Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: bagrat on January 31, 2006, 01:06:47 AM
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what if this was enabled, it would allow people to get a better view if obscured and it would "even out" because it would cause drag while open.
also its not like they didnt do it in real life
people would fly to a fight closed cockpit, then open it while turn fightin to get better view.
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might help landing when oil is hit
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Originally posted by bagrat
people would fly to a fight closed cockpit, then open it while turn fightin to get better view.
:rofl
What's your reference here? Black Sheep Squadron episode 14?
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I remember reading one account from an F6F pilot where they'd leave the canopy slightly open so that, when diving, the sudden change in airpressure wouldn't crack or shatter the canopy glass (another account in the same book, from an F4F pilot, told how after a dive out from high altitude his canopy DID shatter). Carrier pilots also frequently kept their canopies open during takeoff so they could escape the plane in a hurry if something went wrong.
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Since just about NONE of the fighters were pressurized, so it wouldn't be a change in pressure that cracked canopies. And the canopies were much more structurally sound when closed than when open, so I doubt it was dive speed that would crack a closed canopy but would leave an open one untouched.
As far as flying with the canopy open, ask yourself why the change to canopies in the first place? Why wasn't everyone flying around open cockpit just like in WW1?
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I would like to be able to open my canopy to see better. Get a nice breeze when i fart, and stuff like that. Just be great to open your canopy.
I think the reasons for a full closed canopy cockpit was either to make there planes look better, like more modern becuase during that time alot of the countries were trying to build better planes than the other country. When Russia came out with the I-16 it was a mono wing fighter, had a retractable gear, and had guns in the wings. So when that came out, all the other countries with Bi-planes wanted something like the russians had, but better. So they come out with planes with guns in the wings, mono wing planes, retractable gears in planes and maybe the first plane to have an inclosed cockpit made other countries want to stick it on their fighters so their fighters would look better.
Or the canopy was just to make the plane more Aerodynamic and create less drag.
Maybe both
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Trust me, it wasn't so the planes would look better.
And the I-16 was basically unknown outside of the USSR.
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Naw, the canopy was so my hair wouldn't get mussed before I go to the Pub looking for a date. :D
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
might help landing when oil is hit
So we could poke our heads out the left side and get our goggles covered with oil? Then take our goggles off and get oil in our eyes? :D
"Carrier pilots also frequently kept their canopies open during takeoff..."
Prior to ejection seats, it was standard procedure (not an option) to have canopies open and locked during landing and take off to make egress faster, if necessary. Feet were (are) flat on the floor and off rudder pedals so toe brakes are not jammed on during the trap.
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Originally posted by Rolex
So we could poke our heads out the left side and get our goggles covered with oil? Then take our goggles off and get oil in our eyes? :D
"Carrier pilots also frequently kept their canopies open during takeoff..."
Prior to ejection seats, it was standard procedure (not an option) to have canopies open and locked during landing and take off to make egress faster, if necessary. Feet were (are) flat on the floor and off rudder pedals so toe brakes are not jammed on during the trap.
Your mention of cv takeoffs reminded me of a bug in the game. If the cv is moving in a strait line you can auger your plane off the front end of the ship and the ship will push you for as long as it is moving in a strait line.
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Did you get a look at his plates?
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someone earlier asked what my reference was. my reference for this idea was .......why wouldnt a pilot fly with an open canopy, he'd get better view and im pretty sure they knew that 3/4inch of glass wasnt gonna stop a bullet.
also the movie midway, because they wouldnt put it on tv if it wasnt true (a smilie would be put here but couldnt decide)
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Well, if you ever get the chance, go to an airshow and ask one of the hi-performance fighter pilots how they like flying open canopy at 300 mph.
I think the look you get will pretty much explain it all to you in an instant.
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riding my old 125cc kawasaki KH125 at 70mph with the visor up was not much fun for my face or my eyes.
this being said, i am all for openable canopies.
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I'd support this idea, but only if the following countermeasures were installed:
Headshots: Instead of a pilot wound, an open canopy would leave it's pilot vulnerable to having his head removed with a cannon strike, causing a geiser of blood to spray up in the air, and a huge red message to flash saying "HEADSHOT!", and of course resulting in sudden unexpected death.
