Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hawklore on January 29, 2006, 09:02:33 AM
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Anyone in the area have news on this? Biased or not?
I'm having a hard time siding with Russia, and a hard time siding with Chechen Rebels.
Granted they are terroists now, but they weren't at first, is it possilbe that Russia created the terroistic attitude of the Chechens?
Boroda, ( And others. ) I'd love to have your opinion as a Russian citizen.
Peace talks were supposedly attempted, and as the Chechen rebel leaders came out to talk, they were shot.
48min video I'm relating to, that I watched all the way through.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9099034601896343271&q=chechnya
Is it Biased at all?
(Certain parts are in Russian/Chechen and english with a signlanguage interpretor)
I intend for this to be un-eventful and a true discussion, not a fishing or anything.
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what makes you thin either of them wants you to side with them?
if you do choose you gunna go and pick up a kalashnikov and blast the bad guys?
if you choose russia you get vodka for free, or chechens you get to terrorise school kids. hmmmmm
i'll sit on the fence and thank god it 600 miles away.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
what makes you thin either of them wants you to side with them?
if you do choose you gunna go and pick up a kalashnikov and blast the bad guys?
if you choose russia you get vodka for free, or chechens you get to terrorise school kids. hmmmmm
i'll sit on the fence and thank god it 600 miles away.
It's not 600 miles away.
It's in our backyard, alot of the Chechen rebels now train with the Islamic Extremeists and share information with them, it is directly related with the war on terroism.
Anyways, I'd pick up a PKM not a Kalashnikov...
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anyone that decides to kill a load of school children with nailbombs etc. no matter what their 'justification' for it, do not deserve to be negotiated with. they deserve to be hunted down and murdered one by one.
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Originally posted by Hawklore
It's not 600 miles away.
It's in our backyard, alot of the Chechen rebels now train with the Islamic Extremeists and share information with them, it is directly related with the war on terroism.
Anyways, I'd pick up a PKM not a Kalashnikov...
its 600 miles away for me, possibly further if i check the map.
if its in your back yard get your president to send more young soldiers to die. you gunna sign up?
niether side is pissed off with me, yet.......
maybe if they are one day, ill change my mind.
I'm sick to death with all these poxy wars, lets all just put the people who think war and death and nooks are cool on one side of the world, and the rest on the other.
when its all over in 2000 years we might have more space and housing prices might drop a little.
the way i see it, if there is a huge war, britain will be nooked off the globe in 5 minutes, and there aint no where for me to go.
i rekon ill just sit there and watch the atomic cloud coming and see if i can inhale a whole ciggy at once as it vaporises just before i do.
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Originally posted by Furball
anyone that decides to kill a load of school children with nailbombs etc. no matter what their 'justification' for it, do not deserve to be negotiated with. they deserve to be hunted down and murdered one by one.
Would same apply if they would use aerial bombings and heavy artillery?
(http://www.hro.org/editions/karta/nr22-23/foto/grozny.jpg)
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
if its in your back yard get your president to send more young soldiers to die. you gunna sign up?
Most anyone who enllists is well prepared to go anywhere the Commander in Cheif tells them. Its the President they may not agree with politically. But its a job, they may not like doing it, but they will.
On a side note, Russia dosnt exist. its a figment of our imagination.
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sounds fair Blue, but i still think this 'war' is never gunna end untill one side is totaly dead. why would you want more young brave Americans to fight there?
no disrespect was intended to your armed forces, i still think bush is a monkey though.
Tony Blair is worse, dont think im so blind not to see.
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I didnt see any disrespect in your post. Most Americans I see will and do support our troops to no end. We may not support the president politically but its up to us to support our troops. In this day and age we need to support our troops when all the media shows is the negitive side. Never showing how much they do help. Our troops are the workhorse that is kept out of sight when company is over.I also agree with you that this "war" will never end, unless an example is made of those who harbor terrorists. The less homes terrorists have the better. Its only the beginning. No war is good looking, but as an example it didnt look all that bright for the Allies in WWII. Took a long time to see the end of the Axis. This "war" is on a larger and alot more difficult level to fight, the bright days have not yet come, but give it time.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
sounds fair Blue, but i still think this 'war' is never gunna end untill one side is totaly dead. why would you want more young brave Americans to fight there?
no disrespect was intended to your armed forces, i still think bush is a monkey though.
