Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: weaselsan on January 27, 2006, 02:41:57 PM
-
For those who wonder why I will from time to time say that Palistine doesn't exist.
Palestine was a province of the Roman Empire. It is also the name of the ancient state of Israel, when the Jews lived there. The old Roman Province of Palestine corresponds to what is 1. Israel today and 2. a lot of the country of Jordan.
The Modern Term Palestine came back into usage both as a response of the Jews to reclaim a homeland of their own, and because the British Empire administered the territory of what used to be ancient Israel.
The British called this territory “the Palestinian mandate”. However the term “Palestine” has always historically been used to refer to a Jewish Nation and a Jewish Homeland. Prior to the British taking over their “Palestinian Mandate” [which actually meant “Jewish mandate”], the territory of Palestine was administered by the Turkish Ottoman Empire (which vaporized and imploded in WW1).
In 1948, (47 ?), the Jewish state was reborn. Immediately, it was attacked by its Arab neighbors. The Arabs lost. Those Arabs eventually formed the basis for the Palestinian refugee problem, a problem of their own making which occured because they attacked Israel.
The Palestianians which supported Israel were integrated into Israeli society. Today the Palestinians who live in Israel have the right to vote in the Elections in Israel. The Palestinians who refused to join in helping Israel after the 1947-48 war eventually went into camps, and those camps were located inside the territory of Israel.
The camps were not administered by Israel, but rather by the United Nations. Other Arab Countries never came to their aid until Arafat threatened to blow them up. Then – all of a sudden – all of the Arab nations - of course – had “always been concerned” about the Palestinian problem
Today 95% of the Palestinians live under Palestinian Control, under the direct administration of the Fatah party (Now hamas a terrorist organization with one objective the destruction of israel) and the PLO, which renamed itself the PA (Palestine Authority). The Goal of the PLO was to eliminate Israel.
The Goal of the PA supposedly have renounced that. Apparently, they continue to foster the killing and bombing of Israeli civilians as series of “constant coincidences”.
When people tell you that the Palestinian nation is “invented”, it is because this is true. The term “palestine” has never applied to Arabs before. This was simply a trick by Arafat to try to claim territory which has always belonged to Israel. Jordan in fact – already represents 50% of the territory of Ancient Israel, and Jordan is 90% Palestinian Already. The Koran does not mention Jerusalem by name once, and the Jews are called
the People of the Book (which means People of the old testament)
there is no basis to suggest that Israel ever belonged to Arabs. Some Arabs did settle there in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and they have been given the chance to integrate into Israel.
However, most of the Palestinians who claim to be “Palestinian:” have jordanian, syrian, lebanese, and egyptian Passports. In other words, they are imports and illegals. The goal is to overwhelm Jews by Immigration and population transfers. If all other methods fail then through violent means.
-
Even Arafat was Egyptian. Egypt didnt want him.
The following came from the article "The 100 years' war" in the WSJ in early January.
The Arab-Israeli struggle might be equated -- at least in duration -- to the Hundred Years' War between England and France in the 14th and 15th centuries. One could say it began in the early 20th century when Zionists began arriving in significant numbers in the Holy Lands, fleeing oppression in Europe. They augmented the Jewish population of what would later be called Palestine.
Late in the 19th century, according to the most reliable studies, Jews were only about 10% of a population of about 700,000, with Christians a further 10% and Arabs most of the rest. But with the Zionist movement Jewish numbers began to grow. With their socialist ideology and commitment to soul-purifying physical labor the Zionists formed tightly knit, dedicated communities foreign to the natives of the region.
Great Britain encouraged the Zionists, issuing the Balfour Declaration in 1917 promising the Jews a homeland in the region even as the British army was driving out the Turks. After the World War I allies destroyed Ottoman rule, the British under a League of Nations mandate further encouraged Jewish settlement. The local Arabs mounted anti-Zionist riots. One of the leaders of these demonstrations was Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, who would later make common cause with Adolf Hitler, imploring the Germans to thwart any British effort to create a Jewish state.
Most of the Jews who migrated to Palestine in the '30s and '40s were not Zionists. They were fleeing the Holocaust and had nowhere else to go. But the Zionists formed the hard muscle that overthrew the British mandate in 1948 and defeated the Arabs who tried to block the establishment of Israel. Their kibbutzim collectives produced the tough native-born "sabras," among them Ariel Sharon, who formed the core of the Israeli military forces. With roots going back to the 19th century, the Zionists had an uncommon dedication to the defense of a Jewish state.
There would be plenty of fighting. In 1956, Israel, with British and French support, invaded the Sinai after Nasser seized the Suez Canal, but to little avail. In June 1967 came the Six Day War and the IDF's lightning victory over the combined forces of neighboring Arab states that gave Israel control of large territories formerly controlled by Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Then, in October 1973, there was the Yom Kippur War, which Israel might have lost had Gen. Sharon not conducted a bold tank maneuver to neutralize Egyptian surface-to-air missile batteries near the Suez Canal.
