Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hawklore on February 01, 2006, 04:45:58 PM
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http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2006/february/ogrish-dot-com-suspect_shot_by_police.wmv
CHINO - A U.S. Air Force policeman who just returned from Iraq was shot several times by a sheriff's deputy late Sunday following a high-speed chase. The man, identified by family members as Elio Carrion, 21, was hospitalized at Arrowhead Regional Medical Center in Colton. Hospital officials would not release his condition, but the man's wife said he underwent surgery and was stable.
"He looks good. He's just very tired right now," said Mariela Carrion, a Louisiana resident who was visiting family in Pomona with her husband.
San Bernardino County sheriff's deputies released few details about what prompted the shooting. Sheriff Gary Penrod said in a prepared statement the department's homicide division was conducting a thorough investigation.
"As with all investigations, the circumstances involved in this shooting will be reviewed," Penrod said. "It would be inappropriate for me to make any additional comments until the investigation is completed."
The incident began about 10 p.m. when deputies saw the driver of a blue Chevrolet Corvette speeding at more than 100 mph through a residential area, deputies said.
Deputies tried to stop the driver, but he didn't pull over, sheriff's officials said. A short chase ensued, ending when the driver, Luis Fernando Escobedo, skidded and slammed into the block wall on Francis Avenue near Benson Avenue in Chino.
Also to those who arn't aware, the one shot was the passenger, and was attempting to calm the situation down.
Make your judge on what the officer tells the suspect to do before he fires.
My opinion:
This could of and should of been prevented by the cop maintaining his distance from the suspect.
I'm not an officer, but, distance = safety for you and the perp, common f**king sense right there.
Another thing noticed, he charges when he fires, connects with two shots fires 3.
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Don't these losers ever watch America's Wildest Police Videos? It always ends badly when you run.
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Don't these losers ever watch America's Wildest Police Videos? It always ends badly when you run.
You gotta realise, just because your the passenger in a vehicle thats running, dosn't mean your running from the cops, you'd prefer them to jump out to their death?
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That's what I get for not reading your post close enough. My bad.
Carry on.
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Ogrish is not a work safe link. Maybe a disclaimer on that henceforth.
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Originally posted by Golfer
Ogrish is not a work safe link. Maybe a disclaimer on that henceforth.
Hence the reason I did not click on the link and got confused at to who was who.
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I just watched the video on CBS Evening News.
Deputy: Get up, get up!
Carrion: OK, I'm getting up.
3 shots are fired by the deputy.
Suspended with pay? That deputy should be under arrest for Attempted Capitol Murder and put in genpop.
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WTF??? I guy complies and gets shot?
Of course the pigs will cover it up saying that it appeared the guy had a weapon. But regardless he cannot justify 3 shots. I work law enforcement right now and at that range one shot and then reassess the situation..if he continues to be a threat then shoot again...anything else is excessive force. By the definition of "Deadly Force" the shots should have never been fired in the first place.
And they wonder why people don't like the cops.
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Yea. It certainly appears that the cop at the very least needs his badge and firearm carry rights yanked. Chuck the fleeing driver in jail too, but that cop needs to find another line of work.
Reminds me of another video that went around, where a perp is already subdued and one cop is beginning to put on the cuffs, and a female cop walks up and puts a round into the concrete a few inches from the perp's head. Oops.
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ASTAC,
I disagree about the multiple shots... CHP shoot technique is 3 shots, pretty much regardless of the situation. It's on the theory that if you're shooting, you should be shooting to kill, and if you're shooting to kill then you better keep firing until the guy is dead.
3 "accidental" shots though... Well, as long as one shot is uncalled for, three isn't really all that much different especially if he's just carrying out training he learned on the firing range. 2 to the body, one to the head.
Good thing the cop didn't shoot too straight in addition to being a bit too excitable for the job. I try to be understanding when a cop involved in a high speed chase gets a bit excited while applying cuffs and taking down a perp, but getting so excited that he blows away a complying suspect is not acceptable no matter how much adrenaline he's on after a pursuit. They simply have to be better than that.
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No department in the US would ever use "shoot to kill"
It's "Shoot center mas"
Often times that results in a kill...regardless from every story I've read on it now and watching the clip many times..there was nothing the victim did to warrant being shot. Then kicked afterward while he was down.
I can't wait to see what that department sayd to try to justify it.
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Watching the video again, it looks like the cop just wanted to shoot someone. Hell, he had 2 talkative but complying suspects sitting on the ground... Racially motivated attempted murder or just a flipped out cop? Good damn thing the camera was on, otherwise the cop would be claiming that the guy jumped him.
As it is, a good lawyer is gonna go for attempted murder and I doubt the cop is gonna get any sympathy for shooting an AF SF troop who was a passenger and complying suspect after a high speed pursuit.
And ASTAC, you're simply not right on shoot policy. My father was career California Highway Patrol and my brother is currently serving in the CHP, and their shoot policy is a combination of "shoot to stop", and "don't shoot if you aren't willing to kill". In practice, that means 2 shots center of mass followed by one to the head. The last time I discussed this with my Dad (a few years ago), they were training to that standard on the range, 3 shot groups with an assessment after each group.
The philosophy behind that shoot policy is very long, but it is based on a "safe distance" around the officer. If you let an attacker inside the safe distance (about 20 ft if I recall correctly), that perp WILL get to the officer unless the officer makes a stopping shot in the first group. A center of mass shot that does not connect with a major bone group (sternum or spine) will not cripple the attacker, and therefore a determined attacker, especially if they're on drugs, will make it to the officer and do some damage. So rather than shooting 2 to the body and assessing which pretty much guarantees that the perp can get to the officer, they go 2 to the body and 1 to the head, and only then assess.
You can quibble about whether this is a "shoot to kill" or "shoot to stop" policy, but the weapons instructors are not going to teach a non-effective tactic to CHP officers. If a CHP officer fires, it's very very likely to be in groups of three with the intent of connecting with a shot that results in an immediate stop, either a major bone in the torso, the spine, or the head. Criminal apologists can quibble all they want about the policy, but CHP training teaches that shooting is by nature a lethal measure and should be treated as the last possible option, but once that step is required they should go for the quickest and safest (for the officer) stop possible. Their tactic for that quick stop is lethal and effective, and no court or DA in the state of California is going to challenge the policy.
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Originally posted by Hawklore
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2006/february/ogrish-dot-com-suspect_shot_by_police.wmv
CHINO - A U.S. Air Force policeman who just returned from Iraq was shot several times by a sheriff's deputy late Sunday following a high-speed chase. The man, identified by family members as Elio Carrion, 21, was hospitalized at Arrowhead Regional Medical Center in Colton. Hospital officials would not release his condition, but the man's wife said he underwent surgery and was stable.
"He looks good. He's just very tired right now," said Mariela Carrion, a Louisiana resident who was visiting family in Pomona with her husband.
San Bernardino County sheriff's deputies released few details about what prompted the shooting. Sheriff Gary Penrod said in a prepared statement the department's homicide division was conducting a thorough investigation.
"As with all investigations, the circumstances involved in this shooting will be reviewed," Penrod said. "It would be inappropriate for me to make any additional comments until the investigation is completed."
The incident began about 10 p.m. when deputies saw the driver of a blue Chevrolet Corvette speeding at more than 100 mph through a residential area, deputies said.
Deputies tried to stop the driver, but he didn't pull over, sheriff's officials said. A short chase ensued, ending when the driver, Luis Fernando Escobedo, skidded and slammed into the block wall on Francis Avenue near Benson Avenue in Chino.
Also to those who arn't aware, the one shot was the passenger, and was attempting to calm the situation down.
Make your judge on what the officer tells the suspect to do before he fires.
My opinion:
This could of and should of been prevented by the cop maintaining his distance from the suspect.
I'm not an officer, but, distance = safety for you and the perp, common f**king sense right there.
Another thing noticed, he charges when he fires, connects with two shots fires 3.
And no... distance does not = safety every time, from the video, which is totally inconclusive, you can tell the Deputy was at least 1 arms distance away from the suspect... which is the standard training. It also looked as if he was close enough to see the inside of the suspect veh meaning he had to be close...
If the susps were both inside the veh, the "pilot" approaches the driver side and the "wing-man" the passenger.
I cant tell where the other officers were, if any, but it didn't look like a standard felony stop which is the safest way to empty a suspect vehicle... that would be my 1st tactical question; "Why no felony stop?"
What the Dep failed to do was take absolute control of the situation, the suspect was mouthing off about being an MP, which does nothing to impress any cop and only alerted them he was trained, possibly armed and more dangerous... the Dep needed to use his big boy voice and tell the susp to STFU, now, and not to move a muscle or he would be shot. Period. No debate, end of story.. "STFU, freeze!!!!... and if you move, I'll blow you're motherfkn head off!!"
Otherwise I have no problem with that Dep capping that guy, he was mouthy a-hole and IMO doing his best to distract the Dep rather than sitting still, keeping his mouth shut and following the Deps orders... you cant run from the gendarme then tell the officers you re cooler, tougher and more bad bellybutton which justifies mouthing off and putting yourself at risk... and no, yelling like that after being pulled over is not "trying to help", helping himself would have been being quiet and eating humble pie until the Deps asked for his story.
