Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ast on January 27, 2006, 04:13:07 PM
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Okay guys, I'm pretty new to all this, now last night I had an odd situation. I was in a P-51D at 20k feet, there was a furball below me to my 9 oclock low, probably at about 10k feet. I dropped my tanks, switched to my guns, and rolled over into a slight dive straight into the furball, which was about 6v8, nme with advantage, including one 262 upping from the field at the time. I hit about 500 on the red dot(True airspeed?) and 460 on IAS. I was at aobut a 4 degree AoA coming down on this furball, I had the target(BF109) in my sights at 400, I squeeze, miss, 200 comes quickly, hit hit hit, wing falls off. Splash 1 and pull up into a Zoom climb. I used my stored energy(Altitude) to trade for speed. Now, I pulled back up, but somehow, even at that speed, a Spit 5 or 9, can't remember which, caught my tail, and somehow he FOLLOWED me up to about a 3,000ft/m climb rate, while he was turn fighting? HOW did he merge on me and keep up with me when he was going *much* slower than me? I started a slow left not to bleed E, I then pulled an immelman, and came down back into the furball with plenty of speed, suddenly I hear the familiar ping ping, the dang spit 5/9 followed me up from a high E high speed dive zoom and boom tactic and pinged me on my way back down, I realize he was a MUCH better pilot, but explain to me what I did wrong here? I used my advantages as good as I could. I'm tryin to learn but it's just so discouraging when I do what I can and it still doesn't work.
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Only a guess here, better pilots can probably give much better info on this, but with your confusion whether it was a spit5 or a 9, it may have been that it was a spit8, or mostly likely, actually a spit16. While I don't have the specific specs on this, the Spit16 is one of the very fastest planes and climbers in the game. Like all spits they retain E very well and dive good too. With some E behind it, it may have been able to somewhat match you in your climb, and it may not have even been the plane you thought was doing the turning and burning in the furball. SA is one of the most difficult skills of the game and confusion of where an enemy comes from and his actual E state can happen very easily.
This is the only explanation I can think of as I don't think the spit5 could be as efficient as you describe and though the spit9 just might. But IMO the spit16 definitely could.
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It was a different spit, and that couldn't have been a furball if it was 10k.
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I was reading your little pilot breif here, but its A little hazy to put together, you must understand that if you have A tape then we could point out everything.
:confused:
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You should probably start filming your fights - that way you can go over what happened afterwards, and then show others the exact situation if you need further help with it. Generally this kind of stuff is a combination of managing your energy (pulling too many G's and bleeding more speed then you need to), reading the energy state of other planes (that low con might have just come out of his own dive and be doing 400+mph), and situational awareness (it could have been a second plane of the same type that was in a better position and bounced you).
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I agree with Sloehand
Rember your S/A might not be up to par, it could have been A totaly different Spitfire then you first thought.
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In AH there is no such thing as a 10k furball. Not since the pizza map where the ground was 10k in some places, anyway.
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ast, dont get discouraged, when you're new its often hard to understand how a pilot does what he does. just keep at it, you'll catch on soon enough, i promise
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I agree, different spitfire joined your 10k furball. Be glad it wasn't a complete circle jerk on the deck or there woulda been 3 different spitfires.
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Furball to me is a fight over 10 people, I'm sorry I am trying to understand. So your telling me that a spit, that was turn fighting slowly with hurricane can merge on me going 500mph and keep up with me?
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No, I'm telling you that another spit from 3.5k away is diving on you now and you just hadn't noticed him yet. Somehow you've missed seeing the 1st one break off and are really looking at #2.
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No, they are not trying to tell you that, because it can’t happen. It must have been a Spit you did not see, or you greatly misjudged the Spit you were focused on. As others have already stated having a good situational awareness is not a quickly learned skill. Your looking at months or years to gradually improve that skill. Use your film viewer. That will help you see what you did wrong.
