Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bagrat on January 31, 2006, 12:46:56 AM
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i saw this on a diff game but what if when planes began to stall they would shake, kinda like when ur goin 600mph? you know from the unbalance of wind crossing an hitting the wings.....YEAH!
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Tis called buffeting,
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buffeting.............yes a buffet is involved
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I hate them..the food is always lousy.
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Oh, man. How long did you plan that?
I'm still giggling.
HONK!
Gooss
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I think there ought to be some buffeting from the puffy-ack also.
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Originally posted by bagrat
i saw this on a diff game but what if when planes began to stall they would shake, kinda like when ur goin 600mph? you know from the unbalance of wind crossing an hitting the wings.....YEAH!
Well, there are more than one kind of stall, and the plane gives different "signals" for each. Many planes don't buffet before stalling, ever (such as cessna 172, for example, in my experience).
We do have a stall horn, by the way. Why model buffeting in planes that don't when the stall horn gives a great indication of impending stall?
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Originally posted by thndregg
I think there ought to be some buffeting from the puffy-ack also.
I concur. It would be very cool if the screen shook on a close blast.
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I fly a 1983 cesna 172 and when it stalls it does kinda shake just a bit, right as it hits stall speed, but once you release the pressure on the wheel and nose it down a hair it goes away really quick... next time you fly 1 ( I'm assuming you fly ) check it out, right b4 it actually stalls out when your basically holding the plane in the air with your controls and your on the edge of the stall you'll feel the buffetting, you can really feel it through your hands as they are on the controls
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I think the default stall horn, and most custom ones that try to emulate the stall horn are soo enoying! I replaced it with the buffeting sound that waffle made, much more comfertable on the ears. Are there any buffet stalls in ah? i forget.
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I think the horn is the best way to indicate impending stall. In many (perhaps most) WWII aircraft, there were no stall horns; and aircraft differred on how much indication each gave of impending stall. However, other than a horn, the indication would be a feeling of buffetting, and that is much harder to convey just with screen shake or a subtle sound -- such effects are not as noticable as having your body feel the buffetting. In computer simulations, you have to substitute one sensory modality for another, and it is important for the substituted modality to be as easy to notice as what it is substituded for.
For me, having flown games without the horn but only with screen shake and buffetting noise (like WWIIOL), I much prefer the horn as a warning of impending stall.
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Old topic...see here (https://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25714)
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Originally posted by Iceman24
I fly a 1983 cesna 172 and when it stalls it does kinda shake just a bit, right as it hits stall speed, but once you release the pressure on the wheel and nose it down a hair it goes away really quick... next time you fly 1 ( I'm assuming you fly ) check it out, right b4 it actually stalls out when your basically holding the plane in the air with your controls and your on the edge of the stall you'll feel the buffetting, you can really feel it through your hands as they are on the controls
They changed the wing in (i think) '71 or '72. My '67 did NOT buffet or shake. Wheel full back, power all the way off, all I ever got was a mushy feeling followed by the nose drop. I never did any stalls in the later models, so yo are no doubt correct there.
Now, if you want a nasty stall, try a traumahawk. Wants to drop a wing and spin you. And it isn't approved for spins, since recovery is "problematic".
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Gooss how important was it for you to tell everyone here that you "giggle"......
as in like a school girl hehe
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I still think you three guys put that up just as a gag. A great straight line, a set-up, and Filth's punch line. Priceless.
You don't giggle? Damn.
HONK!
Gooss
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Force Feedback.
It wiggled and vibrated when I flew poorly and stalled.
I flew poorly alot.
I use an X52 now.
Wife took the feedback stick.
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Originally posted by rshubert
Now, if you want a nasty stall, try a traumahawk. Wants to drop a wing and spin you. And it isn't approved for spins, since recovery is "problematic".
Shubie,
You sure bout that? I was the Chief Pilot of a Piper dealership in the mid-late 70's. I picked up our first new Tommahawk and we were kinda excited because it was the first low wing Piper approved for spins. Up till then, I gave students spin training in a Great Lakes or Citabria. I spun that little Tommy on the way home a few times and it was pretty squirelly but I was mostly worried bout the tail comin off. It was a pretty violent stall/spin for a primary trainer. Did they possibly revoke it's spin certification later on?
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Originally posted by ROC
Wife took the feedback stick.
:rofl
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I've never actually been in a spin in a real AC, I generally try to avoid those if at all possible LOL, of course I don't have a nice little Pieper like that, if that was the case I might play around in it a lil, I like low wing AC there so much funner, you actually feel like your cutting through the air, vs the feel of a glider from high wing such as a 172... I think any plane that is on the verge of a stall should feel a little buffeting as the flow of air is disrupted... I'm not an aerodynamic specialist or anything so I could be wrong
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I'm sure someone like Golfer would know more about this than me, they have allot more experience than I do flyin real AC
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Originally posted by DAVENRINO
Shubie,
You sure bout that? I was the Chief Pilot of a Piper dealership in the mid-late 70's. I picked up our first new Tommahawk and we were kinda excited because it was the first low wing Piper approved for spins. Up till then, I gave students spin training in a Great Lakes or Citabria. I spun that little Tommy on the way home a few times and it was pretty squirelly but I was mostly worried bout the tail comin off. It was a pretty violent stall/spin for a primary trainer. Did they possibly revoke it's spin certification later on?