He wasn't acting like a professional MP, rather a bigmouth who thinks his time in the sand means anything to a cop on the side of a road at zero dark thirty am... that kid may have had huge responsibility in the military, but on a California road side he's Joe She-it the Rag man. If he played his cards right, he could have easily got some, what we call, "professional courtesy"
One thing I did notice.. that Dep screamed into the radio like a biitch, bad form.
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Originally posted by eagl
but that cop needs to find another line of work.
How about making license plates?
shamus
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you cant run from the gendarme then tell the officers you re cooler, tougher and more bad bellybutton which justifies mouthing off and putting yourself at risk.
Being a passenger in a high speed chase does not make you guilty of running from the cops.
and Military cops are cooler and tougher than civ cops..just look at any base.you can see the difference between Military cops and the Federal cops they hire to work along side them.
Though I aspire to be Florida HP when I retire from this Mickey Mouse canoe club, (because I actually like enforcing the law)I don't have to much respect for the police I've delt with in the past. The dire need for more police in this country has drasticaly lowered the bar on the quality of the recruits. Alot of them from my experience were guys that couldn't hack it in the armed forces or were wanna be tough guys. Didn't care about the laaw as much as they did the power trip. What happened to the days of professionals that cared about the laws of the land..and enforcing those laws because it was the right thing to do?
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Is the guy OK?..What's his status?
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cnn reports that the guy is in stable condition in a hospital. He took rounds to the chest and leg.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Being a passenger in a high speed chase does not make you guilty of running from the cops.
and Military cops are cooler and tougher than civ cops..just look at any base.you can see the difference between Military cops and the Federal cops they hire to work along side them.
Though I aspire to be Florida HP when I retire from this Mickey Mouse canoe club, (because I actually like enforcing the law)I don't have to much respect for the police I've delt with in the past. The dire need for more police in this country has drasticaly lowered the bar on the quality of the recruits. Alot of them from my experience were guys that couldn't hack it in the armed forces or were wanna be tough guys. Didn't care about the laaw as much as they did the power trip. What happened to the days of professionals that cared about the laws of the land..and enforcing those laws because it was the right thing to do?
Only a court can find someone "guilty", being a passenger makes you an "unknown", maybe dangerous.. maybe not. Those officers lives are on the line so its better safe than sorry.. everybody is dangerous until proven otherwise.
There's a reason they fled, did the officers know what that reason was?, it could be anything from stupid kids to armed felons... SBSO doesnt hand out crystal balls.
Lower standards are killing lots of Depts, but I can tell you when I got hired, out off all applicants onlly 3% got hired, fewer passed the academy, feild training, probation.. from start to finish less than 1% could hack it.
When I worked in training, we routinely washed out former military MPs, and military in general, regardless of how cool they were in the service.
California law doesn't care and requires every police trainee applicant to pass a whole bunch of tests. While military experience may get you a few extra oral score points, you still must pass every aspect of the process, and be better than everyone else, and the right color, if you want a job.
Written, oral interview, background, 1st and 2nd phase medical, logic tests (the infamous flags), 2 seperate psyche tests; MMPI followed by a head shrink session... after all these, which can take up to a year, you're ranked based on how well you did in each phase, its Fed law, so you can pass everything and still not get hired. If you fail anything, you're out and welcome to re-apply in 12 months.
Once hired; 18 week academy >> 6 months of 15+ hour days as a lower than feces "trainee" >> 12 months of probation during which you can be fired at anytime for no reason.
200 applicants, 1 of them me, were fighting for 3 openings... I had to fight and work my as5 off, nothing was handed to me and being a Marine Reserve really only helped in the academy and later in feild training. Anyone who thinks they can walk on to a police / fire dept after military service has a rude wake up in store.
I'll tell you the #1 reason we washed out military guys: bad credit. Bad credit will kill your law enforcement career dreams, you could be a Navy Seal with icewater for blood, qualified to kill in each time zone with the ability to memorize the penal code... and your bad credit will keep you out.
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and your bad credit will keep you out
of the military too....especially for security clearances
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
And no... distance does not = safety every time, from the video, which is totally inconclusive, you can tell the Deputy was at least 1 arms distance away from the suspect... which is the standard training. It also looked as if he was close enough to see the inside of the suspect veh meaning he had to be close...
If the susps were both inside the veh, the "pilot" approaches the driver side and the "wing-man" the passenger.
I cant tell where the other officers were, if any, but it didn't look like a standard felony stop which is the safest way to empty a suspect vehicle... that would be my 1st tactical question; "Why no felony stop?"
What the Dep failed to do was take absolute control of the situation, the suspect was mouthing off about being an MP, which does nothing to impress any cop and only alerted them he was trained, possibly armed and more dangerous... the Dep needed to use his big boy voice and tell the susp to STFU, now, and not to move a muscle or he would be shot. Period. No debate, end of story.. "STFU, freeze!!!!... and if you move, I'll blow you're motherfkn head off!!"
Otherwise I have no problem with that Dep capping that guy, he was mouthy a-hole and IMO doing his best to distract the Dep rather than sitting still, keeping his mouth shut and following the Deps orders... you cant run from the gendarme then tell the officers you re cooler, tougher and more bad bellybutton which justifies mouthing off and putting yourself at risk... and no, yelling like that after being pulled over is not "trying to help", helping himself would have been being quiet and eating humble pie until the Deps asked for his story.
He wasn't acting like a professional MP, rather a bigmouth who thinks his time in the sand means anything to a cop on the side of a road at zero dark thirty am... that kid may have had huge responsibility in the military, but on a California road side he's Joe She-it the Rag man. If he played his cards right, he could have easily got some, what we call, "professional courtesy"
One thing I did notice.. that Dep screamed into the radio like a biitch, bad form.
This guy was just back from Iraq.
He was attempting to calm the man down..
"I'm on your side man, look, I'm in the military, I've been in it longer then you I'm in the military and police officer"
This looks like a lone cop stop, which means, this cop made every decision wrong, put himself in this situation, who knows what the cop was yelling before this video starts, it could be, Get out you ****ing -racial slur-, you Golly-geen -racial slur- get out of the ****ing car or I'll blow your brains out, you never know what he was saying before the video..
If you notice aswell, the videos audio was edited, possibly racial slurs being muted.
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Originally posted by Golfer
Ogrish is not a work safe link. Maybe a disclaimer on that henceforth.
I didn't disguise the link, anyone thats worried about work-safe, etc. should read the link b4 hand.
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Quick question..
Why does he charge forward when he fires?
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Hawk - my guess is that his training involves advancing while firing. In a crisis situation people tend to do almost exactly what they've practiced, good or bad.
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Originally posted by eagl
Hawk - my guess is that his training involves advancing while firing. In a crisis situation people tend to do almost exactly what they've practiced, good or bad.
Advance=Agression
Retreat=Fear/Defense
So either they CHP are Agressive, or they don't fear for their lives in gunfights..
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I hear the FBI's looking at it now.
And after watching the clip, that officer will go down.
Totally unjustified to shoot a guy who is doing what he is told.
I bet that Cop's not very happy that there was a video camera there.
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He tells the detainee "Get up", detainee says "ok I'm going to get up" then Bang bang bang.
Sure didn't look like self defense to me.
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It didn't look anything remotly close to a justifiable shooting. The video isn't the best quality but as soon as he said "OK, I'm getting up" "BANG BANG BANG"
Doesn't look right to me.
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Looks like he wanted him to get up just to get an angle on his bullet entry that he could say the guy was charging him.
wonder if the fediddleing pig even knew the camera was there.
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Ok, I just saw the clip on the news and I've got to say that was pretty disturbing.
The cop was clearly looking for any reason to shoot. And then the poor guy is screaming and writhing in pain and the cop tells him to shut the up.
That cop needs a round right between the eyes. Either that or he should be prosecuted for murder and then put in general pop in the pen. Wouldn't take long.
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I am seriously pissed off. If I was there on the sidelines I would have killed that cop on the spot. I wouldn't have hesitated to shoot him.
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that cop is going to need lots of lube where he's going!
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Paid administrative leave in a brothel?
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I am seriously pissed off. If I was there on the sidelines I would have killed that cop on the spot. I wouldn't have hesitated to shoot him.
...and after a fairly speedy trial, you would be rotting in jail for the rest of your life (assuming you survive the encounter).
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I am seriously pissed off. If I was there on the sidelines I would have killed that cop on the spot. I wouldn't have hesitated to shoot him.
uh-huh. sure you would.
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Originally posted by Sandman
...and after a fairly speedy trial, you would be rotting in jail for the rest of your life (assuming you survive the encounter).
that raises the question, imagine one is in a fast food joint, when for some reason an on-duty officer snaps and goes postal in mickyds. Could you plug him, without going to jail, or do you sit back and let him murder everyone in the place?
I mean which is more important innocent lives or a 20 cent piece of tin someone is hiding behind.
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The guy made a motion to flee...at least that's what it looks like to me. Perhaps it was misinterpretedby the cop but from what I can see, it looks like a motion to run.
We don't know if he was intending to run or not, or whether or not it was a coincidence. But you can't take any chances with a cop. From the video, it looks like the suspect starts to stand and then shifts his weight forward like he's about to make a break for ot.
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Originally posted by texace
The guy made a motion to flee...at least that's what it looks like to me. Perhaps it was misinterpretedby the cop but from what I can see, it looks like a motion to run.
We don't know if he was intending to run or not, or whether or not it was a coincidence. But you can't take any chances with a cop. From the video, it looks like the suspect starts to stand and then shifts his weight forward like he's about to make a break for ot.
