Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: SkevJ on February 04, 2006, 12:28:50 AM
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This is where I get lost.
Whenever I'm in a training arena and people teach me manuevers I have a good time understanding what they are teaching but when it comes to the rudder and elevator trim use I get lost. So my question to experts is what is the purpose of Rudder and trim use?
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im not an expert, but here it is.
rudder trim is only used (by me) when the plane is badly damaged and im trying to counter the effects of missing half a wing, or losing an engine in multi-engined planes. leave this well alone, IMO.
elevator trim is very usefull. set to full deflection up it will do exactly what you expect. pull up/round faster.
the combat trim sets the trim automatically for whatever it thinks is best for you at any time.
manual trim will override this function, therefore you can keep the elevators fully trimmed up at all times.
a good time to use elevator trim is when trying to pull out of a compression dive.
another is when fighting in a turn fight with a more nimle plane.
be warned though, it can produce unstable flight if you are not used to it, and will make the nose bounce for gunnery alot more noticable.
bat
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Another good example of using elevator trim is when I take one of the FWs up for a flight. The 190s tend to nose up horrifically (don't most planes?) when you're in a dive and increasing speed. What you can do is gradually trim elevator down as you're in your dive and increasing speed to combat the nose up and it makes gun solutions much easier as you don't have to fight with the plane and really push the stick down to keep the nose at the angle you want to maintain during said dive. This allows you to be lighter on the stick during the attack and allows for much more smooth, fluid guns solutions.
Like Batfink said, using elevator trim during a compression dive is sometimes the only difference between pulling out of it and continuing on with your flight or becoming a temporary lawn ornament. I've also seen examples of setting the elevator trim up during slow and low TnBing. Remember, the Combat Trim doesn't compensate for flaps, and isn't really good at the two extremes: really slow, and really fast.
I don't know if anyone else does it, but I really utilize the elevator and aileron trims when I land. This allows me to keep the plane nice and straight with minimal input on the stick allowing me to counteract the nose up from flaps, not changing my course that much.. etc etc. If there's one thing I can do (not really good at dogfighting), is put a plane down on a runway like a baby in a cradle using the trim and that's usually the highlight of my flight. :lol I honestly never use rudder trim and it's the only trim not mapped on my setup.
I'd highly suggest reading this material (http://www.netaces.org/ahtraining/lephturn/trim.html#title) over at netAces. You can read up on it and start practicing different situations where the trim might be useful; manual, combat, and everything between. Hope this helps.
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To get the plane fly straigth for easier shooting i switch combat trim on and off again quickly.
During combat or flying i use elevator trim to get steady dive (down), easier nose drop when slow(down), better turn performance when fast(up), pull out of dive when to fast(up), avoid slow speed - nose up flying which makes me stall(down).
The down/up always being from the combat trim "neutral" that i get.
Usually combat trim makes you fly straight, but i noticed that in verry fast dives combat trim pulls you slightly out of dive in some planes.
Trimming down/up from ct neutral position is best done with 3 free buttons on joystick, one to toggle ct, one for trim up one for trim down. The only disadvantage is that with "neutralizing" trims with ct you get your elevator trim set to current speed and have to trim for quite a while to get it to the desired trim position again. Also since autopilot trims the ac for lvl (climb/angle) flight you always have to retrim after autopilot.
An alternative is to use a "trimwheel"(rotary) which is present on some joysticks and map it to the elevator trim, dont forget to turn it all the way during joystick calibration AND center it before pressing the calibration finish button. Then you always have the wheel position the same as the elevator trim as soon as autopilots and ct are off. I find that verry convinient but a lot of work, since i always need to manually adjust the trim.
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revor, as a new pilot, you shouldn't worry about trim. not many people use it in a fight, and combat trim will do it for you anyway. the only plus to manual trim is that you can get the plane ready fora move before you do it, which the combat trim wont do. BUT, at an early stage, it doesnt matter at all. i mean, ive been flying for a year, and i still use combat trim. the only plane i would say needs trimming is a p38, to get the most out of it
what is far more important is flap and throttle control. and rudder, is very important for lining up shots in a move. im not sure whether you're actually talking about rudder trim, or rudder here, if rudder trim, follow my advice above, leave it alone for now. if you're actually talking about rudder, if you dont have a rudder on your joystick, or pedals, you may find it difficult, because rudder is very important for flying the plane, and helps you track a guy during a move, giving you a longer gun solution
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BUT, at an early stage, it doesnt matter at all.
