Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Saintaw on January 18, 2001, 12:03:00 PM
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Heard some news here that Bush was wanting to (dunno how to spell this right!) "institute Genesism in Shool" ... (Read, Kids will be taught the "Adam and Eve" story instead of Scientific view that is taught today)...
This has to ba a troll ! U guys goin backwards in History ?
Saw
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Not true! He may of said he thinks they should but it will never happen.
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hell did he even pass science in grade school? it will never happen because the great majority of americans think it is wrong , just like his presidency
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Originally posted by -towd_:
hell did he even pass science in grade school? it will never happen because the great majority of americans think it is wrong , just like his presidency
Thank you for speaking on behalf of the "great majority of Americans" lol. I guess you just took a nationwide poll on this? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=view_photo&ID_Community=Raubspics&ID_Topic=2&ID_Message=30)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-18-2001).]
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no just the election returns bout 400,000 more for gore . that is why bush is called a unpopular president i.e. his fraudulency
the last rebublican president for the melenium he keeps up the moral majority toejame and ill be happy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) send that man a gram of coke you can buy it from his father (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Anyone in GB check out Panorama this week (may even be tonight). The episode is called "the accidental president". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) So far the adverts for it have all been classic Bush quotes like "more and more of our imports are coming from abroad" and my personal favorite "the budget is very complicated and full of numbers".
Swoop
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Originally posted by -towd_:
hell did he even pass science in grade school? it will never happen because the great majority of americans think it is wrong , just like his presidency
"Great majority"? Last time I checked he was trailing in popular vote by a fraction of a percent.
If you were interested in his grades and SAT scores, you could have checked the websites during the election - they had all the data on both candidates. While Bush'es SAT was slightly lower, his grades were same or higher then Gore's.
For someone who tries to sound condescending to the president of the USA you are way too ignorant.
As for scientifuc view and method, we do not want to use it for racial, sociological, ecological many other areas. We prefer to use wishfull thinking instead. And those we use to shape our future.
In view of that why would I care if some people think we were created from clay rather then evolved from monkeys? It's not like it's goind to change the past...
miko
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ok miko it goes like this if you believe one totaly silly story as absolute truth you probly follow they rest of the crapola that is part of the dogma . if you believe that dogma and are in a position of power you are gonna create huge problems because you are out of touch with reality. i.e. black people are cused by god cause their skin is black and many many more .
he endorses these views i believe the majority of americans do not mayby im wrong . but im not
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Originally posted by Swoop:
So far the adverts for it have all been classic Bush quotes like "more and more of our imports are coming from abroad"
Well, if you hear it as:
"more and more of our imports are coming from abroad" it sounds kind of stupid.
But if you hear it as:
"more and more of our imports are coming from abroad" - "our" sounds a bit redundant.
If you admit that a person usually speaks not as good as he writes (-towd_ a rare exception) and assume that he just used "our" there "the" would do fine:
"more and more of the imports are coming from abroad" - that sounds perfectly correct.
Especially if it is not a statement (as such is makes little sence even if correct) but a preface to some point:
"more and more of the imports are coming from abroad and that creates a dangerous trade disbalance and hurts domestic production" or whatever he actually said - that sounds perfectly reasonable.
If you want to hear really funny quotes used out of context check Lay Leno's "interviews" - he asks questions and then uses recorded statements. they are hilarious. Of course most people understand the joke...
miko
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Bah! How dare you question British journalism, miko? Best in the world! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) More sensational stories than anyone else... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Miko2d, Sorry, but I have to Stronly Dissagree with that ! Raising poeple with Religious belief INSTEAD of actual facts... Wow, that sounds like a big allarm bell in my Book.
Don't get me wrong, poeple can believe in what they want, it's their business not mine (yes, I am atheist, no I am not an "anty religion" type of guy.). but making it a NATIONAL law is something different...
Oh, and to Towd & familly, plz go highjack someone else's... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Saw
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 01-18-2001).]
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Originally posted by -towd_:
ok miko it goes like this if you believe one totaly silly story as absolute truth you probly follow they rest of the crapola that is part of the dogma . if you believe that dogma and are in a position of power you are gonna create huge problems because you are out of touch with reality. i.e. black people are cused by god cause their skin is black and many many more .
he endorses these views i believe the majority of americans do not mayby im wrong . but im not
I do not like it but that's religion for you. USA is a christian country and most population are christians of some kind and vote accordingly. At least we can leave the country if we do not like it. I know many christians and while I do no agree with their views, I know where I stand with them because their views are mostly consistent.
What about the (mostly liberal) atheist people who believe that despite evolving through different paths and having very different shape, form and biology, the races are somehow miraculously equall in intelligence and other capabilities? And build the policies around it which lead to discrimination?
