Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: storch on January 25, 2006, 07:28:38 PM
-
why do we not have this model?
-
I always thought it was nearly identical to the C.205, maybe that is why?
-
3 x MG151/20MM one firing from the hub two in the wing roots a'la FW190 and two 12.7mm bredas firing through the propeller. it was just slightly slower than the 205 but reportedly a much better turner. but most importantly it's cool looking.
-
probably because precious scattered few saw any service. Yes I know the Ta152 sets a REALLY low standard on that mark, but still, only about 50 or so (if I recall) saw service, far less than even the Chog (200+) the Mc205 (200) and other "rare" planes we have.
EDIT: That's one possible explanation. Had we the 55, I'd fly it, mind you, just trying to answer.
-
A well turning aircraft with great firepower?
And good looking as well!
If it's like the MC's it will also handle well at high speed.
Hope we get it one day. ;)
But there will be other aircraft before..
-
we needs us some italian bombers. also, what was that one italian biplane fighter? forget which one but the RAF advised hurricane pilots to avoid it because it was so meneuverable.
-
it's a 1943 plane that would be welcome in the 1943 lineup in the AvA, TOD and SEA. It could hold it's own in the MA as well. stay tuned next week we'll be inquiring about the Reggiane 2005.
-
Originally posted by SMIDSY
we needs us some italian bombers. also, what was that one italian biplane fighter? forget which one but the RAF advised hurricane pilots to avoid it because it was so meneuverable.
CR42
-
I don't honestly think we need any italian bombers. They just didn't play much of a role in the war. They were obsolete when the war started (as was the early Heinkel 111, the Dornier, and other planes that were thought "s*** hot" before the war).
However, I think a representative lineup of Italian fighters would be nice for scenario work. Mind you most of the planes the Italians had were the inferior "Gloster Gladiator" types that were pre-war designs. The 202 and 205 that we have were relatively rare planes, on the macro scale.
Still, once we have a set of obsolete italian and russian planes (and obsolete brit bombers, and IJA/IJN fighters) we can really flesh out scenarios and AvA setups and the like.
-
Krusty, the reason why any Italian plane never plays much of a role in the war is because they are credited with no success and set aside as marginal in numbers and inferior in design and performance.
Italy has much more active role in the war than one would expect, as has its airforce. I would gladly welcome an italian bomber like SM.79II "Sparviero".
First designed as a torpedo bomber in 1934 and entered service in -36.
Total built app. 1200 planes, performance 270 mph (ju88 20 mph faster), ceiling 23 000 ft, payload 2755 lbs, four forward, dorsal, ventral and side firing 12,7 mm and 7,7mm mg's.
Sparvieros served in allmost every theater of the war: Bombing of Malta and allied relief forces to Malta, North Africa, Balkans, and the mediterranian. Yogoslavia and Romania used the SM.79 on the Russian front.
I also would welcome more early Italian fighters like Fiat G.50 and C.200 Saetta, that are also generally under estimated.
-
Originally posted by storch
3 x MG151/20MM one firing from the hub two in the wing roots a'la FW190 and two 12.7mm bredas firing through the propeller. it was just slightly slower than the 205 but reportedly a much better turner. but most importantly it's cool looking.
Actually, the two wing cannons fired outside of the propeller, so the ROF was pretty high. The G.55 had more wing area than the 205 so his handling was much better at high alt. The ammo load was huge, IIRC 200 rounds for each of the 3 Mausers. It outperformed easily the 109G-6 with gondolas so it was probably the best 1943 hi alt buff interceptor. IMO, the most beautiful Series 5 design:
(http://www.fly-net.org/aeromedia/lb100.gif)
BTW, Pyro has the original flight manual, so who knows ...
-
Kantti I don't discount the role the Italians had in the war "in general" -- they were a major force in the Med area. However over France and the channel they were relatively rare. The fact that the Sm79 flew in every theater doesn't bely it's age, I would like to point out. The P40 was obsolete but produced throughout the war and served in every theater (I think). The Ju52 was WAAY obsolete and served throughout the war, supplanted by the He111 as a VIP transport (which itself was getting old) later in the war, and the 52 was used as a bomber at times! (still can't believe that lol). To flesh out the planeset the SM79 is a must but it still won't be competitive against contemporary bombers or fighters. It would be like the Do17Z: Good to have but crappy to use :P
-
I want G 55 for aces high !:aok
This is what the Bf-109 should have been in the last stages of war...:p
(http://wmilitary.neurok.ru/wwii/g55-f2.jpg)
-
In any MED theatre of ops the SM79 would be a must. It was used successfully in North Africa, Malta and during the whole convoys war from 1940 to 1943.
Sure, in our Main Arcade Arena it would be easy meat for any cannon armed fighter.
