Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ICU2 on January 23, 2006, 12:05:53 PM
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I've been in AH for a month now and I see a lot of comments about head on shots. I was wondering why there is a stygma against it?
It was a normal occurance in ww2. Both ac have the opportunity to strike the other so I don't see what the fuss is about.
icu2
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People complain about it ad nauseam. If you go for the HO, 9-10 times the other guy is too. The one time you don't, they do and they get you.
This is just one more thing for people to complain about.
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HO shots are artificially easier in AH than IRL and that allows far lesser skilled players to shoot down better players by leveraging this "feature." When you're new, it seems like a weird thing to gripe about. Once you get better you'll quickly get frustrated with it too.
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It was a normal occurance in ww2.
Yes it was used in WWII ... but it was far from a "normal occurrance".
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
.....that allows far lesser skilled players to shoot down better players by leveraging this "feature."
There's a bit of true in that but I see another side of the coin. If i'm in a FW-190 A8 with a busted aileron, a smoking engine and a bleeding pilot what chance do I have to compete with the much nimble fresh painted La-7 or Spit 16? What do i have to do? Fly straight and wait until the inevitable happens, or take my chances in a HO hoping the heavy cannons and big armored radial engine will save me from certain death?
I try to avoid as much as is possible but sometimes HO is all you have left.
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Originally posted by ICU2
I've been in AH for a month now and I see a lot of comments about head on shots. I was wondering why there is a stygma against it?
It was a normal occurance in ww2. Both ac have the opportunity to strike the other so I don't see what the fuss is about.
icu2
:lol Lets say this is WWII and you are a real fighter pilot with a real life to waste. would you be making pass after pass after pass HO? I will guess no.
People get upset when this is all they see. As DoK said, once you have the ability to fight, you will look down upon the dweeb that comees in while you are fighting 3 of his friends, fires short burst at you comming out of a turn, takes your engine out and runs 5 sectors to safety telling you it takes 2 to HO. IT DOES NOT
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It takes two to joust, one tool with hispanos to HO.
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This is from Luther's Soviet fighter tactics in 1942
http://luthier.stormloader.com/SFTacticsIII.htm (http://luthier.stormloader.com/SFTacticsIII.htm)
..........The following information about German tactics is derived from experience of our pilots that fought the FW-190.
Enemy mostly stays in obsolete formations when flying, i.e. closely spaced pairs, etc.
Germans will position their fighters at different altitudes, especially when expecting to encounter our fighters. FW-190 will fly at 1,500-2,500 meters and Me-109G at 3,500-4,000 meters. They interact in the following manner:
FW-190 will attempt to close with our fighters hoping to get behind them and attack suddenly. If that maneuver is unsuccessful they will even attack head-on relying on their superb firepower . This will also break up our battle formations to allow Me-109Gs to attack our fighters as well. Me-109G will usually perform boom-n-zoom attacks using superior airspeed after their dive.
FW-190 will commit to the fight even if our battle formation is not broken, preferring left turning fights. There has been cases of such turning fights lasting quite a long time, with multiple planes from both sides involved in each engagement. .....
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I hate HOing because my bullets ALWAYS turn to rubber in a HO. 10 pings in the engine of a Spit XVI and it doesn't even make him smoke? WTF!
That, I think, is one place where people get most bent out of shape by repeated HOing. Especially when the HO insists on doing it in a plane that clearly outclasses yours in some capability that's actually useful in a "normal" confrontation (whether it's TnB, E or BnZ).
Sometimes I've also found it difficult to judge on some aircraft whether he's just REALLY flying slow or flying towards you. Also some aircraft have this irritating ability to 180 practically on a dime and turn a tail-chase or even full-plane deflection shot into a HO (anyone ELSE been in a diving tail chase against a 110 only to have him do a yawing 180 and suddenly be sucking on cannon fire?)
The only HO I've ever won was against a Goon. :D
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HO shots are only taken by pilots that don't know how to fight properly, or they just want to kill and run, and just want a good score. its very sad, and skilless.
going for a guys six instead of his nose means there is no danger to you, and you can kill more easily. i have no idea why people prefer to HO. really silly
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What it really comes down to is the HO shot is easy.Virtual pilots such as myself like to outmanuver the other pilot for the 6 kill.It's kind of a contest too me and usually makes for a way better fight when you and the other pilot are trying for the same thing.
I love it when people try to HO me,it let's me know that they are new and they suck then it's just a matter of 2 -3 moves and the end for them.
It is sad however that the only real manuver they know is lining up for the HO shot.
You simply merge with them like you are going to HO then fly underneath them full elevator roll straight up then flip over and be on them.This manuver works really well when they have alt on you because then they are already travelling downward,so by climbing it confuses them and they lose sight of you faster.
This is just my Opinion take it for what it's worth.
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i like it when i try to up in a hurri, and someone tries to face shoot me on the vulch...now that is good clean fun. he knows he has the advantage, so instead of taking the cowardly way out by shooting me in the back on take-off, he comes in for the face shot....woot:)
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Sure ... a 190 w/4x20mm has a distinct firepower edge over a Yak with only 1x20mm. And given the superior training and experience of the Luftwaffe at the time, they probably had better odds in such a head-on engagement.
But in AH there are so many multi-cannon birds that victory becomes more of a crapshoot if all you do is HO. By comitting to a HO you are more or less rolling the dice on every crossing pass. Where's the skill in that?
Why do people do it? Because the HO shot (a) is the only one you are pretty sure to get, (b) is able to do more damage than any other shot, and (c) requires no skill or brainpower.
In a 1-on-1, yeah, it takes two to tango. But in a furball where you don't have the energy to avoid a HO shot, that's where that rule goes out the window.
HO should be a tactic of last resort, or a tactic to penetrate the defensive fire of a bomber formation. In AH, it is the primary tactic for probably half the players in the air.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
You simply merge with them like you are going to HO then fly underneath them full elevator roll straight up then flip over and be on them.This manuver works really well when they have alt on you because then they are already travelling downward,so by climbing it confuses them and they lose sight of you faster.
This is just my Opinion take it for what it's worth.
People say that in the BBS a lot, but it does not work. Too many assumptions. Read at what you wrote. They are already traveling downward so you will try and fly under them? Three things are going to happen:
If he has alt you just offered him a canopy shot.
Co alt, you gave him the advantage by pushing your nose down and a shot.
If you did not die due to 1 and 2, he can safelly extend for a sector so he can try again.
HOs are not easy to avoid once you are withing guns range and they do not guranty you a kill. Unless the bad guy has been here for a week or two.
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Originally posted by wetrat
It takes two to joust, one tool with hispanos to HO.
this is the most true statement in this thread
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Originally posted by SlapShot
It was a normal occurance in ww2.
Yes it was used in WWII ... but it was far from a "normal occurrance".
I was just reading last night that the STANDARD response to an attack by a 190 on a spit 5 was to turn and offer an HO. I'll get the book citation for you tonight.
