Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: wrag on February 03, 2006, 05:07:30 AM
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Why the 45 and NOT the 9mm???
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060201.aspx
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If they are so close you need a pistol. Maybe they should think about issuing UZI's or the Mach 10. Is it time to reconsider the submachine gun. Why mess around with one .45 slug when you can blast them with fifteen .9mm rounds or even .45's. Bring back the Tommy gun, I say.
I remember seeing a Marine on TV armed only with a pistol because he was carrying some other gear. It seemed wrong when the submachine gun was invented for that very purpose.
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an easy answer: .45 caliber is a big bullet for a pistol. about 11.5mm (or something.) that meens it is heavier and has more surface area for better stopping power. this is nessasary because many combatants have been found to be high on opium when in combat, thus increasing the need for a...OOO how bout the Webly manstopper round? it was developed to stop battle-frenzied Zulu warriors. the fact is that the M1911A1 is more effective than the current 9mm baretta.
in regards to stopping power, i will quote Martin Dougherty on this one...
"This concept has been demonstrated on a practical basis by big game hunters who chose to carry small-calibre, high-velocity rifles rather than the traditional big-bore big game rifles. Their victems were more likely to be enraged than disabled. More than a few hunters shot an elephant that subsequently died from internal trauma - but only after goring and trampling the intrepid hunter."
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Originally posted by SMIDSY
an easy answer: .45 caliber is a big bullet for a pistol. about 11.5mm (or something.) that meens it is heavier and has more surface area for better stopping power. this is nessasary because many combatants have been found to be high on opium when in combat, thus increasing the need for a...OOO how bout the Webly manstopper round? it was developed to stop battle-frenzied Zulu warriors. the fact is that the M1911A1 is more effective than the current 9mm baretta.
in regards to stopping power, i will quote Martin Dougherty on this one...
"This concept has been demonstrated on a practical basis by big game hunters who chose to carry small-calibre, high-velocity rifles rather than the traditional big-bore big game rifles. Their victems were more likely to be enraged than disabled. More than a few hunters shot an elephant that subsequently died from internal trauma - but only after goring and trampling the intrepid hunter."
From you comment I'm guessing you didn't bother to read the article?
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High on opium? That is pretty stupid. From what I know of opium it is a drug that makes you want to lie down and doze...not get up and fight.
Uppers of any kind, Khat, meth, etc. may be good for fighting, but opium? I would have thought taking that stuff would get you killed quick in a battle.
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It would be like taking a couple of percocets Curv. I know when I had to take them for my wisdom teeth, I was loving life but couldn't play a game worth ****. I ended up falling asleep on the keyboard.
-SW
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The 45ACP was developed in response to the MORO warriors, who were severing the heads of soldiers AFTER being mortally wounded by 38 Colt rounds.
Given "ball" type ammo (non hollow point), the 45 has a much greater frontal area than the 9mm, about the same difference as between the 45 and the 38 (remember the Moro warriors?), and as such transfers more energy to flesh, and disrupts more tissue, creating more shock and a larger wound channel.
When you move to hollow point ammo, the difference is even greater. One of the most reliable man stopping rounds is the 45ACP 230 grain flying ashtray. It ranks a VERY close second to the 357 Magnum 125 grain +P hollow point. The 9mm is not often in the top five.
There were four main reasons given for adopting the 9mm over the 45 for military use, most of which are not even valid, some of which the weapon adopted negates.
The first is that our NATO allies use the 9mm.
The second is that the 9mm is more likely to penetrate hardened (kevlar) headgear. Well, rarely do you have people shot in the helmet, because few people try headshots, and even then, you rarely see one made at an angle that allows ANY pistol round to penetrate.
The third is grip size. A full third or more people find the old 1911 Colt grip much more agreable than the Model 92 Beretta. The grip of the 92 Beretta is not small, because it has a double stack magazine, and the trigger reach, especially for the first shot, isn't much shorter either.
Fourth is felt recoil/controlability. Many find the Beretta to be no more controllable than the 1911, because despite being 100 years old, the frame/grip of the 1911 was better designed to fit the human hand and control recoil.
Regarding capacity, I'd rather hit the enemy ONCE and put him DOWN, than hit him three or four times and have him keep coming.
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Opiates affect those who take them regularly far differently than those who take them rarely for medicinal purposes. If you refer to those who take opiates before battle, remember that they take them in a different dose than you do for pain, under different circumstances.
There's a huge difference between "I want plenty of medication to kill this pain while I lie on the couch and rest" and "I don't want pain to stop me from killing many of my enemies before fulfillling my destiny by being killed in glorious battle for my maker".