I disagree with this totally.i have ran into too many people that have been playing AH for a year or more that feel they are at a level where they are stuck,and they can't figure out why someone is outturning them or just plain out flying them.After being shown trim control they are lifted from this level of game play and continue on with thier skills.I also feel that every person that comes into this "Game" should learn trim control as early as possible,granted some are not mentally all there too learn such things but it never hurts too try.
I use trim control full time in just about every aspect of this game involving a plane,not really landing as much because that is a flap issue.Climbing in a fully loaded out P-47,with trim control the 47 will climb alot better with the elevator up as will alot of aircraft.The Fw-190 well,you just hit wep on take-off and let it ride.
With combat trim the control parts will only move so far as with in using trim control the elevator will go even further up than it does with combat trim " No matter what anybody else say's".I myself am pretty good at teaching the usage and set up of Trim Control so if you neeed any help i am usually in the TA,if not PM me i can try to set up a time.:aok
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I thought someone in the past tested elevator trim in turns and revealed that it was false that it made any difference. Totaly deflection was the same (ie, turn rate) but the amount of stick movement until total deflection was only slight reduced (ie, it made it a bit more sensitive. It made NO difference in actual turn rate... at least that's what I remember.
For me, honestly, I barely use trim. I use it to pull out of dives sometimes if I get overspeed, I click on autopilot from time to time to ensure I'm trimmed in roll correctly, there is almost no reason to use your rudder (yaw) trim unless you are flying damaged. You don't want to get too far out of trim in general for your alt/speed but it's not a game-breaker to constantly be adjusting trim (like in IL2). One caveat was combat-trim, combat trim is fairly effective under "normal" conditions in the centre of the flight envelope but near the edges it tends to get a bit wonky. It can be a detriment in some aircraft, P-38 and 109's come to mind, so I've never used combat trim.
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well, some conflicting views here, and all equally valid for the individual.
I CAN promise you that my F4UD with manual trim and elevs set to full deflection up will outturn a spitfire much easier than with it on combat trim.
maybe its a placebo?
in the merge, you are most likely to be diving to get the vertical seperation advantage. Combat Trim will be deflecting your elevs down at this point. with the elevs trimmed up you have to froce the dive even harder, but once youu start the merge you will flip round in half the time, i am sure.
geuss you're gunna have to test it out, see what you like best, and leave our opinions in this forum till you know for yourself.
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Not using combat trim is another great challenge for those that like challenges.
Combat trim was designed for the noobs so that they could start to fight right away.
Try disabling combat trim in your settings. That way, you can never use combat trim.
I disabled it in my settings. Whenever I hit control-x, the light turns on for combat trim, but it doesn't work.
Setting>preferences>flight>uncheck auto combat trim. ( I think that's how you change it)
It makes gunnery harder, and can cause problems when dogfighting. I am constantly adjusting trim in fights. For me, it helps improve my instantanous turn rate as well as improve roll rate.
"At the same time, it reduces turn rate and roll rate in other directions"
If you don't get what i just said in the quotations, ignore it, for I don't want to type out the explanation for that :)
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Combat trim "on" will never hurt you. Especially if you're new to the game.
For those who have been flying a year and seem to always be out turned, you may want to spend some quality time with a trainer. He will get you past those hurdles.
There's an old saying in sim flying. If you "think" it's working for you then maybe it is. As long as you have fun doing it! :)
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Combat trim was designed for the noobs so that they could start to fight right away.
Thats funny stuff kermit really,because 1/2 the newbies i work with would have a way harder time learning trim control than they would learning the basics like flying in a straight line.Out of all the newbiez i work with only 15% of them are ready to learn Combat Trim in the beginning of thier instruction.Those wo have played Flight Sim games before and have the basics of flight down.
Not using combat trim is another great challenge for those that like challenges.
Tha right there is just plain ignorant.
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Trim is over rated. The trim debate has raged since the beginnings of AH. If you want more speed, it is best to understand Energy.
I use manual trim all the time, but rarely when fighting. Combat trim works just fine. This is not something that needs to in early air combat training. It's kind of like teaching a lumberjack to use sandpaper. Yes, it's good to know how it works, but you don't need it for cutting down trees.