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:rofl
1) this is a troll
2) it was a different spit
3) You just had an experience of AH physics where a spit can pull 180 and follow you up (Highly unlikly since that would be impossible)
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Originally posted by Ast
I was in a P-51D at 20k feet, there was a furball below me to my 9 oclock low, probably at about 10k feet.
Good so far.
I dropped my tanks, switched to my guns, and rolled over into a slight dive straight into the furball
If you were going for BNZ you should have circled around to get a clear view of where all enemy cons were. By diving slightly you gave all the enemy cons a chance to follow your path and call 6's as needed as well as be prepared for your climb.
I used my stored energy(Altitude) to trade for speed. Now, I pulled back up, but somehow, even at that speed, a Spit 5 or 9, can't remember which, caught my tail, and somehow he FOLLOWED me up to about a 3,000ft/m climb rate, while he was turn fighting?
Probably another spit or you misjudged his E. Spit16's can accelerate so fast in a dive that if you went after the 109 2-3k under the spit he could build up enough E by merging on you as you climbed. Spit16 also holds E much better than a pony and climbs better.
I started a slow left not to bleed E
Any turn blows E, and the spit holds his better than you.
I then pulled an immelman, and came down back into the furball with plenty of speed, suddenly I hear the familiar ping ping, the dang spit 5/9 followed me up from a high E high speed dive zoom and boom tactic and pinged me on my way back down, I realize he was a MUCH better pilot, but explain to me what I did wrong here?
You should have extended away from the spit, by pulling an immelman you allowed him to cut you off in the turn and close the distance.
I used my advantages as good as I could. I'm tryin to learn but it's just so discouraging when I do what I can and it still doesn't work.
Next time get a good idea of the whole situation you are in. Rather than start diving in immediatley circle around the fight a bit until you are sure of their altitudes. Find how far you can dive most directly from the top of the target rather than try to roll in easy on his 6. Circling down to 15-16k or so directly on top of the fight(staying about 325-375) and diving in on the highest of the cons probably would have worked better. Taking a leisurely path down gives them more opprotunity to check6 or set you up to be worked down. When I BnZ I come in almost directly on top of my target. When your advantage is about gone from these more direct passes extend and climb again. It's boring but that's how BnZ goes. If it's a spit on you get co-E(and try to stay) above his max speed and go relatively level. If you don't burn too much E you should be in the clear as he will eventually slow down below your maximum speed.
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Originally posted by nimble
Next time get a good idea of the whole situation you are in. Rather than start diving in immediatley circle around the fight a bit until you are sure of their altitudes. Find how far you can dive most directly from the top of the target rather than try to roll in easy on his 6. Circling down to 15-16k or so directly on top of the fight(staying about 325-375) and diving in on the highest of the cons probably would have worked better. Taking a leisurely path down gives them more opprotunity to check6 or set you up to be worked down. When I BnZ I come in almost directly on top of my target. When your advantage is about gone from these more direct passes extend and climb again. It's boring but that's how BnZ goes. If it's a spit on you get co-E(and try to stay) above his max speed and go relatively level. If you don't burn too much E you should be in the clear as he will eventually slow down below your maximum speed.
Thank you, that was great advice! I'm gonna try that next time! What you said makes alot more sense to me. The more and more I think about it, I may have massively misjudged this fight, information was from the people in the area, maybe I was so fixated on that 262 coming up that I didn't see another spit that had enough to keep with me. DOH! I have GOT to get more SA. Last night I flew offline for a while trying to keep the enemy in my view at all times without blacking out and that helped a bit, I mistook this game for a regular flight sim, it's not. It's insanely fun and challenging. And no, I'M not a troll, but I am trying to learn. I will start filming EVERY flight from now on so I can go back.
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Film every fight, before you engage, start film, then stop it after the kill, or when you are in the tower :) which ever comes first. This will make short films, easier to send or post.
Another option you may have over looked in the above fight... the first spit may not have been the one that pinged you up, it may have been one "turnin and burnin" in the fight. Some of these guys have unbelievable timing due to years of experiance. A pony doing a BnZ pass is pretty easy to know where he will pass on his run. With the skills in timing some of these guys have they will turn to where they KNOW you will pass and just blast a few rounds out there. Some of these guys, thats all they need there aim and timing is so good.