Or forego the economic studies and force taxpayers' money to be spent on feel-good programs rather then on programs with most bang for the buck?
More men dies from prostate cancer then women from the breast cancer but do you see much campaigning for the former? No surprise that there is 12 times more money spent on BC research...
What about electric/clean cars that will use electricity/hydrogen produced by plants burning the same fossil fuels? Add huge toxic short-lived batteries and their manufacture, considerable electricity losses during transfer, construction expences (in fuel as well as materials) and you get worst pollution then ever. Of course nuclear power plants could provide clean energy, but nobody wants to live in the same country with them.
Come to think of it, those people are like you - just because they are "enlightened" by being non-religious, their ignorance and mental laziness is somehow miraculously cured and their opinion is unfallible. Everybody else is obviously an idiot, president included. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
miko
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towd,
Well, ya know, Bush wants to be known as the "education president". While I'm not a "frothing at the mouth" supporter, I will admit that he has done good work along those lines here in our great state during his governorship.
After reading your posts for a year and a half, I can only feel saddened that his term of office didn't come soon enough to do you any benefit.
Regards,
Wab
[This message has been edited by AKWabbit (edited 01-18-2001).]
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Originally posted by Saintaw:
Miko2d, Sorry, but I have to Stronly Dissagree with that ! Raising poeple with Religious belief INSTEAD of actual facts... Wow, that sounds like a big allarm bell in my Book.
You are not disagreeing with me, Saintaw. I am not advocating the matter, I am just stating the fact of it's existance. There are many more christian then nonchristian voters in this contry.
But I am not worried. Despite all the religion among people there is a strong separation betwen the State and the Church. Nobody will force other people to study a religion in public schools. Of course the Creation theory and religion in general are part of our history and should be studied as such.
I did not even discuss that point (education) in my posts - I just stated that being religious does not automatically make a person an idiot.
Thinking rathionally, things that for us are "religious beliefs", for christians those things are actuall facts or as close as to make no difference. We just have to deal with that rationally.
Expecting that a person would admit "I am a christion, so I am an idiot and my believes are wrong and irrational and I do not qualify to be a voter or a president" is naive.
I never said I liked it, but with strong constitutional guarantees I like it better then, say Soviet Union or other countries.
miko
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Saintaw,
For your information as a non-US resident, the US school system is much less orderly then, say, France or Russia.
We have school districts (where schools are paid for mostly by property taxes), states on top of that, then federal level.
Every school district or every school decides what and how to teach. On top of that the students select the subjects they like.
While that poses a real problem because many do not select hard subjects like math, physics, etc., there is no way for the federal government to make the schools teach anything.
They may introduce standardised test like SAT or a law to forbid something (like display of religious objects on federal property) by making a corresponding law. But what does a president have to do with it? laws are written by Congress. A president can sometimes veto a bill, but not make a law.
Schools are state or local property. Of couse they may be receiving federal grants that come with some conditions.
Of course a president can speak about something or call for something, but he is only acting as a public relation person - no real power, just words.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 01-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 01-18-2001).]
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Heh ALL imports come from abroad, miko. that's the point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Show me an import that does not come from some place outside the country?
It's akin to saying "most things we export out of this country are produced in this country". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
SAW, we're not atheists. We're merely "Spiritually self reliant" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Heh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
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Darwins way: probabal, makes sense.
Genesis: Far fetched to say the least, wishful.
I believe in god and all but I believe in evolution aswell, i dont believe in 1 or the other totally but think that somehow they mesh together. However until there is CONCLUSIVE proff of that I would rather my kids (if had any) be taught evolution. It actually makes sense.
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no use argueing with you. but texas has a horrible school system . and the usa is not a christain country . the vatican is a christain country . we have freedom of religion with no preference supposedly (christians keep trying to insert their dogma in every thing they can ) the church was kept out of government for a reason . so no its not a cristian country. thanks be to god
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Originally posted by Swoop:
Anyone in GB check out Panorama this week (may even be tonight). The episode is called "the accidental president". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) So far the adverts for it have all been classic Bush quotes like "more and more of our imports are coming from abroad" and my personal favorite "the budget is very complicated and full of numbers".
Swoop
Well hell Swoop it is complicated and full of numbers. What's the average Joe going to do with all that mumbo jumbo. Do you think Ma and Pa Kettle will read it. LOL! As a US citizen I'm sick of importing my imports from some damn foreign country. We should import from right here in the good old USA! I want an import that was made with good old American know how.
I hadn't heard those Swoop. That's classic.
Don't get me wrong I love my country. It's that some of the things are presidents have said make me wonder just how much of a puppet they really are.