Now that is all history. Ariel Sharon is finally hors de combat and his long record will go into the history books. Israel will continue to fight. The barren land the Zionists settled so long ago has become a strong state of 6.5 million people, mostly Jews. It has gradually modified the socialism that hampered its economic development. The Hundred Years' War will continue, but casualties are fewer and the U.S. has established a military presence in the region, grounds for hope that the war is winding down.
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
...When people tell you that the Palestinian nation is “invented”, it is because this is true. The term “palestine” has never applied to Arabs before. This was simply a trick by Arafat to try to claim territory which has always belonged to Israel....
It was 'owned' by the Roman Empire, the Arabs from Bagdhad, Cairo, The Crusades era Kingdom of Jerusalem, the Ottomans, and several other Caliphates since the time of Soloman and David, so to say it has always belonged to Israel is a bit of a stretch.
One can say that a self governing Arab "Palestine" has never existed.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It was 'owned' by the Roman Empire, the Arabs from Bagdhad, Cairo, The Crusades era Kingdom of Jerusalem, the Ottomans, and several other Caliphates since the time of Soloman and David, so to say it has always belonged to Israel is a bit of a stretch.
One can say that a self governing Arab "Palestine" has never existed.
Let me put it this way, prior to the establishment of the State of Israel
1. there has never been a "Palestinian People"
2.There has never been a "Palestinian Government"
Only an ancient name occupied at the time by Italians, that the British picked up and called the Palestine mandate. Remember the British where very good at creating countries where none had existed before. Note the perfectly straight line between Iraq and Kuwait. Drawn by a British general whose name escapes me at the moment, with a straight edge, possibly a ruler.
-
Yes, Holden is correct.
However, jews have always been in Israel. They might not have had self own of the land around them, but they've always been there.
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
Let me put it this way, prior to the establishment of the State of Israel
1. there has never been a "Palestinian People"
2.There has never been a "Palestinian Government"
Only an ancient name occupied at the time by Italians, that the British picked up and called the Palestine mandate. Remember the British where very good at creating countries where none had existed before. Note the perfectly straight line between Iraq and Kuwait. Drawn by a British general whose name escapes me at the moment, with a straight edge, possibly a ruler.
1. wrong,because people don't need a label to exist.
2. I fail to see any logic in you statement.
@Lazer : think of Canaan ;)
-
Originally posted by straffo
1. wrong,because people don't need a label to exist.
2. I fail to see any logic in you statement.
@Lazer : think of Canaan ;)
Let me say it s-l-o-w-l-y maybe the logic will s-l-o-w-l-y sink in.
There... has... never... been..a...people... called... the.. Palestinian People.
it..was...made...up...by...an ....Egyptian...named...Yassar Arafat.
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
Let me say it s-l-o-w-l-y maybe the logic will s-l-o-w-l-y sink in.
There... has... never... been..a...people... called... the.. Palestinian People.
it..was...made...up...by...an ....Egyptian...named...Yassar Arafat.
I cant believe Im going to say this but, Weasle is correct. :)
But living in the here and now, they do exist... So something has to be done.
-
Originally posted by Silat
I cant believe Im going to say this but, Weasle is correct. :)
But living in the here and now, they do exist... So something has to be done.
Very simple...agree that Israel has the right to exist, and stop sending in Morons to kill innocent people with the promise of 72 virgins and a pat on the back from Allah. However, I will post the Hamas doctrine here if you would like to see it. It doesn't bode well for peace in the area.
You would have thought that they got the message after Burak had given in to 99% of everything that Arafat was asking for and all they got was the Intifada. Most of my Liberal friends (Both of them actually) were sure when he was elected that it was "Peace in our time". Until I pointed out that Arafat 1> was corrupt and in it for the money, and 2> was a dead man if he offered peace to the Israelis under any circumstances. I was wrong according to them all the way up to the first rocks being thrown. Then they changed the subject, which brings us to Hamas,
-
Originally posted by Silat
I cant believe Im going to say this but, Weasle is correct. :)
But living in the here and now, they do exist... So something has to be done.
So, if anyone takes a name with some sort of very vague historical precendent, and moves onto a piece of land that is referred to by said vague historical precedent, then they are entitled to "have something done about it" regardless of their actual ability to claim that land, because "in the here and now, they do exist"? :rofl :rofl :rofl That's some real good use of logic. NOT!
-
I feel alot of sympathy towards Israel, more so now with so many countries around them declaring publicly their aggression towards them.
That said, I don't understand the whole reason Israel is in the area.
Why weren't they given part of Germany as war reparations instead of where they are now?
How can they lay claim to the area they currently reside, it seems as silly as the US giving land back to Spain, France, and England because they once resided here.
How come Israel has so much political weight? A country that is not a whole lot bigger than my state of Connecticut not only can tell the US what it wants to do, but it also has nuclear weapons.
Why wasn't the area Israel that currently resides on become a neutral territory? That whole area is the nexus of several religions and should belong to no single group.