I think thats a stumble/hesitation.
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I think that is someone who forgot what his job was, and solider on the street isnt it.
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Originally posted by JimBear
I think that is someone who forgot what his job was, and solider on the street isnt it.
Just wondering you ever come back from a combat area before, knowing your going back?
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This was NOT a CHP... it was a Deputy... like Barney Fife.
Mac
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Police are not free to abuse the law how they see fit. If a police officer attempts to murder another person, I see it as my duty to step in.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Police are not free to abuse the law how they see fit. If a police officer attempts to murder another person, I see it as my duty to step in.
After a high speed chase, cops are running off adrenaline. Sometimes, mistakes happen when they're like that. If a 21 year old punk kid can assume a suspect looks like he's about to flee, then what do you think a cop sees from his angle when pumped up and ready to rock? Regardless if you're a passenger in a high-speed chase or not, you're still a suspect. Everyone is treated the same at the scene of a crime until everything is under control and questioning can begin. This Air Force cop is no exception. He made a move to flee (or looked like he did) and the officer reacted in fear of his life. You don't know why someone runs, and you can only assume the worst after a suspect takes flight.
It is not your duty to obstruct justice because you think you know better. We cannot assume the cop is in the wrong because of a video. We don't know the factors behind the situation, such as if the chase was very aggressive or if the driver put up a fight. We can see that the suspect was aggressive himself in that he did not comply immedieatly to the officer's orders. He made a move the officer took as a threat and this happened. Officer Involved Shooting incidents are very serious, and I do not believe that any cop, green or not, would pull the trigger unless he had a damn good reason to do so.
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You trust police officers like they are a godsend to the human race. They are the most trust worthy people ever.
It is my experience that 99% aren't.
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No one cheers louder than I do while watching COPS or police chase videos for the suspects to get a good beating.
But I don't see how anyone can watch that video and not see that that deputy is out of control. It is obvious to me that he tells the suspect to "get up" so that he can put a couple of rounds in his chest and not his back. His constant use of (what seems to be) the f-word further indicates he has gone over the edge.
I see no attack posture by the suspect, and I do not even see him take a step in any direction once he is on his feet as if to flee. Was the driver already in custody? Why would a lone officer (who has backup no too far off as you can hear the sirens) want multiple suspects anywhere but on the ground?
It just smells like rouge cop. I would like to see what other indicents or complaints this deputy has in his file. I am sure this is not the first and I bet investigators go back and take a second look at previous encounters.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
You trust police officers like they are a godsend to the human race. They are the most trust worthy people ever.
It is my experience that 99% aren't.
Don't patronize me...
Most police officers that I know are decent enough people on and off the job. I don't base my opinion of police officers off of one video.
I'm not defending the police officer, I'm merely offering an explaination as to why anyone would pull the trigger on a suspect. When I first saw the video, I believed that the officer was in the wrong and I still do, but I can also see the reason as to why he shot at the suspect like he did. It doesn't make him right, but it does answer some questions for me.
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And neither do I base my opinions off of one video either. I have seen way too much bull**** with my own eyes to ever trust a police officer again.
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to ever trust a police officer again.
Like what?
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That cop is a POS...
Hope he enjoys prison.
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I think that cop seriously abused his position of trust. Whatever was he thinking?
I saw a similar incident a few years ago where a cop pulled up a suspect drunk driver. The cop got out his vehicle, which was infront of the suspects, and approached the other vehicle. The suspect vehicle then went to pull away from the cop but the cop pulled his revolver and shot 6 times through the windscreen and killed the suspect. This was all on camera. I think the cop got time for it.
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The runner might just aswell have killed someone speeding over them in high speed chase. Takes a dumb **** to pull over and rocket off for a high speed chase.
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He only drove about 2 feet in his car, if that. He spent most the time just turning the wheel and I don't know why the cop didn't shoot the tyres.
Anyway, the cop was found guilty so he obviously didn't follow 'procedure'.
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Originally posted by Replicant
He only drove about 2 feet in his car, if that. He spent most the time just turning the wheel and I don't know why the cop didn't shoot the tyres.
Anyway, the cop was found guilty so he obviously didn't follow 'procedure'.
Cops don't "shoot at tires"
Well, except in Texas sometimes :D
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Well obviously the cop did wrong there but at least half the guilt is with the driver. (On the stop&run case).
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Originally posted by AWMac
This was NOT a CHP... it was a Deputy... like Barney Fife.
Mac
I don't know how it works in Texas, but my brother is a Sheriff's Deputy in Stanislaus County, California. There is no difference between them and any other police officer other than jurisdiction. In fact, my brother worked for a few police departments before he went to work for the Sheriff.
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Any cop that cant subdue an unarmed man has no buisness wearing the badge.
There was no reason what so ever for that clown to cap the dude3 TIMES!:furious
Could have at the very least fired a warning shot at the ground away from him
to get his attention.
I am getting so sick and tierd of these azzclown cops strong arming the very people that pay there salaries.
Now not to say they dont come across some street trash that needs a swift kick in da butt.
They need to remember there job is to serve and protect not shoot and abuse.
I spent the day yesterday at the gun range and it was full of Plano Tx cops
going thrue training so they can carry AR-15's in there squad cars.
I talked to one officer and he told me that they are getting sniped at by thugs that shoot at em and then run.
Now understand Plano is one of the most wealthy parts of Dallas so for this
to be going on should be a wake up call to people.
The only mistake I can see the young man made was running his yap.
But to be shot for that? I think not.
That cop should spend a few years dodging tubesteaks in the shower:O
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Any cop that cant subdue an unarmed man has no buisness wearing the badge.
There was no reason what so ever for that clown to cap the dude3 TIMES!:furious
Could have at the very least fired a warning shot at the ground away from him
to get his attention.
I am getting so sick and tierd of these azzclown cops strong arming the very people that pay there salaries.
How do you know the suspect was "unarmed"?, because the media told you... right?
The media wasn't there to tell the Deps who was armed and who wasn't, so your notion of the Dep trying to subdue the "unarmed" susp does not apply.
All that matters here is if the Deps reaction at the time he fired was "reasonible" based on what the Deputy knew at the time. What the media knows after the fact means nothing... you think while driving 100+ MPH to catch these a-holes the Deps just knew he was an unarmed neat guy who just wants to help?
If you can tell me how the persuing Deputies could know that, you'll be a very rich man teaching your mind reading technique to cops all across the world.
I mean, wow, you are able to tell me the Susp was unarmed, not even the Deputy knew that... you missed your calling in life bro, you really need your own 900 number.
I havent read the Dep was found guilty of anything, only a court can determine guilt... being placed on administrative leave after a shooting is SOP (Standard Operating proceedure). I was sent home after my 1st OIS, 3 weeks of paid leave.. my badge and duty weapon were taken, blood drawn and I sat home waiting for the phone to ring. Before returning to full duty was a mandatory check-up from the neck up from the Dept head shrink.
You guys, that are interested in this stuff, should read about a Cali police officers "Bill of rights" AKA AB301 rights. IF that Dep is off probation, he has full blown AB301 rights and nothing will be determined while the AB301 process goes on.
Did you know that Dep can flat out refuse to tell his side of the story?, he has rights under the 5th amendment like everyone, BUT he can be ordered to give a statement or face insubordination... and as you well know any statement outside Miranda can't be used against you. The Dep also has the absolute right (per AB301) to have an association rep present during any questioning.
Dancing around the AB301 rules can take months, and its a good thing, it keeps the emotional knee jerk reactionaries in the untrained public who have no clue what proper police proceedure is from rail roading the Dep before all the facts are known. Watching the video is looking at the incident through a straw hole... most of the assumptions you guys have come up with are silly at best.
Warning shots = illegal discharge of a firearm, even for on-duty officers... why?, because what goes up must come down and Depts dont want the liability of a stray round striking someone. Warning shots also invite armed suspects to return fire, your partners to think they're being shot at, and frankly, is a waste of ammo that will get you fired.
Also in So California, Deputy Sheriffs work for the County, Police the city, and CHP (Cant Handle Police-work AAA with a gun) are Calis version of the State police... although technically CHP officers are "Traffic officers", they're tasked to protect the Gov and other state political losers and in many rural areas of the State the CHP is the prominent policing agency.
Sheriffs, Police and CHP are all sworn to the State, must complete the same mandatory POST (Police officer Standards and Training) requirements, and basically have the same police powers... there are some things only the CHP can do, like investigate school bus related collisions... by law the CHP is the only agency authorized to do so.
I still dont have a problem with the shooting, the MP, besides sounding like a punk unprofessional intoxicated a-holio, looked like he suddenly started flailing around as he was talking smack, bad idea when the Sheriffs are pointing weapons at you.
It was obvious the Susp thought since he was cooler and more badass, he could do what he wanted... after a late night chase on the side of some road you lose your coolness because its irrelavent who you are or what you've done. Once you're cuffed, the situation is safe and the Deps ask you for your story, then you can run your lips about how your poop smells like sunshine.
If you do something that felony stupid while cops are pointing guns at you, yeah... you might get shot. If he had laid on the ground, mouth shut following orders, he'd have less lead in his diet.
My one tactical question would still be, why no felony stop?..
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I carefully viewed the video from work and at home. The video is very poorly lit and I couldn't really make out sufficient detail to see everything that was happening. The audio was a little better, but not much. This looks and sounds like it could have been a bad shooting, but I'd be carefull about reaching a definate conclusion yet.
