Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mauser on January 27, 2006, 12:15:37 PM
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http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060119-112132-3551r.htm
Sniper rounds
An Army judge advocate general (JAG) temporarily banned Army and Marine Corps snipers from using a highly accurate open-tip bullet.
The JAG, we are told, mistakenly thought the open-tip round was the same as hollow-point ammunition, which is banned. The original open-tip was known as Sierra MatchKing and broke all records for accuracy in the past 30 years.
The difference between the open-tip and the hollow point is that the open tip is a design feature that improves accuracy while the hollow point is designed for increasing damage when it hits a target.
About 10 days ago, the Army JAG in Iraq ordered all snipers to stop using the open-tip 175-grain M118LR bullet, claiming, falsely, it was prohibited. Instead of the open-tip, snipers were forced to take M-60 machine gun rounds out of belts and use them instead.
The order upset quite a few people here and in Iraq who said the JAG ignored the basic principle of every military lawyer that there is a presumption of legality for all issued weapons or ammunition that are made at the military service level at the time they are acquired.
"She forced snipers to use less accurate ammunition, thereby placing U.S. forces and Iraqi civilians at greater risk," a Pentagon official said of the JAG, who was not identified by name. "And she incorrectly issued an order. JAGs may advise a commander, but they cannot issue orders."
After Army lawyers were finally alerted to the JAG's action, the order was lifted and the JAG was notified that the open tip was perfectly legal for use by snipers. However, the reversal was followed by the Army officials' taking retaliation against a sniper who blew the whistle on the bogus order. The sniper lost his job over a security infraction in reporting the JAG.
Although I don't trust everything coming from the media anymore, I was fortunate enough to watch the very beginning of this incident unfold at another forum I frequent. The soldier was seeking correct information from the credentialed experts on the forum. The thread has been deleted since then, and I don't remember whether the soldier in question mentioned his unit or not (which was supposedly the infraction). However, I did remember just how displeased the members were over the situation with the JAG. Several of the forum members with credentials (one terminal ballistics expert who does testing for federal and law enforcement agencies provided the text of the letter which authorizes the particular ammunition, and several highly respected veterans) went out of their way to right the wrong. They had some pretty choice words for the JAG, and in this case rightfully so. Being forced to de-link ball rounds from the MG belts to use in their sniper weapon systems was a cardinal sin (a view that also seems from my layman's point of view, rightfully so). Some open tip match rounds, including the subject 7.62mm M118LR and the recently issued Mk262 Mod 0/1 5.56mm are widely known to be landwarfare legal since the open tips are a byproduct of the manufacturing process and not specifically designed to make the bullet expand:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000248
I didn't hear about this incident on the evening news, unlike the body armor subject. Anyone else pick this up elsewhere? Possibly because it wasn't as widespread and only took a couple of weeks to resolve. Or possibly because most reporters / editors couldn't figure out what was going on. In any case, the problem seems to have been solved in the right way.
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I dont see the point in banning either round.
the idea after all is to kill your target.
So long as that is done who cares how much damage is done to the corpse?
I hope that JAG has been pulled out of Iraq and is curently serving as a PLO (no time for Seargants) somehere in the bowels of the pentagon.
Probably the same buttwhipe that advised not killing Bin Laden when we had the chance
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Who chares of the ammo is illegal, all that matters is killing the enemy before he kills you
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Why not use "dum-dums"; after all the goal is to take the bad guy out?
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Isn't an Open-Tip the same as a Ballistic tip round. Seirra used to make (and may still make) a Ballistic Tip boatail round that was supposed to be more accurate than a regular FMJ or ball round. It had a hard plastic tip that prevented from getting disformed during loading.
Hollow points may be on the Geneva Conventions list of banned weapons, not sure.
I always heard that a really wicked round was a hollowed out bullet with a couple of drops of mercury inside and then resealed.
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A hard plastic tip that prevents it from getting deformed during loading?
Hey, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you...
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Laser, let me show you, Plastic = polycarbonate, IMO
http://www.wholesalehunter.com/product/nosler/nosldes/NoslerBallisticTipVarmintBullets.htm
The unique, ultra-thin tapered varmint jacket and pure lead core make the Nosler Ballistic Tip Varmint bullets ultra explosive, yet allow them to be shot at virtually any velocity level. Featuring Nosler's Solid Base boat tail design and streamlined polycarbonate tip , these flat shooting, wind-defying bullets provide the absolute accuracy and long range efficiency that make Ballistic Tip the most wanted varmint bullet in America. Nosler Ballistic Tip Varmint bullets are also available in .22 caliber 40, 50, 55 grain; 6mm 70 grain and .25 caliber 85 grain configurations.
Keep your bridge;)
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Originally posted by mauser
...hollow-point ammunition, which is banned.
i wonder why the ban? like other here said, its about killing before the enemy kills you.
I may understand of banning mines but here i dont see the point,
especialy if the enemy uses hollow-point ammunition too.
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OK, Ballistic tips do NOT prevent the tip from getting deformed. (want that bridge back?) hmm, metal vs polycarbonate? metal wins. The plastic tip is to help the bullet expand, hence the "explosive" effect.
Hollow points are not used because the idea is not to kill one person, but wound one person. If you wound one, it takes two to carry him of the battlefield. If you kill him, the two leave him lay and shoot back. Geneva convention has it's good points and not so good points as well.