Jams: Open canopies could be damaged like flaps or gear, resulting in the canopy being stuck open, or shot completely off. In either case, I want the resulting windnoise to deafen, at least temporarily, the pilot, and/or possibly freeze him to death should he exceed a certain altitude.
Increased drag: Having a 2' diameter scoop with no outlet sticking off the top or front of your plane should cause drag. Hinged canopies should rip completely off, and ideally also find another way to decapitate the pilot.
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hubsonfire,
You forgot about the increased drag produced by an open canopy.
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Tx, overlooked the most obvious one. ;)
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Tx, overlooked the most obvious one. ;)
How about the drag induced by your mouth yaping all the time. Isn't that a scoop with no outlet? :rofl muahahahaha
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Trying to remember where I saw it, but evidently the 38 was even
sensitive to have the side panel windows rolled down in flight. It
apparently disturbed the airflow enough to lessen the flying abilities of
the bird.
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Yea, the P38 open side windows caused tail buffeting and except for during the taxi, the P38's canopy had to be shut per their operational procedure manual.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Carrier pilots also frequently kept their canopies open during takeoff so they could escape the plane in a hurry if something went wrong.
This wasn't an option. You were required to keep the canopy open for all takeoffs and landings when operating from a carrier.
My regards,
Widewing
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I think its a good idea, I would like a drop top on my plane, I'm a rag top man :)
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yeah i'd like to be able to pull my p-40's canapy back at times
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anyone there?
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would be cool to be able to slide the window open in the cockpit of the B-17:aok
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Howabout if you can slide your cockpit window back, you can sit up higher or "lean out" so you can see around the oil drapes for landings?
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good idea
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leaning out the window to see would not be very realistic unless the added a gogle feature because they wind would blur your vision
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true
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Ever stuck your head out the window of a car doing 120 mph?
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yes.yes i have!:D
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ever stuck your head out of a plane going 250mph:lol
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"Dangit! Can't see around the oil! Better open up the canopy."
*Pokes head out*
*WHACK!*
*Pilot Kill as my head is slammed into the canopy frame*
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yes after a bird shattered the canopy
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Sorry to dig this old thing up, but I'd like to add my vote for having canopies that open. I was gonna ask for this, but did a search first and found this :).
It was, in fact, common practice to fly with the canopy open, not only for CV ops but also just when cruising at low to medium altitudes. Especially in warm seasons and climates. Look at how many pics you see of USN planes especially cruising along with the top down.
Plexiglass canopies act just like plexiglass greenhouses. Sunlight comes through the plexiglass from above and heats the cockpit interior (which is usually a fairly dark color that collects heat). However, the IR heat radiated by the warmed interior can't escape through the plexiglass. Thus, the cockpit interior temperature rises. Another contributing factor is heat coming back from the engine, especially on air-cooled engines. With liquid-cooled engines, the heat gets channeled away from the cockpit to the radiators, but with the radial engines, the cockpit is actually in the heated airflow coming off the cylinders, especially if there's a cowl flap on the top. This is perhaps why pics of open cockpits are more common for USN planes than USAAF.
WW2 planes didn't have air conditioners, so the only way to cool the cockpit was to either go high enough that the cold outside air sucked the heat out, or let in fresh air from outside. Most planes had small fresh air vents, but at low to medium alts on hot days, especially with a radial engine, these didn't do enough. Therefore, the pilots often opened the canopy, which not only let in way more air, but removed the greenhouse effect, which was the main cause of the problem to begin with.
In addition, of course, pilots could see better with the canopy open, so (unless they were way up high or it was cold outside), they often had the lid open to have a better chance of spotting the nme. Then they'd close it when they spotted the nme. You often see this sequence in the close-ups of old war movies :).
As to closed canopies shattering during a dive, I can see that being possible even on unpressurized planes. Canopies almost always had rubber seals around the edges to keep out rain and keep in warmth at high alt, as well as to reduce drag. These of course weren't perfect seals, so air pressure was the same both inside and out while cruising along at high alt. However, the seals were good enough to really restrict airflow. Thus, in dive, the pressure outside would rise faster than the air could get inside through the seals, keeping the inside at a lower pressure. If the dive was steep enough, and went far enough, I can see it possibly causing a big enough pressure difference to crush the canopy, although I'm sure different planes behaved differently in this regard.