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
It would be like taking a couple of percocets Curv. I know when I had to take them for my wisdom teeth, I was loving life but couldn't play a game worth ****. I ended up falling asleep on the keyboard.
-SW
hehe
Been there...had the percs for a bad back. Couldn't fly fighters at all...reactions were just waaaay too slow. But bombing missions were kinda fun...as long as I stayed awake.
;)
Virgil...good point.
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Interesting read on the subject:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm
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What never ceases to amaze me about those studies, many of which cite the Miami shootout specificly, is how they have failed to learn the lesson imparted by that shootout. The response to the poor performance of the 9mm round issued to Special Agent Jerry Dove is now the 40 Short and Weak, which offers little, if any, improvement. It isn't big enough or heavy enough to offer improved tissue disruption or penetration at slower speeds, and it isn't fast enough to be much better than a medium velocity cartridge. If you're going to use a bullet that is less than .43" diameter and lighter than 180 grains, it better have 1300 feet per second muzzle velocity. Especially if it is an expanding bullet.
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Originally posted by wrag
Why the 45 and NOT the 9mm???
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060201.aspx
It's a better round for the task suited wrag. I'll agree with them and say that the Mk 23 SOCOM is a large pistol. It is the only pistol to be in the "Offensive Weapons" category the US Military has. I thought the US Military was going to work with HK and build a modified USP 45 to their liking.
As for a comparison between the 9 and 45, while the 9mm can obviously kill something, it relies on the bullet to expand (or mushroom). Firing ball ammo at a human in a military role is completely insane. These will go through the assailant. The 45 even in ball ammo will not have enough energy to go through the assailant. Make the change to Hollow points, and the 45 is still better, larger area, and stopping power.
I have a USP 45, I use CorBon 230gr +P ammo in it, and it is the fastest 230gr JHP out there. The recoil is nothing on a 9mm, I find it hard to believe people have a problem "managing the recoil on a Beretta 92/96 than a 1911". 9mm is almost like shooting a .22, in terms of recoil.
Karaya
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I work with a few Army vets. They all agreed that 9mm lacks accuracy and preferred the 45 cal for that reason.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
It's a better round for the task suited wrag. I'll agree with them and say that the Mk 23 SOCOM is a large pistol. It is the only pistol to be in the "Offensive Weapons" category the US Military has. I thought the US Military was going to work with HK and build a modified USP 45 to their liking.
As for a comparison between the 9 and 45, while the 9mm can obviously kill something, it relies on the bullet to expand (or mushroom). Firing ball ammo at a human in a military role is completely insane. These will go through the assailant. The 45 even in ball ammo will not have enough energy to go through the assailant. Make the change to Hollow points, and the 45 is still better, larger area, and stopping power.
I have a USP 45, I use CorBon 230gr +P ammo in it, and it is the fastest 230gr JHP out there. The recoil is nothing on a 9mm, I find it hard to believe people have a problem "managing the recoil on a Beretta 92/96 than a 1911". 9mm is almost like shooting a .22, in terms of recoil.
Karaya
I had a 9mm Beretta 92/96. Got rid of it. The recoil was managable but the dang grip was twisting in my hand.
Got a 1911 now. It shoots better then I do LOL. Guess you need bigger hands then I have for a 9mm?
Got very narrow grips for it BTW. Funny never thought of my hands being small???
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Staring down the barrel of a 9mm just doesn't have the same ring to it....
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guys.. the object of a handgun (except in hunting and maybe even then) is not to kill but to stop.
You want to stop the bad guy from doing anthing else... It does no good to put 6 9mm ball rounds into the bad guy and have him die 1 hour later if he really doesn't notice them much and is able to function for most of that hour that he is bleeding out.
Ball ammo is the worst thing you can use in a pistol for stopping people. You have a better chance tho with a large slug. Velocity is still a good thing tho just... not as important as size.
If I had to carry full metal jacket ammo (war) I would carry a 45 with full jacket 185 grain semi wadcutters or a revolver in 44 mag with 240 grain full jacket semi wadcutters.
Reason being... the 45 would gain velocity and wounding channel in a wemi wadcutter that was 185 vs 230 We are talking velocity in the 1,000 fps range.
the revolver? for modern warfare? well.... yeah.. It is a last ditch weapon anyway.. or a close quarters one... The 44 mag in the hands of someone who has trained with it can get an extremely accurate first shot off and you should have plenty of time (and ammo) to shoot the other one or two guys in the room... anything else and... you shouldn't have been carrying a handgun.
Ok... I have read all of Marshalls work.. The 230 grain ball has a stopping potential of about 65% if you get a good torso hit.
The 9 mm ball is dismal with 60% or less one shot stops.
