Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Flackie on January 29, 2006, 09:01:52 PM
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One quick question... what is the point of the TBM:huh it carrys less then the F4U and it is ment to be a bomber... it cant defend itself... its slow... and to top it off easy to kill:confused:
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1) Fighters didn't usually carry max bombloads in reality. In AH you'd be hard pressed to find anything but the max bombload used.
2) As the war progressed fighters became more and more capable of filling multiple rolls. Compare the TBM's payload with the F4F-4 and F4U-1, not the F4U-1D or F6F-5 as the earlier fighters are its true contemporaries.
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Yea the TBM came in before the Other corsairs so it had a "nice" bombloadout then.
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You can't compare a 1930's design TBM with a late war F4u. Its apples & oranges all over the place.
Compare it against the D3A1 "Val" Japanese dive bomber, or B5n "Kate".
You'll find it stacks up very nicely.
As to defending yourself in it, forget the rear guns. Lose your load & out fly em.
TBM will fly a LOT lower & slower and still be stable.
Or sucker em into trees, hills, etc after pinging em a time or 2.
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Fighters also don't carry torpedoes (ok, yeah, pretty useless, but that's beside the point).
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TBM has a lot to offer...
Scorepotatos can successfully up from a CV, climb to 10k, and safely bomb the harmless buildings without getting shot down, and harming their precious bomber rank.
At the same time, a crazy icehole like myself might up a TBM, fly it into a furball, and see how many people will auger trying to shoot it.
Hell, I say perk the TBM!
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its slow... and to top it off easy to kill
So is the P40B so what's the point?
The point is, they're cool.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Fighters also don't carry torpedoes (ok, yeah, pretty useless, but that's beside the point).
P38 could!
MAKE P38 AVAILABLE AT CVS WITH 2 TORPEDO OPTION AND FORMATION!
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Originally posted by Saxman
Fighters also don't carry torpedoes (ok, yeah, pretty useless, but that's beside the point).
According to the F6F-5 Flight Manual I have...it can carrry a torpedo.
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Well the TBM is besides it's Japanese counterpart the only carrier-based bomber with level-bombing capacities.
And with around 240mph it's quite fast aswell
And what do you do when you're in a fighter with heavy bombs, and you get attacked?
You drop your bombs.
The TBM actually has some means to fight back.
And remember, it's .303 might be useless, it wasn't against Japanese fighters, generally made of rice-paper and no self-closing engines or armor
(http://www.salute.org/Images/tbm-avenger.jpg)
(http://www.2iemeguerre.com/avions/images/image205.jpg)
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:O Fair enough :lol
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Originally posted by Saxman
Fighters also don't carry torpedoes (ok, yeah, pretty useless, but that's beside the point).
the 190 F8 carried torpedos
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TBMs took Sakai's eye!:furious
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Did they give it back after the war?
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Originally posted by parin
TBMs took Sakai's eye!:furious
Thought that was an SBD.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Did they give it back after the war?
no they traded him a nifty little metal sculpture for it, and he lost the reciept so he couldnt exchange it for another eye.
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Pretty sure it was TBMs. He came up underneath thinking he was going to get some easy kills. Guess the gunner let him get nice and close before he fired.:aok
Could be wrong dont have his book handy at the moment.
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Originally posted by Lazerr
Hell, I say perk the TBM!
I concur.
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Yeah, it was TBFs at the beginning of the Guadalcanal campaign (this was before GM started building them so TECHNICALLY not TBMs) so the Japanese probably didn't know much about them yet. That tunnel gun must've come as a bit of a rude surprise to Japanese pilots used to carving up Devestators.
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Originally posted by Flackie
One quick question... what is the point of the TBM:huh it carrys less then the F4U and it is ment to be a bomber... it cant defend itself... its slow... and to top it off easy to kill:confused:
I use the TBM in the TA for teaching basic ACM. I use it because nothing gets someone's attention faster than seeing a big torpedo bomber turn inside their Spit XVI. Ghosth has seen me use the TBM for this many times. It's an effective tool for teaching people never to underestimate the enemy just because the enemy is flying a big, slow attack bird.