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I agree towd, there are no 2 things than should be kept farther apart than religion and education. Seeing as how the us doesent had any "official" religion and is so diverse there should be ANY religion of ANY kind in public schools, the public is not any certin religion thus neither should public schools. In HS i want to Saint Josephs High here in victoria for 2 years than then athe the public school Victoria for 2. IMO there was MORE religious teaching in science at the public as opposed to the private, that really struck me strange.
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While we do have separation of church and state, here are a few phrases that might sound familiar.
"One nation under God"
"In God we trust"
"....and nothing but the truth so help you God"
I know there are more, but you get the point. We are not a religious state, but religion is a big part of our country.
p.s. the Vatican Nation isn't "cristain", its Roman Catholic. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(edit) Just to make it clear, I do not advocate teaching Genesis in schools. The facts should be taught in school. The fact is evolution occurred. There "may" have been a Genesis-like event, but it is certainly not proven.
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-18-2001).]
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Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
While we do have separation of church and state, here are a few phrases that might sound familiar.
"One nation under God"
"In God we trust"
"....and nothing but the truth so help you God"
Many of these phrases were added to the public record as recently as the 1950's in knee-jerk responses to the Red Scare. After all, what God-fearing American (who says as much in the Pledge of Allegiance) could possibly be a Commie?
The first appearance of ANY reference to God in American currency came during the Civil War, and NO paper money featured the phrase "In God We Trust" until 1957.
The line "One Nation Under God" didn't appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954.
So anyway, context is useful here. I'm not denying that America is a religious country, but I also don't want this discussion to center around public phrases that are about as far removed from the founding fathers as we are.
-- Todd/DMF
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Thank you Miko2d for making it clearer, these are times where I wish that my "English" was better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (Both in reading and expressing myself)
<S!>
Saw
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(Read, Kids will be taught the "Adam and Eve" story instead of Scientific view that is taught today
What fascinates me is that people think one of these is more/less accurate than the other. Scientific views.. that cracks me up. Scientific assumptions that haven't been disproven yet might be a tad more accurate.
The truth of the matter is.. well matter. It can neither be created nor destroyed... basic law of science. Where did it originally come from? Science has more questions than answers.
The sad thing is when either view is presented as fact. I'd rather see both presented for the ideological explanations they are.
Pure arrogance is the assumption that someone can figure out how the universe was created based on the relatively primitive means available to us today. I almost prefer the Bible's explanation for that very reason.
AKDejaVu
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I have trouble seeing the bible as anything more than a really good strangley written book that teaches many good things, the bible itself says not to take it literally, it is written so much like they wanted to convey ideology with the use of metaphores and analogy, not as a documentry. however those that believe it rained fish will continue to believe it rained fish. it is likley that noone will ever know unless they die (and thats a big maby) evolution is a fact, it actually happens, it has been observed, we see it every day in insects and mammals and bacteria. The creation story exists in one book along with alot of other odd and questionable stories of which 99% have nothing resembling proof to back them up in any way, not a hard decision for me to figure out which is more likley to be true. I dont really care what people believe, as long as they dont try to push it on me, worship your lawn mower for all I care, but keep it outta my yard (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Deja, you GOT to be kidding.
You're saying that the bible story, the creation myth of Asatru,[insert religious mumbo jumbo here] is as well supported as the theory of evolution?
You mistake the self correcting mechanisms in science for a weakness when it's a strength. If it's wring, it'll correct itself. Since Darwin, the theory of evolution has had fixex, patches - but not anyone messing directly with the kernel so to speak. It's more well supported than many other scientific theories, but because religion intrudes into its domain, it becomes unacceptable for the hardheaded theists.
Answering question gives rise to questions - that much is certain. But if we limited this discussion to evolution for starters we'd be on the right path.
Abiogenesis, i.e the theory about how life originated, is not evolution. Evolution is simply put change in allele frequency over time. To the basic layman, allele's are these nifty thingies found in our DNA. These changes either prove benefitial or (more often) either doesn't change much or make the situation worse. Through natural selection we get a situation like the one we have today.
Unlike religion, science does not have the answers to start with. In the beginning, there's nothing. Then there is a hypothesis, a general falsifiable suggestion that can be examined. Well, this is generally speaking, nuclear physics has lately become more and more mathematical. At any rate, since the hypothesis is falsifiable, it can be disproved and tested.
That's where we are with evolution today. Microevolution *is* a fact - biologists studying bacteria have been able to notice change in allele frequency over time. it's doable because of the very short life cycle of bacteria. Macroevolution is what we all really associate with evolution - here comes differentiation and all kinds of neato stuff.
What alternatives do we have that are based on a wish to know, and not preconceived answers? None. We have various creation myth, the most prevalent in the western world is that this dude took a male and a female of eahc species, put them on a boat and then repopulated the earth. This is silly for many reasons; such a limited gene pool would very rapildy lead to inbreeding and the species would not be able to continue on ebyond a few generations. Even worse, it suggests that all species that have existed and does exist have existed since the beginning of time. This places humans next to dinosaurs and so forth. Even worse for the theists, it can be disproved even by a layman.