1K3,
as a late war fighter you could consider the DB603 engined Fiat G.56. Same fuselage and armament but with 1.650hp max power at t/o. A heavy beast able to get to 6.000mt in 5'45", with a max speed of almost 700Km/h at 7,500mt.
-
Interesting paragraph from my "Complete Book of World War II Combat Aircraft".
'Of the Series 5 fighters, the Fiat G.55 Centauro emerged as the best overall, and in the course of its brief but intense operative career, carried out almost exclusively bearing the insignia of the aviation Repubblica Sociale Italiana after September 1943 this fast robust combat plane proved to be an ubeatable interceptor at altitude. In the air battles that took place in northern Italy during the last year of the war, the Centauro clashed with formidable adversaries (such as the British Spitfires and the American Mustangs, Thunderbolts and Lightnings) and proved to be a fearsom antagonist on all occasions.'
I would love to see the G.55 in the game ... but not the Re.2005. The Reggiane 2005 (of which only 30 were completed) was eventually grounded shortly after being commisioned for structural weakness in the rear section of the fusalage. Re.2005 served from March to August in 1943 when it was decided to suspend the use of the aircraft.
-
Right Spiked,
in the february 1943 trials at Guidonia Airfield near Rome (papers from Rechlin) the Luftwaffe chose the Centauro as the best Series 5 fighter. Trials were conducted between the C.205V (early version, with oil cooling problems), the C.205N (bigger wing area), the Re2005, the 190A-5 and the 109G-4.
Actually the LW was looking for a good high alt interceptor indeed. The basic 109G lacked firepower, the one with gondolas had a very poor performance and the 190A-5, the best overall dogfighter of the trial (but I guess there were some luftwhiner test pilots :rolleyes: ), was obiously not very good for interceptions at those alts.
-
Originally posted by storch
3 x MG151/20MM one firing from the hub two in the wing roots a'la FW190 and two 12.7mm bredas firing through the propeller. it was just slightly slower than the 205 but reportedly a much better turner. but most importantly it's cool looking.
The book I have contridicts itself in saying the G.55 had better speed at 23k+ ... but shows the MC.205 being 15mph faster at alt. MC.205 was lighter and smaller of the two which might lead to the faster speeds since they had the same engine (DB 605A, 12 cylinder V - 1475hp). The G.55 had a better ceiling, range and firepower (by one cannon) than the MC.205 however, and if I am reading right was the better "dogfighter".
-
I'd like to see the G55 and maybe the Re2001-2005 series. Almost looks like a 205, just different shaped wings and rudder.
-
Nah, the wings are way different. The wings look a lot more like a He100D, squared off with a flat spar then angling upwards out past the landing gear.
-
What are the specs for the series 5 fighters? Speed, dimensions etc. Are the top speeds quoted for full power(1475ps)? IIRC Italian DB605's were only run at 1.3ata?
-
Justin,
all manuals and official data are at 2,600rpm and 1.3ATA. No clear sign of 1.43ATA and 2,800rpm clearing in any official document, so far.
-
Well for a good Med scenario, not to mention ToD, there will be more Italian aircraft needed.
Would be nice, - you have Italian and German fighters vs US and UK.
-
BTW, does anyone have the specs for this aircraft?
Weight, speed, climb, VNE and such?
-
Originally posted by Klum25th
I'd like to see the G55 and maybe the Re2001-2005 series. Almost looks like a 205, just different shaped wings and rudder.
i always thought the Re2005 was a hot plane, but very few of them existed, it would be looked at like the 3 gun la7 (which from what i have read it would give a good fight to based on performance)
-
Originally posted by Angus
Well for a good Med scenario,
Actually not so good. It's a good plane, yes, and it performs well. However it is not representative of the majority of the Italian forces, which were predominantly open cockpit G.50's most of the war (obsolete to say the least). Those would be good for TOD and scenarios, because they were what the allies actually faced most of the time.
Yeah, I still want G.55 someday, but just saying it won't do any good to stick it in anything but "what-if" scenarios. :)
-
Well, you're right. And for a good Med scenario we'd need many others.
-
it will be very good in the AvA arena and it was built in numbers close to Ta152 which is here and useless in it's currently mis-modelled iteration.
-
Angus, this page has a good summary about the G.55, rather accurate:
http://www.kotfsc.com/aviation/g55.htm
And, Krusty, the Centauro was produced in numbers quite similar to the 205, only it was produced in North, after the armistice, that's probably why you mistook production figures.
I'd like to see the Sagittario, too, after the problem with tail was solved, she was an awesome fighter... but, having been produced in such few exemplars, I don't think it should be added to AH.