I'm sure I'll be accused of an anti-Semitism bias, but the above just doesn't make sense to me.
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see the Israeli people moved in anyway. It is far too late for that, they have become an established country and appeasement of the radical Muslims just doesn't work anyway.
-
That said, I don't understand the whole reason Israel is in the area.
Delirium,
These point are perfectly valid and were asked by Jews themselves. The Zionist movement big idea was that Jews are a nation - not only a religion or a culture. As such, the solution for long history of anti-semitism and prosecution is to have their own state. The Palestine territory was an obvious choise but other option were brought up.
The vast majority of Jews did NOT agree with them - mostly western Europe jews who were trying very hard to be accepted as loyal citizens in their countries: "Germans/French of Moses religion". Zionist movement only started to really pick up in the 1930's.
By 1945, most of the opposition to zionists was anahilated by Hitler or fled to America. Those left in Europe were refugees in their own countries and couldn't go back to their "homes" (in some cases the Poles and Ukranians turned out to be as bad as the Nazies). The only real options left were immigrate to America or join the Zionists in Palestine in an attempt to have a state of ther own. They were perfectly aware that there were other people living here as well, but when it comes to survival, moral dilemas and justice take the back seat. Today, the world Jewish population is almost evenly split between the US and Israel and a minority is scattered around the world.
How come Israel has so much political weight? A country that is not a whole lot bigger than my state of Connecticut not only can tell the US what it wants to do, but it also has nuclear weapons.
Israel is completly blown out of proportions. If you look at CNN coverage one might think it is one of the world most important countries. The number of forein reporters in Israel is about the same as the number of forein reporters in the entire African continent.
It is used by many world leader to explain why things are bad and distract their own people. It is easy for the western world to blame Islamic terrorism on Israel and for arab leader to explain why their coutries are backward 3rd world countries. They hate it because Israel proves that it is possible to create a successful western country here without any oil or natural resources. It is also the only democracy between Morroco and Pakistan. Israel has space technology since the 70's (only 5 other counties in the world have launcing capabilities), is one of the top in the world in published scientific papers per capita and in the 90's produced more startup companies then the entire western europe combined. How can this be? it's because Israelies must be cheating.
Bozon
P.S.
Israel does not have nuclear weapons. The official response is "Israel will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons to the middle east". It has the technology the materials the knowhow and the means to launch it, so I guess it's just a matter of putting it together on a short notice.
-
Originally posted by Delirium
...That said, I don't understand the whole reason Israel is in the area.
Somebody named Moses first homesteaded the area a while back.
Why weren't they given part of Germany as war reparations instead of where they are now?
They wanted their holy places, and the UN General Assy drew the borders for the Jewish homeland where it is.
How can they lay claim to the area they currently reside, it seems as silly as the US giving land back to Spain, France, and England because they once resided here.
Why would you give back stolen property to the ones who stole it (see American Indians)
How come Israel has so much political weight? A country that is not a whole lot bigger than my state of Connecticut not only can tell the US what it wants to do, but it also has nuclear weapons.
They have a powerful friend.
Why wasn't the area Israel that currently resides on become a neutral territory? That whole area is the nexus of several religions and should belong to no single group.
The '46 (or was it '47... 48?) UNGA resolution made Jeruselum a neutral international city, it didn't take.
I'm sure I'll be accused of an anti-Semitism bias, but the above just doesn't make sense to me.
As both Jews and Arabs are semites, by choosing to favor one semite over another, you are not anti-semitic.
-
oh yes, and the question of whether or not there was a Palestinian nation/state is mute. These people exist now, and regardless of history they need a solution.
Bozon
-
moot. Mimes are mute.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
moot. Mimes are mute.
no they aren't, but their pantomime is
-
I allways get a kick out of these signs:
(http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_11.gif)
(http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gif)
-
So what? Just tell the Palestinians that they and their land doesn't exit, problems solved.
Originally posted by lasersailor184
However, jews have always been in Israel. They might not have had self own of the land around them, but they've always been there.
Nah, Canaanites were there before the Isrealies.
-
Reminds me of the original people of the North american continent.
They no longer live as a nation, a new race of people and a new country took them over........
-
Hi All,
A minor point that doesn't seem to have been made. The Arabs who identify themselves as "Palestinians" are not descendents of the Canaanites. The Canaanites themselves were a mixed bag of races, and most of them were settlers in the region as well. For instance the infamous Philistines from which we get the name Palestine were Phoenecian colonists who seized the coastlands and the great cities of Gaza, Ekron, Ashkelon, Ashdod and Gath from the Amorites. These Canaanite nations were in turn replaced themselves.