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I have two eyes that still work well and I saw no weapon being pulled or pointed at the officer.
And If I got shot every time I drove at 100mph I would be swiss cheese LOL.
Heres an example when I was 16.5 years old i had not gotten round to getting my license.
Anyways I was riding my dirtbike up a county rd when a Colorado state trooper
started chasing me.
I almost lost him but I crashed:rofl
Did he shoot me? no
Did he even pull his weapon? no
What he did do was call my father and wrote me up on so many tickets I did not get to drive till I was 18:cry
My point is just because someone does something stupid does not IMHO give the cops the right to shoot unless there safety or the publics safety is in danger.
Spike strips for the tires stop the car get the perps on there bellies. So far so good.
Next tell the UNARMED passenger to stand up.
When UNARMED passenger attemps to stand officer opens up point blank on the dude for doin what he was told.
Now am I missing something?
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
My one tactical question would still be, why no felony stop?..
That's what the two officers I talked to today said. At the very least you don't want any of the suspects on their feet without cuffs on. Once you get them prone you wait for backup, or at the very least get the two suspects in a location where you can see them both and then cuff them.
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COP SAYS GET UP GET UP.
SUSPECT SAYS OK I AM GETIING UP
cop bang bang bang
suspect groans several times
cop says shut up or i will shoot you again.
suspect groans again
cop says I said shut up or i will shoot you again.
I have seen a lot of police beating and shootings and I am allmost allways on the cops side. When the police tell you to do something and you dont your gonna get beat down if you have a weapon your going to get shot and guess what you deserve it. This time the suspect was complying and calm this cop need the book thrown at him. He should be in jail not on suspension.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
that cop is going to need lots of lube where he's going!
No kidding. one salamander like that makes an entire force take it up the chute regarding public opinion and community support.
The should put him in the stocks and let the masses throw rotten food at him. Shame him bigtime.
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Originally posted by Hawklore
This guy was just back from Iraq.
He was attempting to calm the man down..
"I'm on your side man, look, I'm in the military, I've been in it longer then you I'm in the military and police officer"
This looks like a lone cop stop, which means, this cop made every decision wrong, put himself in this situation, who knows what the cop was yelling before this video starts, it could be, Get out you ****ing -racial slur-, you Golly-geen -racial slur- get out of the ****ing car or I'll blow your brains out, you never know what he was saying before the video..
If you notice aswell, the videos audio was edited, possibly racial slurs being muted.
Back from Iraq = The Deps had no way of knowing this, the media who told you wasn't there... besides it doesn't matter, makes interesting headlines tho...
Trying to calm "the man" down?, I call that 148PC AND I would have arrested him for not SingTFU. When you get stopped by the police, esp after a chase, you have ZERO business trying to clam anyone down. If you try to take charge and not follow the Deputies orders, gee... you might get shot.
To those Deps mr MP was just another loudmouth refusing to play nice...
Can you tell me that Deputies knew ANY of info the media plugged in to the story?
It looks like a two man stop to me otherwise that Dep would have been on the drivers side, however I have heard that once the susp veh stopped, the MP exited the susp veh via the passenger door despite being ordered to stay seated (1st huge mistake). Once outside, the Susp complied when ordered to lay on the ground, but continued yapping and moving.
If it was a 1 man car, the Dep had no choice but to cover the suspect that had exited the vehicle, while trying to keep an eye on the driver at the same time...
You imagine this, I've been there:
You're chasing a car at 0 dark 30, why?.. did they just do a drive by?, stupid kids?, wanted 2 strike felons?? I don't know. I do know they're running and I'm alone.
Susp veh T/C's, an unplanned stop, I'm still alone on some dark road not knowing if these guys are dangerous... then suddenly the passenger exits despite my orders to "stay in the car hands up" , why?..
I was trained to recognize this as a distraction, still alone not knowing who I have in the susp veh, now I must get in position to see the exited susps hands.. the hands I cant see will get me killed. I have no choice but relocate behind cover if possible to cover the susp outside the veh AND the driver.
Still alone, pumped from driving like hell hoping the sirens from my partners get closer, trying to cover two unknown suspects in the dark, one of them not only exited, but is now shouting BS.... the dis-tractor, still talking she-it while on the ground suddenly flails, makes a move towards his waistband...
I hesitate, I could die... and my #1 objective is to go home, so as trained, 2 to the chest and 1 to the head... on top of running and endangering my life, now one of them is making himself a PIMA.
The next day I get to read all about what a neat unarmed chior boy mister "I'm cooler than you so I dont have to follow your orders" is. Just back from where?, I don't care really, and the media says he was trying to do what!!! "help!?", talking head and not following my lawful orders is helping?
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If he had laid on the ground, mouth shut following orders, he'd have less lead in his diet.
The officer ordered him to get up, the suspect says.....Ok, I'm getting up....BAM BAM BAM. How was he not following orders?
Video is to dark to determine anything conclusive. The audio isnt the best either but is certainly better than the video. I didnt hear a punk talking back to an officer or bad mouthing an officer. I heard someone that appeared to be trying to calm the officer down. Suspect said.....*I'm on your side*.
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Anyone see the Chris Rock video, "how not to get your bellybutton beat by the cops?"
"If a cop tells you to freeze, you freeze. Because, if you run, and the cops have to chase you, they're bringin' an ass-kickin with 'em."
:rofl
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Anyone see the Chris Rock video, "how not to get your bellybutton beat by the cops?"
"If a cop tells you to freeze, you freeze. Because, if you run, and the cops have to chase you, they're bringin' an ass-kickin with 'em."
:rofl
That's a great line!! ROFLMAO
Chris Rock's the best
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I cheer for the cops on COPS too..
But when it comes to shooting puppies with shotguns three times, and beating up an elderly drunk, or shooting a complying suspect, it what deters me from entering the force.
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Man I don't know what is more pathetic. The "cop" shooting an unarmed guy for doing what he is told or the arguments some are posting here trying to defend the cop.
He should have the book thrown at him. He has done more damage to the reputation of police than a hundred Rodney King videos.
Even in Brazil when a local policeman was taped murdering the bank robbery guy (who had a gun and had used it in the bank robbery) the cop was charged and convicted.
This is a very cut and dried case. The cop is guilty. He deserves jail.
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Originally posted by Elfie
The officer ordered him to get up, the suspect says.....Ok, I'm getting up....BAM BAM BAM. How was he not following orders?
Video is to dark to determine anything conclusive. The audio isnt the best either but is certainly better than the video. I didnt hear a punk talking back to an officer or bad mouthing an officer. I heard someone that appeared to be trying to calm the officer down. Suspect said.....*I'm on your side*.
I haven't seen a clear video yet, or one without excessive bleeps, the one subtitled version on ch 5 has the kid yelling "I've spent more time than you..in the police in the **bleep** military. Ok?, you **bleep** believe me, alright"
Right after that the Susp says "I'm gonna get up" tries to stand and is shot.
Hes not responding to the Dep, but telling the Dep he's an experienced military cop so its cool for him to stand up... which it isn't because who he is and what he has to say doesn't matter at that point.
At the same time the susp is yelling, you hear the Dep also saying what sounds like "get up", Ch 5 even did a nice subtitle putting words in the Deps mouth... I've listend to it several times and can't tell you if the Dep is saying "get up" or "dont... get up"...
Cops can be callous, I can easily see that Dep saying "dont...GET UP!" very calm, rather the sandard "freeze", knowing full well judging from the the suspects commentary he's probably going to stand.. and give the Dep a reason to shoot him.
Saying "don't get up" 3x while some suspect is mouthing off about whatever, then tries to stand.. could be a good shooting if the Deps tactics were sound. I'm not sure if the Dep was alone, if there was a cross fire with other officers, lookie-loos in the kill zone.. or some reason that Dep improvised from a felony stop.
It makes no sense to me that Dep would be telling the susp to "get up" as the susp is mouthing off... if thats really that case, plain and simple, that Dep got pissed and shot that kid like a hardcore gangster would do when disrespected... and for that he'll go to prison (likely Club Fed).
OTOH, he tells a suspect "dont get up" 3x in a row, a suspect that has basically told you hes a more experienced cop than you are so hes going to stand wether you like it or not.... yea, he gets shot.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
I haven't seen a clear video yet, or one without excessive bleeps, the one subtitled version on ch 5 has the kid yelling "I've spent more time than you..in the police in the **bleep** military. Ok?, you **bleep** believe me, alright"
Right after that the Susp says "I'm gonna get up" tries to stand and is shot.
Hes not responding to the Dep, but telling the Dep he's an experienced military cop so its cool for him to stand up... which it isn't because who he is and what he has to say doesn't matter at that point.
At the same time the susp is yelling, you hear the Dep also saying what sounds like "get up", Ch 5 even did a nice subtitle putting words in the Deps mouth... I've listend to it several times and can't tell you if the Dep is saying "get up" or "dont... get up"...
Cops can be callous, I can easily see that Dep saying "dont...GET UP!" very calm, rather the sandard "freeze", knowing full well judging from the the suspects commentary he's probably going to stand.. and give the Dep a reason to shoot him.
Saying "don't get up" 3x while some suspect is mouthing off about whatever, then tries to stand.. could be a good shooting if the Deps tactics were sound. I'm not sure if the Dep was alone, if there was a cross fire with other officers, lookie-loos in the kill zone.. or some reason that Dep improvised from a felony stop.