Let's focus this discussion on evolution. Claiming it is unsubstianted is like claiming our knowledge of aerodynamics is next to useless. Like it or not, evolution is a fact and a theory and applied science based on it can save lives.
Praying can't.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 01-19-2001).]
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Being a programmer of sorts myself, and having a wife who's statistician in Biogenetics makes us quite tending to the "Logic side" of things (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
As I said, I do not mind anyone having any beiefs he wants for him or his children, I was only affraid that this would have been "mandatory". Miko now explained clearly how "subjects" are chosen in Schools in the US, as opposed to here in Europe where most of the subjcts you study are "Standards" (AFAIK, we all had a minimum of 26 hours / week of Math,Phisycs, Biology, Geography, History... whatever "branch" you pick in your Studies. )
Also, here, there are seperate Shool systems :
-State School (Laic schools)
-Catholic Schools (Funded by Catholic Church) where you have the choice wether your kidd will attend to "religious
-classes" or not.
Private Schools = $$$
Imagine the effect of a statement (like the one in my Original post) would have here in Europe ! It would mean that all types of education would have to get the religious one as well (no choice left).
This was exactly what dreaded me ()hope I made myself clear this time <g>
Saw
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
I have trouble seeing the bible as anything more than a really good strangley written book that teaches many good things, the bible itself says not to take it literally, it is written so much like they wanted to convey ideology with the use of metaphores and analogy, not as a documentry. however those that believe it rained fish will continue to believe it rained fish. it is likley that noone will ever know unless they die (and thats a big maby) evolution is a fact, it actually happens, it has been observed, we see it every day in insects and mammals and bacteria. The creation story exists in one book along with alot of other odd and questionable stories of which 99% have nothing resembling proof to back them up in any way, not a hard decision for me to figure out which is more likley to be true. I dont really care what people believe, as long as they dont try to push it on me, worship your lawn mower for all I care, but keep it outta my yard (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Amen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I really do not understand why religion and Evolution do not fit together.
If anybody believes in God as creator of all things ,then logically he is the Creator of Nature and their for also the creator of Evolution.
To a certain degree Religion lives of the ignorance of Man because everything we can not explain we explain with God. Or in other words the UNKNOWN is God in our Heads. That’s were Science Jumps in to calm our fear, so everything we can understand seems less frightening to us.
I am saying seems because everything we can explain Scientifically we have the self illusion that we understand it, but in reality we can not understand anything!
We can explain Evolution we can explain Thunder but can Man explain me why all this was created in the first place and of what use it all is. Believe me no living thing can ever answer this question.
Religion is something that is to deep in our heads, that anyone can explain it with Science.
Might sound silly but for sure it counts for all People, We do not differ to our Ancestors thousands of years ago , because we are all still frightened be a Storm.
[This message has been edited by ICEWIND (edited 01-19-2001).]
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Originally posted by Saintaw:
Miko now explained clearly how "subjects" are chosen in Schools in the US, as opposed to here in Europe where most of the subjcts you study are "Standards" (AFAIK, we all had a minimum of 26 hours / week of Math,Phisycs, Biology, Geography, History... whatever "branch" you pick in your Studies. )
Also, here, there are seperate Shool systems :
-State School (Laic schools)
-Catholic Schools (Funded by Catholic Church) where you have the choice wether your kidd will attend to "religious
-classes" or not.
Private Schools = $$$
Imagine the effect of a statement (like the one in my Original post) would have here in Europe ! It would mean that all types of education would have to get the religious one as well (no choice left).
This was exactly what dreaded me ()hope I made myself clear this time <g>
Saw
The system really isn't that different in the US. There are mandatory hours of reading, writing, and arithmetic. And there are pubic, private, and religious schools. The problem in the US is the over lapping of states rights and freedom of speech onto the school system. Public schools 'generally' stay out of the religious realm. It varies greatly from state to state and county to county. This is the age old problem in the US. How far do we go in controlling the states and local governments in the education system. I think it's easy. The Constitution clearly separates church and state. It clearly gives you the right to complain about it. Until the complainers change the constitution all they can and should be able to do is complain. I don't think the Constitution should be changed. The point is public tax money is being spent on the public school system. Everyone forgets that public school in the US were set up and are similar to a charity. If you don't want to spend money on your local school in the form of property taxes your making the choice not to educate your neighborhood children. The system was set up because a majority of the people in the community believed all children had the right to be literate. They would go to church on Sunday to get there Bible studies. Now days there seems to be a lot of people that don't want to get off their butt and take their kid to church on Sunday. The game is on during church I guess. So they blame the school system for their lack of motivation. Don't expect the school system to do anything you wont do yourself. They can teach all of the creation they want in school but if you've instilled the values you believe in in your children they will make their choice based on your advise. The fact is you have the freedom in the US to take your children to the religious organization of your choice after school. Let the school do it's primary task making your children literate. YOU get off YOUR butt and make them good upstanding moral citizens. The fact that the founding fathers believed in God is clear. The fact that they believed that you should have the right not to believe is also clear. In the Bible God gave Adam and Eve the freedom of choice. Adam and Eve made some poor choices and paid the consequences. But God let them make those choices. It's called learning and taking responsibility for your actions. How could God be a benevolent God if he didn't allow you to choose?