Tony Blair is worse, dont think im so blind not to see.
First off,
American Soldiers are not fighting in Chechnyea that I know of..
The Russians use artillery, aerial bombings, rockets, modern technology that the Chechens do not have, so what do they do? Do what everyone else who was at a technological disadvantage does, go guerilla tactics, just like the liberty fighters did during the American War for Independence.
The french did the same thing during WWII, but are they being critcized for using what ever they could get their hands on? No, their laughed at the majority of the time..
Every war I can think of there was someone at a technological disadvantage and used terroistic/guerilla tactics to over come that..
Calling the Chechens terroists is like calling the Minutemen and Freedom Fighters of the american revolution terroists.
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Originally posted by Hawklore
It's not 600 miles away.
It's in our backyard, alot of the Chechen rebels now train with the Islamic Extremeists and share information with them, it is directly related with the war on terroism.
Originally posted by Hawklore
Calling the Chechens terroists is like calling the Minutemen and Freedom Fighters of the american revolution terroists.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...... . :huh
I smell self pwnage
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Taking a schoolhouse full of children hostage in a planned action is not guerilla warfare, it is terrorism. Form your distinction between the two based on that.
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Did you know that in Beslan the civillians took law in their own hands and attacked the chechens when the government was too scared to do anything?
I saw a document about it recently and it was .. oh well, business as usual in Russia.
The whole conflict is a gigantic clustered **** which nobody should touch with a 10-foot pole. Both sides are dirty as hell and guilty of attrocities of historical scale.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
sounds fair Blue, but i still think this 'war' is never gunna end untill one side is totaly dead. why would you want more young brave Americans to fight there?
Not trying to create any hostility. I just want clarification.
By the statement quoted above, are you referring to the Chechen / Russian conflict or the one in Iraq / Afghanistan?
If you are infact referring to the latter, just who DO you want to be the victor given the condition for victory you specify in the post?
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Did you know that in Beslan the civillians took law in their own hands and attacked the chechens when the government was too scared to do anything?
I saw a document about it recently and it was .. oh well, business as usual in Russia.
The whole conflict is a gigantic clustered **** which nobody should touch with a 10-foot pole. Both sides are dirty as hell and guilty of attrocities of historical scale.
Taking kids hostage/ or their lives is terroism, or atleast brutality/genocide what ever you want to call it. Terroism is a very very broad term and can cover anything that involves terror.
Using nail bombs is not terroism, it's improvation, what you have, and the most lethal... Now using them against children is terroism, now had they used it against the SpetzNaz as they entered the school, thats simply killing the enemy in an old fashioned booby trap style.
It is just a giant cluster F(_)CK, and both parties are guilty, but who is fighting for what is right and who is fighting just to fight?
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I personally blame Chuck Norris for the whole mess.
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Originally posted by Furball
anyone that decides to kill a load of school children with nailbombs etc. no matter what their 'justification' for it, do not deserve to be negotiated with. they deserve to be hunted down and murdered one by one.
American bombs kill schoolchildren. This is what they call 'war'.
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Hawklore, why are you asking? I see that you already have the answer, and just want to share your point of view with everybody. It is flame bait, nothing else.
How you see Chechen war, or Iraq war, or any war on this planet depends only on your belief. It is the question of your faireness.
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Without reading your whole post and replies, just what comes into my mind, that, AFAIK, isn't well-known by Western people.
1) In 1991-1994 about 500,000 non-Chechen population fled Chechnya because of what in Western nespeak is called "ethnic cleansings". Not belonging to Chechen prehistoric clans and not owning a machinegun was a reason enough to be robbed, raped and killed.
2) In 1996 the "peace treaty" was signed with Chechen leadership. Federal troops were withdrawn and Chechens were left on their own. In 3 next years they robbed all they could reach, and returned to their ages-old practice of attacks on neighbouring regions, mostly Cossack lands. In August 1999 they began a planned hostilities against Dagestan, where they got defeated by local militia (i mean - armed population, not police forces) with the assistance from Federal troops (air strikes and artillery support).
3) Current state of affairs is a very successfull version of "Vietnamisaion", and a return to Imperial policy regarding national autonomies. One clan gets Federal support and was granted a right to bear arms to fight insurgents. IMHO they may do what they want to their "competitors", if only they stop terrorist acts in Russia.