The history of Arab settlement in the area dates back to 636 AD. Up until that time the area had been controlled by the Byzantines (the Eastern successors of the Romans) and was considered a Christian area. The Byzantines however had been much weakened by constant fighting with the Persian Empire to East (which at that time was Zoroastrian). All of that changed when the Arab armies of the Jihad (or Fatah an Arabic word meaning the conquest or reclaiming of land and its permanent addition to the Dar-El-Islam) came boiling out of the Arabian Peninsula under the direction of Caliph Umar and his brilliant general Kahlid Ibn Al Walid. These armies of Jihad won a great victory over the Byzantines in the Golan Heights at a place the Arabs call Yarmuk. No single battle has more importance in Islamic history, for it marked the point at which Islam became an unstoppable force in the Middle East. Within a few years the Dar-El-Islam included the Persian empire, the Arabian Peninsula, and North Africa. It continued to expand relentlessly until the tide was reversed in the 15 and 16th centuries.
The claim of the Palestinians therefore lies in an idea that is religious rather than tribal or nationalistic and is clearly expressed in the charter of Hamas. Namely, that the area itself is an Islamic Waqf, literally land set aside or "consecrated" for Muslims until judgment day. Once an area or inheritance is declared "Waqf" it is irreversible it can never again revert and any attempt to do so is considered intollerable and there is an obligation upon all Muslims to fight to restore a stolen Waqf.
From the Hamas Charter: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it."
Hence, until the land is returned to Islamic rule, there can be no peace in the region. The critical issue is not really over whether the land is Palestinian, but is it a Waqf? Clearly the vast majority of the Arabs in the region believe that to be the case and under those circumstances, peace is impossible until and unless the Jewish nation ceases to exist.
- SEAGOON
-
When I say always, I mean in comparison to everyone else.
Anyway, It's not like a whole ****load of jews suddenly show up in Israel in 1946 after the war. The zionist movement had majorly kicked in around 1900 when jews started moving into Israel in larger and larger numbers. It was only the UN mandate that made it official.
-
Yanno, sometimes you guys just suprise me.
Just when I have had my fill of "I'm teh Wootness of teh L33T" you go and start a thread that is a very well thought out discussion on multiple viewpoints.
No racist, moronic digs, no short sighted sound bite biased repetition, just a good solid discussion.
I had to log back in to make sure I was at the right website :D
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
Let me say it s-l-o-w-l-y maybe the logic will s-l-o-w-l-y sink in.
There... has... never... been..a...people... called... the.. Palestinian People.
it..was...made...up...by...an ....Egyptian...named...Yassar Arafat.
I don't negate this I just expose your lack of logic.
look at your predicate :
1. there has never been a "Palestinian People"
2.There has never been a "Palestinian Government"
Don't you see something wrong ?
btw a good lecture (for a start) would be this article : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_Logic
-
Give California the Palestinian.
Problem solved.
-
That said, I don't understand the whole reason Israel is in the area.
Why weren't they given part of Germany as war reparations instead of where they are now?
Because the Zionist movement was not a response to Nazi genocide, it was a response to earlier European anti Semitism. As such, by 1945 there was already substantial momentum behind a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
How can they lay claim to the area they currently reside,
Needs must. The Jews needed a homeland. Because of the historical links, the only realistic option was Palestine.
It's tough on the Palestinians, of course, and what the last 50 years have proved is that the Palestinians also need a homeland.
Why wasn't the area Israel that currently resides on become a neutral territory? That whole area is the nexus of several religions and should belong to no single group.
Jerusalem was supposed to be. As part of the partition plan, Jerusalem was designated an international city, not part of either the Jewish or Palestinian state. Neither side accepted that, the British wanted their troops out because they were fed up of getting shot at by both sides, and the rest of the international community weren't prepared to send troops to ensure a peacefull transition.
Reminds me of the original people of the North american continent.
They no longer live as a nation, a new race of people and a new country took them over.
The difference is the new race of people eventually gave them citizenship, and equality under the law. For most Palestinians, the new nation (Israel) has given them military occupation)
Today 95% of the Palestinians live under Palestinian Control, under the direct administration of the Fatah party (Now hamas a terrorist organization with one objective the destruction of israel) and the PLO, which renamed itself the PA (Palestine Authority).
No. Most of the Palestinians (nowhere near 95%, though) live under some level of civil control by the PA, but still under Israeli military control. The PA is not a national government, not even the equivalent of a US state government, more like a US town administration.
This was simply a trick by Arafat to try to claim territory which has always belonged to Israel.
How has it "always belonged to Israel"? Did it belong to Israel 200 years ago? A thousand years ago? Not even 2000 years ago, in fact.
Some Arabs did settle there in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and they have been given the chance to integrate into Israel.
Some Arabs settled in Palestine in the late 1800s? Who exactly lived there before that?
The first truly reliable census of Palestine was the British one of 1922.
Moslems ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 590,890
Jews ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 83,794
Christians ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 73,024
Druzes ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7,028
Samaritans ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 163
Bahais ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 265
Metawallis ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 156
Hindoos ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 1,454
Sikhs ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 408
However, most of the Palestinians who claim to be “Palestinian:” have jordanian, syrian, lebanese, and egyptian Passports. In other words, they are imports and illegals. The goal is to overwhelm Jews by Immigration and population transfers.