The 44 mag is not a round that was designed to shoot people. It rarely expands on people (it is meant for game animals to break bones) even in hollowpoint... the latest hollowpoints for defense of course are probly the nastiest handgun round there is but little data exists... on paper they seem to be about 98% effective one shot stoppers tho. but...
the standard jaketed 240 grain semi wadcutter hunting and target round will not expand in a human very often even so... this round has put down bad guys with one shot to the torso 81% of the time. This is enough of an improvement over both the 45 and 9mm to make me consider it (plus I am comfortable with the gun and ammo)
If you have to use ball... the 44 is great too because it can penetrate a lot of cover.
lazs
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The .40 cal is a nice cross between the 9mm and .45, IMO. Higher velocity than the .45 (but not quite that of 9mm) and more punch than the 9mm (but not quite that of the .45)
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the .40 is not that bad of a round with modern expanding ammo. it would not work well in fmj
lazs
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They all agreed that 9mm lacks accuracy
Really? I never thought that it was that bad.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I work with a few Army vets. They all agreed that 9mm lacks accuracy and preferred the 45 cal for that reason.
Agreed. With an old beat up .45 (and all the USCG pistols were "shot out") I consistantly scored Sharpshooter. Once I even got 1 point away from Expert!
With the "new" 9mm we got I never shot better than Marksman, and I barely pulled that off. Something about that gun just never felt right in my hands. And it never seemed like the shot went where I placed it :(
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I was a big Glock guy for a long time. I packed a G17 regulary.
The more I talked to people though and the more I read got me to try out a 1911.
I now carry a Kimber and would never go back to a 9mm. The way I look at it why take a chance? If I am ever forced to shoot someone I would much rather unload one double tap (which a 1911 is far better at than a Glock) than have to fire 5, 6 or even more rounds. Also I figure I am less likley to be prosicuted after the fact if I fire 2 rds as opposed to 6.
Cant beat a 1911.
Just my opinion of course (shrug)
For the record...... I have a Springfield XD9 at home that my wife can use for defense if I am away from home. When I have some extra cash I hope to get the same XD model in a .40 for her.
Anyone wana buy an XD9? :lol
Dave
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Originally posted by Curval
...From what I know ... blah blah
:D
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Nomak,
FWIW, I went the oposite way. Off duty I carried an Officers Model in stainless. Other thatn the really crappy design flaw with the recoil spring retaining cap it was a nice piece. It shot very well for me but was freaking HEAVY and only held 7 rounds. A second mag was also heavy. After I saw the smaller Glock's and had a chance to compare them side by side with the Colt, it was another easy choice. The Glock was lighter full up with 16 rds than the Colt was empty. It also was vitually the same size length, height and thickness. It shot so well for me that I changed to the same weapon for on and off duty. I also used it and my duty rig for combat competition against the "race guns" and "competition holsters". I held my own just fine on speed of draw using a heavy tight thumb break holster. The enclosed mag pouches weren't any real help though. :(
After we had a couple protracted shootouts the Dept. decide to allow the semi auto's for duty. When I saw the first Glock I thought it was the ugliest darn thing I had ever seen in a hand gun. Until I shot it. I wasn't an adherant to the 9mm at all but given the departmental mandate on caliber it was an easy choice. I went from a Model 66 4" loaded with .38+p silvertips (Dept ammo ONLY allowed on duty) to a Glock with Black Talons. Yep the EVIL :t bullet. Still Dept. issued ammo until the bleeding hearts B****ed about it and got it changed to CCI Gold Dots. I had more rounds in one mag than I had on my person total with the revolver. I had a total of 51 rounds with all mags.
For me the Glock shot very well, accurate and reliable including with my reloads. LIke any other PERSONAL choice, it's not for everyone. The .45 also shot well and I never felt that I was handicapped by either guns accuracy, just the 45's weight and low ammo count.
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The faster you finsh a gunfight the less shot you will get. Only hits count and the only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss. 'Stopping Power' is an extremely desireable feature in any weapon you expect may actually be used at some point to actually stop[/b] somebody.
So, your personal carry handgun should be fast and utterly dependable, extremely accurate and be able to stop in his tracks whoever it hits.
Therefore, the 1911 .45acp is an outstanding choice if not THE outstanding choice. Remember, the real point to a personal firearm is not to make the person that carries it 'feel real good'. It's to make the person it's pointed at feel real dead in an exceedingly short timeframe.
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I really like my USP 45 nad i'm looking to pick up a great 1911 too.
The HK USP45 is cool and the new HK45 the Army is looking at is even better:
(http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/12361-HK45plain.jpg)
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.45 is the round that God shoots.
shamus
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Laz!
You reload right?
Take a real close look ar Hornady's 200 for the 45 acp.
