Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StSanta on February 04, 2006, 10:33:57 AM
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It's kinda escalating. The Syrians have burned the Danish embassy (building also houses Chilean embassy and Swedish embassy) to the ground after "overwhelming" the police presence there.
Link (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/04/syria.cartoon.ap/index.html)
Hamas, in its usual fashion, is calling out for the death of Danes. Then they turn around and say "we still want those 600 million EU dollars".
Same elsewhere.
Will cooler heads prevail? I don't know, but I think it has so much momentum now that it'll take a while to calm down.
All because here, in a free country, we did something our freedoms allow. We haven't pissed in their back yard - they're trying to rearrange ours.
Who should be angry, really?
Despite unwavering Danish support for the various American missions (Afghanistan and Iraq), the US hasn't actively supported Denmark. The state department even comes close to siding with the Jihadists:
State Department criticizes Muhammad cartoons (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3634257.html)
Surprisingly, anti-Iraq war France and Germany has shown to be our biggest supporters as far as states go.
On an individual level, I've received messages from a lot of Americans expressing support. Knowing the American mindset, I sincerely hope this represents the majority of people in that nation.
To use a Bushism - you're either with us or against us in this. What say you?
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Well, you could stop the problem in it's tracks very quickly. Simply renounce Westernism and convert immediately to islam. Make sure you pick the most orthodox reactionary version. I'm sure the muslims in the ME will embrace you immediately and colonise the country you used to own.
It was a bit tongue in cheek but I'm sure that there are those calling for violence towards Danes that would find that to be the only acceptable (to them) solution. Either that or burnm your entire country to the ground and remove the infidels from the face of the earth to spread the peace of islam.
As for me personally, I think the muslims need to understand that they are not the only group of humans and certainly not the only society on this lil ball of dirt and get over it. I found the cartoons to be far far less offensive that the beheading of hostages. taking of hostages, bombing of people (and mosques to boot) and several other types of behavior that now seem to be the "hallmark" of islam.
If GOD was offended, don't you think that as GOD, HE has enough power to show HIS displeasure all by HIMSELF???? I don't recall HIM apointing any group as HIS spokesman to include muslims.
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Wonder how long Hammas will be in power?
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This guy - an American living in Copenhagen - has a lot of interesting commentary on the recent events.
http://moronabroad.blogspot.com/
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Lets see if Syrian leaders will apologize in the behalf of their citizens.
No muslim or property was harmed with the cartoons.
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They attacked our embassy too.. in Damaskus. The local police held the demonstrators at bay for some time, but they were overrun. It totally trashed but nobody was there so nobody got hurt.
They attacked screaming "allah akbar" or whatever. They were prolly soccer fans cause they were outa control and on their worst behavior.
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if they keep it up, we should trash a few mosques in every city around the world (when they are empty so no one is hurt, of course!)
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Yea, except then they'd start frothing even more.
In spite of the fact that Muslims live in some of the poorest, ****kickerist countries in the world, they are of the opinion that anything Islam is worth more than everything of anything else.
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I'm not really sure of what to think. For once the europeans stepped up with a pair of balls. But now there are threats to get hit pretty hard.
Will they get hit? Will they stick the course?
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You euros better learn how to squat before allah pretty. they are taking over.
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The big question is does the civilized world accept this behavior or do we all, together, turn towards them and shout "Get a life. It was a cartoon."
I think the US response was poor; oh, Billy C can tell everyone it was intolerant and bad to make fun of poor wittle Mohammed the dead guy; that's fine. But the US government should have had both sides in it's response. Something about being in bad taste to make fun of religion BUT incredibly wrong to resort to violence about a bloody cartoon, while pointing out that the US holds free speech and freedom of the press as one of it's highest goals and values.
It doesn't pay to kiss their fanny on this. It enables and emboldens them.
I stand with the Danes and all the rest. It's freedom of speech and freedom of the press, issues that are the very first order of business in the US Bill of Rights. The Muslims can go take a flying... er... leap.... at a rolling donut on this one.
That said, I think this will continue to escalate for a bit. It's always useful to have the anger of your poor, uneducated masses focused AWAY from the inept governments that keep them that way for as long as possible.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm not really sure of what to think. For once the europeans stepped up with a pair of balls. But now there are threats to get hit pretty hard.
Will they get hit? Will they stick the course?
We stepped up before your nation was even born so pipe down dingy boy :D
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Originally posted by Toad
The Muslims can go take a flying... er... leap.... at a rolling donut on this one.
don't give 'em donuts
allah akbar - BITE ME!
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ST.
I wouldn't assume that America doesn't support the cause of the danes just because the state dept doesn't. I think the majority of Americans would stand behind this.......IF it made it into the MSM. Most of the right of center blogger community is behind them.
http://media.michellemalkin.com/firsttheycame0545.wmv
From http://www.michellemalkin.com
Michelle Malkin has been running with the story all week.
I hardly think many Americans at all are supporting these type of people
(http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r1363645636.jpg)
(http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060203/capt.llp12602031854.britain_denmark_europe_llp126.jpg)
(http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060203/capt.llp11802031632.britain_prophet_drawings_llp118.jpg)
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Despite unwavering Danish support for the various American missions (Afghanistan and Iraq), the US hasn't actively supported Denmark. The state department even comes close to siding with the Jihadists:
I think you will find many Americans supporting the Danish newspaper right to publish the cartoons. I have not seen what the cartoons look like so I can not make any comments of supporting it or not.