If all of the above gives you an impression of me I will just about bet it is the wrong one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) You will have to read between the lines very carefully to tell what is behind the above statement. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-19-2001).]
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That's good news Jimdandy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S!>
Saw
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Originally posted by Saintaw:
That's good news Jimdandy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S!>
Saw
It would be great news if they would just get off the whole religion in schools thing and get on with education of your kids.
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Since i was able to experiance both school systems first hard, let me throw in my 2 cents...
In europe - you didn't get much room to slack. If you failed ANY subject ( and those were chosen for you ) you had to repeat WHOLE YEAR. This provided motivation nessesary to keep on going.
I was a relatively poor student in europe, since my interest in women and basketball was much grater then any other (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In US, I was able to choose my own classes - only problem occured when i had to choose math class and it turned out that I've done best they had to offer two years earlier (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
( this is a RESPECTABLE SUBURB HS in Connecticut )
Overall, i was able to graduate High school in US ( attended only senior year ) with good grades ( mostly Bs ) although i only knew maybe 20 english words total (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In US teachers are expected to bend over backwards to help even the dumbest and most unwilling students, this slows down everyone. I still see this pathetic trait in college.
Overall, US system is failing because of its liberal approach ( and i'm a democrat !!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ). Children are not interested in learning in general and cannot be allowed to choose their own subjects. The "freedom and responsibility" is given too early and never checked. Classes crawl since "everyone" has to be taken care off, and there are NO pusnishments for failing. Everything is wonderful, everything is good, except for the fact that 10% of graduates never read a book in their lives and are functionally illiterate.
Scarry thing is that my home country has a horrible habit of blandly following US example - they are now considering educational reform....
Just a thought makes me shiver..
Sorry for the incoherent rant... too early in the morning (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
[This message has been edited by fd ski (edited 01-19-2001).]
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Heheh Fd-sky, I was lucky enough to spend a few years in Asia when i was a Kid, and spent 2 years in a Japanese school ... ANY school system is easy compared to that one... closest experience I had after that was when i enlistd 15 years after (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Saw
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Originally posted by fd ski:
Since i was able to experiance both school systems first hard, let me throw in my 2 cents...
In europe - you didn't get much room to slack. If you failed ANY subject ( and those were chosen for you ) you had to repeat WHOLE YEAR. This provided motivation nessesary to keep on going.
I was a relatively poor student in europe, since my interest in women and basketball was much grater then any other (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In US, I was able to choose my own classes - only problem occured when i had to choose math class and it turned out that I've done best they had to offer two years earlier (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
( this is a RESPECTABLE SUBURB HS in Connecticut )
Overall, i was able to graduate High school in US ( attended only senior year ) with good grades ( mostly Bs ) although i only knew maybe 20 english words total (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In US teachers are expected to bend over backwards to help even the dumbest and most unwilling students, this slows down everyone. I still see this pathetic trait in college.
Overall, US system is failing because of its liberal approach ( and i'm a democrat !!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ). Children are not interested in learning in general and cannot be allowed to choose their own subjects. The "freedom and responsibility" is given too early and never checked. Classes crawl since "everyone" has to be taken care off, and there are NO pusnishments for failing. Everything is wonderful, everything is good, except for the fact that 10% of graduates never read a book in their lives and are functionally illiterate.
Scarry thing is that my home country has a horrible habit of blandly following US example - they are now considering educational reform....
Just a thought makes me shiver..
