Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on September 06, 2000, 01:28:00 PM
-
(Reuters) - Outraged North Korean
diplomats boycotted a U.N. summit and
flew home Wednesday complaining of rude
body searches by U.S. airline staff in
Frankfurt, scuttling talks to allay tensions in
one of the world"s flashpoints. The pullout,
which came as Pyongyang was emerging
from decades of international isolation,
meant there would be no meeting in New
York between North Korean designated
head of state Kim Yong-nam and South
Korean President Kim Dae-jung.
How serious were these guys about talking a unified Korea anyway? Not very, looks like they took the first excuse available to pull out.
-
"Hm, our people are starving"
"Yes, comrade"
"Our military are eating up our resources"
"Yes comrade"
"We're kagging behind in technology in almost all areas"
"Yes comrade"
"Communism is dying around us, almost no support"
"Yes comrade"
"Ok, let's talk to the south for a bit, they seem to willingn to helpp us out"
"Yes comrade"
"WHAT?!? Airline security! The audacity! Cancel all talks!"
"YES, comrade!"
Man, this is silly.
------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
-
Well, I'll bet you that they gave them a 'cavity' check, and they took exception to it. We all hear on lax security is all over the globe, so what do they expect? Maybe it was the latex gloves the Security agents put on prior to doing 'the search'.
-
Okay folks let's turn this one around. How'd you like one of our heads of state bending over and having some half-wit stick his finger up HIS ass! (hmm, maybe some will like it but you get my point)
Perhaps the North Koreans are gullible enough to still believe in human dignity. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Do representives of any country get body searches? I don't think so.
I think its damned insensitive, not to mention stupid, to do this at such a critical time. We all know about the 'face' oriental culture values so much, therefore could a different reaction therefore be expected?
They might be looking for excuse to end the talks, but don't hand one to them on a plate...
-
Heh yeah, I agree. Their pride was hurt.
But for the sake of reason, look at what is at stake? I'd go through minor inconveniences if it'd have thousands of my people from starving to death, improve the nations economy, lessen the chances of war, lessen the need for very exnoodleve military, get better trade deals and loans from the world bank and having a better international reputation.
I wonder what Americans would do if Bush was or Clinton had a fuull cavity search (just covering both parties here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))?
-
Clinton is a searcher. Not a searchee.
-
ROTFLOL at all the responses! hehehehe
-
I heard Bubba kinda likes the cavity search, that it's something he demands from his women. So maybe he told those guys to do it to the Koreans as a favor?
I bet they liked it. They were only pissed because the security guy wouldn't give them a reach-around.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-06-2000).]
-
In their place I'd have done absolutely the same.
Also, note that Noth Korean leaders never travel by air. Only in their special armoured railroad car. Or a special train.
Hehe, Moscow-Pyongyang car in a train #1 ("Rossiya", Moscow-Vladivostok), is probably the longest railroad route in the world. Imagine a rusty dirty-green car with only a few uniformed passangers in a shiny white-blue-red express!
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
-
StSanta - maybe you're right about the state of North Korea - all the more reason why they don't want to be treated like toejam, or to seem that they're begging for assistance. Surely all they are asking for is to be treated like the representives of any country. And rightly so.
Dignity in the face of adversity is the key idea here.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-07-2000).]
-
This is actually one of their less lame excuse. One time they cancelled because the shape of the table .
-
How do we know they were treated like toejam? Dollars to donuts they got the same treatment any of us get on an airline, but the little commie rats were looking for an excuse to bail out.
-
Unfortunately, Funked, you or I are not high ranking diplomats, and we rarely attend conferences that concern the future of millions of people (and the perhaps the world).
The North Koreans are, however, and they should be treated with the respect we expect are diplomats to be given.
I'm sure they were looking for an excuse to bail out, IMHO they didn't need one - US airline staff sorted that out.
-
That's roadkill Dowding. And you know it.
Those bastards are just WAITING for the chance to pull the trigger. They weren't given a cavity search, they set off the whoopeeed metal detector, and got the magic wand waved over 'em. Big friggin deal.
I don't see THEM inviting for talks on THEIR land!
I don't see THEM trying for peace at all! They've built up this army, and one only needs to look at the OOB to realize what the diddly they're up to. They're looking for a back door to strike from once our backs are turned. They've even got their army in position.
Sheesh. I dunno why we even waste our time with 'em.
------------------
-Rebel
JG2 "Richtofen"
"You Rebel Scum"
-
I never said anything about them wanting to stay in the Peace process. I agree that they probably were looking for an excuse.
