag I once spoke of. You couldn't even follow replies, threads or the ethos. I bet you can't even read a freakin road map without arguing the toss. Twice now I have proven you to be a right plonker and I'll do it a third time as follows :-
Your quote as above
your the moron that can't understand a field being down for three hours is a bad thing.
WTF is it with you. For the ump-teenth-time "IN TODAYS STRAT SYSTEM" fields can't go down that long. . It's akin to you arguing this point ---->"If my Aunty had b***s she'd be my Uncle"
Secondly
We speak from wisdom and expieriance, not our arses like my buddy Lynx. My point to you was relax and learn the game before you start going off half cocked on guys like slapshot or toad, all your doing is showing your newbness. Take it for what you want.
If, especially, you and a few others were not so sarcastic or darn right RUDE. These new guys may take on board what your trying to tell them.
Morph and SuerDud being the first "furball" guys to have contributed "Wisdom" in a convivial manner. You may want to take a leaf from their book next time....
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Ok, this is me signing out of this thread, it's turning into FAR too much of a pissing match--from BOTH SIDES--for my interest level.
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You know.....I just took another look at the start of this thread and realize how far off the initial question I strayed.
Bombing strats like Factory installations and Cities does have an effect. How much this effects recovery times within the Zone in question is something I don't know. I know that the more you down a City or Factory installation the greater the recovery time for the Strats. Percentages and what that means in real time is something I haven't seen and would be interested in knowing.
My personal progression if bombing for long term effect is to bomb Cities first, Factory installations second and that individual field strats third. I don’t often have time for that so bombing field strats is usually the way I go.
Bottom line on bombing Factories and Cities? The more you do it, the greater effect.
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Originally posted by ChopSaw
You know.....I just took another look at the start of this thread and realize how far off the initial question I strated
Welcome to the boards:D
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I’m pretty sure you’re wrong when you state it’s futile and imply it isn’t done that much. I fly bombers fairly frequently and when I fly that low a lot more fighters come up to play than when I fly at 20 to 25K of altitude.
You are not attracting the "furball" crowd at that altitude ... you are attracting the Cherry Pickers who like to sit above a furball and pick people off when they are busy.
You mention an ack bunker. This is a new term for me. I’m familiar with ammo bunkers and if that’s what you mean, I agree. Fifty caliber weapons shouldn’t be able to take down such a bunker without really sustained fire. If you’re talking about field guns, I disagree both with you and the “realism” crowd. Those field guns are sitting naked, not in some bunker. Moreover when you bring any kind of 50 cal weapon to bear on something like a gun, it will in real life tear the crud out of it. I’ve seen demonstrations of a 50 cal browning eating a car, engine and all.
You will not see sandbags surrounding a field ack ... but its damage value was changed to simulate that effect. Sorry, but that just the way it is ... with that, the 50 cals are no different now than they were before.
You need to be closer in AH2 to make any of the guns work well. This plays better for a TnB than a BnZ aircraft.
You may have a point there, at least as far as I am concerned ... I am a horrible shot so I need to get up close and personal ... but guys like Levi, Stang, Morph, Furball, Apar ... they have no problem bringing home (repeatedly) 10+ kills per sortie when playing the BnZ game ... me, I am estatic if I can bag 5.
I misstated this and I apologize for the confusion. I intended to indicate that the bombers are kept lower by the haze and that permits the furballers to stay lower in the furball and wander up to the bombers as well. They don’t have to expend so much time reaching us as if were at 20K.
One more time ... you will not find furballers flying at 13K-14K ... what you are seeing are the Cherry Pickers.
3K to 14K in a Spit V or a Hurri IIC ... is an eternity ... as far as I am concerned.
Following Saxman out the door.
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With reference strat bombing Cities and factories Midnight makes a valid point about Zone base capture on the larger maps and Morph makes an equally valid point about the small ones.
When it comes to actually bombing these targets it's important to take the correct fuel load, bomb load and use the correct salvo. You'll find certain bombers are best suited for cities and others for factories. There is nothing stopping you taking a set of Bostons out if you feel like it but they are less effective in terms of damage inflicted / required.
Bombing accuratly is so simple now it's almost lazer like. The only thing required for accuracy is constant speed and level flight. The salvo I use is dot salvo 1 dot delay 0.05 (default delay). The reason being I can pick out a cluster of buildings at 20,000 feet or more and hit it or near as damn. Allowing the blast effect to score damage. You'll find practise makes perfect.
My personal favourites are the Lancaster, B17 and the B26 in that order. When I use bombers I do so at alt and my experience, for what it's worth, may be of value to new Strat bomber guys.
The Lanc has great grange, high alt speed and the best bomb load out in Aces High. I think everyone is aware of it's draw backs. No bottom turret very slow climber and tops out around 22,000ft for accuracy. In real life they didn't go much over 19,000 ft. I take the 14 x 1k load out with 25% or 50% fuel depending if I want to step away from the PC for 45 min :D The Lanc is best for all Strat targets and especially the Cities. The 1k lb,ers make a terrific impack with a brilliant blast radius. Blowing me own trumpet here I can make just 3 passes on a city and it will be below 25% with at least 2 bombs left. Using all 14 the best I'v done is 9% of the city remaining.
The B17 is great against the factories. Fantastic extreme high alt bomber. Takes loads of damage and hard to set on fire. Good load out of 500's or 250's. Great range with 50% or 75% fuel and in my opinion has little to no draw backs other than the top turret doesn't fire upwards . The 500's have a decent blast radius. The 250's as you would expect don't have the best blast radius but there is more of them. The first 3 passes on any strat target will inflict the most damage, You still have bombs left for more passes on those out of the way structures.
B26 is low to meduim alt bomber. I rarly use it above 10,000 feet and never below 6,000 feet. Even at these alts you will attract fighters like a parasite fish on a shark. 50% to 75% is usually more than enough fuel. It's got great guns but like the Lancaster no bottom turret. I use the 250's on factories. Using this bomber is like having sex out doors. Quickly in quickly out befor you get cought. Go at it like mad on the first three passes but if the coast is clear theres ords left for the odd structure. A good perk farming tool if you like collecting bomber perks.
As for field porking bomber runs not hanger banging I hasten to add. Any bomber is good but I favour the b26 with the 250's and 75% fuel. You can work one field over or, for instance, barracks or dar on a number of fields. If I feel there's time or the arena is slow I'll pork bomber run in B17's at extreme alt with the 500's.
All the best and keep a good line.:aok