It makes no sense to me that Dep would be telling the susp to "get up" as the susp is mouthing off... if thats really that case, plain and simple, that Dep got pissed and shot that kid like a hardcore gangster would do when disrespected... and for that he'll go to prison (likely Club Fed).
OTOH, he tells a suspect "dont get up" 3x in a row, a suspect that has basically told you hes a more experienced cop than you are so hes going to stand wether you like it or not.... yea, he gets shot.
LOL I cant believe some people .
Do you need a hearing aid?
I clearly herd the cop saying get up get up.
Try if you can to be objective and not such a cop fanboy.
And before you rant about me being anto cop I will tell you that I have two friends that are detectives in there depts.
One in Arlington Tx and the other for Dallas Pd.
And they said in there opinions the cop screwed up.
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This is the only version I have seen, just before the suspect says ok, I'm getting up, it sounds like the deputy told him to get up.
It makes no sense to me that Dep would be telling the susp to "get up" as the susp is mouthing off... if thats really that case, plain and simple, that Dep got pissed and shot that kid like a hardcore gangster would do when disrespected... and for that he'll go to prison
I suspect that might be the case. Would take a very callous individual imo to first shoot someone twice, then tell them to shut up when they start screamin/groaning from the pain.
That cop might need to go to the firing range for some remedial training on hitting point-blank targets. He fires 3 times and misses once. Maybe Lazs can give him some tips :)
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That cop is lucky the MP is still alive. If he was dead I'd fully expect him to get lynched.
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Why not use the Tazer. If that had been deployed then this would probably have not made the local news.
Not sure if every officer has one, but it seems that a less than lethal force could have been used to subdue the suspect.
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Originally posted by kevykev56
Why not use the Tazer. If that had been deployed then this would probably have not made the local news.
Not sure if every officer has one, but it seems that a less than lethal force could have been used to subdue the suspect.
At least around here i know that you having to be willing to get tazed before you are alowed to be issued one. So it is still a small % of the dept that will carry one.
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I think (when enhanced) you will find that the Officer says repeatedly "Don't get up"...... Its common practice to keep the suspects prone while you wait for back up. The Officer is obviously jacked up on adrenaline and appeared out of breath. But, if he orders him to stand up ...he is breaking tactics and then the escalation of force is caused by him. If thats the case, he will be held held accountable on a civil level. If he ordered him to stand and then just shot him without any provacation, then he will be tried as a criminal. I don't think that was the case.
Anyone who has spent anytime on the street knows that if he gets up, you lose you posistion of dominance. With multiple suspects, if you are distracted by one then the second suspect now has tactical advantage and you could find yourself in a world of hurt. These suspects had not been searched by the Officer. The Officer doesn't know if they just robbed a store, did a drive by shooting, or if they were just trying to get to the hospital because his mother had a heart attack. They have to be considered armed.
Also, a non-compliant suspect who keeps telling you he is on your side should raise all kinds of red flags in an Officers mind. I'll refer the the Trooper Coats shooting in Carolina for reference. Coates got killed by, what on tape appeared to be, the nicest guy in the world.
As for backing away.... its always the safest move to go to cover. Howver, when you lose proximinty to the suspect, then the suspects run (and belive me...bad guys know you can't shoot them for running) and another chase ensues. Again, the Officer is at a total tactical disadvantage in a foot pursuit. I came around a corner in a foot pursuit once to find a suspect facing me who was pulling a gun out of the pocket of his jacket. Lucky for me ...and him. . . he was just trying to throw it in the bushes. I had taken about 4 pounds of pressure off a five pound trigger pull. Some how, I didn't shoot or I would have shot a 15 year old who was just trying to ditch a gun. I would have had to live with that. On the other hand, If he was trying to engage me... It would have been a straight up gun fight from 15 feet ..and I might not live thought that! Try making that decision is an 8th of a second. Again, he had tactical advantage and I had to react. Action is always faster than reaction.
Try to imagine dealing with the Monday morning quarterbacking while everyone says what they would have done. Imagine trying to keep your family together while the press drags you good name through the mud. I have seen too many good men, good public servants, torn apart by the meda, who were later cleared without exception. I guess I have a biased opinion here. I know there are bad cops out there... but not as many as TV would lead you to believe.
As for the rounds hitting the suspect.. most Officers in shootings have a 18% hit rate...even with all the training we do.
As for tasers...(here In NJ the are illegal for police to use) they only are capable of firing at one suspect. I believe the Officer was dealing with multiple suspects and you have to fire a tazer with your strong (weapon) hand. That leaves you vulnerable to the second suspect...who again HAD NOT BEEN SEARCHED.
Sorry for the rant. . . . I hope it gives some insight. <>
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I've listened to his commands with my speakers as loud as they can be and he clearly says "get up" "get up" so fast that there is no way he could have had "don't" in there.
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I can say "Don't get up!" pretty quickly, and I'm not hopped up on adrenaline and holding a firearm.
*shrug*
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Never mind the suspect and a witness can both be heard to say "you said to get up"
BTW , theres a better video over at glocktalk in the cops forum
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Originally posted by texace
I can say "Don't get up!" pretty quickly, and I'm not hopped up on adrenaline and holding a firearm.
*shrug*
Why not say "Stay Down?"
I've seen a LOT of COPS and never heard one utter a "don't get up" command.
Ever.
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I can understand why he didn't use a tazer. The Tazer is only effective against one person. There are two people there.
Had there been more cops, they could have used a tazer.
But that doesn't excuse what he did.
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Ice Cube had it right. (http://tinylink.com/?xghLtg3htI)
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Originally posted by Pooh21
Could you plug him, without going to jail, or do you sit back and let him murder everyone in the place?
I would jump off the counter and deliver a flying crecent kick to his head. Then when everyone is gaping in awe, I would put on some shades, light up a smoke and leave without a word in gust of cool.
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Right Thrawn...
You're like everyone else, 50 lbs overweight and a chainsmoker caffein addict. You'd jump off the counter and land on your fat butt 4 ft short of your target, and die whimpering like everyone else.
:)
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No.
:cool: <= Me.
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Here's a link to another copy of the video, sound quality is a bit better in this one. Can clearly hear the officer telling his suspect to get up.
http://www.ktvu.com/video/6717911/detail.html
Saw another copy of that vid (extended version ;) ) where someone says....You told him to get up!
This one looks bad for that officer, no matter how some are trying to spin this.
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I hope the ones trying to spin it in favor of the pig, arent piggys themselves.
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Nice..... real nice... I guess you judge every one's character by their choosen profession. I guess you also base your character judgements on skin color, a person's sex or some other of your xenophobic hangups. Were you born a bigot or are you a self starter?
First .... No one is trying to spin anything.... If you look at the posts by some of the police in here, we all said, "If he says "get up" ...he is breaking every rule in the book and he is the CAUSE of the escalation.
Who solves all cases of police corruption and abuse of authority? Other Police, thats who. The incident will be investigated and the Officer in question will have to answer for his actions.
I am not ready to jump to conclusions or make judgement until I have all the facts.
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All I know is, that poor man is gonna own San Bernardino County when this is over.
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Originally posted by Colt44
snip
As for the rounds hitting the suspect.. most Officers in shootings have a 18% hit rate...even with all the training we do.
Yeah, what's up with that? Years ago there was only one gun range here, where I spent quite a bit of time shooting as did many of the local yokels and G-men (no disrespect there, I count more than a few of these guys as friends).
My observation was that the ones who could shoot worth a damn were the exception rather than the rule, even though they all shot a lot. Go figure.
culero
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Culero,
No matter how good the shooter, everything changes when when the shooter percieves a threat.
Most Police never use their weapons and never want too. Thus they just don't get to the range more then to qualify. Qualifications in most department's are held no more than four times a year and they need a score of 80% accuracy from no more than 25 yards. Not too hard really. As a result, most police put less that 600 rounds a year through their weapons. Not nearly enough.
Federal Air Marshall's that I have trained with put some 30,000 rounds a year through their guns and they are excellent gun fighters. But its not just due to target shooting. They have participated in Simunition training ( - 8mm paint bullets that travel in excess on 600 ft per sec, and hurt like a sob) for years prior to the 911 buildup. Police Department's are seeing the value in this realistic "shoot/ don't shoot" training and utlizing this more and more.
It is found that there is a distinct difference in the mind set and the body kineisology when someone is shooting at targets and when someone is a percieved threat or is actually shooting back. When the fight or flight instinct kicks in, the person will lower his center of gravity more and take a more aggressive stance. This postural distubance throws their accuracy way off. In stress of the incident causes tunnel vision (even in training) procluding any type of sight picture allignment. Having rarely, if ever, being exposed to this stress the shooter also tries to hurry the shot, missing 8 out of 10. Those that hit, usually hit the weapon or weapon hand as that is what the shooter is focused on not the center of mass.
This can be corrected with training and the use of instinctive shooting techniques.
Hope this helps...
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Originally posted by Colt44
blah blah blah.
w00t I am a bigot
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Originally posted by Colt44
snip
This can be corrected with training and the use of instinctive shooting techniques.
Hope this helps...
Heh...sorry to have caused you to type all that :) We're on the same page here, as this is a subject of great personal interest to me and I subscribe to exactly the same understanding you've expressed.