Can be loaded up pretty fast and has a fairly large expansion range.
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AH crap stop beating around the bush:eek:
Just give me desert eagle 50cal pistols and be done with it.
Oh and i like the idea of killing muslims with a gun made in Israel:aok
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I keep a Glock G37 next to the bed w/45GAP 230gr SXT in it. I carry a Glock G26 though. Nice small gun with 12 rnds 9mm (+2 base mags) 147gr HP and 115gr FMJ mix. I will probably be picking up a Glock G39(45GAP) for carry eventually.
Terror
PS. Yes, I am a Glock "enthusiast". ;)
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Originally posted by wrag
Laz!
You reload right?
Take a real close look ar Hornady's 200 for the 45 acp.
Can be loaded up pretty fast and has a fairly large expansion range.
Yeah, but just don't EVER reload ammo to carry for personal defense. If you did not buy it in a store, or it was not issued to you by your department, just don't put it in your weapon for anything but practice.
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Originally posted by wrag
I had a 9mm Beretta 92/96. Got rid of it. The recoil was managable but the dang grip was twisting in my hand.
Got a 1911 now. It shoots better then I do LOL. Guess you need bigger hands then I have for a 9mm?
Got very narrow grips for it BTW. Funny never thought of my hands being small???
Look into the Glock 36 wrag. It is Glock's 6 round 45. It has a VERY narrow grip. My buddy who is working convoy security in Iraq, carries it when he is home. Just a thought.
Karaya
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Really? I never thought that it was that bad.
In a "controlled environment" the 9mm is good. Factor in climate and wind, it sucks.
Karaya
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There's a local range here with about 50 guns available for rent. I have tried just about all of them. By and large, the 9mm's suck. Say what you will, poor maintainance or whatever, I find the .45's and large caliber revolvers to be more accurate. The 1st time I tried a 9mm glock I thought something had to be broken. We're talkin 6-10 inch groups at 7m. Didn't do much better with the 9mm Berreta's or Sig's either. With a nice 1911 I can tear the bullseye out, maybe a 2 inch group on average. With my Ruger MKII 6 7/8" bull barrel I can shoot sub 1 inch groups. With my Baikal IZH-46M Match Air Pistol I can pop paintballs at 18yrds about 1/2 the time, offhand. It's truly amazing what a difference a quality gun makes.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Yeah, but just don't EVER reload ammo to carry for personal defense. If you did not buy it in a store, or it was not issued to you by your department, just don't put it in your weapon for anything but practice.
I know that most PD's require this, but over the years I have had fewer malfunctions with my reloads than with store bought stuff.
Primer failure is the only thing you cant predict.
I have seen 'no powder' loads in commercial stuff, never had that in home rolled.
shamus
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Originally posted by Maverick
Nomak,
FWIW, I went the oposite way. Off duty I carried an Officers Model in stainless. Other thatn the really crappy design flaw with the recoil spring retaining cap it was a nice piece. It shot very well for me but was freaking HEAVY and only held 7 rounds. A second mag was also heavy. After I saw the smaller Glock's and had a chance to compare them side by side with the Colt, it was another easy choice. The Glock was lighter full up with 16 rds than the Colt was empty. It also was vitually the same size length, height and thickness. It shot so well for me that I changed to the same weapon for on and off duty. I also used it and my duty rig for combat competition against the "race guns" and "competition holsters". I held my own just fine on speed of draw using a heavy tight thumb break holster. The enclosed mag pouches weren't any real help though. :(
After we had a couple protracted shootouts the Dept. decide to allow the semi auto's for duty. When I saw the first Glock I thought it was the ugliest darn thing I had ever seen in a hand gun. Until I shot it. I wasn't an adherant to the 9mm at all but given the departmental mandate on caliber it was an easy choice. I went from a Model 66 4" loaded with .38+p silvertips (Dept ammo ONLY allowed on duty) to a Glock with Black Talons. Yep the EVIL :t bullet. Still Dept. issued ammo until the bleeding hearts B****ed about it and got it changed to CCI Gold Dots. I had more rounds in one mag than I had on my person total with the revolver. I had a total of 51 rounds with all mags.
For me the Glock shot very well, accurate and reliable including with my reloads. LIke any other PERSONAL choice, it's not for everyone. The .45 also shot well and I never felt that I was handicapped by either guns accuracy, just the 45's weight and low ammo count.
Please forgive me but as I am not in law enforcement I am not sure what an "Officers Model" is......I gather a 4" revolver?
I really like Glocks and will probably own another one...... However once I put a few rds downrange with the Kimber my Glock felt......well..... "Cheap" The 1911 feel and espically trigger pull were worlds better. My Kimber has also converted 2 of my best buds from Glocks to Kimbers.