I think its interesting how our American friends rightly or wrongly demonize ('commie rats', 'those bastards' etc etc) anyone of communist persuasion (or even left-wing for that matter).
What are your views on Cuba for instance?
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-08-2000).]
-
Just my 2 cents worth, all gov'ts lie to the public, Communistic, Imperial, don't matter, lying means money, money means power.
My view on Cuba, or any country that is communistic is such:
It's like my golf game, it works in theory, but not in practice.
-
Oh I'm sorry, communism is good, so is totalitarian rule, execution without trial, invading neighboring countries, suppressing religion, etc. Please forgive me Comrade Dowding. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Read up a little on these commie bastards who have enslaved their people for the last 50 years: http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1999_hrp_report/northkor.html (http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1999_hrp_report/northkor.html)
The only good thing about the Cuban commies is that their enslavement of and disregard for their people occurs on a smaller scale than Red China or North Korea.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-08-2000).]
-
Dowding. We don't demonize them. They demonize themselves.
This kind of issue can get me slightly hot, so I will try to explain my view on Cuba calmly.
I don't like Cuba. Let's start off with that. They imprison their people to a society who's economy is crumbling, and give them no way out other then by life raft. If you're caught, you're shot.
Now let's take a look at the story with that kid. The father came to the USA (with orders from Castro to get his son back so he could have a poster child).
After MILLIONS of dollars were spent on behalf of that brat, and that amazinhunk, he finally got his kid (which is the way it should have been in the first place). How does he repay us?
He flips America the bird before he turns to board the plane, and has his son to the same thing.
They shoulda put C4 on that plane and blew it to kingdom come when he did that.
Ever seen the movie "Red Corner"? A journalist is falsely accused of a crime, sentenced to death, and his family billed the cost of the bullet.
Communism isn't free in any way shape or form.
------------------
-Rebel
JG2 "Richtofen"
"You Rebel Scum"
-
Funked, believe me: what you have been told about life in "communist" countries is far from truth.
After a recent discussion on AGW I reread "The hunt for the Red October". LOL! And it is definetly not the worst book about USSR! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Ripsnort, well said except that money doesn't mean power in such countries. Lying leads directly to power there.
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
-
Originally posted by Rebel:
<snip>
After MILLIONS of dollars were spent on behalf of that brat, and that amazinhunk, he finally got his kid (which is the way it should have been in the first place). How does he repay us?
He flips America the bird before he turns to board the plane, and has his son to the same thing.
They shoulda put C4 on that plane and blew it to kingdom come when he did that.
<snip>
LOL, I wonder where people ever get the crazy notion to flip this country the bird. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
-
Maybe it was the Hawaiin "Good Luck" symbolic finger? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Boroda, a lot of what I know about communist countries comes from close friends who are former citizens of the USSR and PRC.
I'm sure communism is real nice though. So nice that your people overthrew their government to escape it, then outlawed the party, and so nice that thousands of Chinese are willing to die gasping in a cargo container to escape it, and thousands of Cubans are willing to die at sea to escape it.
-
I had a real big schpeel to rhyme off, but in the end I decide "politics SUCK" would be enough.
-
The 'crumbling' state of Cuba might have something to do with the embargo placed on the country by the United States. I don't think you can simply blame the plight of the cuban people on the system they operate there, whatever its faults.
I can understand why there is hostility from Americans towards Cuba, viz the Cuban Missile Crisis - but why keep up the hostility towards an isolated backward nation? America has so much to offer Cuba.
This also has similarities with the plight of the Iraqi people and that country's treatment at the hands of the international community. Again, why refuse the country much needed humanitarian aid - since when can medical supplies be used a weapon of mass destruction? Of course, I believe there should still be the weapons inspections.
BTW Funked - I am in no way a communist. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)Socialist? Yes, and proud of it too. Check out my thread on communism.
BTW - Cuba libre.
(Lights fuse and retires to a safe distance.)
-
Funked, where did I say that I think "communism" is good? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I just want to say that people are people everywhere, and they can have fun of almost any conditions.
And more to say:
In Middle-Asian republics the wedding age is 13. In the Ukraine (hehe, I'm half Ukrainian) it is 16. Is is a reason to bomb them to stone age? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I doubt it. Every nation has it's traditions. Different cultures.
So - please, don't judge.
"Among the many other worlds
There's probably the one
Where cat walks singing lullabies
Below the rising sun"
Sorry for a very bad translation of Vadim Shefner's short joke (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In Russian it sounds like this:
"Sred' mnozhestva inykh mirov
Naverno est' takoy
Gde kot idet s vyazankoy drov
Nad bezdnoyu morskoy!"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 09-10-2000).]