No matter what the majority of Americans may feel about the situtation, the state department has no choice but to remain neutual in the matter otherwise it would complicate things in Iraq and Afghanistan. If they were to support the publishing of the cartoons, we would lose local support in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we side against publishing the cartoons we lose Danish support, possibly others. At this point there is nothing to gain politically by siding with one or the other... It's best to remain neutral....
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While the US denouncing the cartoons pissed me off at first, it was actually a smart move.
No other country in the world has close to 200,000 troops right in the middle east. They're pissed at us for kicking out a genocidal maniac. Imagine how pissed they'd be for insulting Muhammed.
The US will not step into this one unless attacked.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
if they keep it up, we should trash a few mosques in every city around the world (when they are empty so no one is hurt, of course!)
sounds good to me, time to get a little "respect"
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Originally posted by soda72
I think you will find many Americans supporting the Danish newspaper right to publish the cartoons. I have not seen what the cartoons look like so I can not make any comments of supporting it or not.
No matter what the majority of Americans may feel about the situtation, the state department has no choice but to remain neutual in the matter otherwise it would complicate things in Iraq and Afghanistan. If they were to support the publishing of the cartoons, we would lose local support in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we side against publishing the cartoons we lose Danish support, possibly others. At this point there is nothing to gain politically by siding with one or the other... It's best to remain neutral....
This one's my favorite
(http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/danish005.jpg)
You can find most of them here: http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004413.htm
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cheekboness ... over a cartoon ... crazed, ignorant, possibly brain washed cheekboness..
don't they think allah has a sense of humor?
he has to when he looks down and see "his ppl" doing such stupid things in his name...
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
This one's my favorite
Thanks Gun
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Islam is peace!
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Are you sure its a smart thing to post here gunslinger?
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Hey...since they don't have a picture or drawing of Mohammed...how do they know the guy in the cartoons is him? Are they all het up about nuthin'?
Also, on the "out of virgins" cartoon, I thought all the peace-loving Islamicists were against suicide bombing of innocents... so why would they be P.O.'d at that one? Shouldn't they be supporting/applauding that one?
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Originally posted by Toad
Are they all het up about nuthin'?
After looking at the cartoons, it appears that way to me...
It's hard to believe they would burn down someones embassy overs those cartoons..
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
ST.
I wouldn't assume that America doesn't support the cause of the danes just because the state dept doesn't. I think the majority of Americans would stand behind this...
I totally agree, at least if WW2 flight sim community is any indictation. I find your State Dept's position baffling, in the context of your Executive's policy regarding the "Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism, or whatever it's called. Here is a perfect example of western freedom against violent extremism. I wonder if the State Dept didn't consult with Bush before stating it's position.
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Originally posted by john9001
sounds good to me, time to get a little "respect"
I think it'd be easier to achieve by pouring pig fat on the mosques.
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KILL `EM ALL
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
KILL `EM ALL
Metallica fan?
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.. to your left, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, circa 2006..
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I stand with the Danes and Europe on this one.......dang that hurt!! (j/k!! :D)
I dont really see the big deal over those cartoons, they are just cartoons after all. Those people are getting all worked up over cartoons, yet it is acceptable for hostages to be taken, then beheaded. Suicide bombers kill Muslim children while trying to kill Americans.
The Western nations need to stand as one on this issue imo. Who do the Muslims think they are that they can tell other countries what cartoons are acceptable and what ones arent?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
... I find your State Dept's position baffling, in the context of your Executive's policy regarding the "Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism, or whatever it's called. Here is a perfect example of western freedom against violent extremism. ...
As sad as this may sound, the following is not sarcasm...
What we have here is the factoring in of one of the largest, most overwhelming, and scary of the sub-cultures we have in America.
The Politically Correct Faction.
It's ok in their minds to wipe out hundreds of innocents with collateral damage. That's part of war.. it's ok.
It's fine to retaliate against a military act of aggression. Kill thousands of your own troops to depose a 'regime'.. that's perfectly fine.
But, whatever you do, for GOD's SAKE, don't hurt anybody's FEELINGS!!!
They'll sue. They'll litigate. They'll make the hardest of the educational superintendants a mass of quivering goo in the face of their onslaught of equality and 'fairness'.
They will bring upon the forces that will force the BOY scouts to accept GIRLS.
They will prevent any rewards to children that actually excel, because those that don't might feel bad.
They will block the usage of a religious specific term, in the fear that those who don't follow the same beliefs will, somehow, become convinced they are put upon and oppressed.
So.. wage war for no real reason, slaughter people by the thousands, but, whatever you do, those you are pounding MUST feel good about themselves.
:huh
We are sooooooo doomed..
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Originally posted by APDrone
As sad as this may sound, the following is not sarcasm...
What we have here is the factoring in of one of the largest, most overwhelming, and scary of the sub-cultures we have in America.
The Politically Correct Faction.
It's ok in their minds to wipe out hundreds of innocents with collateral damage. That's part of war.. it's ok.