Most don't have passports at all. Those who do have foreign passports because Israel won't accept them as citizens, nor allow them to form their own country.
In other words, they are imports and illegals.
I do find it strange that in attempts to rewrite history people claim the Arabs of Palestine were "imports", when in fact the Jews of Israel really are "imports". For example, Arafat is labelled an Egyptian, despite his family being from Jerusalem. The first four Israeli prime ministers came from Poland, Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine. The sixth, seventh and eighth came from Russia, Poland and Poland. But of course, it was Arafat who was the foreigner.
-
Originally posted by straffo
Give California the Palestinian.
Problem solved.
they would fit right in, bombs and all.
-
Seagoon...thank you for posting the exact reason Arabs identify with the Palestine region.
Originally posted by weaselsan
The Modern Term Palestine came back into usage both as a response of the Jews to reclaim a homeland of their own, and because the British Empire administered the territory of what used to be ancient Israel.
The British called this territory “the Palestinian mandate”. However the term “Palestine” has always historically been used to refer to a Jewish Nation and a Jewish Homeland. Prior to the British taking over their “Palestinian Mandate” [which actually meant “Jewish mandate”], the territory of Palestine was administered by the Turkish Ottoman Empire (which vaporized and imploded in WW1).
This is an interesting look into revisionist history.
Palestine being tied to a Jewish homeland is a Zionist concept that was first seen in the mid 1800's (Discourse on the Restoration of the Jews, 1844). The concept gained recognition in the early 1900s culminating after WWI with the League of Nations creating the British Mandate of Palestine & Trans-Jordan. However, most Jews believed this to be a radical movement. And it was supported by European anti-Semites who wanted Jews out of their country. This was recognized by most Jews, thus Zionism was frequently looked on with some scorn as a tool to push them out of modern cities and into a backwards, arid territory with few comforts. Only after the Holocaust did Zionism become a mainstream concept in the Jewish community.
The Palestine territory has been recognized as an Arab territory since the 7th Century (as Seagoon correctly pointed out). And it has been known as Palestine during that time. Below are historical maps of the area dating back over 400 years that clearly identify the area as Palestine (and note how few Jewish named settlements exist). So, Palestine used to describe an Arab territory is not new at all.
Rand-McNally, 1897 (http://www.davidrumsey.com/maps4419.html)
George Cram Family Atlas, 1890 (http://www.heritageantiquemaps.com/Gallery/Cram,%20George/cram1890palestine.jpg)
Sam Mitchell, c. 1867 (http://www.heritageantiquemaps.com/Gallery/Mitchell,%20Agustus/Map%20Images/Mitchell,%20HolyLand.jpg)
John Tallis, c. 1850 (http://image11.fcla.edu/cgi/i/image/image-idx?sid=9bb61851d324ba13a92dee8c08e39d89;q1=MAPME;rgn1=map_pj;c=map;a=64;quality=3;view=entry;subview=detail;lasttype=boolean;cc=map;entryid=x-uf00003781;viewid=UF00003781;start=1;resnum=20)
d'Anville, 1767 (http://image11.fcla.edu/cgi/i/image/image-idx?sid=9bb61851d324ba13a92dee8c08e39d89;q1=MAPME;rgn1=map_pj;c=map;a=64;quality=3;view=entry;subview=detail;lasttype=boolean;cc=map;entryid=x-uf00003782;viewid=UF00003782;start=21;resnum=21)
Homann Heirs, 1752 (http://www.heritageantiquemaps.com/Gallery/Homan/Heirs1750Palestine.jpg)
Abraham Ortelius, 1575 (the lower right box calls the area Palestinae) (http://www.heritageantiquemaps.com/Gallery/Ortelius/Ortelius1575Palestinae.jpg)
The revisionist history that Palestine never existed, or that the area was empty and desolate until the Isrealis came with jobs for Arabs, is necessary to justify taking the land from Palestinians...and make it OK.
I don't condone the methods the Palestinians have used against the Isrealis. But before these people were called terrorists, they were farmers and fishermen, and goat hearders...not much of a threat to anyone. Only after massive and illegal immigration of Zionists into their land that overturned their culture did they become a threat.
Personally, I'm not sure I would react much differently should wave after wave of socialists from south of the border start illegally flooding the US to the point that they politically take over...use government to steal land from me and my family to give to their families...make Spanish the official language...and rename my country to Estados Latinos Unidos de América. I'd probably fight back too.
-
Originally posted by crowMAW
I don't condone the methods the Palestinians have used against the Isrealis. But before these people were called terrorists, they were farmers and fishermen, and goat hearders...not much of a threat to anyone. Only after massive and illegal immigration of Zionists into their land that overturned their culture did they become a threat.
Personally, I'm not sure I would react much differently should wave after wave of socialists from south of the border start illegally flooding the US to the point that they politically take over...use government to steal land from me and my family to give to their families...make Spanish the official language...and rename my country to Estados Latinos Unidos de América. I'd probably fight back too.
Sound like a vuagly familiour story only in a different location?