Use of rudder is much more useful. You can use rudder when shooting guns, but should not be used with rockets or bombs. It is also good for landing.
Gunner
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Autopilot, Kermit was refering to Combat Trim ----> Ctrl-X as in for new flyers turn on CT
you are referencing Combat trim as manual trim actually...........
telling Kermit he is ignorant because he said not using combat Trim is a challenge, is well ignorant in itself..........you picked the word, I didn't;)
Kermit had it right, not using CT/Combat Trim/Ctrl-X and using manual trim is more of a challenge.........
Kermit, not sure how your settings are, but I too have CT/Combat Trim turned off, but when I hit Ctrl-X it turns on the light and it works until I switch it back off...........and if I am for example in a slow E bleeding climb and I switch CT on it adjust the trim tabs to the current situation quite briskly
Soda,
I use rudder to keep the stick/ball centered for the most part.......unless I am wanting to skid on purpose or something calls for it.........but most times improper use of rudder is going to throw off your shot.....
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Well TC i call it how i see it.Those that tell you it doesn't help are usually the ones that don't want the others too figure it out.
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Well TC i call it how i see it.Those that tell you it doesn't help are usually the ones that don't want the others too figure it out.
Conspiracy Theory... hillarious.
Obviously you are a bit unclear, combat-trim is a function, the act of triming for combat is different. Trimming to improve turn-rate (ie, trimming pitch up) has been discussed and is a myth. Trim does have advantages for gunnery, for drag, to help keep the controls centered, and in some specific circumstances (like pulling out of a dive in some aircraft) but "impressions" that it is an advantage are likely not based on truth according to the 10 other times it's been discussed in this forum.
AutoPilot, I'd be really careful selling anyone else on your theory unless you can actually prove it with real measurements.
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using manual trim doesnt give you any advantage that wasnt there already. doesnt make the plane fy or turn better than it would to its best abilities.
what it does do over 'combat trim' (automtic trimming) is it means you can keep the elevators giving you a full deflection + the aid of the trim tabs at times when the combat trim would be limiting those movements.
using manual DOES most certainly help to turn tighter than using combat trim simply because the combat trim limits the air flow at times.
the trim tabs on an aircraft work independantly to the control surfaces.
so lets say the trim on elevators is set fully downwards, and you are pulling back on the stick trying to attain full deflection. Even though your elevators will raise to the same extent as with the trim tabs neutral, with the tabs deflecting downwards, they are limiting the effect of the elevator even at full deflection.
no, my explanations arnt perfect, but yes, trim works independantly from the control surfaces and, YES, manual trimming will give you an advantage in imediate turning.
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As I had already mentioned....if you really think it works for you then use it. If you think it doesn't work then don't use it.
So here you hear opposite sides as to whether or not manual versus auto trim is best. If someone tells you it works and you wanna believe it then great! If someone tells you it's doesn't work and you wanna believe that then great! If you took a poll and asked everyone who plays the game you might find out that most people don't use manual trim and guess what...they get lotsa kills too.
If you think using it adds realism and that's what you're into, that's great! Use manual trim!
If you ask the trainers, some use it and some don't. But, there is a difference. The trainers are trying to get you up to speed in the shortest period of time and don't particularly care what your choice is as long as you can take the concepts provided and turn them into real (virtual) life tactics/techniques. If you can't then whether use manual or auto trim it won't really matter. You'll still be spending more time taking off than dogfighting. :)
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Regardless of your preference & style, know that combat trim does not compensate for flap changes.
Use that as you will.
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Hi
Use rudder
- to reduce or add the drag.
- for aiming
- avoid the spin during stall fight
- recover from spin…
- side wind landings
- taxing
Use trims
- to reduce stick & pedal forces
- to pull out from high speed dive. Very handy in 109’s
- to balancing little bit a damaged plane flight characters
I use manual trim 99% of my flight-fight time. To me Combat Trim is useful only for cruising etc light maneuvering flight. I don’t like to use CT during the fight, because trim settings are roaming all over and this cause control input inconsistency.
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Do a search for "trim" and "HiTech." Read what he says about trim.
If you set Combat Trim on, it will turn off as soon as soon as you touch a trim control. It will turn on again if you use auto-pilot. So you can use both whenever you wish.
If it feels good, do it. What a game :)
Gunner
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regardless of what anyone here says.....NO ONE can deny that using the trim tabs will tighten your turns and get more out of your aircraft in any given scenario.