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99% of the time when i "HO" someone they were trying to "HO"
me .... as an example u are on someones six giving chase
they decide you are getting too close and turn around...
then they fly straight at you....
both parties open fire and 1 goes down
usually the person who goes down promptly types
on 200 channel "dam HOing dweeb"
sorry if I get u in my gunsight i'm gonna open fire and i dont care
if i'm on your six your 3 o'clock or head to head
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ditto shubie -
read somewhere about the p47 pilots doing the same thing to 109s - if they were gonna get bounced, they'd turn and HO em :)
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HO shots are artificially easier in AH than IRL and that allows far lesser skilled players to shoot down better players by leveraging this "feature."
If it is easier in AH for a noob, then wouldn't it be even easier for a 'vet'?
I agree with Autopilot, a maneuvering fight is a lot more fun than flying straight and having one pass at someone.
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Originally posted by rshubert
I was just reading last night that the STANDARD response to an attack by a 190 on a spit 5 was to turn and offer an HO. I'll get the book citation for you tonight.
That still won't make it "normal" when considering all the other planes that flew and fought
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This being only the beginning of my third week in AH (my first flight sim of any kind - so still figuring out what I can do in a plane) I can honestly tell you I hate HO's. I enjoy the challange of trying to work for position and the shot .. and I am starting to get the feel for it a bit. (Course I have had my prettythang handed to me more than a few times in such manners that still has me shaking my head)
What I do have problems with is deciding on how to get out of a HO. Being new .. and clearly less skilled than 90% of the population here ... I have tried a few different methods ... ussually resulting in my tail getting shot off .. or pilot wounded. So what normally now happens is ... Evilbish01 or Evilrook01 heads into HO position ... and I "freeze" unable to decide what to do. In the end I wind up crossing my fingers and mashing the fire button because its to late to do anything else. Lose more of em than I win ... and almost always come out of it in bad shape regardless.
Any vets want to share tried and true methods of moving out of HO situation (without getting tail shot off of course) would be appreciated.
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Originally posted by rshubert
I was just reading last night that the STANDARD response to an attack by a 190 on a spit 5 was to turn and offer an HO. I'll get the book citation for you tonight.
they only did that because the 190's were faster, and presented a big threat if they were on your tail. so they would go head on to make sure the 190's had their sights on them for as little time as possible. then they'd rely on better turning ability and acceleration to turn fight the 190's to death. they wouldn't go head on to take a shot, they'd do it to make the closure a lot faster, making it a harder shot
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zomg I'll HO joo!
Just play the game the best you can. If you have to resort to the HO for a victory, then do it. I rarely get caught in a HO situation that I don't want to be in.
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Originally posted by Spiked
This being only the beginning of my third week in AH (my first flight sim of any kind - so still figuring out what I can do in a plane) I can honestly tell you I hate HO's. I enjoy the challange of trying to work for position and the shot .. and I am starting to get the feel for it a bit. (Course I have had my prettythang handed to me more than a few times in such manners that still has me shaking my head)
What I do have problems with is deciding on how to get out of a HO. Being new .. and clearly less skilled than 90% of the population here ... I have tried a few different methods ... ussually resulting in my tail getting shot off .. or pilot wounded. So what normally now happens is ... Evilbish01 or Evilrook01 heads into HO position ... and I "freeze" unable to decide what to do. In the end I wind up crossing my fingers and mashing the fire button because its to late to do anything else. Lose more of em than I win ... and almost always come out of it in bad shape regardless.
Any vets want to share tried and true methods of moving out of HO situation (without getting tail shot off of course) would be appreciated.
simple one, and the most effective is to just push the nose down a little if you're going right for each other. its harder to shoot, and won't always work, but you dont loose e, you gain some, which you use right after by doing a straight immelman onto his six, while he begins his turn. you follow in lead pursuit, and turn inside him, closing the gap, and blast him to bits. works a lot of the time for me. and in the event that that doesnt work and the dweeb still manages to get you in ho, you get on 200 and shout at the dweeb for hoing you when you blatantly wanted to fight. most people get very annoyed by HO dweebs, so you're sure to have plenty of support.
remember, its not only how great a pilot you are, but how good you are at putting lame dweebs in their place on ch 200 lol
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Turning and offering a ho is a sure way to distract ANY guy, not just a 190 pilot.
Oh, wait, I'm thinking the wrong kind of ho!
:D
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If he has alt you just offered him a canopy shot.
Co alt, you gave him the advantage by pushing your nose down and a shot.
Most that agree with you usually end up virtually dead.The whole point of diving under them is too make them go low and think they are gonna get a canopy shot,which makes them target fixed and they are more target fixed than they are flying right.
Granted it takes some practice to master this manuver but when mastered it works very well.But don't take my word for it you just keep on HO'ing :aok
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
HO shots are artificially easier in AH than IRL and that allows far lesser skilled players to shoot down better players by leveraging this "feature." When you're new, it seems like a weird thing to gripe about. Once you get better you'll quickly get frustrated with it too.
A better player would not get suckerd in by a newby going for an HO.
Remember it takes to nutts to fill a sac.
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Originally posted by rshubert
I was just reading last night that the STANDARD response to an attack by a 190 on a spit 5 was to turn and offer an HO. I'll get the book citation for you tonight.
Here's the danger in using the history as justification.
It WAS life and death for those guys. As a last resort you'd HO, but you wouldn't go looking for it. Make a slip and your life is over.
At no time in AH is anyone really dying so it doesn't take the same kind of, for lack of a better word, courage to take the risk that you'd miss, collide, etc.
If we die to a HO, we get a brand new plane and a brand new life in the game.
It just isn't the same thing.
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Ho's are part of the game just as they were in real life. I have been HO'd by some of the so called best sticks in the game (of course I was enlightened that I HO'd them not the other way around). I find with time and experience the better I get at avoiding them, but there is still some you just can't avoid. Or you'll end up with a pilot wound or the butt of your plane falling off.
Sometimes it's just principle if some guy keeps upping p-series & f-series planes that only hold mg's and HO'n all the way through I have no problem abliging him in my 110 or hurricane, la7, etc. If you're dumb enough to bring MG to a Cannon fight deal with the conciquences.
ICU2- The guys flying for rank & prestige are the main complainers, In a way they are valid complaints. If you put in the time to aquire the skill to be a top stick in the game. You will find that there is only a handfull of players you will come up against that you can't whoop, but when greated with an HO skill goes out the window. It throws a huge chaos factor into the game, so the guys who have learned what needs to be done to get a 5 kill sortie and land it. Do not like being taken down by some joe shmoe throwing out hail-mary shots. There is no right and wrong, so don't let the highschool drama queens hold you back if you wanna HO do it to your little hearts content. But I'm sure that the longer you play you will lose interest because it's virtually impossible to control the outcome. If you want to be a truly good stick, you can't have luck be part of your game. Besides you will find that turning an encounter around and getting a kill on someones six that opened with a forced HO is 5 times more gratifying than a HO/Collision kill.