Sayyyyy North American 1800's during the Westward expansion
-
1759 Map of Israel, indicating the 12 tribes of Israel.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e8/1759_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg/715px-1759_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg)
-
1752 and 1575 trumps 1759 LOL
And can anyone do a translation on what it says in the upper left hand side.
Near as I can tell it says something about sanctity and "Terra" (meaning land I assume) and Palistine.
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
1759 Map of Israel, indicating the 12 tribes of Israel.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e8/1759_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg/715px-1759_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg)
And the name of the region according to the map? Looks like...Palnstina. Hmmm...
-
There is a region called Appalachia. People live there.
here's a map (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/appalachia/map.html)
It is not, and never has been, a country.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
There is a region called Appalachia. People live there.
here's a map (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/appalachia/map.html)
It is not, and never has been, a country.
Look what the map says in the upper right hand corner. It does not say Appalachia. It seems you missed my original post Palestine was and is the ancient home of the Jews I noticed you missed the part that says Juda Israel
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
Very simple...agree that Israel has the right to exist, and stop sending in Morons to kill innocent people with the promise of 72 virgins and a pat on the back from Allah. However, I will post the Hamas doctrine here if you would like to see it. It doesn't bode well for peace in the area.
You would have thought that they got the message after Burak had given in to 99% of everything that Arafat was asking for and all they got was the Intifada. Most of my Liberal friends (Both of them actually) were sure when he was elected that it was "Peace in our time". Until I pointed out that Arafat 1> was corrupt and in it for the money, and 2> was a dead man if he offered peace to the Israelis under any circumstances. I was wrong according to them all the way up to the first rocks being thrown. Then they changed the subject, which brings us to Hamas,
Im Jewish. I know the history:)
There can be know peace with them in the here and now. They want the total destruction of Israel. Making peace with them is akin to making peace with the Religious Fanatics we are fighting now.
-
Originally posted by straffo
Give California the Palestinian.
Problem solved.
Look what happened when you gave Paris to the Moroccans. Bar- b- q Citroens.
-
Originally posted by Seagoon
The claim of the Palestinians therefore lies in an idea that is religious rather than tribal or nationalistic and is clearly expressed in the charter of Hamas. Namely, that the area itself is an Islamic Waqf, literally land set aside or "consecrated" for Muslims until judgment day. Once an area or inheritance is declared "Waqf" it is irreversible it can never again revert and any attempt to do so is considered intollerable and there is an obligation upon all Muslims to fight to restore a stolen Waqf.
- SEAGOON
Reminds me of the Theme song from the Movie "Exodus" About the creation of the nation of Israel. First line......
"This land is mine....God gave this land to me".
And the Muslims have veto over this? Islam began in the 7th Century. I believe the Jewish faith is slightly older and have dibs on God given lands.
-
Mixing religion with politics?
Yeah that has worked well in Afghanistan and in Iran + plenty of other countries.
-
Originally posted by Staga
Mixing religion with politics?
Yeah that has worked well in Afghanistan and in Iran + plenty of other countries.
Move along Staga, there's nothing to see here.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
And can anyone do a translation on what it says in the upper left hand side.
Near as I can tell it says something about sanctity and "Terra" (meaning land I assume) and Palistine.
I could translate if it were larger, but I can't make out all the words. Terra Sancta means Holy Land.
-
Hi Guys,
Just a quick note, the portions of the map that I can see clearly enough to read say "Holy Land...Palestine... Judah and Israel" - Sorry, my eyesight is going. If someone can transcribe the other words, I can try to give a full translation if necessary.
The reference to the Kingdom of Judah and Israel is the post Solomonic division of the land into the Kingdom of Samaria containing the Ten Northern Tribes and the Kingdom of Judah including Judah and Benjamin (1 Kings 12)
The map itself is a Bible Map, but while it shows the historic land alotments as detailed in Joshua, the boundaries are particularly poorly drawn and geographically speaking its a terrible map. The other interesting thing is that it gives the Old and New Testament names of regions (i.e. Edom is listed as both Edom (OT) and Idumea (NT) ) as well as making the land to the East "Arabia" which is how the NT refers to the desert to the East of Israel.
- SEAGOON
-
Originally posted by Silat
Im Jewish. I know the history:)
There can be know peace with them in the here and now. They want the total destruction of Israel. Making peace with them is akin to making peace with the Religious Fanatics we are fighting now.
Who is this "they" and "them" you are talking about, or you just making sweeping generalisations about the Palestinians? I saw polling research done by a joint Isreali/Palestinian organization that showed that the majority of both are willing to recognise the right for both nations to exist if it ment peace.
-
Hi Thrawn,
Originally posted by Thrawn
I saw polling research done by a joint Isreali/Palestinian organization that showed that the majority of both are willing to recognise the right for both nations to exist if it ment peace.
I would be interested to see the polling data plus the actual question asked if you can post it.