Sorry for the incoherent rant... too early in the morning (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Man I agree 10000%! I've seen some of my Grandfathers grade school books. Not High School, not Middle School, but grade school books. They were starting into algebra in the fifth grade! My mothers books were similar! My mom had to take a word origin or a Latin class before she could graduate from high school! I didn't even have to do that in college! That was in a town of about 1500 people! What the hell has happend since then. I can tell you that my grade school and junior high school education was ok. High school was a joke. It got worse as my brother went through 7 years later. The problem is we have saddled these teachers with duties beyond what they can perform and still teach or they have decided in some cases to add some of their own idealistic crap to the system and waste kids valuable time. 1st teach them to read, right, and do math up thru algebra. Then all of the other happy bull can be thrown in. On top of that the good teachers can't discipline at all in school. ON TOP OF THAT the damn parents don't want them disciplined. Tell me how a teacher is going to control a class room with out the ability to enforce discipline. When I was in grade school the principal and the teachers could spank you. I really think it was needed. Of course someone can go over board. Then they should be punished. I wouldn't be surprised the next trend we see in school violence is the teachers coming in with guns and blowing away students. The nut case that has finally had enough of trying all damn day long to get them to listen but has no control really over weather they do or not. The day before he had a parent teacher conference with little 13 year old Johnny's parents about his totally disrupting the class room and how he had to send him out of class. The parents freak because Johnny was embarrassed in front of all his friends and now there going to sue!!! On top of that she's teaching with 20 year old books because Johnny's parents didn't want their property taxes raised! It's insanity! But until a kid can read and right way the hell are we wasting are time teaching a 3rd grader about alterative family. They can't even spell family because the teacher has been not only saddled with the burden of trying to do there job but trying to be a social worker, mother and father, nutritionist...! I've talked to some grade school teachers. They tell me what they spend a large portion of the day doing is parenting. Many of these kids cry when they have to go home because they has such a vacuum for a home. They don't get bathed, feed or paid any attention to other than to be told to shut up and thrown in front of the TV. Then the general public wants to know why the school is failing. It's because of YOU. Your failing out there as parents. You throw the kid to the teacher for 8 hrs and expect them to raise them. Don't get me wrong. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular on this page. It's everyone's fault in the US for letting it get this way. "Oh my god honey they want to raise property taxes for the school. Damn it lets go vote that down!" God forbid we should have to pay for books and teachers. Give me a voucher that will fix it. LOL!!!!!!!!!! It's you that helped put the school system in this mess. You'll be the same guy that screws up the voucher system. We had excellent public schools in the US at one time. What the hell did we do to it. It's our own fault for not realizing that it is the first and foremost priority is to get these kids literate! The school can't be everything for everyone but it can be an institution of learning.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-19-2001).]
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One word ... VOUCHERS!
Let the parents use the money where they see fit. Public Ed has become so political it's not even funny.
(Catholic school - K - 8)
Eagler
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Jimdandy
100% agreed. It's not a monopoly of the American Education System tho. I think is a general trend. I Spain we have that very same problem, maybe not that hard. The real truth is that both teachers are unable to enforce discipline, plus the contents themselves seem to be less and less a learning concern.
We will end having a wonderful generation of socially integrated, evolved, mature, self conscienced (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) ....functional illiterates that won't make 2+2 without a pocket calculator, but will be able to fire a machine gun against their teachers & fellow students.
Cheers,
Pepe.
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You're saying that the bible story, the creation myth of Asatru,[insert religious mumbo jumbo here] is as well supported as the theory of evolution?
Oh.. ok.. evolution...
I thought we were talking about creation of the universe, not how it evolved.
Just what did it evolve from? Originally? And where did that original source for life today come from?
AKDejaVu
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LOL! I had a long drawn-out followup to this one and HTC crashed as I submitted it. I'll take it as a sign.
Let me say this though:
Arguing the invalidity of the ark based on the ammount of animals and so forth while supporting any idea that all life came from a single cell is somewhat contradictory.
I have not met a Christian that didn't believe in evolution in some form. I've met too many people that refuse to believe anything in the bible in any form.
Both seem to be more based on man's desire to know what happened to start it all, rather than what really did happen. Is one more plausible than the other? Maybe.. but it doesn't make it any more true. The truth of the matter is that there was some kind of incredible thing that happened to start the universe. Something that modern science can in no way explain.. even come close to explaining. Once you accept that, you start to accept that there is more to it than what can be proven by science.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Pepino:
Jimdandy
100% agreed. It's not a monopoly of the American Education System tho. I think is a general trend. I Spain we have that very same problem, maybe not that hard. The real truth is that both teachers are unable to enforce discipline, plus the contents themselves seem to be less and less a learning concern.
We will end having a wonderful generation of socially integrated, evolved, mature, self conscienced (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) ....functional illiterates that won't make 2+2 without a pocket calculator, but will be able to fire a machine gun against their teachers & fellow students.
Cheers,
Pepe.
Thx for the input. I didn't realize it was a trend any place but the US. Sounds like we all better beef up that savings account. The next generation can't support us because they can't read. Interesting thanks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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its not that the curriclum is bad or anything else, its just that the country has forgotten that some people just dont and are not going to get it, they hold back classes for kids that (to be politically incorrect) are just dumb, they are makeing it to where the class will only progress at the learning curve of its slowest student, plus there are those parents who insist that the vegetable child should be in normal classes even though all he does is hit things and drool and that too causes problems. Smart people move on the dummies....the dummies will always have waterburger..I know thats harsh but such is life, many people dont want to admit that some people just cant hack it so they try to put everyone on the same plane, and of couse that plane is inevetabley going to be a lower end standard to accomadate the mental midgits. sorry for being so crass, but this country needs a sock in the gut sometimes.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-19-2001).]