Hang in there, it sounds like your getting the hang of it. Askin questions instead of complaining about what happened is a good sign :aok
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Thanks Fugative, I'm tryin. My situational awareness is my biggest problem. I just have trouble keeping my eyes around me instead of getting the bogie focus. :(
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I mistook this game for a regular flight sim, it's not. It's insanely fun and challenging.
Yes it is.
How are your views set up? How much time do you spend looking around, checking your different views? Can you still manuver your plane while your view is loolking behind, up or sideways?
If you are looking forward more than a few seconds at a time in a fight, you are not looking around enough and you will miss alot.
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at 10k the spit will push 300 mph in level flight no problem, the spit16 even faster.
you were going 500mph when you dived on the 109, but pulling hard for the shot and to zoom you would have lost speed to make you around 400mph.
lets say the spit is flying at 300 in a slight dive during this moment.
you have zoomed back up and the spit followed, had you leveled off at the top he would be stuck 1-1.5k below you.
you instead looped back down, and the spit was stalling, hanging on his prop unknown to you.
if all you heard was a ping ping ping, there is a good chance the spit got a good crossing deflection as you zoomed past him, or her, which is not too hard to imagine.
then of course there is that fact it was another spit maybe.
heres a quick diagram to explain my thoughts.
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/quickpic.JPG)
this is using the theory that it was a spitmkV, that was already in the furball, not an unseen foe, that could have climbed alot higher with you.
sometimes its hard to remember that a single snapshot is all one needs to kill, an La7 zooming past at 550mph will still go down if a flak hits it from 1.5k.
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Originally posted by Ast
.............I pulled back up, but somehow, even at that speed, a Spit 5 or 9, can't remember which, caught my tail, and somehow he FOLLOWED me up to about a 3,000ft/m climb rate, while he was turn fighting?
HOW did he merge on me and keep up with me when he was going *much* slower than me?
I started a slow left not to bleed E, I then pulled an immelman, and came down back into the furball with plenty of speed, suddenly I hear the familiar ping ping, the dang spit 5/9 followed me up from a high E high speed dive zoom and boom tactic and pinged me on my way back down, I realize he was a MUCH better pilot, but explain to me what I did wrong here?
I used my advantages as good as I could. I'm tryin to learn but it's just so discouraging when I do what I can and it still doesn't work.
Definetly need a film here. My guess would be you pulled up to steep, lost energy on the immelman and didnt see the spit before he latched onto your six.
With p51d it would probably payed off to extend away from the spit instead of climbing, spit8/9/14/16 climb pretty good. Probably it was not a spit5 but a 9 or 8. Pony isnt bad but climbs way worse than the spit.
When you do a slow left turn you give him the chance to cut the corner considerably, if he sees the turn and hopes you continue it for a while he can shorten the distance by a big amount. So actually you see him closing (-) while he still is a lot slower than you.
Then when you turn around he again can cut the corner, because you had a lot of speed and did a wide turn or you did a tight turn and lost speed.
Spitfire has hispanos, if the pilot doesnt care for how much ammo he uses he can ping you up from 600 or 800 out if your going in a predictible path.
So basically he did cut the corner 2 times and you lost energy by turning around, he did a more energy efficiant turn around and used the gained distance to build up speed.
You didnt say from where he pinged you. You can verry well shoot someone from below, and since altitude is feet and distance is yards you can get a nice 400yards shot from 1000feet below the other guy while still being a lot slower, which essentially means that you dont need to have the same energy to ping someone.
How do you know it was the same spitfire? You wrote that there were 8 enemys, i can not keep track of more than 3 at a time. And if its 8 enemys they are not all at 10k standing still, might well have been this guy was 3k above the one you pinged.
- Film it
- Get better overview
- if you try to get away dont let the persuer cut corners
- check with some good bnz pilot if he gives you a ride (eg swoop,skatsr)
Good luck in future!