But in any event, actions speak louder than words. The Israelis have proven their bona fides in desiring peace and coexistance via their willingness to repeatedly cede land (including the Gaza Strip). Whereas the majority of Palestinians recently elected Hamas, and kicked Fatah out of office. Hamas is a Muslim brotherhood organization which specifically believes that all of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf and cannot be ceded in whole or in part to any infidel state. They are absolutely and irreconcilably opposed to any peace that does not involve the permanent disolution of the Jewish state of Israel. They are Jihadists who have offered no major peacetime political agenda. They believe such plans will only be possible after Palestine has been returned to the Dar-El-Islam.
- SEAGOON
-
Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Thrawn,
I would be interested to see the polling data plus the actual question asked if you can post it.
Here is the orginal poll I saw.
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2003/p8ejoint.html
It looks like they have done one since.
http://www.usip.org/newsmedia/releases/2005/shamir_survey.pdf
But in any event, actions speak louder than words. The Israelis have proven their bona fides in desiring peace and coexistance via their willingness to repeatedly cede land (including the Gaza Strip).
I see your point. But at the same time the annexed further Palestinian land with thier wall.
Whereas the majority of Palestinians recently elected Hamas, and kicked Fatah out of office. Hamas is a Muslim brotherhood organization which specifically believes that all of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf and cannot be ceded in whole or in part to any infidel state. They are absolutely and irreconcilably opposed to any peace that does not involve the permanent disolution of the Jewish state of Israel. They are Jihadists who have offered no major peacetime political agenda. They believe such plans will only be possible after Palestine has been returned to the Dar-El-Islam.
- SEAGOON
Yeah, dumb move on thier part vis-a-vis Isreal. But it's my understanding that they switched to Hamas because they believed Hamas would deal with domestic government corruption, not necessarily because of thier policy regarding Isreal.
-
I've always laughed when someone called themselves Palestinian, or said something about how they should have their own country. On the basis that it never even frickin existed is why I laugh. Thank you for making it even clearer Weasalsan.
:lol Palestinian citizens :rofl
-
Right, but you wanted the questions as well, they can be found here...
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2003/p8a.html
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
"This land is mine....God gave this land to me".
And the Muslims have veto over this? Islam began in the 7th Century. I believe the Jewish faith is slightly older and have dibs on God given lands.
Saying the land belongs to Isreal today because "God Promised it " to them
Makes about as much sense as Us giving the north ameican continent back to the native americans.
But even if I were to go along with such a silly arguement
If Memory serves correct God gave them the land and promised it to them but also told them it was up to them to keep it. which, they did not.
The only reason there is an Isreal today is not because God gave the land to them. but rather the UN. Which seems to think its god. but really is not.
Dont get me wrong I have nothing at all against Isreal or the Jews one way or the other.
And if there is an Isreal, or isnt to me is neither here nor there.
But just as a matter of personal opinion I dont see how either side has any more or less claim to the land then the other
And I just dont buy into the "Because God promised it to us" arguement.
Walk into any court in the world and try and claim something is yours because "God promised it to" you And see what kind of reaction you get.
Its just not a valid arguement
-
How was the land acquired in 1948? What of the people living there? Did they have a say in the matter? I just dont see how you can take millions of people and put them somewhere in the world and say here ya go. Someone got the short end of the stick.
Personally I think after the waste of the jews in ww2, much of the world felt they were owed something, and did what they did..and felt ok with it. During the cold war, its location made most folks think of them as the "good" people living among those less good.
Now...all the smoke is starting to clear and people are asking questions.
-
I say whoever can kick the **** out of the other guy deserves the land. Thats the way its always been. Im honestly amazed the jews havent eradicated the arabs as a matter of neccessity. The jews had better wipe those islamic suiciders out before they get their hands on a nuclear warhead.
Its either the jews get wiped out or the arabs.....who would you prefer???
-
Originally posted by FiLtH
How was the land acquired in 1948? What of the people living there? Did they have a say in the matter? I just dont see how you can take millions of people and put them somewhere in the world and say here ya go. Someone got the short end of the stick.
Personally I think after the waste of the jews in ww2, much of the world felt they were owed something, and did what they did..and felt ok with it. During the cold war, its location made most folks think of them as the "good" people living among those less good.
Now...all the smoke is starting to clear and people are asking questions.
The allies felt sorry for the Jews so they got friendly and gave them a nice chunk of "holy land" as said in the map previously posted.
It started because after the demise of the Ottoman Empire after WW1, Britain and France mostly but a few other countries gained control of the land that was the former Ottoman Empire. What to do with all the land that they gained? Give it to Jews that were almost obliviated by the Nazis.
Blame the Ottoman Empire, not the U.N.;)
-
Originally posted by nirvana
I've always laughed when someone called themselves Palestinian, or said something about how they should have their own country. On the basis that it never even frickin existed is why I laugh. Thank you for making it even clearer Weasalsan.
:lol Palestinian citizens :rofl
Nothing a extermination camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_extermination_camp) can't solve.