4) History of Chechen terrorism didn't start in 2002 with Dubrovka theatre attack. Back in 1995 Chechen gangsters took a maternity hospital (!!!) in a town of Budennovsk for ransom, after storming a town killing over 150 people in the strteets. Main terror acts: attack on Kizlyar, Dagestan in 1996, blowing up apartment houses in Moscow, Volgodonsk and Buinaksk, etc. In Msk they blew up two apartment houses, killing over 300 people who were sleeping in their beds. I take it personally, it could be my house targeted for another attack. Thank god - my local Militia (Police) officer was a Chechen, he's a nice guy, but he still didn't learn Russian in 15 years of service...
5) A Chechen problem appeared in early 1800s, when their gangs were fought to secure a Military-Georgian road, connecting mainland Russia with Kingdom of Georgia. At that times Chechens were pagans, making their business on robbery. They were hated and fought by almost all their neighbours, from Moslim Dagestanians to Christian Osetins. But, unlike Sioux or Navajo Indians they were not totally slaughtered.
6) On Feb. 23rd 1944 most of Chechens were deported to Kazakhstan for their unanimous support to nazis. Instead of total slaughter Stalin preferred to exile them, as usually being too humanistic. In 1958 they were allowed to come back, immediately starting their traditional slaughter and rule of the gun. Non-Chechen population began to riot against it, storming local Party commeetee after they started to decorate their fences with human guts...
7) Chechens usually were quite loyal to Russian power. Chechens were personal body-guards of the last Emperor. They are noble and proud people. Their main problem is that their most popular occupation is banditism. So it goes...
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You don't always have to pick a side. You don't always have to be in the argument.
While I won't really pick any side, it'll be a green day in hell the day I say anything good about Chechens.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The whole conflict is a gigantic clustered **** which nobody should touch with a 10-foot pole. Both sides are dirty as hell and guilty of attrocities of historical scale.
All I can say is that we are not going to tolerate mass murders and public executions on TV, as it happened in 1996-99.
I strongly advise you to watch this movie: http://imdb.com/title/tt0309047/
It's a WAR, don't you understand?!
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
American bombs kill schoolchildren. This is what they call 'war'.
Intent, WhiteHawk, intent.
It is brilliantly clear that the intent of Chechen rebels in a Moscow theater full on ordinary citizens or a school full of children is different from collateral damage of an attack on a legitimate miltary target.
But you knew that, perhaps your intent is questionable.
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I doubt that a movie can replace the actual footage I've seen from there Boroda.
I've seen enough beheadings of russians to have sympathy for you guys.
OTOH I've seen russians treat POW:s worse than animals, stuck to cargotrain naked at below freezing and then executing them.
Everything that I've seen from there yells 'stay out' and to be honest I thought twice about even posting here.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Not trying to create any hostility. I just want clarification.
By the statement quoted above, are you referring to the Chechen / Russian conflict or the one in Iraq / Afghanistan?
If you are infact referring to the latter, just who DO you want to be the victor given the condition for victory you specify in the post?
i would have thought my opinions on this war were obvious.
my initial reason for entering this thread was that hawklore wasnt sure which side to take. i found that to be totaly stupid.
and that its obvious that i am not talking about afganistan/iraq and none of my posts here have had any reference to this conflict..
Any fight or war in the world involving Brittish forces, and our Allies, i would hope can be resolved with as little casualties to our forces as possible.
as to 'winning a war', i dont believe it is possible. there is always losers on both sides, and the winners very rarely 'win' anything.
Our young boys are brave, and i hope that not another single one dies. sad that this is impossible.
edit: and just to clarify why the prospect of American soldiers entering this Rus/che conflict was brought up by me.....hawklore told me that this conflict was on his backdoor step.
i simply said it wasnt on mine, and i thank god that it isnt.
I side with niether, because its not my war. when my war comes, ill die for my family and kids.
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Thanks Boroda.
I'll look into finding that movie to watch...
I guess I allready have a viewpoint, and like all the others, it's stay out, but I got caught up in the which view do I take instead of the whats your opinion on it.
If all the historical information you provided is true, then the Chechens are truly a dangerous breed of 'terrorists'.
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Originally posted by Hawklore
Calling the Chechens terroists is like calling the Minutemen and Freedom Fighters of the american revolution terroists.