JMFJ
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I remember reading somewhere several years ago that HO attacks were used at first but were later strongly advised against and al but given up on because it was leading to too many collisions.
In the game I do not consider myself to be among the elete pilots. But I dont think Im any slouch either.
When I first came here I used to go for the HO all the time.
Even on the boards here I used to say "if your in my gunsight, Im shooting"
During that time I found that 90% of the people I couldnt HO, I couldnt kill.
I decided to stop going for the HO and go more for position.
I died alot at first but I found that in the time I was spending trying to line my sight up and firing the HO shots I was now instead usig to position myself for my next move and then found myself getting better and better. And getting killed alot less then I did when I used to HO all the time.
Found the game more fun too. because it become more like a chess match then a point and click shoot em up.
I still HO occasionally but typically as a retaliation to someone trying to or having HO'd me.
Or if Im hopelessly outnumbered. But even then not always.
I have found that HO's are NOT always avoidable. Like someone else said about someone comming out of a turn or simply they get lucky i guessing which way your going to avoid it.
I know I know technically thats not an HO shot but a deflection shot. Sorry but I still consider deflection shots of only a few degrees an HO.
For that matter probably 95% of all HO shots are technically deflection
shots because its very rare that planes actually approach each other are a 0 degree angle from one another. That doesnt mean its not an HO
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As a last resort you'd HO, but you wouldn't go looking for it
The museum that i volunteer at has an after flight pilot report stating that him and his squaddies were at 20-K in P-47's when they spotted a large group of 109's.Then he describes the forward deflection shot that himself and the german pilot took at each other.He then explains that he only had 2 guns left working and his K-14 gunsight no longer worked,he reversed then rolled over on too the 109's 6 and continued firing.He stated that he never saw a chute or anyone bailing.
The " Forward Deflection " shot was more common than you think,and this is just one Pilot's accounts of what happened.
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There are a few "proper" places for a HO.
While one does involve face-shooting, none involve planes. Lets keep things in perspective.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
A better player would not get suckerd in by a newby going for an HO.
Remember it takes to nutts to fill a sac.
You don't always have a choice, like if you're already in a fight - which is what the HO-dweebs are counting on.
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Originally posted by JMFJ
ICU2- The guys flying for rank & prestige are the main complainers...
I would tend to disagree with this statement. Players from all strata of the game complain.
The only problem I have is with the dyed in the wool Ho Monkeys. These are the guys that are under the mistaken impression that Ho's are all that planes like the Fw, P51 and 109 are capable of. These folks are simply sad, because they never take a chance or the time to work for a 6 shot. These are the only guys I give grief to.
As for the general ease of the headon shot...I believe that its over use stems from the fact that dying is of little consequence. Stop and think about it....would anyone really want to play Chicken at mach 1.2? You would need to have a death wish.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Here's the danger in using the history as justification.
It WAS life and death for those guys. As a last resort you'd HO, but you wouldn't go looking for it. Make a slip and your life is over.
At no time in AH is anyone really dying so it doesn't take the same kind of, for lack of a better word, courage to take the risk that you'd miss, collide, etc.
If we die to a HO, we get a brand new plane and a brand new life in the game.
It just isn't the same thing.
Way to much sense going on in this post ... please edit it for content.
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The main reason that people complain about "HO"ing is because way back in the good 'ole Air Warrior days, the game was fixed so that a HO had a low to non-existant chance of sucess. Most people did not HO because it was a waste of time.
THen, when AW folded and the old sticks came here, and found that people could HO them and kill them, they started complaining and haven't shut up since.
Then, as the new players come and learn, and see the older players complaining about HO's, they think that's part of the culture and adopt the "anti-HO" attitude 'cuz that's what the vets are saying.
This of course, flies in the face of the obvious fact that the HO wa a valid tactic that was used in WWII. All of these cries for "more realism" are ao phony when they cry because they were realisticallly shot down with a valid and often used WWII a/c tactic.
So, in summary, people complain about HO's because they have been taught to complain about HO's. THere is nothing ing the rules against them, they were used quite regularlly in WWII, and there is no reason to not use them in AH.
As someone stated above, if an enemy a/c is in my sights, I fire - simple as that.
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Originally posted by JMFJ
... The guys flying for rank & prestige are the main complainers, In a way they are valid complaints. ...
Puh-leaze.
If you read through this forum regularly, you'll see that most of the frequent contributors are the ones who outright say they don't care about their rank or their perks. They are looking out for the good of the game as a whole. That's the way it's always been. Hell, that's kind of how HT started WarBirds.
Easy HO kills have been a problem in these games for almost two decades. The only positive aspect they add is to allow n00bs to get kills their first day.
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Originally posted by JAWS2003
This is from Luther's Soviet fighter tactics in 1942
FW-190 will attempt to close with our fighters hoping to get behind them and attack suddenly. If that maneuver is unsuccessful they will even attack head-on relying on their superb firepower .
OK, a couple of thoughts about this.
First, define "head-on". Any forward quarter attack can be considered "head-on" but zero degrees of aspect i.e., both aircraft on exactly the same flight path headed toward each other is suicide. No pilot in his right mind would maneuver intentionally to this position and maintain it to the merge although it can and does happen unintentionally. Even if he's successful in killing the other fighter physics is physics and he will be fragged by the debris which don't stop just because they're no longer part of the same structure. Instead, you have a lot of aluminum, steel and human remains "bullets" flying in close formation with a total closure speed of 800 kts. If both fighters miss you still have an extremely high probability of a collision as you have no idea if he's going to push, pull or roll at the last second (remember again that total closure may be upwards of 800 kts). The probability of a collision is so high that US fighter training ROE requires pilots to maneuver to pass left to left (to be predictable) and call out the direction of the pass if they're on the same frequency. Same for passing high or low. Before anyone says "yeah, but jets have even more closure" the ROE applies regardless of your speed. Also, I'm not saying that in wartime pilots won't fly at the edge of the smartness envelope but you would never HO till you merge any more than you'd intentionally dive into a tank to strafe it. Bottom line is that when you see legitimate documentation about "head-on" tactics they're really talking about any forward quarter approach EXCEPT 0 aspect and assume you're not trying to ram and will break away BEFORE you see the whites of their eyes. If you read anything different they're using a lot of hyperbole and drama like Yeager does when he claims to be able to see enemy fighters 50 miles away.
Regarding the Spit V tactic, they're talking about turning into the adversary to make a neutral merge, i.e., with neither aircraft having angles and denying the adversary separation. At best, the Spit with it's superior turn, may even be able to early turn the 190. At worse, the minimal separation may allow a forward quarter shot by the 190 but neither would boresight the other till the merge as you see in AH.