My question was spefically, however, referring to my surprise that most badges I've seen can't even shoot targets well.
culero
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100% correct bruddah.... no argument here
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Immediately they are trying to discredit the man who shot the video:
Man Who Taped Airman Shooting Arrested
By GREG RISLING
The Associated Press
Saturday, February 4, 2006; 12:16 AM
SAN BERNARDINO, Calif. -- A man who videotaped a sheriff's deputy shooting an unarmed Air Force security officer was arrested Friday for an alleged assault in Florida, officials said.
Jose Luis Valdes was taken into custody by Pomona police on a warrant for aggravated assault with a firearm from Miami-Dade County, Fla. The warrant came up during a routine background check when Valdes went to an immigration office, police said.
Mariela Carrion, left, wife of Air Force policeman Elio Carrion who was shot by a San Bernardino County sheriff's deputy at the end of a brief car chase on Sunday, arrives with her mother Maria Paz for a family news conference Friday, Feb. 3, 2006, outside the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department in San Bernardino, Calif. An amateur video shows officer Ivory Webb shooting Carrion, although he seems to be cooperating. The FBI has opened an inquiry into possible civil rights violations, and the Sheriff's Department is conducting its own probe. (AP Photo/Nick Ut)
Mariela Carrion, left, wife of Air Force policeman Elio Carrion who was shot by a San Bernardino County sheriff's deputy at the end of a brief car chase on Sunday, arrives with her mother Maria Paz for a family news conference Friday, Feb. 3, 2006, outside the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department in San Bernardino, Calif. An amateur video shows officer Ivory Webb shooting Carrion, although he seems to be cooperating. The FBI has opened an inquiry into possible civil rights violations, and the Sheriff's Department is conducting its own probe. (AP Photo/Nick Ut) (Nick Ut - AP)
Valdes, contacted by cell phone, confirmed he had been arrested but said the only problem he had in Miami was an arrest for driving under the influence. He did not elaborate about that arrest, but said authorities wanted to send him back to Florida within 24 hours.
"They want to get me out of California as soon as possible," Valdes said in Spanish. "They say I was involved in gunfire in Miami."
The airman's shooting happened in Chino, about 40 miles east of Los Angeles. Elio Carrion was a passenger in a Corvette that was involved in a brief high-speed chase and crashed into a wall, authorities said.
Valdes' tape showed Carrion on the ground talking with San Bernardino County sheriff's Deputy Ivory J. Webb, who stood pointing a gun at him. A recorded voice appeared to be commanding Carrion to "get up." As Carrion began to rise, the deputy fired three shots into him.
Carrion, 21, who recently returned from Iraq, was shot three times and was hospitalized in good condition.
Webb, 45, who has more than 10 years with the department, was placed on paid administrative leave.
The FBI has opened a civil rights investigation of the shooting but Carrion's family said Friday that more must be done. Members gathered outside sheriff's headquarters and demanded the deputy's arrest.
"My family is outraged because this person hasn't been arrested and is on paid vacation," Carrion's wife, Mariela, said at a news conference.
I say **** em. I was willing to wait out the investigation, but I demand the death penalty now for the Police Officer.
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Cool yer jets, hot shot. No one's dead yet...
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Hmmm I fell bad now for offending the hard working law enforcement professionals of this country. I am a bigot.
but to make all our little piggy,err law enforcement professionals feel better
gimme a
"Sieg Heil!"
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New reports say that the Policeman was saying Shutup not getup...
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I am around dozens of cops a year while they are practicing (qualifying) ...
Most are just horrible shots. They seem somewhat frieghtened of their own weapons yet somehow careless. I know the trainers and they all act pretty disgusted with the recruits they get and the level of firearms expertise.
It was not allways so. In the day of the revolver and the 6'+ tall male policeman and billy club.... them cops could shoot... one who couldn't was laughed at. The San Leandro police pistol team used to shoot at a range I shot at and when the rangemaster and some other shooters said that I was probley better than them... boy.... did we have some good shooting matches... those guys were good.... that was in the day of the .357 mag revolver and the 1.7 shot average gunfight.
I believe that training is a big help but I think that it takes a sort of deliberate will to win a gunfight or... as with colt 44.... to not shoot when it is not needed but be willing to at a fraction of a seconds notice.
I don't think affirmative action and getting rid of nightsticks is the right answer.
lazs
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Ok...let me get this straight laser...
The police are inept, unprofessional and can't do anything right....yet they are now involved in a beautifully masterminded, massive interagency conspiracy involing San Bernadino Sheriffs Office, the Pomona Police, the FBI and the Miami Dade Florida Police department to discredit the video taker in order to protect one deputy sheriff from bumblebutt California?
Yo bruddah, In a shooting investigation all persons involved are investigated so that when it goes to trial the defense attorney doesn't tear up the witness's credibility. That includes if the Officer is charged!
If that warrant information was to fall into the defense teams hands and the Video tapers background had not been checked, they would bring it up to tear up the wintess's credibility either just before the trial or at the trial. Remember Jury's are fickle and public opinion changes. The Officer might walk.
Of course then you would say that it was a massive conspiracy to get the Officer off and that the Police should have done a more thorough investigation before going to trail.
Ya can't have it both ways... were either brilliant or stupid...or maybe, just maybe, the police just are just trying to do the right thing here.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
That cop is a POS...
Hope he enjoys prison.
Hang him by his balls in a court yard and allow citizens to piss on his face.
Prison is too good for this scum bag. *******s like this are why cops have a generally bad rep.
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Conspiracies are usually things that are kept hidden. It is very clear what these people are doing and they should rot in hell for doing it.
The guy held a video camera. His past isn't up for judgement unless he was a video editor.
The police are inept, unprofessional and can't do anything right....
But, umm...
YES
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That's easy for you to say, chief. You don't put the badge and gun belt on every day, nor are your actions up for the public to "Monday morning quarterback" to death each and every day.
Don't let the actions of one California cop affirm your beliefs about police officers the nation over. To do so would be narrow-minded.
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Originally posted by Silat
New reports say that the Policeman was saying Shutup not getup...
But the media was kind enough to add a "get up" subtitle, so it must be true.
Lets try some critical thinking: Who put those letters on that video? some media guy in a truck trying like hell to get that "exclusive" video on the air?, s/he thinks the Dep is saying "get up", so it's one persons opinion... that can influence millions.
Maybe it was the person who shot the video, did he upload it to a computer and edit it himself?
Watch it again and again, the MP is basically saying he's a cop, hes cool and he's going to get up... hes trying to take charge, but hes nothing more than an everyday nobody special suspect who has zero say in what goes on.
I cant clearly hear the Dep, but based on every bit of training I've had, which is the same as SBSO, "shut up" makes perfect sense while holding a semi prone mouthy suspect at gunpoint...."get up" makes no sense.
What would YOU (naysayers) do?, holding someone you just chased at gunpoint who tells you hes a cop and going to get up, then he gets up?
If you fight him, the driver can easily jump on your back, put you gun away the driver can cap you.. you had better be thinking these things and more, like who is in your kill zone, is there a cross fire, did the suspects crash near home and are his homies taking aim at your back?
You guys have all day to think about it without the benefit of being trained, fighting the MP sounds easy... until you realize there are 2 of them and 1 of you.. and if a Deputy sheriff loses a fight, just one, he dies.
The facts will come out, apparently they were in a residential area of Chino and I'm sure plenty of eye and ear witnesses will shed light on what was actually said.
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I think there has been a lot of hysterics in the replies to this one, and I will stay out of most of them, but XMarineX, I would like to ask, and im not being a smarta**, I work with cops in my civilian job and I have a lot of respect for them (Canadian and US ones both), but here is my Q:
Regarding a suspect who is "resisting". I understand that the police have to arrest the perp, I mean, he was in a car involved in a chase, so hey, fair game, the guy is arrestable, but, you seem to paint the picture as if just because the perp is "resisting/being non compliant" (if he was) that lethal force is justified. My understanding is that lethal force is only justified to defend either yourself or the public from imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death. Ex. They guy has a weapon, or he is doing something that will cause serious injury to the Deputy (like say running him down with a car, ect).
To shoot simply because he is being uncooperative seems to be a huge jump in force level does it not? Tazer, baton, pepper spray or open hand would be considered appropriate for an unarmed man, in almost all situations like that, I think. To be shot for not being compliant in a pursuit arrest seems a bit heavy handed. Deputy says dont get up, he gets up, and at that point you open fire? Im not sure about that, unless there was something else that raises the threat level which we dont see in the vid.
I will finish by saying, after viewing the vid several times, its too poor quality to really know what happened. The sound is poor, and its dark, and I would wait to see what the investigators come up with. I wasn't there, and Im not pretending that I was.
Regards.
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As I have already stated in this thread Texace, my faith in police was gone way before this ever happened.
And also, as I have said, the use of a Tazer would not have made sense. I explained why, I don't feel like repeating myself for the 50th time.
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Traffic stop go wrong, mate? ;)
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But the media was kind enough to add a "get up" subtitle, so it must be true.
I've seen the vids, and I have seen what appears to be an enhanced version of that video. I've listened to the sound while not watching the video. That officer DOES appear to be saying get up. If the officer didnt say get up, why does someone near the end of that vid tell the officer after the shooting....*You told him to get up!*?
Once the forensics analysis of that video is done we will know for sure what was said.
Watch it again and again, the MP is basically saying he's a cop, hes cool and he's going to get up... hes trying to take charge, but hes nothing more than an everyday nobody special suspect who has zero say in what goes on.