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TCE, 25 years ago I bought my first box of 165 grn ballistic tip boattails for my .300 Win Mag. Selling points they used when I purchased them was the hard plastic tip prevents deformation when loading and unloading a round in the chamber or magazine and they had a better ballisitic coeffiecent than FMJ or soft points. That was good enough for me. I went to the range and shot a group of 3 at 100 yds you could cover with a quarter (bench rest).
so no I dont want that bridge back, ;)
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Polycarbonate isn't the same as plastic. But anyway, that tip helps to expand the bullet upon contact.
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Lasor, no arguement from me on the reason for the PLASTIC (polycarbonate) tip
But
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:Polycarbonate
God I love Google
Definitions of Polycarbonate on the Web:
A type of plastic used in sign faces, noted for its heat-resistance andimpact strength
Engineering plastic used for the shell and substrate of Sony magneto optical disks
A hybrid word meaning "many in composition with carbon atoms." Polycarbonate resins feature many chains of molecules linked to one another, forming a hard thermoplastic with a great resistance to impact and softening. Polycarbonate has been reported to be 50 times stronger than acrylic.
Rigid plastic that is easy to handle and can be cut to size. It is less susceptible to breakage than glass products. Scratches very easily but can be supplied with mar resistant coating.
Plastic that is very impact-resistant, and is thus sometimes used for spectacle lenses and frames.
Polycarbonates are a particular group of thermoplastic. They are easily worked, mold, and thermoformed; as such, these plastics are very widely used in modern manufacturing. They are called polycarbonates because they are polymers having monomers groups linked together by carbonate groups (-O-CO-O-) in a long molecular chain
:) I love to argue, my wife says I would argue with God
I worked dental in the Air Force for 20 years, we used polycarbonate crowns with some patients, we all used to call them plastic crowns
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LOL, airscrew. very nice shooting and research!:aok I didn't realize ballistic tips had been around that long, I was thinking early to mid 90's. I tried them in my 25-06, but prefer the TNT bullets for "explosive " effects in that caliber.:t
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JAG = lawyer nuff said:furious
I say let the jag's grab some M24s or marine M40a2's and let them face off with the haji's.
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Harm would. ;)
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TC, the group I shot was when I was bore sighting the win mag (new scope), I used a bunch of small sand bags to support the rifle so it wouldnt move very much, I doubt I could shoot that small of a group otherwise.
As far as when the ballistic tips were available I'm not 100% sure. I bought that win mag about 1985 maybe 86, and bought those rounds ( I think it was Sierra) at the same time.
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Originally posted by tce2506
Hollow points are not used because the idea is not to kill one person, but wound one person. If you wound one, it takes two to carry him of the battlefield. If you kill him, the two leave him lay and shoot back.
Bah, the two less solders to carry the wounded back is only temporary.
And wounded people often come back to fight again.
Death is permanent.
As a man once said.
Death can solve many problems.
No more man. No more problem
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More reading material on Open Tip Match ammunition:
http://www.thegunzone.com/opentip-ammo.html
Btw, they are not the same as ballistic tips which look to be more for giving an expanding bullet (hollow point) better long range performance, while still providing a means for expansion.
Conclusion.
The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. Like most 5.56mm and 7.62mm military ball bullets, it may fragment upon striking its target, although the probability of its fragmentation is not as great as some military ball bullets currently in use by some nations. Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United State Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. The military necessity for its use-- its ability to offer maximum accuracy at very long ranges--is complemented by the high degree of discriminate fire it offers in the hands of a trained sniper. It not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat.
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As for ease of loading, Hornady has their new LEVERevolution rounds with a soft almost rubbery tip. They are for use in lever action rifles which don't like pointy bullets (sharp object up against primer = bad), but give better ballistics than round or flat nose bullets.
http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=198
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The actual bullet in question is the Sierra Match King 168 grain HOLLOW POINT Boat Tail Spitzer. There is a clause, and there may be several clauses, in the Geneva Convention the forbids the use of hollow point bullets, or other bullets specifically designed to cause more grievous wounds. This includes "dum-dums" or explosive type bullets as well as hollow points.
However, the bullet in question is NOT a true hollow point, in that there is not an actual large cavity designed do hydraulicly expand. The reason for the small opening in the bullet is to allow it to be manufactured and loaded (Federal uses the bullet in question in their Match Grade .308 ammo, specified by the FBI for sniper use) without damaging the bullet and causing it to be inaccurate.
I keep a couple of boxes of those bullets, I use them in ALL my 30 caliber rifle loads. They are indeed the most accurate 30 caliber bullet available, by a large margin. They DO NOT expand like a true hollow point.
Several of the military competition shooting teams use the same bullet in their match ammo, whether it is loaded in 308 or in 300 Winchester Magnum cartridges.
I actually have some of the military sniper ammo for a 300 Winchester Magnum in my cabinet. It is not even as hot as my own loads, but it is quite accurate, though not as accurate in my rifle as my hotter loads.
There are plenty of other bullets that could be used if the intent was to use a bullet that caused more tissue damage. That bullet was chosen strictly for accuaracy, and anyone who has used it or knows weapons and ammo would know that. The advantage it has for using it to kill things is SHOT PLACEMENT. Few bullets are capable of 1/4 MOA accuracy, but that one is.
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Anyone notice that the JAG officer was an obviously ignorant female ?
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I don't think the receipient of a hollow point round, open top round or a full metal jacketed round, 175 grain, 105 grain etc would tell the difference....