This is the "gaming" part of AH...not those passes that are forward quarter with some aspect or the unintentional "hey he just showed up right on my nose" but those players that boresight the other aircraft and hold the trigger down hoping the target breaks away giving him angles or blows up leaving nothing but a smoke cloud before they hit. I believe this is the "HO" that most gripe about. Just tonight, several guys were complaining about a HOing 190 (who would have thought it!!!) and I had him try it to me two or three times and on each pass he just kept his pipper on me and he missed only due to my maneuvers (plus I was in a Hurri which can take a lot of hits). Eventually I'd had enough so boresighted him on the next pass and held the trigger down to see what he would do He kept coming and made absolutely no attempt to avoid. He took a bunch of hits (as did I) and we collided (OK, guess that makes me a one-day-HO-dweeb but I got the kill). This, at least to me, is proof that he was doing exactly what I thought. Yesterday a certain 109 "pilot" got pissed I downed him, immediately uped another and headed straight in for the ram. I looked at the film and it appears that he didn't even pull the trigger.
You will not find a HO WITH NO ATTEMPT TO AVOID part of any fighter pilot's training.
Mace
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
You don't always have a choice, like if you're already in a fight - which is what the HO-dweebs are counting on.
Bullcrap turn the plane ,dive the plane or climb there are any number of ways to avoid it.
People cry about it because they have tried it over and over and come out on the short end of the stick.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Bullcrap turn the plane ,dive the plane or climb there are any number of ways to avoid it.
People cry about it because they have tried it over and over and come out on the short end of the stick.
Hardly. He was talking about being in a fight and you could very well be too slow to maneuver and/or caught between a rock and a hard place with the only choices being to accept the HO or roll out and have the guy on your tail hose you.
People probably do "cry about it" more than they should, especially when it's inadvertant or really just a forward quarter attack but the head-on-till-they-hit-dweebs are out there.
Mace
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Bullcrap turn the plane ,dive the plane or climb there are any number of ways to avoid it.
People cry about it because they have tried it over and over and come out on the short end of the stick.
You either have no clue what you are talking about or are a troll.
Or both.
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the reason people go head on is not always because one of the two intends on a headon, but because it is a game of chicken, the first person to break has given up the attack position and is now forced to evade the others maneuvers. no one wants to be the "chased".
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Listen, people will ALWAYS complain about HO's. People will always complain about P-51's running away, people will always complain about the Spit's turn on a dime ability, people will always complain about someone shooting at long distance, people will always complain about the FM, DM, graphics, controls, tactics, strategy, base cap, bombers, bombers guns, bombers alt, alt, lack of alt, carriers, carriers guns, CV waypoints, trees, trees near fields, trees that are "1k high" trees that are solid, trees that aren't, bushes, hard bushes, small bushes, vulchers, hanger-droppers, ord killers, Tempest pilots, fuel burn, flaps, flaps on American planes, flaps on the 109, flaps on flaps, guncam films, ah guncam films, rubber bullets, lag, ping, netcode, rails, convergence settings, ditches, crashes, landing, text buffer, kill buffer, swearing, sportsmanship, smoke, frame rates, fires, alt monkeys, deck drivers, the MOILs, Tigers, Panzers, no Sherman, bouncing tanks, tank damage, and so on...
Its a never-ending war that no one will ever win because its pointless.
On topic, HO'ing is a way to shoot someone down. If you were in my sights, regardless of you coming to me, away, over, under, or I'm doing the same, then I'm going to pull the trigger. I won't spray, I'm usually in a 109 so hard-hitting ammo isn't plenty.
Theres no rewind button, you can't go back and start over. If you got shot down, then just re-up and fly.
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I still advocate it takes two to HO............
I dont hold with the "low e victim" theory.......
In fact its my experience that the low e victim is invariably the one to "offer" the head on as a manouvre of last resort to balance e or chance the exchange.
It is possible that SA is challenged in a furball and that a HO has been established "accidentally" but it still takes two to hold the 180 degree merge even if only one is guns ablazing.............
That is the only HO IMO
The rest are snap shots taken as merge angles briefly cross........... some are "clever" some are "foolish" some are miss timed deflection shots...its a fine line IMO but they are not HO's.
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Originally posted by bagrat
the reason people go head on is not always because one of the two intends on a headon, but because it is a game of chicken, the first person to break has given up the attack position and is now forced to evade the others maneuvers. no one wants to be the "chased".
(cough) lead turn (cough)
here is what I hate/love.
It's the pilot that points his nose at everything in the sky spraying away, and making no attempt to do anything but face shoot. They just fly around, point their nose, shoot, and keep on trucking. I hate it when I can't catch them due to them being in a much faster ride. I LOVE it when I DO catch them, because I tend to fire a few rounds over their cockpit to get their attention, then watch as they flounder around with absolutely no idea what the heck to do. For some reason I get a kick out of that, and I tend to draw it out some.
Head on's are desperation moves. A forward quarter shot isn't a head on. What you read @ WW2 pilots taking forward quarter shots are valid attacks. Pointing your nose at the nme's nose spraying away wasn't. No pilot in their right mind would give an nme that large of a chance to kill them, which is what a HO/Joust is. It's also why many of the "vet's" don't like them. Why risk damage to my plane, let alone death? It's an easy shot to make, as Dok pointed out, but it's also just as easy to get hit. When I take off, I plan on landing, and letting some pilot with no clue how to fight face spray me and preventing it is not in the cards typically. I don't mind getting beat. I DO mind getting face shot by some 1 trick noob that is clueless. (fyi I almost never get ho'd. Maybe 3-4 times a tour tops do I get damaged from one)
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LOL this thread is just silly......:rofl
I find if someone offers a HO just take it. I usually seem to have better aim then them anyway. :D Also I find the 9T works well for all my HOing needs I love it when someone comes after me going for a HO in well any plane really. Its like trying to HO a field ACK gun lol and so many times they will go right for it I guess thinking I don't have many guns I couldn't possibly win.
I used to try to avoid all HO's but usually would get hit what ever way I tried to get out of the way, I survive much more just to take it and kill the HO'er
Oh and who was that back some where in the thread that said the only HO he ever won was against a goon? Back in AH1 I had some guy complain about me HOin his goon with my Zeke he was at like 10K with no other NMY in sight to help him. I just had to chuckle at him and ask if it really mattered lol, imop he was a dead goon anyway you look at it.:lol
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I'm with Tilt.
I also take it that there is no such thing as unavoidable HOs. If someone forces the other guy to go into a head-on angle with such perfect timing that there is no time to maneuver out of that way, then by all means that itself is a result of being outmaneuvered. Also, if one tries to move away from the HO by maneuvering aside, but the other guy still forces a shot in then by all means he deserves that kill.
That being said, my take on the original poster's question is this:
...
Sometimes HOs are indeed frustrating.
The basic premise of combat maneuvering is to survive and shoot down the enemy plane without being shot down yourself. Therefore, anybody who takes a certain bit of pride in his skills, has a basic mindset to respect those who also try to fight it out the right way. The two opponents slug it out in a test of skill, both trying to not get hurt, while hurting the other,
However, being a game, it is undeniable that there are a considerable number of people who's entire premise of airborne combat is to shoot down the enemy by any means necessary - if it means one's own death. These guys don't fight to survive. They pay no attention to one's own survival, and their prime objective is to shoot down the other guy no matter what happens. It doesn't matter if it's a stupid or suicidal move. They just don't care. They will point straight to the enemy and hold the trigger down, submitting themselves to the mercy of lady Luck.