Its not about personal preferance, it is simply about physics.
as i said, the trim tabs on most aircraft work independantly to the control surfaces.
there is not one once of truth in saying that using the manual trim does not improve rate of turn/climb compared to letting the combat trim do it for you.
simply is a false statement to say combat trim is just as effective as manual.
you cannot argue with physics.
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/trim.JPG)
I dont think it takes a mathematical genius to work out which of these settings will give the most effective results from your elevators.
that being said, its true that many dont use manual trim, and still do fine.
whatever works for you is best, but dont let anyone tell you that manual trimming wont give you a slight advantage.
batfink
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I thought I read somewhere that AH doesn't model the trim tabs. I.E. the trim controls affect the actual surfaces in this game...maybe that was AH1 and not AH2.
At any rate take off in a 109K, hit wep and turn on autopilot or autoclimb. Take a look at the ailerons and you'll notice that it looks like the ailerons themselves are not in the neutral position to maintain level flight. That would suggest to me that manual trim controls the surfaces rather than trim tabs on the surfaces. However...I'm not a pilot and not an expert. I will say that I don't use manual trim at all (except in the p38 and that is only elevator control to get full use of flaps..it would probably help with any plane using flaps but I'm lazy and doesn't seem to be as big a deal on other rides). I suggest the 109k since the motor really requires alot of trim to fight the torque roll so you can really see the difference in the ailerons.
If the tabs aren't modelled then you get full deflection of the surface no matter what the trim is set at..since there are no tabs to affect airflow.
That said the plane will certainly pitch up quicker with joystick input faster with the elevator trimmed full up when it's not necessary to maintain neutral flight at that particular speed (so more sensitive joystick) but it really wouldn't affect sustained turn rate. However since I can get myself into a snaproll just fine without trimming full up simply by pulling back on the stick quickly (in any plane) I don't feel the need to increase pitch rate or sensitivity. It might be that if your joystick is sort of sluggish the added sensitivity helps. In other words if you can't easily pull into a snaproll by yanking back on the stick then maybe adding some up elevator would be good....just guessing.
I'm want to say that I saw a reply by HT that confirmed full deflection of the elevator is aquired no matter where trim is set.
Oh well my two cents. It's easy to check simply by going offline and and watching for the control surfaces to move in response to manual trim inputs from internal or external views.
Zaphod
Zaphod
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BTW
Nice articles about Secondary Flight Controls
http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html
and lot more
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
regardless of what anyone here says.....NO ONE can deny that using the trim tabs will tighten your turns and get more out of your aircraft in any given scenario.
batfink
I forget to add
You said tighter? You mean tighter turn radius?
Let’s say the pilot is flying horizontal turn on the edge of the stall. If pilot add little bit more elevator input, the main wing maximum AoA exceed and wing will stall.
Now, how could elevator trim improve your turning radius?
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HMMMMMMM, ya know zaphod you might have a very good point!!
humbly take back all my 'know it all' gibberish then.
:o
my explanation is certainly what happens in real life.
If the trim tabs dont exist, whats the point in us even having a trim function?
if trim tabs are not modeled independantly, then WHY not?? :D
ill think harder next time, before i post, i geuss.
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Originally posted by Xjazz
I forget to add
You said tighter? You mean tighter turn radius?
Let’s say the pilot is flying horizontal turn on the edge of the stall. If pilot add little bit more elevator input, the main wing maximum AoA exceed and wing will stall.
Now, how could elevator trim improve your turning radius?
i forgot to add 'instant' before turn radius. my bad. it wasnt regarding sustained turns.
IE: on a merge, you will turn/loop faster/tighter with the elevs trimmed up.
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On high speed with 109k4 and ki84 i can not pull into blackout with the auto trim feature turned on.
If i fly the same high speed but with elev trimmed up i can pull into blackout.
Now, my personal understanding:
blackout-> higher g than not blacked out-> tighter turn.
So at high speeds there are some planes where you need to trim in addition to full joystick deflection for better turn radius.
That maneuvering at that high speeds cost a lot of E, is not used in fighting or does not make much sense on top of does not make a diffrence for aircombat since you should maneuver at diffrent speed altogether is another point.
I totally agree that the combat trim works great for anyone, eaven experienced players, and everyone starting the game should use it. Only thing i say is that manually overriding combat trim in some few situations can give a slight advantage.