Yeah, they did after it killed several people. It turned out that if you had a forward cg (within limits, typical of pilot and instructor) there was an "unrecoverable spin mode" if you made more than a couple of revolutions. I think they also put some stall fences on the wings to try to fix the problem, but as far as I know you still can't spin a traumahawk.
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R/C planes are more fun =) :noid
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Some airplanes are better than others. In a C-172 ('69 K model - 2005 G1000 Equipped) they've all been *****cats in slow flight, stalls and spins. Depending on the airplane, some would give you a buffet a couple knots above stall speed and some the first sign of the detatching airflow is a little shake and a the break.
In my opinion (and 1000's of stalls...bllllleh!) If you're doing a power-on stall you're likely to feel a little buffet because you will spend a longer time slowing down than you would holding your altitude in a power-off stall. It's also a good chance Iceman that you've never done a stall when someone else was doing it. You can actually sense much more about what's going on when you're just sitting there. For instance, I had a student not long ago who was making 60º bank turns every time he made a course change. I let it go a few times thinking he'd get it, but after 5 or 6 nothing was changing so I asked if he knew how steep his turns were. He replied 30º...the wrong answer! I took the airplane and did a few of his turns at 60º and he couldn't believe how steep it looked when you didn't have the controls.
Back to the buffet...
The most fun airplane to fly around in slow flight for me was the PA-23 Apache. When you got it slowed down and were doing slow flight properly...you had the "whomp whomp" of out of sync propellers, the stall horn (a god awful screaming noise) and a good buffet.
The Marchetti F-260 (think Air Combat USA) is probably the "most similar" airplane to what we have in AH that I've flown. That airplane with it's thin wing would really get into a buffeting fit if you overloaded the wing even at 180+kts coming out of a downline. RV6 kicked my butt that day as it was my first time in anything other than a Cessna, I had a student pilot certificate and he's got maybe 40 hours or more of Marchetti time (It was a SETUP!!!! I got hustled:D ) but when reviewing the tapes on each turn I'd load up the airplane and get the buffet and was a little slow getting out of the buffet. RV6 on the other hand flew right to the edge of the buffet, rarely went into it for any appreciable length of time and as a consequence, turned more effectively and shot me down repeatedly. I was complimented by the instructors on some of my evasive maneuvers and it was kind of neat to see me side by side with RV6's gun camera footage actually rolling left over/around his pipper and then diving back down under to the right trying to get away. There was a vertical scissors thrown in for good measure and a little "loss of separation" a few times that the IPs let slide all but once (probably inside of 100 feet at one point...the one time I was on his tail!!!:cry )
Aaaaanyway, there are (at least using mitsu's sound pack) buffet noises and the airplane behaves like it should at low speed. You get the mushyness, the stall horn (which is very good) and the sounds. Good enough for me.
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jeeze he was doing 60 degree turns, thats harsh, I know it depends on the AC but the most I ever really worked out in or had to do was 45, I'm sure its because of the plane..... I have ridden many many many times through stalls as my CFI was showing me proper procedure over and over again and then me doing it. The first few times I was doing the power off stalls, I was forgetting about carb heat and I wasn't looking at my ball ( big mistake in a stall ) so basically every time we would go up for a lesson we would go through it again and again, if I was doing them sloppy he would grab the controls and get me sharp again, you can definately feel the buffet more in a power on stall IMO, I've done so dang many of em I can almost predict when the nose will start to pitch over based on how many shakes there is, generally 3 right as it stalls, a little bump bump bump... Power on stalls were way easier for me to get the hang of in the begining, less procedure, basically just keep that ball centered and just release the pressure when it stalls... My main problem when learning that plane was doing 45 degree S turns and spot turning while keeping the plane at the same alt, my CFI said it was because I'm used to flight sims and not actually looking at the real horizon and the surroundings, so I had to fly for a long time with the stupid inverted plastic thing on my head so I couldn't look at my instuments, that was the absolute toughest for me, but after a while I got the feel of when the plane is pitching or yawing.
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Keep in mind that for a given rate of turn (say standard rate) your angle of bank is a function of speed. The faster you go the steeper you need to bank.
To get the point home to students when they say "Steep turns! No way it's an outside visual reference maneuver!" I have them block my view of the instruments with a sexual chart and then I'll do my steep turns. 45º private pilot steep turns are cake and the view outside is always the same. Here in Ohio we've got those fancy section lines that go N/S or E/W so you don't need any heading reference (just line up on a section line) and every time we roll out we get the bump of our wake. It does make it difficult to cross check and I still go through the head motions (outside clearing ahead, scan the instruments, outside clearing ahead, scan, outside, scan etc etc...)
I am the uber 172 pilot :rolleyes:
Oh and if you're flying FS9 or any other flight sim...use the virtual cockpit. Takes the instruments off of the "right smack in front of you" mode.
This video shows the angle... (http://www.furballunderground.com/Guest/Golfer/citation_approach_and_landing_1mbps.wmv)
(The link will be good as soon as it's done uploading around 2pm. I'm on dialup so it takes a while)
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Originally posted by Golfer
I am the uber 172 pilot :rolleyes:
When are we going flying so you can show me your l337ness?
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linky worky.
When are we going flying so you can show me your l337ness?
What part of call the friggin phone don't you get? Damn golfers.
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Originally posted by Golfer
linky worky.
What part of call the friggin phone don't you get? Damn golfers.
Fugger, PM me.
I'll be in south Florida this week though, back next Friday.
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Originally posted by Golfer
I have them block my view of the instruments with a sexual chart and then I'll do my steep turns.
Not thinking about flying the airplane are we? :D