Now, against these kind of people, the normal concept of ACM doesn't work.
People who believe in ACM assume that both people are trying to live, to fight it out without being shotdown. So they expect a certain enemy to move in certain logical way. They move around, maneuver themselves carefully, and put the enemy fighter into an E-deprived position. They prepare to go for the final kill.. and what happens is the enemy doesn't try to evade or escape your shots, as he should, if he was a pilot of a sound mind. He just flat turns as tight as possible and comes HOing your way.
Normally, in real life, people don't do this. Even in games, people who have an proactive mind about achieving victory through superior skill, don't do this kind of stuff. Unless there is a certain amount of reasoning behind taking such a great risk, ( ex.. You are hounded by two 109s in a P-47. You figure your chance is to kill one on the first HO merge with superior firepower, and duke it out with the remaining one..) people are supposed to try to live - and that's when they come predictable.
But the HO guys are unpredictable. They have the balls to do this kind of stuff because they know they don't die. In one word, it's "gamey" - something that would rarely ever work in real life, but only possible in a game.
...and that ruins the aura of combat for many people who believe in skill and ACM. They are suddenly rudely reminded that this is a game, and all your painstaking process of learning and practicing real-life tactics, can be so easily nerfed by some twit in a uber plane who doesn't give a shi*.[/color] The whole ACM concept was borne under realistic conditions for realistic engagements... but how do you fight a guy who flies unrealistically, and unwilling to survive, with ACM?
He turns to get a HO angle everytime you go for a pass, doesn't even try to evade, coming straight at you guns blazing.... This isn't such a problem if you are flying a good maneuvering plane like a Spitfire, which can evade, and a few more maneuvers can land behind the tard 400 yards out.. but when you are in something like a 109 or a 190, against something like a Spit16... to shoot him down you are forced to try a HO yourself. Either that, or choose to dogfight him to stall speed so that he is squeezed off every last bit of E and can't try the same stunt again.... and yes, you must risk doing it in a plane known to be difficult to manage.
So basically, when facing a HO tard with a plane that needs some basic disicipline to maneuver, you are almost always faced with a HO. You can always move out of the way, but no matter how you try to gain a safe shooting solution, he comes again facing forward, guns blazing, giving no shi* about survival, no concern for ACM, no care about skill.... and the prospect of the whole attack sequence being stopped and ruined, and sometimes even shot down, by such gamey dweebs, can be just so whoopeeed frustrating.
It's along the same lines as people hating 2k suicidal deck buffs, suicidal jabos, and "side-winder" pilots.
ps)) "Sidewinders" are those who have pretty decent skills, but flies in a guided-missile attitude.
These guys don't care about teamwork nor survival. It's the kind of guys who fly N1Ks or Spit16s (huge ammo or uber gun), picks a target, and follows it all the way up the vertical, spraying bullets like Florida squall, and then gets blown out of the sky immediately after shooting you down.
They know that there are many enemies nearby. They are skilled enough in 1vs1 maneuvering. They have good gunnery. But despite all that, they follow you up the vertical, and don't give a shi* about the dangers of being blown up by other enemies. Just pick a target, and do whatever needed to shoot it down, regardless whether they themselves are shot down in the process.
Normally, one expects a smart pilot to refuse following an enemy plane up when there are more enemies nearby. But they just come straight at you. He's doing what you would never do, and what one would rarely see in real life. He doesn't care if he lives or dies, all he wants to do is shoot you down.... and fighting these guys can be frickin' damned annoying. Like the HO tards, Sidewinders are made possible only because this is a game, and people don't really die in it.... and that also means being ridiculed by gamey dweebs.... which sucks.
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Of course the flip side to this is when you run into the guy blazing away from 1K out coming at you head on, you kinda know that he's just gonna keep going at light speed the other way so as long as you can duck the HO, he's not much of a threat.
When you go nose to nose with the guy who doesn't shoot, you can just about bet the house he's gonna stay and and fight it out.
And there are those shots that I thought were HO's that after looking at the film were actually really good and quick snapshots from the front quarter that some of those guys, who can actually shoot, use when they've got that quick angle shot.
But it's still no big deal in the end cause I get a brand new, factory fresh plane if I die and a brand new life too. So it's all good :)
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
You either have no clue what you are talking about or are a troll.
Or both.
Perhapes but I never get killed by a HO:)
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OK, Tilt. Even if I agree with your opinion that it takes two to HO, even in a low-speed furball, there's still a problem. Why should the player trying to play the game properly (i.e. manouever for a rear-quarter shot) be the one to have to burn energy to avoid the idiot who can do nothing but HO?
When you get low-and-slow, sure, you take whatever snapshot you can - even a HO. Basic instincts. No problem. The problem is - and has always been - this attitude that "the players who know what they're doing can just avoid the HO." Why should they have to? Why should the game be tilted (no pun intended) towards the players who don't want to bother to learn tactics?
Consider a P51 and a La7 merging. They're closing at a rate of at least 600 mph in most cases. The planes are small - think about how small a car looks 100 yards away (a football field) - the body of a fighter seen head-on is even smaller. The window of time when the enemy plane is close enough to target on and shoot at is pretty small. This should be an impossibly hard shot to line up if either plane is flying even 5 degrees angle-off, right? Yet in AH these shots are take - and MADE - from out at 800 yards - a half a freakin' mile - even if one player does fly angle-off a little to spoil the HO shot.
Which leads me back to my question - why should you have to duck and roll on a 600mph merge to avoid a shot that should be a 1-in-a-million if you just flew straight past the other guy?
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OK, Tilt. Even if I agree with your opinion that it takes two to HO, even in a low-speed furball, there's still a problem. Why should the player trying to play the game properly (i.e. manouever for a rear-quarter shot) be the one to have to burn energy to avoid the idiot who can do nothing but HO?
Who ever said that manouevering for a rear quarter shot is playing the game properly or realisitcly. Rear quarter shots are just another tradeoff in the all the tatics availible in dog fights. If you belive that the rear quarter is the best tatic for you to use so be it. But if some one else chooses not to go for the rear quater, so be it, if your tatics are better you should win. But to say that someone else can not use a perfectly valid tatic, I.E. HO , as they choose to use it, is just "Plane" silly.
HiTech
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I think these periodic HO whine threads are great. Just think of it as
a relief valve where folks can pound their chests and point fingers, and
last but not least pontificate for or against HOs to their heart's delight.
It doesn't even matter how many times a week one of these gets
posted..it's like fishing with dynamite in a 55 gallon drum :)
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I take head on shots, much to the disdain of the superior players who quite often take the time to point out to me they are disapointed with my style. :rofl
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Anyone with children should recognize this song from Shari Lewis. Appropriate for this thread.
"This is the song that doesn't end,
Yes it goes on and on my friend.
Some people started singing it,
not knowing what it was.
But they'll continue singing it
forever just because,
This is the song that doesn't end.....