The Glock shot very well for me also. The 1911 shots even better though.
I actually prefer a heaver sidearm. The weight while I am carrying I dont even notice and the gun feels more stable to be. Espically when firing hot ammo. It seems to me to be easer to keep the sights on target for a second and third shot with the heaver piece.
As far as capacity I use Wilson combat mags. They are much nicer than the original Kimber mags I recieved. They hold 8 and then I put 1 in the pipe cocked and locked. I figure 9 is enough.
I should say that I have Not had the same experence with other 1911's. I have shot Colts, Para Ord, Springfield etc etc and I found the Kimber to be worlds better.
I guess all that sounds like a Kimber promo :lol Sorry about that its not meant to. Just relating my personal experence with them.
Dave
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An Officers Model is a compact Colt 1911.
shamus
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Originally posted by Shamus
I know that most PD's require this, but over the years I have had fewer malfunctions with my reloads than with store bought stuff.
Primer failure is the only thing you cant predict.
I have seen 'no powder' loads in commercial stuff, never had that in home rolled.
shamus
Shoot a perp (whether you're a civilian or a department member) with ammo loaded at home and see how many lawyers and D.A.'s line up for a piece of your bellybutton and how fast they do it.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Shoot a perp (whether you're a civilian or a department member) with ammo loaded at home and see how many lawyers and D.A.'s line up for a piece of your bellybutton and how fast they do it.
A red herring, never heard of this being an issue, have you?
shamus
PS: and one horror story is not enough.
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Originally posted by Shamus
A red herring, never heard of this being an issue, have you?
shamus
PS: and one horror story is not enough.
I found out about it YEARS ago. No, I can no longer quote specific examples. Yes, I did at one time remember specific examples. I gave up law enforcement 20 years ago, so I haven't had the need to remember that sort of thing for a while. I remember it well enough to remember NOT to do it, despite having $2000+ worth of reloading equipment and enjoying the reloading process immensely. You can bet your last dollar that if I thought non commercial reloads for personal defense were a good idea, I wouldn't waste a lot of money on factory ammo I don't like as much as my own ammo for half a dozen guns. Go ahead and carry non commercial reloads if you want. I'll pass. People smarter than I taught me better, and I paid money for the lessons.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The 45ACP was developed in response to the MORO warriors, who were severing the heads of soldiers AFTER being mortally wounded by 38 Colt rounds.
Given "ball" type ammo (non hollow point), the 45 has a much greater frontal area than the 9mm, about the same difference as between the 45 and the 38 (remember the Moro warriors?), and as such transfers more energy to flesh, and disrupts more tissue, creating more shock and a larger wound channel.
When you move to hollow point ammo, the difference is even greater. One of the most reliable man stopping rounds is the 45ACP 230 grain flying ashtray. It ranks a VERY close second to the 357 Magnum 125 grain +P hollow point. The 9mm is not often in the top five.
There were four main reasons given for adopting the 9mm over the 45 for military use, most of which are not even valid, some of which the weapon adopted negates.
The first is that our NATO allies use the 9mm.
The second is that the 9mm is more likely to penetrate hardened (kevlar) headgear. Well, rarely do you have people shot in the helmet, because few people try headshots, and even then, you rarely see one made at an angle that allows ANY pistol round to penetrate.
The third is grip size. A full third or more people find the old 1911 Colt grip much more agreable than the Model 92 Beretta. The grip of the 92 Beretta is not small, because it has a double stack magazine, and the trigger reach, especially for the first shot, isn't much shorter either.
Fourth is felt recoil/controlability. Many find the Beretta to be no more controllable than the 1911, because despite being 100 years old, the frame/grip of the 1911 was better designed to fit the human hand and control recoil.
Regarding capacity, I'd rather hit the enemy ONCE and put him DOWN, than hit him three or four times and have him keep coming.
I always thought that it was the .45 Long Colt that was developed in
response to the Moro?
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I've never had a problem with 9mm accuracy even when shooting beat up USAF berettas during range qualifications. Every time I've had to qual I've shot expert (even on the new/improved USAF course which emphasizes combat shooting skills).
I have the same beretta in .40 and it rocks. CHP tested rounds and liked the 10mm but it's too long of a cartridge for small hands to hold on to (mostly female cops) so they went with the .40 as a compromise. They seem to be having good results after some initial frame/slide cracking issues with their guns.