It's funny how the Lebensunwertes Leben addict allways have a good legal reason to behave like complusive cretin (I'm thinking of you among others weaseldork,nirvana )
Hi res map is availlable here :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/1759_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg
It's the way how I feel now in this BBS.
source page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites
Your truly
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fr/f/f3/Marquage_nazi_prisonnier_politiques_fran%C3%A7ais.png)
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
I see your point. But at the same time the annexed further Palestinian land with thier wall.
While the wall in most parts lies a little east to the 1948 cease fire lines (the "green line"), the land between the wall and the green line has not been oficially annexed and is still considered occupied territory by Israeli law. The only land officially annexed is the eastern part of Jerusalem.
The land captured in 1967 was taken from Jordan and Egypt, not from Palestine. Those coutries do not want it back, especially Jordan whose Hashemite ruling minority fear of a Palestinian take over. Jordan was willing to give away the west bank to get rid of those people, just as much as Israel plans to, for the exact same reason. So now you have people stuck here, who are arabs but not Hashemites, who have no country that wants them. If you want, that could be the definition of Palestinians.
From the Israeli point of view, 1948 lines are cease fire lines (not recognized international borders) just as much as 1967 are cease fire lines. The fact that the arab world suddenly see 1948 lines as borders is already a vast improvement (if only they had recognize it BEFORE 1967...).
Bozon
-
Originally posted by straffo
Hi res map is availlable here :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/1759_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg[/IMG]
I'll give translating a shot (although there are still some words I can't figure out)
HOLY LANDS
or(?)
PALESTINE
shown along with
the old kingdoms
JUDA and ISRAEL
from the flight of the 12 separate Tribes
but also
different boundaries at the time
necessarily created
and declared by the Sacred People (countrymen).
A GEOGRAPHICAL MAP
decorative novalty
made in the Studio of
Tobiae Conradi Lotter
Geographer
published August
1759
I dunno...my Latin is pretty rusty. Seagoon will probably do a much better job.
-
Straffo, I find that post horribly offensive and belongs on the 'StormFront' forums.
edit: I was refering to the first line of your reply.
That said, I'll bet your grandmother had her head shaved in 1944.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Who is this "they" and "them" you are talking about, or you just making sweeping generalisations about the Palestinians? I saw polling research done by a joint Isreali/Palestinian organization that showed that the majority of both are willing to recognise the right for both nations to exist if it ment peace.
They = Hamas, fanatics the current political power......Arent you following the jist of this thread?
-
Originally posted by Silat
They = Hamas, fanatics the current political power......Arent you following the jist of this thread?
Yeah, it's about Palestine and Palestinians. Don't know how to write for clarity? ;)
Bozon, thanks for the information.
-
Originally posted by Delirium
Straffo, I find that post horribly offensive and belongs on the 'StormFront' forums.
edit: I was refering to the first line of your reply.
How it is less offensive than your sentence below :
That said, I'll bet your grandmother had her head shaved in 1944. [/B]
For your information in 1944 she was already dead ,killed at birkenau during winter 1943
now I guess you won't apologise.
-
It is called 'tit for tat'.
If you're going to swing, expect reprisals.
-
Besides, anyone that embraces extermination camps should expect someone to question the loyalty of their family during WWII.
-
Hey guys, like I posted in the other thread (which people probably ignored anyway) was that Palestine is a geographical area.
A country is a political area. I.E. You can redraw the borders of germany. But you cannot change the location of the Bavarian Forest.
-
Originally posted by Delirium
Besides, anyone that embraces extermination camps should expect someone to question the loyalty of their family during WWII.
My prettythang , I was not the one questioning the existence of other human being regarding only their existence from an administrative point of view.
And btw I also question the loyalty of your familly
In fact as you didn't apologise , it don't need to be a nobel price to understand were your fidelity is going, mister Nazi.
-
Oops! end of thread.... "Nazi" mentioned.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Saying the land belongs to Isreal today because "God Promised it " to them
Makes about as much sense as Us giving the north ameican continent back to the native americans.
It wasn't meant to be an argument for Israel's existence, it was in response to Seagoons explaination of the reason Muslims claim the land. But I noticed you didn't read the part of the quote I was responding to.
-
Originally posted by straffo
My prettythang mister Nazi.
He used profanities and used the 'Nazi' word in a single post. What do I win?
'A kill has been recorded'
-
Originally posted by Delirium
He used profanities and used the 'Nazi' word in a single post. What do I win?
'A kill has been recorded'
LOL...Straffo doesn't count, he's French. He's probably still pi$$ed off about the Bar B Q Citroen remark.
-
Originally posted by weaselsan
It wasn't meant to be an argument for Israel's existence, it was in response to Seagoons explaination of the reason Muslims claim the land. But I noticed you didn't read the part of the quote I was responding to.
Actually I did adress that in the other thread that I assume spawned this one.
that I didnt buy either arguement
-
Originally posted by Delirium
Besides, anyone that embraces extermination camps should expect someone to question the loyalty of their family during WWII.
Poor Cretin, have you any idea what Birkenau is ?