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
Honestly though...when a group takes over a grade school or a theater and murders hundreds of people, they are more likely to be seen as terrorists in the eyes of many.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Bodhi
I personally blame Chuck Norris for the whole mess.
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Batfink, I'd still like the answer to my second question.
Given the circumstances you postulate that the war with troorism cannot be won unless one side or the other is dead, just who do you want to win the conflict?
As to the other ramblings you posted in the answer to my first questions, it was all a null message. I looked but there was no content.
Boroda,
Stalin too humanistic?!?!?! :confused: :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl And to think some folks here didn't believe you had any humor outside of a vodka bottle.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Batfink, I'd still like the answer to my second question.
Given the circumstances you postulate that the war with troorism cannot be won unless one side or the other is dead, just who do you want to win the conflict?
once again you fail to comprehend me.
i was always refering to the 'war' between the russians and the chechens being impossible to win untill one side is totaly wiped out.
who ever said anything about any other conflicts?
this is the last time i take you seriously before i suspect you of trolling me.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
once again you fail to comprehend me.
i was always refering to the 'war' between the russians and the chechens being impossible to win untill one side is totaly wiped out.
who ever said anything about any other conflicts?
this is the last time i take you seriously before i suspect you of trolling me.
Perhaps it's the fact that you inclined US troops were fighting in the Chechen Rebellion?
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Hey Pavel,
Do you have a copy of Voyna that we can get setup on Skype with?
Wolf
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Originally posted by Hawklore
Perhaps it's the fact that you inclined US troops were fighting in the Chechen Rebellion?
shall i repost your self pwnage??
anyone who reads the thread through will see how you told us that the chechen rebels were 'directly related to the war on terror'
i simply suggested that you get yur president to send some troops there then.
is this too hard for you to comprehend or must i once again quote the whole thread in one post to make it clear to you?
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
shall i repost your self pwnage??
anyone who reads the thread through will see how you told us that the chechen rebels were 'directly related to the war on terror'
i simply suggested that you get yur president to send some troops there then.
is this too hard for you to comprehend or must i once again quote the whole thread in one post to make it clear to you?
Dude, make some sense..
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I'll add my 5 cents.
I'v seen this film. And the main your problem is that you don't know russian. If you know it, you will find a lot of "mistakes" in english translated cue. The terrorist leader is talking about war and in cue I see words about God... Interesting view onto russian language.
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Originally posted by Hawklore
Thanks Boroda.
I'll look into finding that movie to watch...
I guess I allready have a viewpoint, and like all the others, it's stay out, but I got caught up in the which view do I take instead of the whats your opinion on it.
If all the historical information you provided is true, then the Chechens are truly a dangerous breed of 'terrorists'.
Another movie to watch is "Chistilische" (Limbo), but I can't find it at IMDB even by the names of director or actors. It's about a new-year 1995 assault on Grozniy. One of the films that you need a bottle of strong alcohol to watch...
"Voyna" was shown in theatres in the West, but IIRC isn't availible on DVD, and Russian DVD doesn't have subtitles or English soundtrack. Probably it's considered "commie propaganda"...
Basic and most important facts about that "freedom fighters":
1) 500,000 refugees from Chechnya during their "independance" in 1991-94.
2) Terrorist attacks since 1995, first one - a maternity hospital.
IMHO it's enough to make up your mind.
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Originally posted by Hawklore
Dude, make some sense..
quote:
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Originally posted by Hawklore
It's not 600 miles away.
It's in our backyard, alot of the Chechen rebels now train with the Islamic Extremeists and share information with them, it is directly related with the war on terroism.
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quote:
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Originally posted by Hawklore
Calling the Chechens terroists is like calling the Minutemen and Freedom Fighters of the american revolution terroists.
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HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...... .
This bit where you contradict yourself rather foolishly within the space of a few posts, what i like to call 'self pwnage'
quote:
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Originally posted by Hawklore
It's not 600 miles away.
It's in our backyard, alot of the Chechen rebels now train with the Islamic Extremeists and share information with them, it is directly related with the war on terroism.
Anyways, I'd pick up a PKM not a Kalashnikov...
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(reply by batfink)
its 600 miles away for me, possibly further if i check the map.
if its in your back yard get your president to send more young soldiers to die. you gunna sign up?
niether side is pissed off with me, yet.......
maybe if they are one day, ill change my mind.