Fly knight, see the light :)
EDIT: just saw batfinks post, good explanation. Another point coming to my mind is that diving for a long way looses you lots of e since at some point the dive speed does no longer improove much but you loose alt to keep it. So maybe thinking "i have 10k alt advantage in E" is an mistake because the real advantage was only about 6k worth in alt once you were down to 10k. And some of the turnfighting enemys might have been coasting with high speed in a big circle around the furball, so the "slow spit" might have already had 350mph
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Good points so far.
Another thing i noticed. You said that youre practicing "tracking a target" offline *despite blacking out.....
Be aware that the higher G forces you pull, the more Energy youre loosing pulling that maneuver. You being close to blackout often (ie high G) means youre burning a *lot* of Energy.
If you want to turn quick/tight without loosing too much E, go vertical (unless you have someone on your tail - see Batfinks diagram).
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Good points so far.
Another thing i noticed. You said that youre practicing "tracking a target" offline *despite blacking out.....
Be aware that the higher G forces you pull, the more Energy youre loosing pulling that maneuver. You being close to blackout often (ie high G) means youre burning a *lot* of Energy.
If you want to turn quick/tight without loosing too much E, go vertical (unless you have someone on your tail - see Batfinks diagram).
That wasn't in the pony, that was in the spitfire and those enemy planes flying above the friendly airfields fly mighty slow! It'll just take time and I believe what Batfink said is either what happened, or there was another Spit that I did not see. But the diagram looks dead on to what I did. Back to reading Netaces!
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Or one suggestion is. That he could of been high as u just waiting for u to come down? Thats why I dont like to relay on the rope alot. Speacily trying to rope a good climbing spit. Id rather just put some flaps down and try to turn fight it thats where it gets really fun :) Film ur fight next time, always good to look back on old films, and lets better people help u easyier.
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netaces is a great site, but once you start to understand the basics of the game, its not going t help you much. the best experience you will earn is by flying. fly into crowded areas in the MA to practice SA, go to the TA for help and explanation, and a lot of indepth training, and if you want to practise dogfighting skills stop by the duelling arena, that's where you will learn to turn fight and learn how to evade people.
keep up with what you're doing. you seem like a nice guy, and you're learning fast, so just stick with it :)
also, if you're tuned to channel 200, and someone shoots you down like they did here, or if you see someone pull a move you dont understand, ask them on ch200, most of the time they will answer
and welcome to AH:)
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Originally posted by Pooface
netaces is a great site, but once you start to understand the basics of the game, its not going t help you much. the best experience you will earn is by flying. fly into crowded areas in the MA to practice SA, go to the TA for help and explanation, and a lot of indepth training, and if you want to practise dogfighting skills stop by the duelling arena, that's where you will learn to turn fight and learn how to evade people.
keep up with what you're doing. you seem like a nice guy, and you're learning fast, so just stick with it :)
also, if you're tuned to channel 200, and someone shoots you down like they did here, or if you see someone pull a move you dont understand, ask them on ch200, most of the time they will answer
and welcome to AH:)
Will do, just relearning all my BCM/ACM stuff! I'm having trouble shaking a bandit on my 6 no matter who it is. I'll get there, just need more practice. I'll be out of town after today til monday but then I'll record another try at this(BnZ in the Pony). and Let you guys critic it so I can get some good feedback on everything I did wrong. My biggest problem is situational awareness, but it's getting better now that I've adjusted my views to how I like them, and swivel my head instead of target focus. I've started to be checking all around me constantly, if I get a target, I'll focus in on him but keep my eyes peeled for someone coming in on me.