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Most guys I know don't use Man. trim and I've gotten to fight some pretty good ones. Even if it does help ever so slightly in turning, 99.9999% of the time it isn't going to help you win a fight. That normally comes down to who rides the stall better, takes the angles and manages flaps/throttle.
Skev, the advice I'd give you is get the throttle, flaps and everything else down 1st. Then if you feel the need to push your skill "to the next level" then maybe look up someone to teach you man. trim. I feel the only way to get to different levels is to train with many different people and pick it up from them. If one guy can't help or describe it for ya, move on to the next.
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I just found this from Lephturn's Aerodrome. It looks very good detail article on AH trim:
http://users.eastlink.ca/~sconrad/trim.htm
Gunner
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I leave combat trim on most of the time .. (it auto resets to on everytime you push shft x , x or alt x ) It resets my tabs .. a quick cntl x and it off .
some planes improve without trim on .. others well .. can become floppy fish
I dont think it matters that much except for pinpoint Jabo drops and digging the nose outta the dirt .. atleast til your ready for the next level of ACM
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Originally posted by Schutt
On high speed with 109k4 and ki84 i can not pull into blackout with the auto trim feature turned on.
If i fly the same high speed but with elev trimmed up i can pull into blackout.
Now, my personal understanding:
blackout-> higher g than not blacked out-> tighter turn.
So at high speeds there are some planes where you need to trim in addition to full joystick deflection for better turn radius.
That maneuvering at that high speeds cost a lot of E, is not used in fighting or does not make much sense on top of does not make a diffrence for aircombat since you should maneuver at diffrent speed altogether is another point.
I totally agree that the combat trim works great for anyone, eaven experienced players, and everyone starting the game should use it. Only thing i say is that manually overriding combat trim in some few situations can give a slight advantage.
I agree with that schutt....thats one of the few times I go with manual trim when flying something other than a p38. In other words to pull out of dive at high speeds. I don't normally think to use it for high speed turning as if I am that fast then I have other options open to me ... usually.
But as far as using it to increase max sustained turn radius at anything less than "lockup" speed or thereabouts I'm not sure that works. Again I'm basing this on what I "think" I remember in HT's post regarding that and seeing the trim controls work the actual surfaces rather than trim tabs.
For the record I have tried doing this but all it ever seems to do for me is increase my chances of stalling a wing or snap stalling.
Zaphod
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
HMMMMMMM, ya know zaphod you might have a very good point!!
humbly take back all my 'know it all' gibberish then.
:o
my explanation is certainly what happens in real life.
If the trim tabs dont exist, whats the point in us even having a trim function?
if trim tabs are not modeled independantly, then WHY not?? :D
ill think harder next time, before i post, i geuss.
I don't think its gibberish at all. I really would have zero idea about a real plane anyway lol.
I will say this about it, if it seems to work for some folks then it certainly is worth trying out. It could be joystick related, or it could be that the extra sensitivity works well for some. Even if it's just a placebo effect then it still has merit as it increases confidence and alot of fights are won or lost psychologically anyway.
It could also be that your dead right too :)
Zaphod
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I thought someone in the past tested elevator trim in turns and revealed that it was false that it made any difference.
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
regardless of what anyone here says.....NO ONE can deny that using the trim tabs will tighten your turns and get more out of your aircraft in any given scenario.
Hitech would.
Elevators only have "x" degrees of deflection. You pull max deflection it stops at "x" degrees. Now setting TRIM to elevator up may ease the control and forces on the elevators, but they will never exceed "x" degrees. So full trim "up" and full deflection up is no greater than full deflection up and neutral trim.
It might handle better but it will not turn any better.
EDIT: Combat Trim works to level out the plane, so if you're anything other than level you're fighting it (slightly). This means that it dampens elevator control, especially on planes with strong elevator control (k-4, ki84, p38, to name a few!) and severely limits their ability to pull manuvers. Some planes aren't as badly affected (spits love combat trim, 190s do okay with it at times).
Just an aside to other comments on the matter.
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Originally posted by Zaphod
I don't think its gibberish at all. I really would have zero idea about a real plane anyway lol.