So, I think having canopies we can open at will is quite realistic. At least for those with sliding canopies or windows, so not on 109s, for example. But I agree, we need to consider all the game effects.
On the plus side, you get better visibility, cockpit temperature not being a game factor. However, there should be some restriction on opening the canopy at high alt, because the pilot would freeze. Maybe have a pilot wound-type fainting spell kick in above a certain alt, but which isn't permanent and just lasts until you close the canopy?
Of course, there's the drag issue, too. And perhaps some canopies would break off at very high speeds if not latched down closed?
As to pilot damage, on most planes there was no armor in the canopy itself, at least the part that moved, although there were exceptions. I guess that would have to be looked at plane-by-plane. But in the absence of moving the armor, I can't see there being much difference as to pilot vulnerability. In fact, it might make the pilot a bit safer. For instance, German 20mm had such a sensitive fuze that it would explode on plexiglass, resulting in the pilot eating beaucoup shrapnel from the shell and the canopy. OTOH, if the canopy was open, maybe that shell would go by right under his nose without hitting anything.
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So what's the big deal? :)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1144739022_79thp40.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1144739012_aussiemk8.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1144739128_opencanopyjug.jpg)
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Originally posted by Bullethead
However, the seals were good enough to really restrict airflow. Thus, in dive, the pressure outside would rise faster than the air could get inside through the seals, keeping the inside at a lower pressure. If the dive was steep enough, and went far enough, I can see it possibly causing a big enough pressure difference to crush the canopy, although I'm sure different planes behaved differently in this regard.
Bullethead - I thought if air is moving faster outside the canopy this would result in lower pressure outside (Bernouilli effect) - canopy would explode or rip off.
Some RAF pilots in BoB flew into combat with open canopies because of fear of being trapped in burning plane.
Only reason for having open canopies in AH imho would be to stick my prettythang out at guys who slag me off :)
Regards
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Ok, lets have openable canopies. BUT, when you go inverted, you fall out of your plane and the loss theme from Price is Right plays...you know, the tuba one that goes "Bump-ba, bah-dah...weeeeerrrrryoooo"
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Did bubble-top (360 degrees vision-canopy) aircraft have their canopy opened during flight?
All of the planes mentioned here have framed-canopies, was it possible for the P-47D and P-51D too?
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Originally posted by frank3
Did bubble-top (360 degrees vision-canopy) aircraft have their canopy opened during flight?
All of the planes mentioned here have framed-canopies, was it possible for the P-47D and P-51D too?
I've seen photos of P51Ds with open canopies but I think it was much less likely with those. Lots of photos of F4Fs, F6Fs, F4Us, Hurricanes etc. All with the highback profiles.
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I hit a bump on the highway with my GSX-R 600 doing around 150 mph ( it shut off at 153) , and it lifted my head up over the windscreen just enuff that it felt like it was going to rip my head off , helmet included LOL . I couldn't imagine what 200mph or higher would feel like , but i doubt it feels very good . I would assume that not too many pilots tried to stick their heads out unless they had to .
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Originally posted by Widewing
This wasn't an option. You were required to keep the canopy open for all takeoffs and landings when operating from a carrier.
My regards,
Widewing
Hiya WW! Long time. You tell em. Keep em honest and keep a rational and historical perspective. :)
But I do want my hook ... gorramit.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
So what's the big deal? :)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1144739022_79thp40.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1144739012_aussiemk8.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1144739128_opencanopyjug.jpg)
Mmmmmm open canopy pics. Like these too. Hiya, ol bean. :)
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Whisky58 said:
Bullethead - I thought if air is moving faster outside the canopy this would result in lower pressure outside (Bernouilli effect) - canopy would explode or rip off.
Good question, but as I understand this stuff, that's not how it works in this sort of situation. Air at any alt has a baseline pressure that's a function of alt. The Bernoulli Effect just causes local redistributions of this pressure to create small areas of relatively high and low pressure compared to the alt-dependent baseline. Thus, the pressure on the outside of a diving plane continually increases as it gets lower, even if the Bernoulli Effect makes some areas of the surface experience a slightly lower pressure than the altitude alone would otherwise indicate. Meanwhile, the pressure inside can only increase as a function of how fast air can flow in. The better the seal, the slower the internal pressure increase, and the greater the resulting pressure difference inside and out.