The small CHP issue S&W guns twist badly in my hand but the bigger beretta and the same round gives me a nice linear recoil. Even my wife handles my beretta .40 fine, and I used it to train her up before she had to pass the USAF 9mm qual course. She qualified no problem although fatigue resulted in her pulling a dozen shots about 6 inches low. Still on paper = qual, but not in the circle means no expert qual.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Look into the Glock 36 wrag. It is Glock's 6 round 45. It has a VERY narrow grip. My buddy who is working convoy security in Iraq, carries it when he is home. Just a thought.
Karaya
Thanks for the suggestion but my 45's fit perfectly now. Funny though got a 44 with a big grip and a so does my 357 and NO problem.
Think it's just the shape of some grips?
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Originally posted by Shamus
A red herring, never heard of this being an issue, have you?
shamus
PS: and one horror story is not enough.
The ammo itself isn't the deal here. The thought process is. The claim is they go after you because he set out to create ammo to KILL. Kinda a premeditated murder thing.
Been lookin around for the Hornady 200 45 acp in commercial though.
Geez stupid me, should check the Hornady site.
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I like my Kimber in .45 Us old guys just like the quality feel of it I guess.. but... now I will really show my age... I like wheelguns.... wheelguns are real guns.
I have a ruger redhawk cut down to 4" and despured with elk grips that I would want with me against man or bear. The .45 seems "cute" and "weak" next to it.
If I had to carry a plastic black pistol for some reason tho... it would either be 45 or .357 sig. I would lean toward the .357 sig.
for carry the 340PD smith at 12 ounces empty is the perfect "in your pocket" gun.
.357, 44 or 45 is about what I keep going back to.
lazs
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Originally posted by Rino
I always thought that it was the .45 Long Colt that was developed in
response to the Moro?
Go check the timeline. The .45 Long colt, was around before much of anyone in the US even heard about the Moro's.
The .38 double action revolver was the replacement for the .45 for the military until the Moro's showed that ball ammo at low velocity with a small frontal area is not a good stopper. The .38 then was even slower than the .45 at 650 to 700 fps.
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Originally posted by eagl
CHP tested rounds and liked the 10mm but it's too long of a cartridge for small hands to hold on to (mostly female cops) so they went with the .40 as a compromise. They seem to be having good results after some initial frame/slide cracking issues with their guns.
The 10mm was conceived by the venerable Col. Jeff Cooper.
The FBI adopted the 10mm in the early eighties. There were problems with recoil in the field (possiby gender related?) and they watered down the loads. The "FBI Loads" or "10 mm lights" were redesigned by S&W into the .40 S&W.
The 10mm is a phenominal round and I'm surprised it always seems to get lost in the shuffle. The ballistics are impressive and at typical loadings a 10mm produces more energy at 100 yds. than a .45 does at the muzzle.
I usually load 185 grain bullets that I buy by the pound out of barrels in the basement of the Sierra factory a few miles away. It's about as close to shooting for free as you can get.
The recoil is not at all objectionable (Colt Delta Elite) and the thing tracks dead nuts. Why this round is not more popular is a mystery to me.
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the response to the moro was to reissue single action 1873 colt 45's It probly did however influence the thought that the new cartrige for the goverment should be a 45 caliber. 455 webley and such were also researched.
lazs
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my just turned 21 yr old daughter has asked me to buy her a defensive firearm. I'm toying with the idea of a wheel gun for her. her mom carries a .32 seecamp I'm considering this also because of it's portability and concealability but I don't want to spend $350.00-$400.00. does anyone have any suggestions she's 5'4" 109lbs. and has fairly large hands for a girl.
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Originally posted by storch
she's 5'4" 109lbs. and has fairly large hands for a girl.
need more details before i can make a decision. hair/eye colour?
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Originally posted by storch
my just turned 21 yr old daughter has asked me to buy her a defensive firearm. I'm toying with the idea of a wheel gun for her. her mom carries a .32 seecamp I'm considering this also because of it's portability and concealability but I don't want to spend $350.00-$400.00. does anyone have any suggestions she's 5'4" 109lbs. and has fairly large hands for a girl.
I can tell you what I'm doing with my females who are going to carry. After originally considering and nearly buying Ruger SP-101's in .357, I've decided on Taurus 44 Special revolvers with 2" barrels. Simple, affordable, and large caliber without sharp recoil.
Experience has brought me to the point where I feel 357 is the minimum defense caliber. I've seen a couple of people who got the crap beat out of them after they shot someone with a small caliber auto, by the person they shot.
My main objection to the 357 is muzzle flash, muzzle blast, and sharp recoil. It's even worse in a 2" barrel. But with the 44 Special, you have a bullet near twice as heavy, and 0.073" larger in diameter moving at the same speed as a 38 Special, with little more recoil, and no more muzzle blast or muzzle flash. I like revolvers for NDP's (Non Dedicated Personnel) because they are simple, easy to handle, and reliable. I'll take the Taurus revolvers and slick the action up and put in a Wolff trigger spring to lighten the double action pull and make it smoother. Should be excellent for a female who needs a gun but doesn't want to be deep into it like guys like me are.