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
OK, Tilt. Even if I agree with your opinion that it takes two to HO, even in a low-speed furball, there's still a problem. Why should the player trying to play the game properly (i.e. manouever for a rear-quarter shot) be the one to have to burn energy to avoid the idiot who can do nothing but HO?
I would be careful of defining the "manouvre for rear quarter shot" as "trying to play the game properly". A definition that would have stood up better with AW's gameplay model than AH's.
Fear of the forward quarter shot makes all players manouvre accordingly and none of have the right never to expect it.
If we ignore it we all risk the consequences.
If we accept the 180 degree merge we risk those too and should know (like our opponent) that we play a fools game.
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// if state_name
if (FIRST DATE?().Equals("YES"))
// else if state abbreviation
else if (DID SHE PUT OUT?().Equals("YES"))
state = (String)feature[columnAlias];
else if (IS SHE A HO().Equals("YES"))
is that a clarification query?
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Consider a P51 and a La7 merging. They're closing at a rate of at least 600 mph in most cases. The planes are small - think about how small a car looks 100 yards away (a football field) - the body of a fighter seen head-on is even smaller. The window of time when the enemy plane is close enough to target on and shoot at is pretty small. This should be an impossibly hard shot to line up if either plane is flying even 5 degrees angle-off, right? Yet in AH these shots are take - and MADE - from out at 800 yards - a half a freakin' mile - even if one player does fly angle-off a little to spoil the HO shot.
Which leads me back to my question - why should you have to duck and roll on a 600mph merge to avoid a shot that should be a 1-in-a-million if you just flew straight past the other guy?
I think given a high speed rate of closure at 180 degree merge then if you must chance it then its best to start firing at 1K........so when you take your finger off it will be 600 and the shell time to target will be a quarter of that found off an opponents 6.
re duck and roll............
But in truth Shaw offers several alternatives for both the energy and the angles fighter when faced with a potential high speed 180 merge. In none of these does he assume the luxury of a AW combat environment.
ie in none of shaws examples is the opponent allowed to perform his HO
Even given this nearly all the same tactics employed in AW combat come to play after the HO has been declined. Indeed the HO'ing opponent will be tempted to follow your intial manouvre rather than consider the angle and energy out come.
If he declines to follow and zoom then you may have achieved some angle or you may both extend and reconsider your options......something often done in AW too.
If he adopts an agressive angles strategm then he has left it too late.......he should have been in manouvre before the merge.
I refer to AW not to put words in your mouth. I realise you have not called for its reduced forward lethality. I refer to it because it embodies the style of combat (manouvering for rear quarter) you refered to above whilst creating a HO'less environment. Further the shear wealth of expertise amassed around its combat model makes it a convenient resource when considering alternatives. Knowledge that I know you are very familiar with.
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Originally posted by hitech
Who ever said that manouevering for a rear quarter shot is playing the game properly or realisitcly. Rear quarter shots are just another tradeoff in the all the tatics availible in dog fights. If you belive that the rear quarter is the best tatic for you to use so be it. But if some one else chooses not to go for the rear quater, so be it, if your tatics are better you should win. But to say that someone else can not use a perfectly valid tatic, I.E. HO , as they choose to use it, is just "Plane" silly.
"Proper" and "realistic" as defined as representing WW2 air combat.
Put another way, if what goes on in AH went on in WW2, then planes would have ended up with massive frontal armor, aft-mounted engines, and gobs of centerline-mounted guns. Because that would optimize the plane for the style of combat that is more the norm than the exception in AH2.
As long as front-quarter shots are easier to get (i.e. require less work and the game makes them easier to acquire) than rear-quarter, there is far less need to learn basic ACM. And that hurts the game as a simulation of the era. If that immersion isn't a priority, so be it.
I can understand perfectly well why players (esp. newer ones) defend HO tactics. Flying a Hurri2C you can run up a pretty nice score and if you would die anyway trying to dogfight then a 2:1 or so k/d HO'ing is fine. You can be "successful." That's obviously a priority for HTC too or new players will get quickly frustrated by their own suckiness.
But lets not kid ourselves into believing that even 1-in-10 A2A engagements in WW2 was resolved on the head-on merge.
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Originally posted by Pooface
simple one, and the most effective is to just push the nose down a little if you're going right for each other. its harder to shoot, and won't always work, but you dont loose e, you gain some, which you use right after by doing a straight immelman onto his six, while he begins his turn. you follow in lead pursuit, and turn inside him, closing the gap, and blast him to bits. works a lot of the time for me. and in the event that that doesnt work and the dweeb still manages to get you in ho, you get on 200 and shout at the dweeb for hoing you when you blatantly wanted to fight. most people get very annoyed by HO dweebs, so you're sure to have plenty of support.
remember, its not only how great a pilot you are, but how good you are at putting lame dweebs in their place on ch 200 lol
:lol Do not push your nose down. Not only you offer him a shot that is not a HO anymore, but you give him the advantage.
Doing a straight imelman onto his six and blasting him while he begins his turn :rofl
How do you come up with these things? What planes are you flying? If the HOer is in a Spit16 and you in 109 who is going to imel faster? Pussing your nose down at the list will make you faster and make your imel take longer. Translation, he will be blasting you.
Wana avoid the HO? Get separation before you get in guns range (vertical or horizontal) There is no reason to be merging HO.
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Originally posted by Waffle BAS
// if state_name
if (FIRST DATE?().Equals("YES"))
// else if state abbreviation
else if (DID SHE PUT OUT?().Equals("YES"))
state = (String)feature[columnAlias];
else if (IS SHE A HO().Equals("YES"))
is that a clarification query?
I dont think that would even compile. You seem to be a fun of slow coad too :p
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Originally posted by Tilt
I think given a high speed rate of closure at 180 degree merge then if you must chance it then its best to start firing at 1K........so when you take your finger off it will be 600 and the time to target will be a quarter of that found off an opponents 6.
...
I'm talking real life here, Tilt.
Just consider how hard it would be to pick up a target that small at that rate of closure, then line up a shot with no rangefinder, then guess right on when to fire for the second or two of reasonable firing window you could expect.
No way in hell you shoot at 1000 yards out - the other fighter is a speck at that range. And you're bouncing around your own cockpit, looking through a smudged windscreen, looking through the prop. Just no way. Maybe at a bomber formation where it's huge, slow moving, and you can set up the run.
The experiment I'd love to try to cure HO'ing would be to remove the target ranging completely. Keep the neon for the plane type and country so you can find a fight - but no convenient ranging info to use to time that long range HO shot. Don't know if it'd work, but it would probably bring the range of all fights closer in to where they should be.
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Like I said before, the only reason people complain about it is because they got used to the "Easy" button mode in Air Warrior where it was one less aspect of SA that they didn't have to worry about. If it hadn't been like that in AW, it wouldn't be an issue in Aces High.