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the dummies will always have waterburger
OK.. I give up... wtf is waterburger?
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I'll assume he's referring to Whataburger, it's Texas' version of McDonalds.
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yup thats right, damn ive heard it called "waterburger" so many times I actually typed it that way, lol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
its kinda like McDonalds, accept its food will give you the toejams AND make ya fat McDonalds just makes ya fat.
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whataburger is alot better than micky ds if only for the reason they are open 24 hours a day and you can get jalopanos on just about ever thing on the menu .
dont mess with Whataburger
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LOL towd ya got me there, nothing like a breakfast on a bun at 2:30am on tuesday (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
maby its just the victoria wataburgers that carry some kinda of waterborn colon distabalizing agent and not them all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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What about Ash (Ask) and Elm (Embla).... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The Creation
This story can be found in the Prose Edda. Parts are also located in the Poetic Edda in Voluspá and Grímnismál.
In the beginning there was no earth or heaven, no sand nor see nor cooling waves. There was only Ginnungagap, a great void. In the north there was Nilfheim, and from Nilfheim's spring flowed eleven rivers, known as Elivagar. As the rivers flowed south, they cooled and hardened into ice. In the south, there was the world of Muspelheim, a firey world. The northern part of Ginnungagap became filled with the ice and hoar frost from the Elivagar. When that ice formed and was firm, a drizzling rain arose from the venomous rivers and poured over the ice where it cooled into rime, and one layer of ice formed on top of the other throughout Ginnungagap. The southern part of Ginnungagap was lit by the sparks and glowing embers which flew out of Muspelheim. Where the heat from the south met the coolness in the north the ice was thawed and it began to drip and by the might that sent the heat, life appeared in the drops of the running fluid and this fluid formed into the likeness of a man. He was given the name Ymir.
As the frost continued to thaw another form was created. This form became a cow called Audhumbla. From her teats flowed four rivers of milk and it was upon this that Ymir was fed. While he fed, Ymir slept, and while he slept a male and female frost giant grew from his armpits and one leg fathered a six headed troll with the other leg.
Audhumbla lived by licking the ice-blocks which were salty, and by the evening of the first day there appeared a man's hair where she licked. On the second day, a man's head appeared, and by the third day the whole man was freed from the ice. This man was called Buri. He had a son name Bor who married Bestla, who was the daughter of the giant Bolthurn. Bor and Bestla had three sons, Odhinn, Vili, and Ve.
There was great strife between the offspring of Ymir and the children of Bor and Bestla. Odhinn led his brothers against Ymir and they killed him. Ever since that time there has been hatred and enemity between the gods and the giants.
Odhinn and his brothers dragged Ymir's body into the void. His flesh became the earth, his blood the sea. His bones became the mountains, his hair the trees, and his teeth the stones. Odhinn and his brothers discovered maggots living in what had been Ymir's flesh. They turned these into the dwarves and dark elves and these beings reside in the depths of the earth, mining the ore and minerals beneath the mountains and hills. The world of the dwarves is known as Nidavellir and the world of the dark elves is called Svartalfheim. Odhinn and his brothers also discovered some fine creatures living in the soil formed from Ymir's flesh. They named these creatures light elves and placed them in the world known as Alfheim. As Ymir's blood flowed, it created a flood that killed all the giants, save one. Bergelmir escaped with his household and they made their escape in the first boat, a hollowed out tree-trunk.
The sons of Bor then took Ymir's skull and fashioned from it the sky and set it over the earth. Under each corner they placed a dwarf and it is from the names of these dwarves that we get the directions, North, South, East and West. The sons of Bor then took the sparks and burning embers that were flying about and cast them into the midst of Ginnungagap to light the heavens and the earth. They gave stations to all the stars and planets.
They then fashioned a world for the families of giants and this world is known as Jotunheim. Away from this land they fashioned a stronghold to surround the world, to defend it from the giants. This land was fashioned from Ymir's eyebrows, and it is called Midgard. They then took the brains of Ymir and cast them into the air and these became the storm-threatening clouds.
One day while Odhinn and his brothers were walking along the sea shore they came upon two tree trunks. The gods saw great beauty in the trunks and set forth to bring them to life. Odhinn gave them soul, Vili gave motion and sense, and Ve gave being and blooming hue. These beings were the first humans and they were called Ask and Embla. Midgard was given to them to inhabit.