If the truth be known most A4M Skyhawk pilots trimmed a hair nose low in case they got jumped. Reason being you unloaded more quickly. As far as, actual trimming of the jet...it had no autopilot so you trimmed level flight then if you touched the stick, for any reason, you had to retrim. Every single time. If you went cross country you'd jam your elbow low against your side and trim the jet so you could hold it with your fingertips with no pressure. Other than nose low I'm pretty sure no one ever trimmed for a dogfight. Kinda makes ya wonder where all the AH trimming is from...:) Hope this helps.
Zaphod
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i have come to realise that Aceshigh trim and real life trim are totaly different. never the less i still know for a fact that my trimmed out F4U beats a spit16 far easier than combat trimmed.
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It also helps when flying a fully loaded P-47,the use of trim control allows the nose of the aircraft to rise and climb way better than just using auto-climb.When turning around the use of aileron trim allows the pilot to turn his or her plane with out moving the stick and doesn't cause the plane to lose speed because of flat turning.
If you are flying level at full speed and you pull straight up with combat trim the plane will travel farther then start it's climb,if you do the same manuver with trim fully extended it goes straight up right then and there.The 190 is the best plane to try this manuver in,i have made it go from 2-K all the way up too 8-k before it even starts too stall.
I believe in showing new people or anybody for that matter these manuver's for it makes for a better fight when you encounter someone.
But then again that's just my thoughts on it.
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Item 1: How to use trim.
When trim is set correctly, you should be able to center the stick and have a neutral nose (where it does not pitch, roll, or yaw. When airspeed increases, lift increases, so you would trim elevators down to keep the nose neutral. The torque of your engine and prop is a force acting on your plane. As you increase power, you increase torque, so you would trim aelirons to keep the plane from rolling when you center the stick. Another force that affects roll is center of gravity. If you are carrying an external payload that is not on the centerline of your plane, that will have to be compesated for with aeliron trim. Rudder trim is usually not needed in an undamaged plane.
Item 2: Manual trim "turns better" than combat trim.
True in part-
First lets consider high speed situations with a couple points considered. One: To simulate high load forces transfered from the control surface to the stick, AH will not let the stick respond when it is "heavier" than what the pilot can pull.
Two: Combat trim will trim elevators down as speed increases to try to keep the nose "neutral"
So when you are at a high speed with a high physical load needed to operate the stick, you are trying to pull up (and it wont let you) while CT is trimming down
Which goes to Schutt's example.
Now lets consider instantainious and sustained turns. As mentioned before, CT adjust elevator trim according to your speed. Lets compair what CT is doing to the elevators, to what you are doing with them in a turn. You pull a hard break turn and settle in a sustained turn. To do that, you pull back on the stick up to the point where you feel the onset of the stall, and ease off a tiny bit, and try to hold your elevator angle just below either blackout speed, or stall speed. As you slow even further, you will have to adjust your bank angle because the slower you get, the less bank angle you have avalible.
If you have CT on, it is adding another varible to what you need to do with the stick. As you slow CT is trimming more elevator. So as you are trying to pull the max elevator angle just short of stalling, CT keeps adding more elevator in spite of your efforts. Furthermore, CT does not act instantainous. With a fast speed change CT ends up chasing the proper trim setting.
I have no doubt that a player can get used to performing sustained turns with CT just as tight as a player not using CT. However, I am not convinced that CT does not (slightly) hamper instantanious turn rate due to its not keeping up to changing conditions.
Item 3: Trimming elevator tabs up will give you tighter turns.
With the exception of the high speed/high stickload case. False. The stall happens at the wing. It does not matter if you reach that stall angle with stick only, trim only, or anywhere in between. The max lift avalible from the wing is still the same
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Originally posted by Murdr
Item 1: How to use trim.
When trim is set correctly, you should be able to center the stick and have a neutral nose (where it does not pitch, roll, or yaw. When airspeed increases, lift increases, so you would trim elevators down to keep the nose neutral. The torque of your engine and prop is a force acting on your plane. As you increase power, you increase torque, so you would trim aelirons to keep the plane from rolling when you center the stick. Another force that affects roll is center of gravity. If you are carrying an external payload that is not on the centerline of your plane, that will have to be compesated for with aeliron trim. Rudder trim is usually not needed in an undamaged plane.
This is nice if you're looking for the nice realism of flying a plane from point to point, kinda like an airline pilot, going from Newark to Chicago but is a waste of time in a fight
Item 2: Manual trim "turns better" than combat trim.