I'm sick to death with all these poxy wars, lets all just put the people who think war and death and nooks are cool on one side of the world, and the rest on the other.
when its all over in 2000 years we might have more space and housing prices might drop a little.
the way i see it, if there is a huge war, britain will be nooked off the globe in 5 minutes, and there aint no where for me to go.
i rekon ill just sit there and watch the atomic cloud coming and see if i can inhale a whole ciggy at once as it vaporises just before i do.
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and then here is the part that prompted me to suggest you sent some troop there, as you quite clearly state that the chechens 'are right in our backyard, and directly related to the war on terror'
would you like me to make any more sense out of your nonsense?
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I learned alot from that video. What a mess. As far as the guy at the end saying people from the west are uncaring...everyone has problems. I wonder if the Chechens are concerned with the Phillipines. Its a lousy world. Either swallow your pride and end the war, or die fighting for freedom.
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Watching a film and writing down comments.
1) 100,000 troops in the region: not true, there is a single brigade stationed in Chechnya. Maybe they mean the whole Caucasus/Southern Russia region, also counting police forces and maybe even Cossack militia. 100,000 troops is several times more then we had in Afghanistan, and Afghanistan is 70 times larger then Chechnya.
2) Wearing masks by Federal troops in Chechnya is prohibited by a special order.
3) People checking papers (including the one wearing a mask) speak with heavy Caucasian accent. Russian is foreign language for them.
4) Most of the people in camo shown as "Russians" have beards. Footage with Russian soldiers riding BTRs are probably from 10 years ago, look at the uniforms.
5) Statistics provided by "Memorial" is not true. You can easily catch them: they say 100,000 Russian troops, one for each 6 locals, then they say "population over a million", and "hundreeds of thousands refugees", that means Russians and other non-Chechens. All refugee camps for Chechens had the above mentioned 70,000 people, now they all returned home.
6) Again, you see Chechens wearing masks on the parade.
7) Maskhadov's speech in Chechen: they don't even have numerals in their language, they use Russian words instead.
8) "Unexplained explosions in Moscow", used as "a pre-text for invasion". Unexplained my ass. Second Chechen campaign started after "freedom-fighters" invaded Dagestan and were kicked out of there by the locals.
Already tired, I only want to see Russian atrocities, are there any? Can you, please, tell me on which minute of the movie evil Russian barbarians who came from the East (c) GH start to atrociously genocide poor peace-loving freedom-fighters like Gelayev?
Conclusion: boring russophobic propaganda crap. What else can we expect from a country that openly hosts terrorist leaders like Ahmet Zakayev?... Wasn't one of this British "journalists" killed together with Gelayev's gang with a gun in his hands 2 years ago?
Frankly speaking - I expected more. I want my atrocities and genocide! :cry
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Boroda I think your biggest problem is that you have blind faith to a system which has been shown to be just a propaganda tool. It's very tell-tale that the word propaganda means falseful information in the west, but just plain old information in the east. :D
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Boroda I think your biggest problem is that you have blind faith to a system which has been shown to be just a propaganda tool. It's very tell-tale that the word propaganda means falseful information in the west, but just plain old information in the east. :D
Sorry, I watched only first 13 minutes of the film Hawklore posted. Do you have objective information that contradicts what I wrote above?
Look, if they show Chechen militia searching the neighbourhood and say it's Russian soldiers - should I recommend the film as a reliable source of information? Russian soldiers don't wear beards.
If a British court refuses to admit that Zakayev is a terrorist and needs "more evidence", when Russian side brings a witness, who's fingers were shot off by Zakayev when he was hold for ransom - how should I call it? :rolleyes:
If you guys all believe that Russians are bloody savages - aren't you afraid that some day we'll believe it and start to behave like we are supposed to? :huh
And I don't have "blind faith". I only want to see atrocious genocide. Otherwise - confessions of people who say that their village was shelled by a battery of BM-21 "Grad" don't count. If it was true - there couldn't be anyone left to tell journalists about it.
It's easy for you to rationalise about this war. Mostly because 300 people were killed while sleeping in their beds in Moscow, not Helsinki.
If the enemy doesn't surrender - it gets destroyed.
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If you guys all believe that Russians are bloody savages - aren't you afraid that some day we'll believe it and start to behave like we are supposed to?
Yes.. we're actually afraid that it will happen again. 1939.