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thats good. what i suggest is that you move out of the pony just for a little while, and try something like a spitfire in the TA. spitfire is great learning plane, and if you need to learn how to shake a bandit, you will be a lot more successful in a spit than a pony. im not saying use spit in the MA all the time or anything, but i suggest if you're practicing on your own or in the TA/DA, jump in a spit mk5, things will come much quicker to you. once you can do it right in a spit, you just import those skills right into other planes. pony can turnfight pretty good too if you want, goes really nice in rolling scissors, but thats another, more advanced lesson lol
have fun most of all. if you're getting bored of being killed over and over in the MA, just log into the TA or DA instead, where you can learn stuff as you play
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Originally posted by Pooface
thats good. what i suggest is that you move out of the pony just for a little while, and try something like a spitfire in the TA. spitfire is great learning plane, and if you need to learn how to shake a bandit, you will be a lot more successful in a spit than a pony. im not saying use spit in the MA all the time or anything, but i suggest if you're practicing on your own or in the TA/DA, jump in a spit mk5, things will come much quicker to you. once you can do it right in a spit, you just import those skills right into other planes. pony can turnfight pretty good too if you want, goes really nice in rolling scissors, but thats another, more advanced lesson lol
have fun most of all. if you're getting bored of being killed over and over in the MA, just log into the TA or DA instead, where you can learn stuff as you play
With everything I ahve to do to succeed, theres simply no way to GET bored! :) I really do appreciate you guys here, this community is great! And I do use the spit at times, but I cannot get used to it in the MA. I will try and use it in the TA and DA some. Although the DA seems to have some uh, childish issues at times. The other night I did do something very useful though! We had 2 sets of buffs going in on a field, I flew high and ahead, and dove in, I brought there fighters out with me chasing me halfway across the area, so that by the time they realized the 24's where about to blow there base to smitherines, there was no reaction! WAHOO FOR ME! :p It doesn't matter if they killed me, I had a great time zooming in and making success for my teammates! and I am having alot of fun, but I do get discouraged at times.
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Originally posted by Ast
With everything I ahve to do to succeed, theres simply no way to GET bored! :) I really do appreciate you guys here, this community is great! And I do use the spit at times, but I cannot get used to it in the MA. I will try and use it in the TA and DA some. Although the DA seems to have some uh, childish issues at times. The other night I did do something very useful though! We had 2 sets of buffs going in on a field, I flew high and ahead, and dove in, I brought there fighters out with me chasing me halfway across the area, so that by the time they realized the 24's where about to blow there base to smitherines, there was no reaction! WAHOO FOR ME! :p It doesn't matter if they killed me, I had a great time zooming in and making success for my teammates! and I am having alot of fun, but I do get discouraged at times.
lol, its only natural, especially if you're new. the game learning curve can be quite scary to some people :)
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Originally posted by Pooface
lol, its only natural, especially if you're new. the game learning curve can be quite scary to some people :)
Challenging yes, scary, no! Luckily we have great people here who like to hear scenarios and love to help!
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I'm having trouble shaking a bandit on my 6 no matter who it is.
The only thing outside of training that is going to help this is flying low and into greater odds. When you get tired of it then go do some BnZ or something else.
For Shaking guys you need to use alot of power management, you need to be able to read you opponents "Thrust Vector" and their "Shot Vector". Once you can see these things, while looking behind you, only then do you know how hard to pull to stay out of his bullets.
Thrust Vector = the lline the plane is flying due to inertia, control and power elements. (Some I'm sure will have a better definition. I hope. )
Shot Vector - as you know bullets can not turn corners, so if you look at where their nose is pointing you can read where their bullets are going to go in relation to you.
Combine this with adjusting power and knowledge of the plane on your six and you can start to develope ways to shake people.
Flying the spit, hurri or FM2 are the best ways to have early success at this, buit you have to allow your enemy to get on your six. This is called baiting.
Once you have an enemy zooming down on you... When they are 1.5 out start a gradual left or right turn, then when they are 1.0 increase the turn pull hard enough that you are not on their "Thrust Vector" and you are out of the "Shot Vector", but not so hard that you end up perpendicular to their flight path. What you want to have happen is, they go flying by missing you by a few feet so that you can roll in behind them and get off a shot.