True in part-
First lets consider high speed situations with a couple points considered. One: To simulate high load forces transfered from the control surface to the stick, AH will not let the stick respond when it is "heavier" than what the pilot can pull.
Two: Combat trim will trim elevators down as speed increases to try to keep the nose "neutral"
So when you are at a high speed with a high physical load needed to operate the stick, you are trying to pull up (and it wont let you) while CT is trimming down
Neither examples listed above hold water. Reason being tuck under is not modeled and for some planes, even with CT on, the nose will automatically rise as the speed increases.
Which goes to Schutt's example.
Now lets consider instantainious and sustained turns. As mentioned before, CT adjust elevator trim according to your speed. Lets compair what CT is doing to the elevators, to what you are doing with them in a turn. You pull a hard break turn and settle in a sustained turn. To do that, you pull back on the stick up to the point where you feel the onset of the stall, and ease off a tiny bit, and try to hold your elevator angle just below either blackout speed, or stall speed. As you slow even further, you will have to adjust your bank angle because the slower you get, the less bank angle you have avalible.
If you have CT on, it is adding another varible to what you need to do with the stick. As you slow CT is trimming more elevator. So as you are trying to pull the max elevator angle just short of stalling, CT keeps adding more elevator in spite of your efforts. Furthermore, CT does not act instantainous. With a fast speed change CT ends up chasing the proper trim setting.
I have no doubt that a player can get used to performing sustained turns with CT just as tight as a player not using CT. However, I am not convinced that CT does not (slightly) hamper instantanious turn rate due to its not keeping up to changing conditions.
Again your arguement seems true but not necessaily so. If you set your stick to mimick a real planes stick/control surface movement you will find that you have full control over the aircraft within the full spectrum of stick to control surface movement and you can easily adjust the input required to hold the back edge of the flight envelope. The actual throw you put into the stick will instantly be transmitted to the control surfaces.
Why would you say "as you slow the CT is trimming in more back stick"? If you are controlling how much input is going to the control surfaces then as you slow you will also be adjusting that same input required to maintain the back angle you desire by moving the stick that amount. But only up to the point that you exceed the power requirement for the angle of bank in the turn. Unlike 1 to 1 power ratio + jets the nose will begin to drop below the horizon or you will pull enough to exceed the angle of attack. While I know autopilots will chase speeds when in mountain wave it is not the case with CT and turns.
Item 3: Trimming elevator tabs up will give you tighter turns.
With the exception of the high speed/high stickload case. False. The stall happens at the wing. It does not matter if you reach that stall angle with stick only, trim only, or anywhere in between. The max lift avalible from the wing is still the same
I haven't figured out how most folks don't know when the control surface has been moved all the way to the stops that you will not actually get a more tighter turn than having trim tabs. At slow speed the trim tabs don't provide much lift and high speeds the pressure from the air over the control surfaces subdue any possible "instaneous" no more than pull the stick to its stops. As far as stall angle, you can exceed the angle of attack at any speed. Higher speeds just means its called an accelerated stall. We actually teach that in the TA so folks can understand what causes the onset of it and how to recover from one immediately.
Suggestion: if you are fairly new to flying in AH2 do not worry about manual trimming. The auto trim feature of the game does an excellent job of making the game easier to learn. Once you begin to get comfortable with your flying abilities and want to experiment with some of the features, by all means, do so. However, just like a child you gotta learn to crawl, then walk then you can learn to run. This game offers a lot of fun at the expense of a steep learning curve but the rewards are pretty high.
Hope this helps.
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This is nice if you're looking for the nice realism of flying a plane from point to point, kinda like an airline pilot, going from Newark to Chicago but is a waste of time in a fight
I believe the question was what the purpose of rudder and trim use was it not? Basic question, basic answer.
Neither examples listed above hold water. Reason being tuck under is not modeled and for some planes, even with CT on, the nose will automatically rise as the speed increases.
Yes, the nose will rise in some planes even with CT on when the speed goes beyond the range of the trim. It depends on what the airframe in question is. The 109 did get a heavy stick.. The P38 on the other hand had a 'tuck under' force from compression. In either case, you can manually trim out. In other airframes the lift produced exceeds the bottom range of the trim...Some times even exceeding the range of the whole elevator.
As I said, "true in part" as in, not in all cases. The fact that airframes react differently to hight speeds in no way impunes the examples I gave.