-
Sorry Boroda I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I was aiming that comment at Dowding too.
How did we get on the topic of weddings?
-
Dowding-
The US does have a lot to offer Cuba, that I cannot argue.
I guess I don't mind Cuban people, just one Cuban person. That would be Fidel. The guy's a maniac.
You shoulda heard my brother and I laugh when he said he was going to send in Commando's to pick up the kid. We were rollin (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
To put it straight-
Countries in Cuba's (and other countries like her) position is not a fault of the people, but of their leader. Fidel put Cuba where it is now. No one else (probably because they're all too scared of him to do anything about it).
------------------
-Rebel
JG2 "Richtofen"
"You Rebel Scum"
-
I understand your position Rebel. But why keep up the embargo? We know from experience that this will not cause the people to rise up and replace the despot - especially if the tyrant has enjoyed that position for so long that the people don't know anything else.
Take Iraq, a generation is growing up which will resent the West, that has seen the poverty and despair of their parents and communities. Sure, Saddam has some responsibility for making the situation worse, but with no free press to challenge his word - he can just blame the situation on the Western powers.
I'm sure we don't need another enemy in the middle east.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-11-2000).]
-
Well Rebel, there are many points of view on that.
The US-Castro vendetta started when Castro confiscated US property IN Cuban land and was turned into state-owned stuff. If you read your history you will know the US almost virtually owned more than half of Cuba and were exploiting the sugar and tobbacco fields, taking all the wealth into the US and leaving nearly none for the Cuban economy. Dont argue with me on this, its on any non-biased history book. Go to your local library. The local Cuban government was for all purposes a US puppet, with all high officials receiving huge bonuses for their allowing the US to do all that.
So when the situation got strained to the breaking point and the people revolt and a dictator that kicks the US out is put in power, the US of course does not like it and so begins all this embargo and shtuff thats been going on all this time. And please remember Castro wasn't communist, he was forced to turn to the USSR just to keep the country alive and safe from US invasion.
I do not defend a dictator being in power, I do not like Castro or what he has done. But I do understand the instances that brought this to happen.
Let me also remind you of the words a North Korean leader (a prince I think it was) said after the US increased the embargo restrictions:
"Boycotting a nation only makes the people hungry. It doesn't make people revolt, it just makes them die".
Edited: Interestingly enough, after those restrictions (on heating oil and food I think it was) were put in place, the N. Koreans launched a missile over the US base in Japan... remember that? Well, what the news media did NOT say was that the restrictions were not only LIFTED, but "international aid" was increased tenfold after the N. Koreans agreed to limit their missile development programs. Man that took BALLS to do... I like that prince! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You would think that after 50 years and 2 examples that boycotts and embargos dont work, the US wouldve learned that lesson. Seems they haven't. God knows how much suffering this policy has caused.
What was this thread about again? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 09-11-2000).]
-
Do you seriously think someone in the West wants Saddam to be replaced? What for? To form a Kurd state that will take parts from Iraq, Turkey and other countries?
Politics is a dirty and bloody business. Example: US supports Kosovo Albanians but declares they fight Usama Ben Laden and co, the ones who sponsor Kosovo and Chechen terrorists. All that rethorics about "democracy" and "free world" have only one purpose: to fight an economical war against competitors. And Europe caught in a trap during the cold war still has to follow the US, even if it leads to economical and social disasters (see the consequences of the agression against Yugoslavia).
And now please tell me who deserves more respect: Fidel or mr. Clingon and his gang.
Disclaimer: all thet I wrote above is nothing more then a opinion that I want to be discussed here ("troll" or a "provocation") (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As for wedding - I think that it is one of the best examples of cultural differences, at least the most obvious I could think of.
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
-
Boroda - I think the aggression against Yugoslavia was justified, both in the civil war and the Kosovo campaign.
It wasn't so much the US that was leading us, more like common sense. Its something that Russia ought to use more often, viz Cheychna (spelling wrong I know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). Just watched a documentary by Babitsky.
Democracy is far better system than communism Boroda - no offence, but we have more freedom in the UK than yourself in the USSR ever had. It may not be working in Russia at the moment - but neither did communism.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-11-2000).]
-
Heh if it wasn't for his human rights record, Castro would be one cool dude.
Small country, and he's stood up to lots of assasination attempts, lots of attempts to overthrow his government, US embargo for longer than I've lived and whatnot.
He's David, and the the US is Goliath. Too bad he's a mean David.