It's fine to retaliate against a military act of aggression. Kill thousands of your own troops to depose a 'regime'.. that's perfectly fine.
But, whatever you do, for GOD's SAKE, don't hurt anybody's FEELINGS!!!
They'll sue. They'll litigate. They'll make the hardest of the educational superintendants a mass of quivering goo in the face of their onslaught of equality and 'fairness'.
They will bring upon the forces that will force the BOY scouts to accept GIRLS.
They will prevent any rewards to children that actually excel, because those that don't might feel bad.
They will block the usage of a religious specific term, in the fear that those who don't follow the same beliefs will, somehow, become convinced they are put upon and oppressed.
So.. wage war for no real reason, slaughter people by the thousands, but, whatever you do, those you are pounding MUST feel good about themselves.
:huh
We are sooooooo doomed..
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Metallica fan?
Daily KOS fan.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
We stepped up before your nation was even born so pipe down dingy boy :D
Then why are we the oldest Democracy in the world?:p
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Hate to burst your bubble... the U.S. isn't a democracy.
It is simply to big for a democracy to function.
So who thinks the Europeans will come to the conclusion that G.W. has come to (and I agree with) that the only way to solve the problem of offending the Muslims is to occupy their countries and forcibly turn them away from ignorance?
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How come the arabs arent upset over the anti USA , anti Jewish cartoons they publish everyday?
And what is with being upset over Allah wearing a bomb in a cartoon then threatening to use bombs?
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These people think childlike naive thoughts. They do not use logic and they're 100% controlled by religious leaders.
Just like christians were around 10-11th century. Coincidentally crusades happened.
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Originally posted by StSanta
To use a Bushism - you're either with us or against us in this. What say you?
With
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What, is everyone here retarded?
I explained the reason why the State Department said what it said.
I'll quote myself for those too mentally incompetant to find it themselves.
While the US denouncing the cartoons pissed me off at first, it was actually a smart move.
No other country in the world has close to 200,000 troops right in the middle east. They're pissed at us for kicking out a genocidal maniac. Imagine how pissed they'd be for insulting Muhammed.
The US will not step into this one unless attacked.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Hate to burst your bubble... the U.S. isn't a democracy.
It is simply to big for a democracy to function.
So who thinks the Europeans will come to the conclusion that G.W. has come to (and I agree with) that the only way to solve the problem of offending the Muslims is to occupy their countries and forcibly turn them away from ignorance?
Oh thats right I forgot...the Democrats are dog meat.
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The United States Department of State has been infested with candy tulips who bend over backwards for any Muslim or Middle Eastern country, on any issue, regardless of the validity of their position. It's been that way for DECADES.
I was saddened by the fact that Colin Powell did not clean house when he was appointed, and even more disappointed that Condoleeza Rice has not, and pissed of that Bush hasn't pushed the issue. The Department of State has not reflected the feelings of the country for decades.
The country is solidly behind the Europeans. Well except for that one segment of the population, and they know who they are, who go about apologizing to every simpering slob who professes to be offended at anything and everything, regardless of how true it is.
Those here you cannot count on for support are those same people who feel it is okay to display, in a public school, a Jewish religious symbols during Jewish religous holidays, and Mulsim religious symbols during Muslim religious holidays, but you better not EVER display a Nativity scene at CHRISTmas.
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An arab bomber kills 40 at a funeral in Iraq.... "Oh that's a shame, they shouldn't have done that."
An american threatens to place the holy book in a toilet. .... "HALALALALALALA!"
Arab sucide bombers kill 30 something at a wedding in Jordan... "Oh that's not cool, that's not what islam is about."
A Dane draws a caricature of Muhammed... "HALALALALALALA!"
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The United States Department of State has been infested with candy tulips who bend over backwards for any Muslim or Middle Eastern country, on any issue, regardless of the validity of their position. It's been that way for DECADES.
I was saddened by the fact that Colin Powell did not clean house when he was appointed, and even more disappointed that Condoleeza Rice has not, and pissed of that Bush hasn't pushed the issue. The Department of State has not reflected the feelings of the country for decades.
The country is solidly behind the Europeans. Well except for that one segment of the population, and they know who they are, who go about apologizing to every simpering slob who professes to be offended at anything and everything, regardless of how true it is.
.....
I've heard the same about the State Dept. At one time I thought they would reflect whichever party is in the majority. I guess not.
With or against the Danes? With.
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Originally posted by Suave
An arab bomber kills 40 at a funeral in Iraq.... "Oh that's a shame, they shouldn't have done that."
An american threatens to place the holy book in a toilet. .... "HALALALALALALA!"
Arab sucide bombers kill 30 something at a wedding in Jordan... "Oh that's not cool, that's not what islam is about."
A Dane draws a caricature of Muhammed... "HALALALALALALA!"
Very hard to decifer the thought processes of the savage.
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Originally posted by StSanta
snip
To use a Bushism - you're either with us or against us in this. What say you?
Good lord, man :rolleyes:
How many times do we have to prove that when the shooting starts, we'll be there to finish it?
Diplomacy is all bull**** anyway, don't sweat what the friggin' DoS weenies say.
culero (in case you didn't notice, we're already fighting them)
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Originally posted by Slash27
Very hard to decifer the thought processes of the savage.
HEY! I am THE SaVaGe. Now that you mention it, some people have trouble following my thought patterns though.
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NZ newspapers have published it (seems like the media globally is taking a stand), will be interesting... the Muslim community here is small, any such protests would likely attract a direct response .
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Hi All,
I'm currently reading my way through Wallid Phares, excellent book Future Jihad. Phares, who is Lebanese, is currently MSNBC/NBCs terrorism expert, he advised the 9/11 commission, is a senior fellow with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. Phares leads off his book with a warning that for several years now the West has been attempting to "redefine" Jihad away from its historic meaning, and to explain it away as benign and spiritual. Having been raised in the Middle East himself, he recognized that this "spiritual" view of Jihad being actively peddled in the West was not the view of Jihad the predominates in the Middle East, for instance he writes:
In most literature, scholarly articles, public lectures, and lobbying and social efforts related to the Middle East politics, as well as religious studies and interfaith activities, there was a constant attempt to portray Jihad as a spiritual phenomenon that could be and was abused by extremist ideologies and radical political factions who were making it into something it really was not. In the early 1990s, I was stunned to read and hear the Western establishment making these tremendous efforts to convince audiences and readers of the benign character of jihad; in the Middle East, for the most part, the term retained its age-old, unreconstructed meanings. Jihad is not benign, and the West's denial of that fact was terrible ironic. By instinct and as a result of my personal and professional background, I realized the enormity of what was happening: The United States was paving the way for its own defeat, by blurring its vision, confusing its mind, and moderating its reactions to the early danger signs, not to mention the terrorist strikes to come.
What we are seeing in the violent reactions within the Umma to these cartoons, is the real, unreconstructed, historic face of Islam and the longer we go on peddling this ridiculous notion that at heart it is a peaceful, moderate to liberal religion that will tolerate dissension, permit other religions to proselytize within its "bounds" and turn the other cheek when criticized or ridiculed, the more certain that we will eventually lose the war the Jihadis have declared on us. You don't coexist peacefully with Islam, you either convert, submit to being a subjugated third class citizen, or you die. Those are the only three options that have ever historically been offered. In a sense, the blind seething hatred that has been unleashed on the west in the wake of the Cartoons, the election of Hamas, the massacre of schoolchildren in Beslan, and the ongoing "we will develop and use Nuclear weapons to kill you all" stance of Iran might actually be a good thing if they cause a few people in the West to wake up to the true nature of Islam.
Please understand me, I wouldn't make the above observations about any other world religion. Even those that do persecute on occasion, tend to do so in an unsystematic fashion, and not in pursuit of violent world conquest. Islam is thoroughly different, it is an ideology of conquest, domination, and subjugation by any means necessary. Either the civil magistrates in the West begin to actively resist its expansion, or we get used to the idea that someday our children may have to choose between converting to Islam or submitting to Dhimmitude. I don't know many fathers here who would be wild about their daughters or grand-daughters living the rest of their lives under a Burka or a Hijab, unable to even go outside unless they are escorted by a close male relative, and yet that is the reality that some of my friends who live in Muslim nations like Pakistan have had to deal with, don't think for a moment that it couldn't also become the reality of life in Europe.
- SEAGOON
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.... more Mohammed cartoons.
Cartoon them back to the stone age feral dogs that they are, I say.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
What, is everyone here retarded?
I explained the reason why the State Department said what it said.
I'll quote myself for those too mentally incompetant to find it themselves.
I'm sure that most of the other posters here also realise that you're young and semi-educated, so they probably aren't really offended either.
Here's a word to the wise, though: get over yourself.
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What I want to see:
Kidnap a radical muslim Imam during ramadan, and shoot a crappy home video of him tied on the floor. Hooded rednecks will be in the background holding beer and eating something greasy while daylight clearly shines in through the window. Behind them on the wall will be hung at least one sports illustrated swimsuit issue pinup and the the URL http://www.playboy.com.
A long boring statement of why NASCAR and those half-naked girls that hold the numbers between boxing rounds are a good idea will be read, followed by a reading of the US constitution and every amendment. At the end of the statement, the bound and blindfolded Imam will be asked to renounce Jihad and embrace cultural relativism. If he refuses, a hooters girl will sneak up behind him and give him a tequilla shooter with a beer chaser. He'll also be dressed in a hawaiian shirt and a hat that says "god is great and Earnhardt is his prophet".
The video will be released on the intarweb and Fox will of course run it after stating that they have no idea who sent them the tape and are so sorry they can't possibly help find the people who filmed it.
The Imam will be found a week later drunk and passed out in an Arabic public marketplace with a tattoo of Muhammed on his left shoulder, a half-empty MGD in his hand, a compact book of Mormon in his pocket, and a mickey mouse hat duct-taped to his head. His finger and toenails will be painted pink and his beard will have been shaven.
And every time a hostage is taken and killed or beheaded, we should repeat this general gameplan. Variations include simply taking the kidnap subject to disneyland or the coors bottling plant, videotaping the trip, and sending a copy of the tape to his entire family. They need to know that torture and terror works both ways!
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LMAO!
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Originally posted by eagl
What I want to see:
Kidnap a radical muslim Imam during ramadan, and shoot a crappy home video of him tied on the floor.
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962)."
I am in awe of your ability to totally miss the point.
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Hey Eegl,
Funny stuff indeed, you are to be complimented for your creativity, I kept waiting for mention of a link sausage necklace however.
The only problem is that such a video would cause the such a wave of outrage in our own media that we'd probably never recover. Not to mention what would happen in the Islamic world - that would make the burning of the Danish embassy seem like a picnic. You see that's the big difference, Daniel Berg has his head sawn off in a graphic video shown by Arab media and there is nothing more than a collective yawn or simple approval in the Middle East. Another infidel got what he deserved, whats the big deal? But there's a report that pages from the Quran were destroyed or cartoons featuring Mohammed are published and instantly a firestorm spreads throughout the Dar-El-Islam. If we stopped for a second to consider, "Hey, the lives of my entire family are worth less to the umma than a single page from a cheap paperback copy of the Quran" then we might take our "situation" more seriously.
- SEAGOON
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Oh, that's it Vor. Insult my intelect by pretending a person younger then you is dumber then you. By doing this, you'll pretend all your problems away!
Fact of the matter is, I am right.
Let me emphasize this point for you, and then you can try to refute it if you would like.
I AM RIGHT.
It is now up to you to prove me wrong. Any attempt by you to further degrade me, or even to try to insult me will immediately, and automatically prove that I am right. Hell, you'd have to pull some magical **** out of your bellybutton to even come close to winning this one.
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I support the Danish stance and all those who agree with their sentiment.
-SW
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Originally posted by weaselsan
Then why are we the oldest Democracy in the world?:p
The Isle of Man.
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It's a shame that more people here aren't able to elevate 'spirited discussions' beyond emotional language or arguing around a hub of moral superiority.
If you really want to make sense of anything, you have take the opposite side of a debate or argument. Research it and debate it with as much vigor as possible. It's hard to do, but without that mindset, you'll forever be just a pawn.
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Seeya. ;)
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I've been fed up with caving in to "their beheading demands". Those who are silent and Muslim in the world, support the act, so F**k em. I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
As for them chucking rocks at Danish police, they should have capped their a**es.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Fishu
Lets see if Syrian leaders will apologize in the behalf of their citizens.
No muslim or property was harmed with the cartoons.
because symbol whitch has been attacked might be more important for them that house or car ?
ummm ?
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I've been fed up with caving in to "their beheading demands". Those who are silent and Muslim in the world, support the act, so F**k em. I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
Karaya
hehe ... you are nice example of typical islamist extremist.
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Originally posted by lada
hehe ... you are nice example of typical islamist extremist.
No, I think we should deal with "Islamic Terrorists" that way the KGB dealt with some issues in the past. I'm sorry but the "silent majority" of Islam that ignore these "extremist acts" are supporting it.
But, nice try there lada.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
No, I think we should deal with "Islamic Terrorists" that way the KGB dealt with some issues in the past. I'm sorry but the "silent majority" of Islam that ignore these "extremist acts" are supporting it.
But, nice try there lada.
Karaya
sure and silent majority of americans who dont stop killing of civilist during wars are as guilty as those killers.... i understood your statement well.
umm yes... you are same as those extremists.
"normal" people do not suggest extremistic solutions.
anyway i will be happy to hear more about KGB methods, if you dont mind to share sutch info.
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Originally posted by lada
sure and silent majority of americans who dont stop killing of civilist during wars are as guilty as those killers.... i understood your statement well.
umm yes... you are same as those extremists.
"normal" people do not suggest extremistic solutions.
anyway i will be happy to hear more about KGB methods, if you dont mind to share sutch info.
Civilians are an unfortuante part of war lada. War is ugly, but you are clouded.
No, I am not the same, just tired of the excuses, they come with. Seems to me, the Iraqi's are killing more civilians than the "occupying force". But I'm sure you already knew that.
Karaya
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Oh piss of thrawn.
It's a humours way to point out that while a huge number of Muslims are outraged beyond reason over a cartoon, we Americans barely notice when an islamist radical beheads people who were there in non-combat, civilian, or international aid roles.
Where is our outrage? Well, we don't get outraged. But their behavior is still intolerable in my opinion, so I propose that for every person murdered on camera by the islamist radicals, we take one islamist radical and publically humiliate him by rubbing his nose in western culture. Is taping a porn pinup to an Imam's shirt torture? If so, by god I hope if I'm ever captured, my captors "torture" me by disrespecting my culture in front of me. Oh, the horror.
Take your moral superiority and shove it up your bung. I'm sick of the apologists who are so damned intent on saying we must be ever so careful not to offend a group of radicals who are offended by everything including our mere existance, while it's OK for them to burn down embassies, send death threats, and behead innocent aid workers and civilians simply because it's in their nature or a core religious belief of theirs. If their core religious belief means that they have to kill anyone who draws a cartoon of mohammed, then I propose that belief is not legitimate in a modern civilization.
Killing them isn't working... So how about a little ridicule? Laugh at these mental midgets that get all worked up over cartoons eh? Except that the muslim man on the street doesn't really think about it all that hard because he's been conditioned from birth to obey the imams. So our targets for correctional influence must be their religious leaders, because it's their religious leaders that are telling them that they must kill and burn things over every little insult, verbal, or whatever perceived offense that occurs anywhere in the world.
As it is now, if an Imam notices my hometown newspaper prints something offensive to Islam, a huge number of people are saying that it's perfectly legitimate for thousands of Muslims 5000 miles away to burn down an embassy because the little newspaper published something offensive. I strongly think that we are horribly wrong if we let those radicals dictate what we talk about, print, or publish in our country, and we must FIGHT to retain the rights. One of those rights is the right to live without the threat of death from religious extremists watching your every move, but that's where we're heading if we let these islamists dictate what we say, think, and print.
Yea thrawn, I take my oath to the constitution seriously. Who or what did you swear to protect? The right for islamic fundamentalists to not be offended? They're offended by EVERYTHING WE DO, and they need to get over it. Their religion will NOT shape my behavior. I'm not a Muslim and I think they're quite literally insane to expect me to comply with their religious rules when I'm not in their country or under their law. To state that people in other countries should die/burn/whatever because they broke islamic law is likewise insane, and our constitution is specifically set up to directly oppose that kind of dangerous thinking.
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I apologise, I thought you were serious.
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Ok. Sorry for going on in my second post.
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Originally posted by eagl
Oh piss of thrawn.
It's a humours way to point out that while a huge number of Muslims are outraged beyond reason over a cartoon
huge ?
I bet all my money, that when US invaded Iraq there were 10x more people in the streets all around the world.
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Danish embassy in Beirut torched
link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4682560.stm)
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And when the planes crashed into the WTC towers... Victory parades instead of protests.
Some Muslim regions are "calmly outraged" (?) but they're still outraged and demanding government intervention against the free press. And some media sources have caved in, placing a radical Islamic freedom from being offended over their own freedom of press rights. Some (CNN) can likely justify their position by pure market considerations since publishing the pictures could reasonably hurt their profit margin, but that's only applicable to certain huge media giants and it's certainly a slippery slope. Are we in an age where news sources in America determine what they do and do not publish based on threats from radical religious groups? Apparently we are, and apparently radical religious groups in other countries will dictate the behavior of news organizations in the U.S. And here we thought the media thought freedom was a good idea, when in fact they're just looking out for the fiscal bottom line.
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8 O'clock news Anchor: (Introes Foreign Affairs Minister) Where does caricature stop?
Minister: Quite so. Well then, caricature is excess, by definition.
Therefore, by definition, it has no limit.
Anchor: Right, total freedom, then?
Minister: Quite so.
Anchor: But, if like today, extremists threaten repraisals against countries that caricature freely?
Minister: Well then, in fact, in that case, we stop right away, and stop caricature.
Anchor: Eh? Ah.. so, total freedom, except if people aren't happy?
Minister: Well, yes!
Anchor: But, that's an open door to censorship, isn't it?
Minister: Not at all, no.. We must caricature, with intelligence, with finesse, critique, yes, but of quality.
Anchor: In other words?
Minister: Quite so, I'm getting to it. See, here, this morning in "Humanity" [well known rag]..
Anchor: You read Humanity, you?
Minister: Well, yes, I'm communist... uh, I'm communist, aren't I?
Anchor: Uh, no.
Minister: Ah, all the same to me.. Anyway, see here, this comic strip in Humanity.. there. It's corrosive, incisive, huh? Of an unheard of violence!
Anchor: Uh.. yeah..
Minister: Ah, well, it is!
[shot of comic strip: 3 frames, minimalistic elements, actors are: (http://dominique.chiaretto.free.fr/pif1.gif), with snow hats]
See, here, the dog says:
<>
The cat, there, answers:
<>
..and there, the dog runs out of the frame, grabs a snowball, and throws it, as we can see, with violence, in the cat's face!!..
<>, he tells him.
Anchor: Mhm.. yeah.. And what's corrosive about that?
Minister: But that's obvious! Everybody knows that dogs don't like cats! Who can doubt, here, that this drawing isn't anything else than a metaphor of the Israelo-Palestinian conflict?
Anchor: Uh.. Me!..
Minister: But come on, it is, in fact! Look: There, the cat has a beanie, he's therefore a palestinian! And the dog, there, with his long ears that hang low, there, it's the Payots of an Orthodox-Jewish Israeli! It's obvious!
Anchor: [Meh]..
Minister: And the snowball, thrown.. who can doubt that it's an evoquation of Intifada?
Anchor: Uh.. Me?..
Minister: Yes, but that's because it's a fine caricature, and that because of it, you don't grasp the significance. What do you see?
Anchor: Uh, me? Uh.. Well, just a bogus gag in [Peanuts].
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What is that from?
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http://www.canalplus.fr/index_popup.php?1=1&pid=1&cid=22211&tpl=108&init=1&mess_page=9
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"Valider"
(http://media.canal-plus.com/image/58/8/34588.jpg) Vendredi 3 Février 's video, about halfway into it.
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Clearly religious tolerance is a one way street. We tolerate theirs, they will not tolerate ours. And clearly this is the difference between a civilized world and the Muslim world, where logic, reason and the sort go out the windows with religious banter being the winner everyday.
We should immediately ship all ACLU staff to the mideast so they can sue these people senseless.
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Originally posted by lada
huge ?
I bet all my money, that when US invaded Iraq there were 10x more people in the streets all around the world.
What does a $1.83 American really get you in your country?
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Originally posted by LePaul
We should immediately ship all ACLU staff to the mideast so they can sue these people senseless.
:aok
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The way I see it, religious people should only take care of the people following the same religion. If a moslem drinks beer, then other moslems may put him straight. If a christian thinks that evolutionism is more logical than creationism, then other christians may brainwash him about the unequivocal truth of creationsism (using ID to lure him into their trap).
If I, non-moslem and non-christian, decide to draw Mahomet and JC going at it in a cheap motel room, it's my F.....G right (or my F.....G problem if you prefer). For both religions, I'm already damned. So what difference will make a little drawing? The fact that you're judging the drawing funny, bad taste or exciting (not that there's anything wrong with that) doesn't matter.
I stand completely behind the danes and I'm p....d off big time with the catholic church siding with the moslems. They whine that the 'sacred' isn't respected anymore in Europe. Well, respect can't be forced, it must be earned. If the 'sacred' (all religions included) hadn't such a violent of unjust history, the situation might be different.
On a side note, I can see that the 'holy' Seagoon doesn't miss an opportunity to attack the 'evil islam'. While I'm baffled by the amount of violences committed because of some silly drawings, this kind of reaction is sadly ironic. First, the quran (spelling) states that moslems can't attack churchs from other religions. This is somewhat contradictory with his theory that Islam is intolerant.
The way I see it, fundamentalist Islam is certainly gaining 'votes' upon the tolerant, 'lukewarm' way to follow this religion. One could advance that Islam has now reached the same point than the catholic church at the high times of the Inquisition.
This put christians on a weak footing to point fingers at the violences committed in the name of allah.
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On a side note, I can see that the 'holy' Seagoon doesn't miss an opportunity to attack the 'evil islam'.
Seagoon is respected on this board by most (including myself), not because of his views on his own religion, but because he is always polite and is knowledgeable about the subjects he posts about. He never attacks folks for their views, nor does he attack those that attack him.
That said....Seagoon most likely has a far better fundamental understanding of Islam than the rest of us on this board combined. He actually studied Islam (before converting to Christianity) and was seriously considering joining Islam.
Seagoon's posts in this thread are consistant with his other posts on Islam.
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Originally posted by Rolex
It's a shame that more people here aren't able to elevate 'spirited discussions' beyond emotional language or arguing around a hub of moral superiority.
If you really want to make sense of anything, you have take the opposite side of a debate or argument. Research it and debate it with as much vigor as possible. It's hard to do, but without that mindset, you'll forever be just a pawn.
OK....I just sawed my neighbors head of with a knife....I still don't understand Islam.....it just made me ill...help me understand oh wise one.
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Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here and try to point out the reasons for the uproar against the drawings. Saying, "Get over it, it's just a cartoon," fits western sense of sarcasm nicely, but it's not 'just a cartoon' to the those targeted.
1. Western cultures (that means Europe and America) have a history of sarcasm, cynicism and caricature in literature, politics and religion. Cultures where Islam prevails and Eastern cultures do not have such a history, or use cynicism or sarcasm in their daily life.
2. Religion is serious to Muslims and depicting dieties in drawings is considered blasphemy. There are no religious paintings or caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad on the walls of mosques or in homes.
3. Displaying Muhammad with a bomb turban is an extraordinarily offensive thing to depict to every Muslim - including the overwhelming mass of quiet, peaceful, non-militant Muslims. It's hard to come up with an act that would evoke equivalent personal emotion or outrage to a western person. Perhaps a drawing of your mother engaged in beastiality? All Christian clergyman engaged in homosexual acts with children? Would your local newspaper print it and defend it as freedom of press?
4. Even the most moderate, apolitical Muslim could believe from these offensive political drawings that the west is intent on destroying their religion and them, not just those with radical political beliefs.
5. Every major Islamic organization and group has denounced the violence. Maybe the west should thoughtfully consider why these drawings brought people into the streets, instead of shrugging it off as something Muslims should 'get over.'
So there's a devil's advocate view. Would the Danish press print a political caricature of Queen Margrethe II engaged in beastiality and defend it as a press freedom?
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Probably not, but I don't think they'd burn the Syrian embassy down.
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Originally posted by Rolex
Would the Danish press print a political caricature of Queen Margrethe II engaged in beastiality and defend it as a press freedom?
The difference between putting a picture of the Queen in an offensive situation and that of the Danish cartoons portraying the muslim prophet with a bomb is the fact that many of those suicide bombers are "rewarded" with promises of x number of virgins etc. for carrying out these bombings/hijackings. The murders and terror that they perpetuate is embedded in their religion.
If the Queen or any other political or religious person was proven to have been involved in stuff like that, well, as far as I am concerned it is open season to print it...anything and everything.
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"The murders and terror that they perpetuate is embedded in their religion."
Who are 'they?'
Are you sure it isn't embedded into the minds of those who kill themselves for their perceived purpose by men for political purpose, and not by their religion?
Are they sacrificing (in their view) themselves for religion or for political reasons?
Would there be terrorist bombings anywhere if they were left alone to live their lives as they wanted without western influence to change their religion, culture and political circumstances?
Do they want to control your life and world? Do you want to control theirs?
Is the west not fighting to resist the supposed 'threat' of Islam as vigorously as Islam is resisting the supposed 'threat' of western culture?
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Originally posted by Rolex
"The murders and terror that they perpetuate is embedded in their religion."
Who are 'they?'
Are you sure it isn't embedded into the minds of those who kill themselves for their perceived purpose by men for political purpose, and not by their religion?
Are they sacrificing (in their view) themselves for religion or for political reasons?
Would there be terrorist bombings anywhere if they were left alone to live their lives as they wanted without western influence to change their religion, culture and political circumstances?
Do they want to control your life and world? Do you want to control theirs?
Is the west not fighting to resist the supposed 'threat' of Islam as vigorously as Islam is resisting the supposed 'threat' of western culture?
They = Extremeists who are beheading civilians of all nationalities, blowing up Iraqi's, etc.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Rolex
It's hard to come up with an act that would evoke equivalent personal emotion or outrage to a western person.
I guess Chris Ofili's Holy Virgin Mary at the Brooklyn Art Museum should have caused Catholic rioting the world over.
It would be perfectly understandably for Catholics to burn embassies and generally raise a revolt over something that offensive.
But for some reason they didn't. The must not take their religion seriously.
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Or, Muslims must take their religion more seriously than we think? Is that possible?
There seem to be alot of first-time rioters from this incident. They haven't beheaded anyone. Is it because they just don't get our humor, or we don't get it that they don't have a sense of humor about their religion?
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Personally, I couldn't care less about their religion.
If I were president, there would be planes flying over all Muslim countries dropping aerosol bombs full of pigs blood.
My country = my laws.
Their ****hole = their laws.
They try to impose their laws on me, I hope my President imposes his foot up their ass.
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I can imagine alot of young men in the middle east hearing similar words from those intent on recruiting would-be insurgents. Can you?
Just for sake of argument, transpose the players and see how it fits.
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Originally posted by Rolex
Or, Muslims must take their religion more seriously than we think? Is that possible?
I imagine in the Dark Ages, Catholics probably would have rioted over that. Is it possible Muslim society hasn't progressed beyond a Dark Ages attitude?
In the Dark Ages, there probably would have been alot of first-time rioters from this incident. They probably wouldn't beheaded anyone; just speared them. Maybe those Catholics didn't have our sense of humor or maybe they just wouldn't have had a sense of humor about their religion back then?
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I think what Rolex is trying to say is that deep down inside we're all budding Jihadists just waiting to be really pissed off about something.
Embrace the inner derka. HALALALALALA!!!
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Islam started off in a past-the-dark-ages mentality. They were the world's leaders in science, math, health, and some engineering.
So I don't want to hear the BS about them not evolving past their dark ages.
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Bak. Derk-derk-Allah. Derka derka, Mohammed Jihad. Baka sherpa-sherpa. Abaka-la.
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Originally posted by Toad
I imagine in the Dark Ages, Catholics probably would have rioted over that. Is it possible Muslim society hasn't progressed beyond a Dark Ages attitude?
I think what you said is spot on Toad!
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Wouldn't you be pissed no internet, no pr0n, no masturbation no impure thoughts of any kind, smurfy burka chicks everywhere and finally ugly arse goats to screw and any other type of flea infested farm animal, and NO BEER DRINKING!
Yeah I'd be pist too :D
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I wonder what Dark Ages Catholics would think about Jesus vs. Santa on South Park or The Last Tempation of Christ (assuming they got over the shock of television and movies first)
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They'd probably light torches, burn people at the stake, raze crops, go on a crusade, excommunicate someone here and there until they realised they could film it all (thanks to this new TV medium) and post it on the internet (wow!) with some catchy theme music. Then they'd probably just stay in their hometowns beheading people. Of course, that was sooo 800 A.D. Some groups just have a little catching up to do.
In the rural southern part of Iraq I have seen many solitary homes and entire villages made of adobe brick by the subsistence farmers and livestock herders who built them. It looked like the set of a Jesus movie. Are thatch roofs still popular in rural Europe or Teepees in North America?
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Originally posted by Rolex
It's a shame that more people here aren't able to elevate 'spirited discussions' beyond emotional language or arguing around a hub of moral superiority.
If you really want to make sense of anything, you have take the opposite side of a debate or argument. Research it and debate it with as much vigor as possible. It's hard to do, but without that mindset, you'll forever be just a pawn.
then there are those of us that recognize that particular culture to be a serious threat to our own and advocate an 18th century type response to the same threat. let the mohammadans howl. let them drag us back 300 years. thank you danish cartoonists it may well be the catalyst we needed.
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"... it may well be the catalyst we needed."
A catalyst needed to do what?
Who is 'we?'
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Originally posted by Rolex
"... it may well be the catalyst we needed."
A catalyst needed to do what?
Who is 'we?'
slow on the uptake are we?
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Yup, you win. I'm an idiot.
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Anything that accelerates resolution of a crisis counts as catalyst.
In this case, clearing up, for all to see, whether one part of the world should and/or will amputate a vital part of its livelihood to accomodate another's would be a start.