Again your arguement seems true but not necessaily so. If you set your stick to mimick a real planes stick/control surface movement you will find that you have full control over the aircraft within the full spectrum of stick to control surface movement and you can easily adjust the input required to hold the back edge of the flight envelope. The actual throw you put into the stick will instantly be transmitted to the control surfaces.
Aces high does not actually have trim tabs. When you adjust the 'trim' in AH, it moves the resting point of the stick (and therefore control surfaces) in the game. Fly out of trim in the game, look at the stick at its current rest point, now hit combat trim, and watch the stick jump to a new rest point. The simulated trim IS actually moving the rest point of the simulated control surfaces, and therefore DOES actually add elevator while you hold your stick at a constant point when slowing in a turn.
I haven't figured out how most folks don't wknow when the control surface has been moved all the way to the stops that you will actually get a more tighter turn.
If you cant take my word for it, what about this guy?
Originally posted by hitech
Close , in AH it will always give you full diflection as long as you are not limited by stick force. Hence why trim can help pull out of high speed dives. But at slower speeds where it is not limited by stick force, you can always get full diflection nomatter where the trim is set.
And it is imposible to duplicate a real trim system with normal joy sticks. In most planes trim effectivly moves the center postion of the stick. No way to do that with a spring return to center stick.
HiTech
Originally posted by hitech
Modas, isn't a matter of calibration. In a real plane say it is out of trim. And to fly level you are holding the stick 1/2 way back. To trim the plane you move the trim tab to take the pressure off the stick. But when you have it trimed with no pressure, the stick is still 1/2 way back and you can take your hand off it, and it will stay there.
Now with a computer joy stick let say you have the same condition as above. As you trim the plane you will have to move it forward to its center position to maintain the same flight path.
This is what can not be changed via software, because when ever you let go of the stick, it will always spring back to center.
Your request of changing the calibration center is pretty much what AH does now.
The first point in my post was to the original poster, the second and third were related to the other discussions going on. I am not trying to discourage use of Combat Trim. In fact I also encourage any fairly new player to take advantage of it while learning the game. I also seperated opionated commets by posting them in black. I fail to see what blue text was incorrect.
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Yep..too many years in big jets...you trim stick pressure to center the stick. When the plane is in trim for any given angle or level flight the stick is center. In fact, you can trim in perfect GS on an ILS approach and fly it hands off to the flare with stick perfectly centered.
As far as that guy? He flies lil planes :)
Cheapy light plane sims at your local FBO are spring loaded not real jets. :)
As far as rudder and trim use I believe it was put forth in the context for combat flight and not a leisurely cross country ride.
And the rise and tuck of a plane does, in fact, negate it as an example as there is no tuck under modeled in the game nor does it happen, even in the 38.
Also, trimming, in the game, allows you to bring your control column to center and allows you to maintain angle while flying hands off. It doesn't really matter where it shows it is as long as its doing what you want at the time. The total throw of the control surface remains the same no matter where you have it trimmed. And, why would you want to fly a plane out of trim to that extent except its nice to hold it so you are in a max unloaded position when it's released. Seeing as how this is a game that isn't as necessary as some would think.
So yeah, you don't get a tighter turn.
And that's why I contend you're comments, while a discussion, do not accurately reflect the trim available/not available and do no more than add to the confusion of a new pilot just trying to get his feet wet.
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what's with all the book writing?Nothing like trying to confuse a new pilot.
wtg guys awesome job.
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My point exactly.....trace my replies back up the thread. It was meant to give the new pilot a place to start, nothing more. Instead it becomes a hijacked "why is there air" thread with everyone tossing out the history of the earth and big bang theory...if you get my drift.
Again, the original statement was made asking the straight forward statement about why's of rudder and trim use. And, a few straight foward answers to the question were given perfectly without confusing the new pilot.
The rest was pure personal taste. While that's nice it just adds confusion instead of "here's the answer now go try it out".
An old flight saying was told in its most basic form; "Pull stick back, houses get smaller. Pull stick back more, houses get bigger". Pretty simple and very easy to understand.
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Oh well, I reserve the right to post the history of the world when someone else gives an inaccurate version. The waters were muddied long before I got here. I guess Ill just stop at that rather than go into snide remarks about backseat moderating and the use of email to send information to the person who asked for it.
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Sounds great but I don't think they particularly asked for what you plan on sending them if yer refering to yer posts :D