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Originally posted by storch
my just turned 21 yr old daughter has asked me to buy her a defensive firearm. I'm toying with the idea of a wheel gun for her. her mom carries a .32 seecamp I'm considering this also because of it's portability and concealability but I don't want to spend $350.00-$400.00. does anyone have any suggestions she's 5'4" 109lbs. and has fairly large hands for a girl.
Ruger makes an fairly small frame but excellent 357! Get a quality trigger job from a reputable gunsmith for it and grips that suite her and you should be good to go. Got several barrel lengths if IIRC.
A friend, with my help and a book by a well known lady, finally got his wife into guns. We took her to a range where she could fire many different hand weapons. She went with a wheel gun. Ruger made. Got a trigger job done a little later and changed the grips. She fired it for awhile and last time I saw them she was printing all 6 in the xring.
Packs the needed punch and is EZ for most to operate!
IIRC you can't get the Colt Python anymore. :cry
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I hadn't considered a .44 special but those are very fine points you make. my wife and both of my daughters are all excellent shots against paper even with my .357 and .38 cal 2" revolvers. my wife has an H&K USP in .40 S&W that she keeps at home but won't carry anything heavier than the seecamp it is stoked with the glaser safety slugs though. the small caliber can be augmented by utilizing glaser safety slug other types of frangibles. they seem to do a credible amount of damage in ballistic gelatin. they know to shoot two into center of mass and one to the head and like I said they do it mechanically against paper targets with very good accuracy. my eldest daughter likes the Sig P220 and thats what she carries with her. but I didn't have to pay for that one, her husband did. I usually carry a taurus model 650 with a 2" barrel.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I can tell you what I'm doing with my females who are going to carry. After originally considering and nearly buying Ruger SP-101's in .357, I've decided on Taurus 44 Special revolvers with 2" barrels. Simple, affordable, and large caliber without sharp recoil.
Experience has brought me to the point where I feel 357 is the minimum defense caliber. I've seen a couple of people who got the crap beat out of them after they shot someone with a small caliber auto, by the person they shot.
My main objection to the 357 is muzzle flash, muzzle blast, and sharp recoil. It's even worse in a 2" barrel. But with the 44 Special, you have a bullet near twice as heavy, and 0.073" larger in diameter moving at the same speed as a 38 Special, with little more recoil, and no more muzzle blast or muzzle flash. I like revolvers for NDP's (Non Dedicated Personnel) because they are simple, easy to handle, and reliable. I'll take the Taurus revolvers and slick the action up and put in a Wolff trigger spring to lighten the double action pull and make it smoother. Should be excellent for a female who needs a gun but doesn't want to be deep into it like guys like me are.
Hmmm.......
A little story re 44 special.
Fella buy charter arms bulldog in 44 special.
Fella buy 44 special ammo.
Fella take charter arms bulldog shooting.
Fella shoot many cans and stuff happy happy fella. :D
Fella shoot a near by tree stump with charter arms bulldog.
Fella say big loud OW! :huh
Fella got BIG bruise on thigh from 44 special bullet that hit tree stump and come back to fella's thigh. :cry
Fella NOT happy happy :confused:
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Originally posted by storch
I hadn't considered a .44 special but those are very fine points you make. my wife and both of my daughters are all excellent shots against paper even with my .357 and .38 cal 2" revolvers. my wife has an H&K USP in .40 S&W that she keeps at home but won't carry anything heavier than the seecamp it is stoked with the glaser safety slugs though. the small caliber can be augmented by utilizing glaser safety slug other types of frangibles. they seem to do a credible amount of damage in ballistic gelatin. they know to shoot two into center of mass and one to the head and like I said they do it mechanically against paper targets with very good accuracy. my eldest daughter likes the Sig P220 and thats what she carries with her. but I didn't have to pay for that one, her husband did. I usually carry a taurus model 650 with a 2" barrel.
Word I got was, all in all, females generally have slightly better eye hand coordination then males.
Also word is generally females have slightly faster reflexs then males.
Or at least that is what the sceintific community claims after much testing?
Good thing men are stronger?
Cause IMHO men are certainly NOT meaner!
Maybe we should be glade that women are generally nice people and the ones that seem rabid also seem to not like guns?
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Originally posted by wrag
Good thing men are stronger?
Cause IMHO men are certainly NOT meaner!
Maybe we should be glade that women are generally nice people and the ones that seem rabid also seem to not like guns?
:lol how true
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ok here is a hypothetical question for you gun lovers....