This falls right into line with what LEO's are implying (some saying outright) over at glocktalk.com in the Cops forum, that MP's arent Police. They are police, they do have law enforcement duties along with security duties.
If you actually listened to the sound in that video you can clearly hear the officer say....get up, get up, suspect says ok, I'm getting up, shots fired.
Most of the LEO's over at glocktalk say that from this vid, it looks real bad for the officer doing the shooting, for numerous reasons.
It only takes ONE bad cop to make a person suspect every cop for the rest of their lives. I have been unfortunate enough to run into several bad cops in my lifetime.
I was pulled over in Seattle one time in the wee hours of the morning by a Washington St. Trooper. For 15 minutes I had a gun pointed at my head while the officer used every curse word in the book at me. I complied with everything he asked me to do, I was polite and courteous until it became painfully obvious that this particular cop was enjoying being a jerk. At that point I told him to either shoot me or put the gun away. Then I told him to either arrest me and charge me with a crime, or to hand me back my registration, military id card and proof of insurance and let me go. This particular cop never even went back to his cruiser to have my license checked.
This particular cop didnt calm down until he saw me write down his badge number and name. He asked me why I was doing that and I told him I was going to file a formal complaint against him for his abusive attitude and language. That officer had no buisiness yelling and screaming at me like he did, nor did he have cause to pull his gun.
He pulled me over for doing 90mph over the Bridge of the Narrows (name?). He admitted to NOT having radar or any other means to clock my speed. Understand this.....the vehicle I was driving was a 68 Chevy 3/4 ton pickup with a 307 V8, 3 speed manual transmission and 4:56 gears in the rear end. At 75mph the engine would start to backfire and was wound up so tight it sounded like it was about to throw a rod. That was after I rebuilt the engine. Before I rebuilt the engine it was so worn that the trucks top speed was 62mph.....unless I was going downhill, then I could get a bit more speed heh. This incident took place about 8 months before the engine overhaul and according to my speedometer I was doing 40mph across that bridge. I understand that my speedometer could have been *off*, but I seriously doubt that it was off by 50mph or by any significant amount since that was the ONLY time I was ever pulled over for *speeding* in that vehicle and I owned that truck for about 5 years.
*edit for spelling*
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I have never once been on the wrong side of the law.
Except for all the underage drinking, but the reason I hate police isn't because of this (though I never did get caught :aok ).
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The cop didn't say "Simon says.." , end of discussion.
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Its been an enlightening thread gentlemen. Its always good to get a different perspective.
I see that some people here have had bad experiences with L.E.O's and I can say I have had my share too. But, to condem every one as part of a whole and to have that kind of venom against a particular group (any group) because of the actions of a few. . . well... I just don't get it...... just not in my nature I guess.
We will have to wait to see what the investigation will bring. May the verdict be just....whatever it is.
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Originally posted by Squire
I think there has been a lot of hysterics in the replies to this one, and I will stay out of most of them, but XMarineX, I would like to ask, and im not being a smarta**, I work with cops in my civilian job and I have a lot of respect for them (Canadian and US ones both), but here is my Q:
Regarding a suspect who is "resisting". I understand that the police have to arrest the perp, I mean, he was in a car involved in a chase, so hey, fair game, the guy is arrestable, but, you seem to paint the picture as if just because the perp is "resisting/being non compliant" (if he was) that lethal force is justified. My understanding is that lethal force is only justified to defend either yourself or the public from imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death. Ex. They guy has a weapon, or he is doing something that will cause serious injury to the Deputy (like say running him down with a car, ect).
To shoot simply because he is being uncooperative seems to be a huge jump in force level does it not? Tazer, baton, pepper spray or open hand would be considered appropriate for an unarmed man, in almost all situations like that, I think. To be shot for not being compliant in a pursuit arrest seems a bit heavy handed. Deputy says dont get up, he gets up, and at that point you open fire? Im not sure about that, unless there was something else that raises the threat level which we dont see in the vid.
I will finish by saying, after viewing the vid several times, its too poor quality to really know what happened. The sound is poor, and its dark, and I would wait to see what the investigators come up with. I wasn't there, and Im not pretending that I was.
Regards.
That Deputy holsters his gun and starts swinging a baton, who is going to watch the drivers hands?... and or stop him from turning it into a 2 vs 1 fight, producing a weapon and all that?
Deadly force is always, even for civilians, used to "stop" a threat, you have 2 suspects, unknown if armed, they just ran 100+MPH and you have no idea if they're wanted felons, or just a couple punkass pukes... one of them ignores your order to stay in the car, gets out, starts talking head, youre alone, then the mouthy one says hes getting up.
All your training and experience tells you if he gets up, you now have 2 unknown suspects in position to do you harm... so you use force to stop the one suspect.
It goes way beyond just not being compliant, by doing so the MP put the Deps safety, and his own, at risk. One of the FIRST things my training officer taught me was how to act when pulled over; hands on the wheel, mouth shut, "I'm an off duty 830 my weapon is in the car".... where was mr MPs professionalism?.. it would have kept him from being shot.
And how do you know they were unarmed? the media told you, right?.. was the media there to inform the Deputy of this fact?, no, theres no way the Dep could have known if they were armed or not.
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He fires 3 shots into the BACK of an unarmed man who was attempting to comply with his requests. Whether the cop said 'shut up' or not is irrelevant, what is relevant is that the camera heard 'get up', the witnesses heard 'get up', and the suspect (now victim) heard 'get up'. In fact the suspect barely lifts himself up when the cop unloads at him, its blatantly clear the cop was way premature in his judgement, so far so calling it second guessing is pure BS.
Give it up x0847Marine, you're only looking sillier by the moment trying to justify these actions.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
He fires 3 shots into the BACK of an unarmed man who was attempting to comply with his requests. Whether the cop said 'shut up' or not is irrelevant, what is relevant is that the camera heard 'get up', the witnesses heard 'get up', and the suspect (now victim) heard 'get up'. In fact the suspect barely lifts himself up when the cop unloads at him, its blatantly clear the cop was way premature in his judgement, so far so calling it second guessing is pure BS.
Give it up x0847Marine, you're only looking sillier by the moment trying to justify these actions.
Assumptions, at best.... you don't know what the Deputy said and someone who "barely" gets up is more of a risk that you can grasp, esp to a lone cop holding 2 suspects at gunpoint.
Looks to me like a lone deputy trying to control 2 unknown if armed suspects who just tried to flee, one of them was definately COC.... oh well, stuff happens when you decide to endanger a cops life by driving like an a-hole THEN acting like one.
What would you have done? and please articulate how you would have known if they were armed?... turn on ch 5 in your patrol car? or would you just assume the MP was telling the truth, assume neither were armed, assume they were cool and running for no reason, assume if you let mr MP stand you wont get jumped by both... each assumption puts your life at risk.
I'll never forget Lazer village, we has a bunch of Monday AM QB's & media types watch us, then try themselves... lmao, the civilians shot everyone dead, mostly innocents in the line of fire.
One female reporter cold capped the kid armed with a loaded Bomb Pop ice cream, when I started to grill her on "why did you shoot an unarmed kid?? ", she started to cry... I laughed in her face and was called a big meanie.
That experience along with my own shootings drove home the fact that the majority of civilians have no clue about police training or tactics and offer solutions that are absurd.
So please, tell me what you would have done... be sure it complies with Department SBSO policy, POST training and Cali law.
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My own amature take on the video after watching it on TV, backing it up, and turning the volume on my surround sound systems WAY up.
The driver was still in the vehicle after the stop had been made. The MP gotten out of the car and went back to talk with the deputy. To explain that he was an MP and the was on the deputy's side. The deputy forced him to the ground and told him not to move. The MP starts saying "I'm on your ****ing side!" While sitting, he leans forward and makes a motion to get up and says "OK, I'm going to get up." This is what the family's attorney said this morning on the Today show.
Now, with the volume up extremely loud (as loud as a movie theater or better), I can hear the deputy saying "Don't get get! Don't get up!" The MP begins to stand and the deputy shoots him.
The caption by the news is "Get up!" but I, as well as my brother, mother, and Scottish friend heard him say "Don't get up!." It's hard to be conclusive because of the quality of the video, but that's what I can hear.
The family's attorney leaves a lot to be desired, though.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
Assumptions, at best.... you don't know what the Deputy said and someone who "barely" gets up is more of a risk that you can grasp, esp to a lone cop holding 2 suspects at gunpoint.
I dont know this guy seems to have some stones.
http://www.wimp.com/mexicanarrest/
doesnt even pull the gun until the old guy pulls a shovel
he doesnt even shoot when the geezer goes for the drivers door.
I am sure a few departments have one or two like this guy, who dont go home everynight and fondle SS runes
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Originally posted by texace
Now, with the volume up extremely loud (as loud as a movie theater or better), I can hear the deputy saying "Don't get get! Don't get up!" The MP begins to stand and the deputy shoots him.
I really don't hear the don't. I hear "I'm in the military okay" "okay get up." "I just" "okay get up. get up."
-SW
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Goldwin's Law has been invoked! I was wondering how long that would take.
I can only go on what I hear. I can hear the deputy saying "Don't get up" when the MP makes a move to stand. From the speech pattern, it also sounded like the MP said "I'm on your ****ing side, ok? I'm getting up." as one sentence.
Traffic noise make it hard to determine exactly, but it's what I can hear. Remember, they were involved in a high-speed chase and once the car was stopped, the MP got out and approached the deputy to, as the family lawyer said, "inform the deputy that he was a military police officer...that he was on his side."