Once the world had been created and the gods had placed the sun and moon in the sky they made night and day. Night is a beautiful giantess with a dark complexion and hair of midnight black. Night's first husband was a man called Naglifari. Their son is called Aud. Next, Night married Annar and their daughter is called Earth. Last she married Delling and their son was Day. Odhinn then took Night and Day and gave them horses and chariots to ride across the heavens.
The sun and moon are guided across the heavens by the children of Mundilfari. They were so fair and beautiful that he called the son, Moon, and the daughter, Sun. The gods became angry at his arrogance and took the brother and sister and put them in the sky where they draw the sun and moon across the sky in chariots. They made Sun drive the horses which drew the chariot of the sun that the gods had made to light the worlds from a spark which had flown from Muspelheim. The horses which draw this chariot are called Arvak and Alsvidh. Moon is made to guide the chariot that draws the moon across the sky. This chariot is drawn by Aldsvider. Sun and Moon can never pause in their journey because they are constantly pursued by the wolves Skoll and Hati.
Now that the earth was made and had been filled with all manner of beings the gods created a home for themselves. The gods then built for themselves a stronghold in the middle of the world and it is known as Asgard. They built a bridge to connect Asgard and Midgard, and this bridge is Bifrost. Asgard is sheltered by the great world tree, Yggdrasil, which touches upon all of the worlds.
Sure is more interesting then Adam and Eve.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(edit) Whoops sorry this aint state approved...
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Pray not for an end to the slaughter...but for VICTORY!!!
[This message has been edited by Wotan (edited 01-19-2001).]
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Yes, a nice story, the sad fact is that there are people who believe that childen should be taught that THAT is where people came from in public schools.
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Pluse get this, if you want to teach "adam and eve" you must tell all children that homosexuals are wrong for what they are doing, and that it isnt natural (which its not) and that they are all evil, however we all know how much this country loves protecting its queers so maby the curriculum will be called
"Adam and Eve/Steve"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-19-2001).]
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Wobble:
flying at Mach2 30 000 feet above the earth is not natural. It's not immoral either.
Who cares what other people do in bed?
Just love the Natural Law fallacy argument though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Spent a whole night in #philosophy on the undernet opping with that as a topic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
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exactly my point StSanta
double standard delemma.
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This is all so heavy man. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Jim,
that reminds me a this radio commercial
<guys voice> "remember that time at that guys house when we got really high on that stuff from that guy?, I was thinking about that while this song was playing and Im looking at my cat...and wow.....im like crying, and i just wanted to tell you"
<girl> sorry I had you on hold, what were you saying.
(commercial was something about marajuana)
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Oh shoot, thought it was a commercial for cheap long distance.
Personally, I want more of our exports to go to offshore countries from now on.
And as far as the schools, a large part of it has to do with the parents, and what they expect out of their child, and what the child wants to do.
For some reason, I seem to have relatively intelligent children. I know that Eagler would find this quite confusing, but it's true! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
On a serious note, I have noticed that my sixteen year old daughter is given an incredible amount of honors and advanced placement courses as options during her semesters, and even courses that can be taken over the summer from the local university.
I remember having honors classes in high school, but not nearly the number available to students in her school now, and it really seems to be decided by the grades the children get, and their desire to push themselves more.
Of course there are a lot of kids that don't, but at least I see SOME kind of options open to the ones that do, and it seems like there are more now than when I was her age.
Hey, is Will Farrell going to be at the inauguration?
Mk
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Originally posted by Mk10 225th:
For some reason, I seem to have relatively intelligent children. I know that Eagler would find this quite confusing, but it's true! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mk
Mk
I believe it, doesn't intelligence skip a generation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
jj
GoRavens !!
Eagler
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LOL eagler, so does baldness it seems (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch
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Here's the frustration-
however those that believe it rained fish will continue to believe it rained fish. it is likley that noone will ever know unless they die (and thats a big maby) evolution is a fact, it actually happens, it has been observed, we see it every day in insects and mammals and bacteria.
That's TheWobble's from higher up. Here's my bone of contention: Lets get the "facts" straight, starting with what we mean by "fact". There's a whole other argument in there.
Re- evolution, I challenge anyone to provide direct evidence of evolution in terms of one species evolving into an entirely other species (I'd be a fool, on the other hand, to issue any such challenge for natural selection as a process). This is what it comes down to, for you who have evolution stuck in the craw... stop referring to it as a fact and recognize you're appealing to a theory which is based on the fact of natural selection.
Re- religion, I'm all for religious education, if only to help foster understanding between different groups. It sure makes things easier when everyone's working from the same basic knowledge. The long and the short is, teaching religious ed in schools not gonna create a nation of zealots... that's work accomplished best in the home.
*S* and regards,
Jay.
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Saw, reading through all this drivel it does not appear anyone answered your original question.
The answer is no. Likely a rumor started by someone trying to stir anti-moral majority backlash.
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Thank you Fatty.
Saw