We do need Italian fighters and bombers for scenarios and AvA, I played a while in another sim that has such planeset and some good scenarios (Malta, Sicily) I assure you it can be a lot of fun. You will be surprised to see how an "obsolete" plane can nonetheless stand against better planes if properly flown, Krusty.
Gatt... ... about those documents you have... ... you know what I mean :D
-
Even though the G.55 would be nice, Krusty is right, the majority of fighting force composed of G.50s and that is what at first look is missing from AH. (Not to mention I very anctiously want one (for my self) to our FinRus setups) ;)
C.200 would also be very easy to model from G.50 (or vice versa) and both of them have a solid history in production numbers and operational combat.
Also there is no reason why "outdated" machinery in general should not be modeled in AH. Majority of the planes operational in any theater of war would have never been the cutting edge anyway. This is only illusion created by MA which totally screws up the whole history side of things. I will not get further into this, because it will only end up in furball and flames :rofl
-
Thats surprising that G.50 were the majority.
Not too many were made & a lot of those were two seat trainer versions & some were exported.
I'd have guessed Macchis or even Cr.42s were the most common RA fighter before I'd have wagered on the G.50s
-
Mc 200's probably?
But the G55 has enough for the MA. Good range. Thx for the link Gianlupo ;)
-
The G.50 was common from what I've read. Cr42s and C200s and G.50s were all the mainstay fighters during the war. Any one of those could "fill in" for the early war majority set. Sort of like how we have a la5fn to fill in for all the early lavochkins, at least it's something when you need a setup.
-
As far as numbers are concerned the C.200 is probably the best a/c for an ipothetic early war italian plane set. It fought in every theatre in good numbers. From mid-late 1941: the C.200 and the C.202. Form early-mid 1943: the C.202, the C.205 and the G.55.
-
Some numbers:
the most produced italian fighter was (sigh!) the CR.42, with 1.781 exemplars. The C.200 was produced in 1151 units, G.50 in 780 units.
For the second generation fighters the numbers are: C.202 --> 1100, Re.2001 --> 237
Third generation: C.205 --> 280, G.55 --> 270, Re.2005 --> 30
Keep in mind that different sources give different figures, I just wanted to give you an idea of how many fighters were produced during the war (I've not listed the Re.2000 and Re.2002)
-
Originally posted by gatt
As far as numbers are concerned the C.200 is probably the best a/c for an ipothetic early war italian plane set. It fought in every theatre in good numbers. From mid-late 1941: the C.200 and the C.202. Form early-mid 1943: the C.202, the C.205 and the G.55.
The C.200 would perhaps give a wider range of use (to fill in) if only one early Italian fighter was to be added, because it has the performance and will (with only minor modding, or only with a new skin) fill in the g.50 as well.
Theres no point in modelling cr.42 if there is not going to be counterpart like gladiator, Fokkers or I15 family for it. Me want me some Swordfish I tell u :)
Considering that were short of so many other mainstay fighters and bombers in AH, the c.200 most definately would give the most out of them.
-
Originally posted by Gianlupo
Some numbers:
the most produced italian fighter was (sigh!) the CR.42, with 1.781 exemplars. The C.200 was produced in 1151 units, G.50 in 780 units.
For the second generation fighters the numbers are: C.202 --> 1100, Re.2001 --> 237
Third generation: C.205 --> 280, G.55 --> 270, Re.2005 --> 30
Keep in mind that different sources give different figures, I just wanted to give you an idea of how many fighters were produced during the war (I've not listed the Re.2000 and Re.2002)
The Re.2002 was actually an attack aircraft, that was semi-successfull in the roll. 60 of the 225 or so built were actually used by the Luftwaffe in France against the allied advance.
-
Well, the 2002 was mostly used for CAS, but remember that every italian fighter listed above could carry bombs, the Reggiane weren't the only one used in that role. ;)
-
I remember seeing two interesting photos of Reggianes recently (2000 or 2002, dont remember which) one with equipt to carry 88 2kg AP bombs on it's belly & another being catapult launched off an Italian cruiser. Quite a capable plane, it seems
-
C200 should be ok against HurryI and even Tomahawk.
Much better performing than the bipes as well.....
-
The CR.42 was not used mostly against gladiators and swordfish. It's main opponents were spitfires and hurricanes. You see, in real life any gun shooting at anything can kill. It's only in AH that bb's suck for kills :P
-
Debonair, 8/10 Re.2000 were modified as Re.2000cat to be used on the Regia Marina (italian Royal Navy) for reconnaisence and defense mission: they were catapulted but had to land on a field.
All the 2000 could be equipped with a double rack for 44 (it should be 44, not 88) 2 kg anti personnel bombs.
The Re.2002 was essentially a 2000 with a different, more powerful engine and some internal modifications, that could carry a heavier payload (up to 650 Kg of ordnance).