It seems like anytime I read a biography about a WWII fighter pilot, it mentions both Ho'ing and being Ho'ed. Example - yesterday reading in "A Flying Tiger's Diary" by Bond, pp. 87, 103, etc. were a few places where he mentioned using the head on shot against the Japanese.
So, stop whining about a tactic that is very "realistic", was used quite often by WWII fighter pilots, and is able to be used in AH. If you don't like the head on, turn before you get shot!
HiTech summed it up pretty good:
>>Who ever said that manouevering for a rear quarter shot is playing the game properly or realisitcly. Rear quarter shots are just another tradeoff in the all the tatics availible in dog fights. If you belive that the rear quarter is the best tatic for you to use so be it. But if some one else chooses not to go for the rear quater, so be it, if your tatics are better you should win. But to say that someone else can not use a perfectly valid tatic, I.E. HO , as they choose to use it, is just "Plane" silly.<<
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DoKGonZo: You assume AH was ment to simulate WWII, it has never attempeted to do so in the main. Nore has it ever been the goal to do so.
There is a drastic diffence between simlating WWII Aircraft and a simulation of WWII.
I also do not buy into head on shots in real aircraft are harder than rear shots.
HiTech
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
The experiment I'd love to try to cure HO'ing would be to remove the target ranging completely. Keep the neon for the plane type and country so you can find a fight - but no convenient ranging info to use to time that long range HO shot. Don't know if it'd work, but it would probably bring the range of all fights closer in to where they should be.
I dont deny it would be interesting................
I would not be so confident of the out come re the HO as you seem to be..................interesti ng all the same.
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Originally posted by hitech
DoKGonZo: You assume AH was ment to simulate WWII, it has never attempeted to do so in the main. Nore has it ever been the goal to do so.
...
Weel, taht preddy muhc seddels teh dbate. :D
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Originally posted by hitech
DoKGonZo: You assume AH was ment to simulate WWII, it has never attempeted to do so in the main. Nore has it ever been the goal to do so.
There is a drastic diffence between simlating WWII Aircraft and a simulation of WWII.
HiTech
did you really mean that?
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/welcome.gif)
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You got SERVED on that 1 Hi-teek.
Guess you can have your cake and eat it too.Yea and let's advertise for this "GAME" on the military and history channel..............:rofl
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Yes I did tilt, it has always been as I have said.
We make a game around WWII planes and vehicles. We do not try to simulate WWII. Simulation of WWII is one of CT's goal's. Then things like ho's start to be used much more like they were in the war. Once there is a substatial penalty on death. And you can win with out shooting down the other guy. Then the choice of to HO or not becomes a very diffferent equation.
But if you try taylor things in the main to be a recreation of WWII tatics, you start to run into major fun limiting restrictions.
AutoPilot: Where does our banner in anyway contradict what I have said. In fact we choose those words very precisly to not give the impression we were a simulation of WWII.
Other wise instead of saying the Preimer WWII combat experiance, we would have said the Preiemer WWII simlation.
HiTech
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If your plane has made the mistake of giving me a firing solution YOUR GONNA GET SHOT!! period end of story. If its a head shot and it makes you mad poor widdle girly man ALL THE BETTER!:rofl :O
Every thing else is just BLAH BU BLAH BU BLAH BU BLAH!
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Originally posted by hitech
...
But if you try taylor things in the main to be a recreation of WWII tatics, you start to run into major fun limiting restrictions .
That's a highly context-sensitive phrase.
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Yes it is DokGonZO: And the context is the Main arena. Whos basic criterea.
1. Jump in any time.
2. Fly a sortie as a lone plane or with others in a cordinated effort.
Those 2 items alone throw out the the basics of WWII simulation.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Yes it is DokGonZO: And the context is the Main arena. Whos basic criterea.
1. Jump in any time.
2. Fly a sortie as a lone plane or with others in a cordinated effort.
Those 2 items alone throw out the the basics of WWII simulation.
Fair enough, and it does settle the issue in terms of intent.
Just remember that HO's are somewhat "fun limiting" to the veteran players.
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If your plane has made the mistake of giving me a firing solution YOUR GONNA GET SHOT!! period end of story
That's exactly what dweeb's with no ACM skills always say.......
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Well maybe they are right and you should listen then. Since I am most certainly a dweeb and have none of the UBER acm skills that the rest of you debating this done to death topic have.
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Just remember that HO's are somewhat "fun limiting" to the veteran players.
Only to those that let it.
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I don't intentionally go around trying for HO shots unless someone offers one to me. I really love a good pulse pounding tail chase with the loops, turns and such but you guys with the so called uber acm skills seem like you need more practice in avoiding the HO shots or practice your aim to kill the HO'er ;) if you are so into the acm thing then it seems to stand to reason that you just made a mistake in getting into a situation that gives the HO dweeb his shot. Anyway just a quick thought, I'm now off to the MA to HO some HO DWEEBS!!!!!!!
BTW Having good aim solves most problems.:aok
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DoKGonZo- There is more newbie's/skilless players than there are veteran/skilled players. So who's fun are you trying to limit? What is your handle in the game?
JMFJ
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Has anyone else noticed when reviewing films that there is an audible ping when you make an HO?
JMFJ
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Originally posted by JMFJ
DoKGonZo- There is more newbie's/skilless players than there are veteran/skilled players. So who's fun are you trying to limit? What is your handle in the game?
For once my handle is what you'd expect.
I'm not trying to limit anyone's fun. The n00bs will stay relatively unskilled as long as they rely mainly on the HO shot as their primary offensive tool. And the way things are now in the MA, there's no real reason for them to explore much else. Sure ... it can be fun ... but "ho-reverse-repeat" gets tired pretty quick.
Hopefully CT will address some of these issues. We'll have to see.
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We we to assume Hi Tech that if we ever encounter you in the MA we have to watch out for your HO?
Just wanna know in advance so I know to shoot back;)
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personaly i will never HO, not even after the first merge when my enemy is firing back. maybe once in 1000 fights when im really pissd at the guy....maye....if i think he is going to miss....and only after the first few turns, never ever from 5k seperation to HO merge.
going for the HO takes away valuable seconds that you could be using to manouver yourself for a better shot.
that being said, if you want to HO, then just go for it.
Its a valid tactic and a kill is a kill.
one word of advice, if you are going to HO, make sure you get good at it, or you will be HO'ed back in the MA and die.
remember that you can HO from 1k and the closure rates will make your rounds do harmfull damage even at this range.
shoot from 1k to 600yrds, then break away from your opponents HO, and watch him fly into your stream of rounds.
HOing and living is an art form, just makes you kinda crappy at ACm and happy to show it.
just enjoy the game, if soeone whines about the HO, make sure you always HO them and then totaly ignore them when they PM you.
play how you like.
always.
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I like HO's.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
HOing and living is an art form, just makes you kinda crappy at ACm and happy to show it.
I think that's very true. What get's me thinking is they have to practice the HO to really "get good at it". Why not put the effort into learning ACMs?
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i geuss some people dont spend enough time online to care.
for some this is an uber elite ACMs and dogfighting mecca. for others it is simply 30 mins of fun between real life and real life.