If you do not believe that the TBM can't defend itself, stop by the TA on Weds or Thurs night. I'll up a TBM, you send a join message and we'll pick a fight with another trainer or one of the MA regulars in the room. You will find that if the TBM is very able until you burn off all your E. The keys are E management and not missing when you create opportunities to shoot. In most instances, the TBM pilot will get one or two chances to get guns on the enemy before he burns off too much speed. Another thing is the surprise factor. If they don't recognize the threat, they will be in for a genuine shock. When flying the TBM, SBD and D3a one must be extremely aggressive. Besides, it's a heck-of-a-lot of fun.
My regards,
Widewing
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...it was TBFs at the beginning of the Guadalcanal campaign (this was before GM started building them so TECHNICALLY not TBMs)...
[/B]
Thank Saxman learned something new.
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You should have flown with a TBM group in Coral Sea last summer. What a hoot!
After the torpedo run we rejoined 6-8 TBMs and head home, always picking up a couple of zekes looking for easy kills. Boy did they get a surprise when we'd turn and shoot them down. :lol It was always a race to see if we could kill them before some F4U jock would cherry pick em.
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As I recall the story, they were purely amazed that the F4U could get off the ground with 2000 lbs of bombs at the time. It wasn't something done as routinely as we do in the MA. And no way in hell you'd dogfight with that much ord slung IRL like we do either.
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one time i was flyin the TBM to enemy vehicle base and i had already dropped my 2000 pounder on a tiger:aok ........anyway a spit 16 shows up in hopes of killin me so i tried flyin it the best i can of course spit still out turned me, but i pulled vertical set it to auto angle jumped into ventral gun, and while spit tryed to line up its shot i unloaded into its nose with .303's BOOM! spit dead.
CRAZY thing is i was only shootin at spit for maybe 3 secs.
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I wish they would allow us to cary the 2,000lb bombs on the P38's.... I believe it was 2x2000lbers it could carry, they may have been bigger... This is the only plane I know of that will NOT let you carry the max ord.
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I don't really care to see a 38 with enough ord to kill two FH...
Then you would see twice the dweebs diving into a fully acked base, and assuming they don't compress, get that purdy bird all shot up. :rolleyes:
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yeah but it would be fun for us that know how to use it Lazerr :)
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Wasn't it TBM's that sunk 3 CV's in battle for Midway?
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TBM has dive flaps doesn't it ?
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There were six TBFs at Midway (again, the original Grumman-built birds) stationed at Midway with one of the Marine torpedo squadrons. Five of the six were lost.
The primary torpedo plane in the American forces was the TBD Devastator, which were more or less massacred by the Japanese.
The "Hero" of the battle was the SBD Dauntless dive bomber, which claimed all four Japanese carriers (well, subs finished them off, I think, but the Dauntlesses did the damage).
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Seeing as torpedos were brought up, and since there are so many folks here with reams of historical data, anyone got any idea of how many ships were sunk in WWII by torpedo bombers and by what type and if the ships were underway or anchored?
Maybe the 38 could carry torps but have never heard of them ever using them. (Not that the Army Air Forces had any success against ships that weren't anchored) It's also my impression that Midway pretty much proved low-alt torpedo attack on a heavily defended battle group was not tactically sound. Of course, you could make the argument that the tactic was not employed as intended since the bombers attacked alone and thus received the BG's full attention.
The only airborne torpedo attacks of note that I recall would be Pearl Harbor, Bismarck, and possibly, a British attack on an Italian port. Ships were sitting ducks at Pearl. Think there was only one hit of significance on Bismarck which, of course, was the lucky hit in the rudders.
Mace
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Originally posted by frank3
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And remember, it's .303 might be useless,
(http://www.salute.org/Images/tbm-avenger.jpg)
(http://www.2iemeguerre.com/avions/images/image205.jpg)
.303's were british they were .30 cal. but .308 cal. or beter known as the 30.06 remington;)
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IIRC, at Coral Sea the American attack WAS properly coordinated, and the TBDs were rather effective. However, as I said the attacks were better coordinated, and the Devastators weren't going in without fighter cover.