When you see the point that they are going to pass you, (usually when their canopy is about at your tail, roll back in on them. This is where the power adjustments are critical. If you notice they are slowing, you need to come off the power fast. If they are speeding by and going to overshoot keep the coal on so they dont go by so fast that you cant get a shot.
What you learn in doing the above will help you create tactics of your own to shake other people.
Search for posts from wildthing on reversals or anyone else. Learn to scisors effectively and what planes you can use it against.
Again save BnZ tactics for when you have had enough low and slow and dogeing other dropping in on you.
Go to the TA and ask people to show you what a reversal looks like.
Join other pilots planes to watch them in action. Most usually they will accept your request. If you do, thank the pilot when it's over.
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Great suggestions. I was suspicious of the same thing Batfink described, but he got there first....
I've been catching myself doing the same kind of thing when I go vertical -- I come down to soon, when the enemy still ahs enough speed to maneuver. That lets his smaller, slower loop cut inside my bigger, faster one... and gives him exactly that shot.
I'm sensing you're a faster learner than I was. This is my first real attempt at learning a flight sim, and MAN has it been hard. I tried to do too much on my own and learn by experience too much, and it cost me a lot of time. So let me offer a couple learning suggestions.
First, film a lot. Watch films from external, fixed persepective and use the trail and icon options when it gets interesting. edit: Then, switch to inside view and see what the maneuver looked like from the cockpit. Use the recorder's original view where possible; if you switch to a different plane, use your own view controls. If you get shot down, watch carefully to see what YOU looked liek to the killer -- you'll see mistakes faster that way. Keep an eye on the panel so you can see everybody's speed as they maneuver. Use films from squad libraries, adn dont hesitate to ask the authors (and others) about what you see. Here's a great film collection that helped me lots:
479th film library (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=20)
Seocnd, use the resources like Netaces and SimHQ. Netaces is the best when starting, but SimHQ's more advanced and detailed stuff can help early as well.
Third, when you think you've got an idea down -- whether its a scissor, an immelman, a break turn, whatever -- ask someone to check you out as you do it. You can set up appointments with trainers, or you can jsut ask somebody in the MA. You'll be even more amazed at the community when you see how "famous" names will be generous in helping out, ESPECIALLY when you have a specific agenda or goal. (Of course, there are jerks, but you'll filter them out easily enough.)
Fourth, as you get out and fight, develop the swivel neck. This took me the longest time to do, and I'm still not good at quickly judging energy situations. SA includes the important stuff about whats right there -- where the planes are, where the non-icon dots are, who's moving how fast -- but you ALSO think about whats likely to come. Edit... I remembered a great quote from Morpheus: "the only time you should look forward in a furball is when you pull the trigger." Remember that situations include your position relative to enemy aribases, how many friendlies are behind you to scare off enemies, what security zones you can escape to (like carriers, etc) should the need arise.
Fifth, dont think you need high level fancy pants ACM skills to do well. If you have SA, pay attention to how your spending your E, and know a few basic things like the Yoyo, the rope, the barrell roll, and the immelman -- you can rock in the MA. The energy part is important....while its tempting to scream down from 15k on a con, it's really bad to do. He has lots of time to spot you, and you'll be SO fast that even a little move will get him clear. I've heard some veteran players say that burning E and giving up alt easily are sure signs of Newbdom, adn I'd have to agree.
I'd be happy to fly with you some and help any way I can -- PM me here or look me up in MA. I have a feeling you'll do well in AH, especially if you keep appraoching things like you have here.
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Thanks guys! I realize ACM isn't what I need at times, but there are certian manuvers that DEFINATELY need to be done at specific times, it's all fluid and changing and ACM is just another package of fluid manuvers you can do. I'm learning SLOWLY compared to my last flight sim(Lock On:MAC) but I'll get there, I think part of it is that this community is SO skilled, and in the MA I don't know the people. Therefor Id on't know if it was my mistake, or just being completely out-skilled. I suspect its a bit of both! :) I am leaving at about 4:30pm for a conferance, but will return monday to fight!