If you were being charged by a full grown grizzley, and you only had a crappy 9mm pistol with say, 15 rounds, what part of the bear would you shoot at. this is supposing you have a seperation of 30yrds and no chance of running or evading.
I think i would shoot him in the head as many times as possible. hoping to hit eyes/mouth/throat.
i dont have a clue though, being a brit.
so what should i aim for?
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A lucky headshot is probably the only way you'd get a grizzly with a 9mm. Most large bears have a thick fat layer most of the year that would stop most 9mm rounds before they penetrated far enough to do serious damage. A FMJ round might get deep enough but it would still take a lucky shot no matter where you hit it.
Assuming I have time to aim, I'd probably go for the head but also aim a couple at the chest region on the off chance that I'll nick something important and it'll bleed out before it has a chance to crush my skull completely. But I wouldn't really expect any good or quick results.
It's sort of like asking "I've fallen out of an airplane at 50,000 ft and I have with me 30 sq ft of cloth. Should I wrap the cloth around me to keep from freezing to death, or use the time I have left to use my shoelaces and belt to try to fashion a parachute out of the cloth". It's not exactly a situation you can plan on winning.
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Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/jcp.htm)
The US Special Operations Command [USSOCOM] issued a solicitation in August 2005 to obtain commercially available non-developmental item (NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45 (ACP). The Program (which absorbed an earlier Future Handgun System program) will use full and open competition to fulfill the JCP requirement. The JCP will be delivered in accordance with specification entitled "Performance Specification Joint Combat Pistol" to be provided with issuance of the solicitation. Two configurations of the pistol will be required. One configuration will have no external safety and the other configuration will have an external safety.
The Combat Pistol System consists of: a Caliber .45 pistol and its ancillary equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor Attachment Kit for operation of the pistol with and without sound suppressor; Holster; Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity); Cleaning Kit; and Operator's Manual.
The contract type will be an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) issuing Firm-Fixed Price (FFP) delivery orders. The contract period of performance shall be Five (5)years with an option to extend for an additional Five (5) years. The Minimum Quantity is 24 each Engineering Test Units (ETU's), 12 each with external manual safety and 12 each without external manual safety. The estimated Maximum quantities are: 45,000 no external safety JCP configuration and 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration;
That "pop" sound you heard was the US military pulling it's cranium out of it's posterior. So long, 9mm sissy round!
....and as for the Grizzly, take a shooting stance, extend your gun arm/hand and aim for the nose/mouth area. Shoot all but one round quickly. If the bear doesn't stop, use the last round on your own temple. It won't hurt nearly as much that way.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
ok here is a hypothetical question for you gun lovers....
If you were being charged by a full grown grizzley, and you only had a crappy 9mm pistol with say, 15 rounds, what part of the bear would you shoot at. this is supposing you have a seperation of 30yrds and no chance of running or evading.
I think i would shoot him in the head as many times as possible. hoping to hit eyes/mouth/throat.
i dont have a clue though, being a brit.
so what should i aim for?
The eyeballs. As Jeff Cooper once said, "If a man is going to carry one of those sub caliber weapons, he'd do well to practice hitting the eye sockets. The proper drill for this is to practice until you regularly hit bouncing ping pong balls at 7-10 yards about 85% of the time, because thats about the size and distance of your only valid target area."
The guys who guide hunts usually carry a LARGE caliber carbine (45-70, 480 Ruger, 50 Alaskan) AND a relatively light and short revlolver chambered in at least 44 Magnum (with Garret loads or something like it), and often 445 SuperMag or 454 Casull. My personal favorite 44 Magnum load for bear and boar is a 295 grain hardcast Keith style bullet at around 1375 feet per second. My 6" Dan Wesson doesn't really even kick with it. It'll go through both shoulders of a boar at 50 yards.
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ok so head shots and eyes it is then, duly noted :D
wonder if i'll ever find a bear in the suburban lanscape or west londpn.
or a handgun for that matter :D
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I second the vote for a revolver for a person who will have minimal training to begin with. Later on she can "upgrade" to a better weapon if she wants to.
Make sure she gets additional training and if your state allows CCW have her go through the course even if she has no intention of carrying. Good info in a course like that including the times when not to shoot.
Caliber is another personal thing. Just like you can't miss fast enough to win a fight, you also can't incapacitate what you cannot hit. I think a hit with a small caliber is far more effective than a miss with a .50 desert eagle. If she can hit with it go with the best cartidge possible but she MUST be able to hit with it.
If she is not likely to use it when she will need to, don't get her one. She'll just end up giving it to the person who should not have it. Most important rule to surviving a knife or gunfight is to have a gun. Second most important rule is to use it when you need to.