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Why not put the effort into learning ACMs?
I think it's more of they try to learn ACM and they just don't get it so they go for the easiest shot.Maybe the person who is showing them the ACM
is not getting it across to them in the right way.They just get so frustrated that they stick with what they know.On the other hand i've had experienced virtual pilots HO me in snapshots,AvA,and the Main Arena.It's just a really easy thing to get stuck in.I never take the HO shot on the merge and i rarely take a deflection shot,i try to outmanuver the other plane for the 6 kill,but not everybody is thinking the same.
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See Rule #5
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #5
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dedalos, dont even start with this bull**** again, its really silly. having stupid arguments like this just make the whole community angry at each other, the whole thing is just growing tiresome. and batfink, dont you even think about answering!
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See Rule #2
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.
c202 was an ACM fight.
be sure to post that one.
following your advice now poo.
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Originally posted by hitech
Who ever said that manouevering for a rear quarter shot is playing the game properly or realisitcly. Rear quarter shots are just another tradeoff in the all the tatics availible in dog fights. If you belive that the rear quarter is the best tatic for you to use so be it. But if some one else chooses not to go for the rear quater, so be it, if your tatics are better you should win. But to say that someone else can not use a perfectly valid tatic, I.E. HO , as they choose to use it, is just "Plane" silly.
HiTech
What HT said. If I get a good front 1/4 shot, or even a straight up HO I take it if that is my best option at the time.
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When possible, mainly in long range merges, I avoid the HO, not because I think it is lame, not because I prefer to dogfight, but simply that by taking the merge-HO it allows my enemy a shot at me, something I usually try to avoid. In an even up 1v1 you lose many angles by pressing the HO, so I don't mind seeing my opponent commit to one at all.
At shorter ranges, while in-the-fur, quite often the time and angles available to detect and avoid the HO is insufficient. Also when fighting a numerically superior enemy in the bang you have to take any shot you can get to try to even up the numbers.
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Only yella-bellied k0warDz sneak up on people and shoot em in the back!
;)
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See Rule #5
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I actually spent the time to read through the entire thread (OMG its long -- kind of like my reply!), and it seems the main complaints about HOs are a variation of a theme: "I think I am better than you, but yet you managed to shoot me down, and thus I think the manner in which you did it is unfair."
Better can mean better ACMs, better situation, more E, whatever. The complainer thought he had an advantage he could press, but instead he got HOed and now the complaints start on 200.
In other words, the guy who HOed had the audacity to defend himself. You were trying to BnZ him, and he turned into you. You tried to merge on his 6, and he turned into you. You were heading at him like a dart, and darn it, he didn't play the good little target and turn away first.
So, IMO, if you have an advantage and it looks like the target is going to HO you, the burden is on you to avoid and go look for another target. And BTW, you can ALWAYS avoid a HO -- it usually just means you are still toasted, just on another side of the bread. In such a case, why not try to take your executioner out with you?
The "you should learn ACMs" arguments seem to be the least valid. I am happy for and I salute everyone who hones his or her skills until you have turned yourself into a killing machine. But you cannot expect the enemy to cooperate at all times and yield to your advantage.
In the American Revolution, the colonials often had the audacity to hide behind trees and snipe with rifles from 200 yards instead of stand in the open 30 yards away from the Redcoats and get blasted. How dare they not fight according to the rules of war? :(
T-34s at Kursk charged the Tigers and engaged at point blank range, at times ramming the German tanks instead of sitting back letting the Tigers pick them off at 2 kilometers. Those peskie Ruskies should know that isn't the right way to conduct armored warfare. :huh
More than a few Japanese planes used no ACMs whatsoever when they dove into the St. Lo, the Franklin and etc. That's no way to properly use a bomber! :mad:
So-called "insurgents" in Iraq use roadside bombs against US and coalition troops. Don't they know they are supposed to congregate in one place where superior US firepower can deal with them properly? :furious
Now you are in the MA and want to engage in a fencing match, but your target wants to joust. The nerve of some people. :O
Things never change. There is no point in whining about it.
So to answer ICU2's original question, IMO, there is nothing "wrong" with a HO. Don't worry about the "stigma". The complainers will complain no matter what happens. And anyway, none has your home address, so they can't come beat you up if you annoy them. :p
Whether a HO is a "smart" thing to do as a "matter of course" is amply answered by the following:
"you have collided with Target"
"Target has collided with you"
But that is the subject of another thread!
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
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c202 was an ACM fight.
be sure to post that one.
following your advice now poo.
Sorry Bat, thats all I could find. Obviusly not ACM related but you tought me a very good leson. I'll try to find the one with the real ACM where you keep flying through bullets till you finally get a hit on my radiator. Does ACM stand for "as long as your guns can't hurt me, I can fly for ever?"
http://www.furballunderground.com/misc/Bat_teaching_acm.ahf
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
HO shots are artificially easier in AH than IRL and that allows far lesser skilled players to shoot down better players by leveraging this "feature." When you're new, it seems like a weird thing to gripe about. Once you get better you'll quickly get frustrated with it too.
If you're so much "better" then it should be no problem avoiding the HO. People just won't accept when the lose, and its always the other guys fault. Waaaaa!!! Crybabies all!!
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HOs are used regularily for the very simple reason that there is no heavy penalty for dying in AH. Unlike RL, where there was...you were really dead.
Not hard to figure out.
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Originally posted by Sloehand
If you're so much "better" then it should be no problem avoiding the HO. People just won't accept when the lose, and its always the other guys fault. Waaaaa!!! Crybabies all!!
Go play in traffic, sonny.
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Originally posted by Pooface
HO shots are only taken by pilots that don't know how to fight properly, or they just want to kill and run, and just want a good score. its very sad, and skilless.
going for a guys six instead of his nose means there is no danger to you, and you can kill more easily. i have no idea why people prefer to HO. really silly
Again people get so pissed off when you won't fight their kind of fight -- you know, the one where THEY win and you LOSE! Sorry, didn't get the memo on the rules. Next time I fight someone I'll ask for the script so I can play my part correctly. God forbid I play the game to win whatever way I can, while in whatever situation I've gotton myself in to.
Here's an idea! Paint in really big letters what I can and cannot do on your fuselage so I'll know in advance. You know, a custom skin. Something like "GO SLOW AND NO HO!". Or maybe, "I'M BETTER THAN YOU, DIE QUIETLY!"
Then, when we meet in combat, I will say, "Hi, welcome to my skies. I'll be your obedient target tonight."
'Scuse me while I dry these tears.
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Y'know, I didn't see anyone griping here about losing a fight to a HO ... the comments have been more that the prevalence of this "tactic" lowers the ambient skill level of the game and just generally detracts from the overall feeling of realism.
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I WILL take a moment and gripe about the dweebs who will turn into you from d400 out with no other intention but ramming (if you're wondering, yes I DID have that happen SEVERAL times over the last 2-3 days). Going for a forward-quarter shot is one thing, but wtf is with the bumper planes?!