I always cheer for the little guy in such confrontations.
The Cuban economy is wasted because of Castro's inability to adjust to changing times. There are other ports he can trade with, and get good prices from. He just ain't to any significant degree.
Still, he's cool from standing up to the US for so long. He sucks bigtime for his human rights abuses.
His beard earns him an extra .2 coolness points though.
------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
-
Disclaimer: Once again, I AINT defending Castro.
"There are other ports he can trade with, and get good prices from. He just ain't to any significant degree."
StSanta, if you own a bussiness and you trade with the US, you WONT trade with Cuba. Period. The very moment US finds out you do, they will cut you off. My family owns a chemical distribution company back home, Cuba was a great market to push into... problem was, if we did we lost more than half of our costumers in the US, our tax benefits (for trading with US), and most of our source of raw materials.
So it aint that Cuba doesnt go into other markets, its that the other markets cant afford to trade with Cuba, because if they do Big Brother USA will cut off US trade and benefits to them.
So go figure.
-
Tac:
I somehow dopubt the US will cut off trade with latin American countries, or European countries for that matter, who invest and do business with Cuba.
I want the sanctions lifted as well - hell, the whole deal stinks of hypocricy. Normal trade relations with the friggin' *Chinese*. but not Cuba?
The former are much worse than Castro.
------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
-
Dowding, it was justified in your mind. That's enough for you.
Human rights? Who cares for Serbs being killed in Kosovo now, Christian monasterys 800 years old being destroyed, Serbian workeres locked out from their workplace by British KFOR troops?...
Human rights is always a stick with two ends. Some people are more equal? (Kosovo war showed us a bright example of a media newspeak: "ethnic cleansing"="police antiterrorist operations", "humanitarian catastrophe"="blame anyone but our bombs for this disaster", etc.)
And please, believe me: Chineese are not better or worse. They are just different. Are you sure you can blame people for being different from you?
Hehe, sometimes when I talk to Europeans or Americans here in Moscow I feel that there is a big difference between them. Russians are much closer to Europeans. Strange, isn't it?
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
-
Originally posted by Dowding:
I'm sure they were looking for an excuse to bail out, IMHO they didn't need one - US airline staff sorted that out.
I think we should be clear on one thing, anyway.
The US AIRLINE may indeed have paid the salaries of the SECURITY STAFF. That is the general practice.
However, in FRA as in almost every other country, SECURITY STAFF procedures are defined by the country in which the airport is located.
For example, US Security Staff are hired and paid by the airline. (At some airports, all airlines share the expense, at others with individual gate security, a specific airline pays according to use.) However, Security Procedures are defined by the US FAA.
So, "US" doesn't enter into this. It was German security regulations in action.
Just thought I'd get that straight. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Originally posted by Tac:
And please remember Castro wasn't communist,[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 09-11-2000).]
Well, certainly at least not until the "revolution" was successful. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) After all, he was getting support from many in the US during his fight against Batista.
Here's a site, just one of many that show non-support of Batista and attempted support of Castro:
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/cuban-rebels/4-3-58-embargo.htm (http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/cuban-rebels/4-3-58-embargo.htm)
(The NY Times reported that the US Government suspended a shipment of arms to Batista in this article. As well as indicted a NY firm for trying to ship arms to Castro.)
WASHINGTON, April 2 (1958)--The United States Government has imposed an embargo on arms shipments to Cuba. Officials said today that it would not be lifted so long as the current tension continued.
News of the embargo came as a Rochester, N.Y., concern and three of its officials were indicted on conspiracy charges stemming from alleged attempts to send arms to the Cuban rebels. The indictment was returned by a Federal grand jury here.
The arms embargo was indicated in a little-noticed statement made available by the State Department about ten days ago. It suspended a shipment of 1,950 Garand rifles bought by the Cuban Government of President Fulgencio Batista."
I love reading "new, improved!" history.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 09-12-2000).]
-
Toad, history is just a bunch of misunderstandings and mistakes. Just remember how WWII started.
Now - some stupid security boss didn't get the correct instructions on how to handle foreign diplomats, or that North Koreans used the wrong gate instead of a diplomatic green-corridor, or something even more stupid...
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
-
Originally posted by Boroda:
Toad, history is just a bunch of misunderstandings and mistakes.
In some cases, that is true.
There are also deliberate, pre-meditated actions. (Which, of course, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight can prove to be mistakes or smart moves! Gotta love this life stuff!) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In any event, what is your point there? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I don't subscribe to situational ethics in any event. There is right and wrong.