I'm not pointing fingers or taking sides...just making observations. What we need is the dash cam footage and the recordings from the deputy's microphone, if he had one.
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Godwin's law is about comparing something to Nazis. I don't see anyone that did that. I turned up the volume loud enough for everyone in the office to hear it, if he said don't, he whispered it.
-SW
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The SS rune comparison a few posts up is where I called it. :)
It's not clear, but it's there. There is definatly something said before "get up" and it's certainly not "okay."
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Ah I see it. We'll find out more as this tape will be analysed ad nauseum. I just hope someone posts the outcome so we all know for sure. I'd certainly like to know.
-SW
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Same on this end. ;)
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My post was more of a generalised response to some of the replies regarding use of force scenarios, do I know he wasnt armed? nope. I dont. In any case I guess the investigators will determine what happened.
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Now, with the volume up extremely loud (as loud as a movie theater or better), I can hear the deputy saying "Don't get get! Don't get up!" The MP begins to stand and the deputy shoots him.
There is one point where I can hear the deputy say dont get up. Just prior to the MP saying Ok, I'm getting up isnt it. The deputy says it just before the MP says that he is an MP and is on the deputy's side. Just before the MP says Ok, I'm getting up, all I can hear is get up, get up, cant hear *dont* and in fact there doesnt appear to be enough time for the word *dont* to be inbetween them.
I too turned the volume way up (woke up one of my kids doing it). I also listened to the video with my eyes closed several times so I wouldnt be distracted by what I was seeing.
oh well, stuff happens when you decide to endanger a cops life by driving like an a-hole THEN acting like one.
Except the shootee wasnt the driver. The shootee was a passenger. The driver didnt just endanger the cops life by driving like an idiot, he also endangered the life of his passenger and that of any residents that happened to be out and about that night also. Btw, the driver has yet to be charged with a crime as far as I can tell.
"I'm an off duty 830 my weapon is in the car".... where was mr MPs professionalism?.. it would have kept him from being shot.
In the video the MP clearly attempts to ID himself as a AF LEO. From later reports the MP got out of the vehicle and approached the deputy attempting to ID himself. I concede that some of the things the MP said werent necessary (Like....look, I've served *expletive* longer than you have), that just wasnt necessary. Otoh it didnt warrant the officer shooting him for it either. It also doesnt constitute non-compliance either, at least imo ;)
Where was the deputy's professionalism? Telling suspects to stfu isnt exactly professional in my book. Also, why would the deputy tell the suspects *dont get up* when *stay down* would be more appropriate since it would be impossible to misinterpret. (LEO's on glocktalk.com have brought this up and said it's part of their training in which commands to use and which NOT to use, negative commands ie commands with dont in them shouldnt be used, commands should be clear with no room for misinterpretation).
If the deputy fired because he perceived a weapon threat, why no move to secure a perceived threat after the shots were fired? If he suspected a weapon one would expect the officer to secure it for the safety of himself, the suspects and innocent bystanders. Instead the officer LOWERS his weapon and just stands there telling the suspects to stfu.
We'll find out more as this tape will be analysed ad nauseum. I just hope someone posts the outcome so we all know for sure. I'd certainly like to know.
Ditto.
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Here is an update, the cop is getting charged with attempted manslaughter..
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060307/ts_nm/crime_shooting_dc
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It would seem to be even worse than we 1st thought. This is the 1st time a cop in SB County has ever been charged with a crime for an on-duty shooting.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
It would seem to be even worse than we 1st thought. This is the 1st time a cop in SB County has ever been charged with a crime for an on-duty shooting.
Awww...too bad..I bet he'll be real popular in prison
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I don't get it. How the hell can you have "attempted manslaughter"?
The cop attempted to kill him by accident? WTF? :huh
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Originally posted by midnight Target
It would seem to be even worse than we 1st thought. This is the 1st time a cop in SB County has ever been charged with a crime for an on-duty shooting.
Can you explain this? I don't understand what you are commenting on here.
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Just saying that it may be more than just negligence or stupidity on the part of the cop. The investigators think it is a criminal offense.
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OK, I understsand now what you meant, thanks.
As far as a criminal situation is concerned, yep I imagine that it would be. Very little justification for the use of deadly force at that time in that situation. Pepper spray would have been a far better choice. Then again maintaining a sense of professionalism and conduct would have been better too.
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The article says "Attempted Murder" not manslaughter.
The deputy will not be charged with attempted murder. Prosecutors concluded that Webb acted in fear for his safety but that his fear was unreasonable, Ramos said.
PS
I think this is appropraite based on the evidence. Give him his day in court and let the jury decide. <<<-------that's alot more than he wanted to give the victom.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
But the media was kind enough to add a "get up" subtitle, so it must be true.
Lets try some critical thinking: Who put those letters on that video? some media guy in a truck trying like hell to get that "exclusive" video on the air?, s/he thinks the Dep is saying "get up", so it's one persons opinion... that can influence millions.
Maybe it was the person who shot the video, did he upload it to a computer and edit it himself?
Watch it again and again, the MP is basically saying he's a cop, hes cool and he's going to get up... hes trying to take charge, but hes nothing more than an everyday nobody special suspect who has zero say in what goes on.
I cant clearly hear the Dep, but based on every bit of training I've had, which is the same as SBSO, "shut up" makes perfect sense while holding a semi prone mouthy suspect at gunpoint...."get up" makes no sense.
What would YOU (naysayers) do?, holding someone you just chased at gunpoint who tells you hes a cop and going to get up, then he gets up?
If you fight him, the driver can easily jump on your back, put you gun away the driver can cap you.. you had better be thinking these things and more, like who is in your kill zone, is there a cross fire, did the suspects crash near home and are his homies taking aim at your back?
You guys have all day to think about it without the benefit of being trained, fighting the MP sounds easy... until you realize there are 2 of them and 1 of you.. and if a Deputy sheriff loses a fight, just one, he dies.
The facts will come out, apparently they were in a residential area of Chino and I'm sure plenty of eye and ear witnesses will shed light on what was actually said.
When you unholster a weapon, the ONLY intent is to SHOOT, anything else and you are asking for trouble. I know so many damn Police, State Troopers, on up to the FBI and Secret Service.
What this "cowboy" did, should be at the MINIMUM 20 years. He did NOT say "Shut up", he said "GET UP". As for him calling Racial slurs while "on an adrenaline rush", that is even classier. I guess in a way, the Officer needed the suspect to rise, so he WOULDN'T miss. This is pure and simple the result of "Someone who wasn't paying attention to the training he was given".
This is an UNJUSTIFYABLE shooting. No justification, whatsoever. IE, he's f**ked, and deserves to be in Prison, not JAIL (Misdemeanor), but "pound in the a** prison."
"Validity". Back in 1992, I worked with a buddy who had a 1989 Notchback Mustang that he raced with. I was the passenger in the vehicle. He had 2 Local PD cars, 3 Sheriff cars on his six, while he was doing 150. I was calmly asking "What the f**k are you doing?". My neighbor growing up is currently the Assistant Chief of a local PD. He finally got caught in a residential area.
The Sheriff Deputies beat the leaving s**t out of my buddy, the Local Police officers came to my side. The windows were down, I had my hands up and very slowly reached the handle on the outside of the door, and got out, and sat down. One wanted to cuff, and I said "Go ahead. I've done nothing wrong, I've done everything to make your job easier because (mentioned my neighbor)" One pulled me into the squad car and asked "How I got mixed up in this?" (clean record). I told him "he WAS a friend, no longer is he." They were still kicking the watermelon out of him, when I had the one officer drive me home. I even gave him $20 for dinner (not a bribe, his wallet was empty, as he was saying "it seemed like it was a Pizza night". I told him "Fair enough, you drove me about 20 miles, a cab would have been more expensive."
I've discussed today in LENGTH, with my buddies (PD - Secret Service). They all agree on an Attempted Murder Charge. The Deputy f**ked up, and he should pay for it with Prison time.
Karaya
PS - I find it amusing that some in here, are "trying their damnest to defend this POS." Why? The sad fact is, The County this jack*** WORKED in, is tarnished.
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The article says "Attempted Murder" not manslaughter.
No it doesn't
A California sheriff's deputy, whose videotaped shooting of an unarmed Iraq war veteran caused a nationwide furor, will be charged with attempted manslaughter, authorities said on Tuesday.
Read your quote again...
Actually, I will help you...
The deputy will not be charged with attempted murder. Prosecutors concluded that Webb acted in fear for his safety but that his fear was unreasonable, Ramos said.
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I still hear "don't get up."
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apparently the FBI does not agree with you Tex...
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OOOPS,
I've been moving and packing for the last two days for our cross country move. My wits just aren't up to par today. Thanks for the correction.
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Originally posted by texace
I still hear "don't get up."
and some defend the guilty .
Karaya
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I'm not defending anyone. I'm pointing out an observation, just like last time.
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Originally posted by texace
I'm not defending anyone. I'm pointing out an observation, just like last time.
Your observation is delusional. FBI would NOT be involved, unless otherwise.
Karaya
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Huh? I never mentioned the FBI...
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Originally posted by texace
Huh? I never mentioned the FBI...
FBI is now investigating this case. Never said you did mention it either.
Karaya
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Why don't you guys just wait for the trial. It'll save bandwidth over you two just baiting each other.
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...jesus Mav, where's the fun in that? :confused: