Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SkevJ on February 04, 2006, 11:07:54 AM

Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: SkevJ on February 04, 2006, 11:07:54 AM
This plane had the most success in the WWII campaign. So how come its not rewarded with success instead it has to be the worst plane in the group?
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: Wmaker on February 04, 2006, 11:16:21 AM
So, going by your logic (if I understand you correctly), if we would ever get Brewster Model 239 it should be as fast as Me-262 and turn like a Pitts Special because it had so much success in the war (exchange ratio of 26:1)?
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: Pooface on February 04, 2006, 11:19:59 AM
revor, the reason the p40 had so much success was due to the fact it was flown by excellent pilots, during the first stages of the war, against inferior planes. thats why it racked up such a kill tally. and, the p40 is an amazing plane if you know what you're doing.


i regularly outturn spit16's in mine. its just a question of experience
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: agent 009 on February 04, 2006, 01:49:28 PM
XPQ P-40, hope I got that right, was quite a plane. Cleaned up aerodynamics, top speed 422. still not good as Stang. That's why it probably wasn't mass produced.
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: Speed55 on February 04, 2006, 02:51:29 PM
I saw a program on the AVG.
They said they normally flew in together at about 16k, and pounced down on there japanese enemies.
I remember one pilot specifically saying that they would never turn with them, because they couldn't,  but would use  superior speed and acceleration to take them out.
I found that in the E model you can turn relatively well, and when fighting certain early to mid war planes I have no problems taking them out.  Now when fighting late war planes, you have to be really careful because they will either turn better, accelerate better, have better top end, or all three.
Not to mention that you usually will be the target of all, because your seen as an easy kill.
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: Squire on February 04, 2006, 08:45:56 PM
"Most success in the WW2 campaign" would be over stating it, but it did do well in many theaters, and it has an interesting history.

Read up on WW2, and you will find the answers.
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: bagrat on February 05, 2006, 12:47:36 AM
P-40 still seems to me as a very decent palne, but in "SPIT 16 LA's High" it only seems inferior.
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: Ghosth on February 05, 2006, 07:01:23 AM
P40 was out classed in every arena it flew in with the possible exceptoin of Chenaults AVG group.

And I suspect if we were able to go back in time and look at those planes. You'd find they had stripped most of the extra weight possible out of them. Chenault was no fool, he knew men, and he knew planes, and how to get the most out of both.

P40 was a good  design that never really had enough horsepower to do the job it needed to do. And unlike the D pony, never got upgraded with a big enough engine.

Take out the frills and give it more power and you'd have seen it go from a mediocre performer to a star much like the pony did.
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: agent 009 on February 05, 2006, 03:25:46 PM
Disagree. P-40 got same merlin as Pony.
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: gripen on February 05, 2006, 03:37:09 PM
The V-1650-1 (P-40F) was a single stage engine while all Merlin engined Mustangs got two stage Merlins.

gripen
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: agent 009 on February 05, 2006, 03:47:45 PM
Nah, Mustang C had 1650 too.

Curtis P-40F

The Curtis P-40 was introduced in the late 1930's , becoming the first aircraft to see large scale production powered by an Allison V-1710 engine.  Even as it entered service, however, it was being eclipsed by contemporary German and British aircraft.   Its 350 mph speed at 12,000 ft put the P-40 at a serious disadvantage, thus the P-40 was primarily exported.  In order to achieve more performance, P-40 designer Don Berlin asked to have the P-40 fitted with two-stage Merlin engines.  The two-stage engines were in demand for more critical applications, but the Packard-built V-1650-1 Merlin was fitted to the plane, becoming the P-40F (P-40L's used the same engine).

The French ordered a large number of planes, but before they could be delivered Germany had occupied France.  The planes were redirected to the British, who became the first to use the planes in combat.  The planes lacked sufficient armor plating and self-sealing fuel tanks since these were not specified by the French.  The planes were could not challenge the German aircraft in Europe, but they were found to perform very well in North Africa where they performed well against both the Italian Air Force and the Luftwaffe.

The P-40 is perhaps remembered best as the plane of General Claire Chennault's famous "Flying Tigers" American Volunteer Group (AVG).  The small AVG group racked up an incredible kill ratio against the Japanese in China.  The AVG was only in existence for eight months, yet in that time they scored an incredible 286 kills with no more than 80 AVG pilots at any given time.  In July 1942 the AVG became the twenty-third fighter group of the USAAF.

During the attack on Pearl Harbor, a few P-40C's were able to get airborne and kill some of the attacking Japanese planes.  While obsolete by 1941/1942 standards, this was the best fighter the Air Corps had in service at the time.  Production ended in November 1944.
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: agent 009 on February 05, 2006, 03:51:24 PM
OK I get it 1650 3 was 1st 2 speeder. Still a merlin though in P-40 F.

68
V-1650-3 Mustang III, P-51B
P-51C 1670/3000/SL
1700/3000/6400
1490/3000/19,400 Packard built, first Packard two-speed two-stage engines
69
V-1650-7 Mustang III/IV
P-51C/D/F/K 1670/3000/SL
1700/3000/6400
1490/3000/19,400
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: gripen on February 05, 2006, 03:55:49 PM
AFAIK no any Mustang got single stage Merlin:

P-51B got V-1650-3 or V-1650-7
P-51C same engines B
P-51D got mostly V-1650-7 but some planes got V-1650-9 or V-1650-3.
P-51K same engines D
P-51H got V-1650-9

gripen
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: agent 009 on February 05, 2006, 03:57:07 PM
Just said that.

My neighbor said you had to shift the supercharger on the P-40 by hand. hated it. & he dove it & had to stand with all his weight on one side to keep it straight.
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: agent 009 on February 05, 2006, 04:01:53 PM
Curtiss XP-40Q 'Warhawk'  

Description
  Manufacturer: Curtiss

 
 
  Base model: P-40
  Designation: XP-40
  Version: Q
  Nickname: Warhawk
  Designation System: U.S. Air Force
  Designation Period: 1925-1947
  Basic role: Pursuit
  Status: Experimental


Specifications
  Length: 33' 4" 10.1 m
  Wingspan: 37' 4" 11.3 m


Propulsion   No. of Engines: 1
  Powerplant: Allison V-1710-121
  Horsepower (each): 1425


Performance
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: agent 009 on February 05, 2006, 04:08:02 PM
Hey Skev, check this out. Shilling said P-40 more maneuverable than mustang.

Erik Shilling (AVG Pilot), "The P-40 was a hell of a lot better fighter than those who have never flow it think. If it had had the top speed of a 51 I would take it over any fighter the US had."

Jeff Ethell (Pilot, aviation author and historian), "After years of reading that the P-40 could not maneuver, particularly with a Zero, and that it had to make diving slash attacks to be effective, I had come to accept the general opinion that it was outclassed by almost everything else flying. Sitting in the cockpit, with the controls in my hands, having written a book about the aircraft and said all those things, the accepted history in my brain was wrestling with the seat of my pants. No question it did not have the top speed and high altitude performance to disengage targets at will, but it was certainly more maneuverable than other American fighters, particularly the P-51."
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: agent 009 on February 05, 2006, 08:59:29 PM
Now imagine the XP-40 Q with v 1650 7. Mustang smoker perhaps.
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: Crumpp on February 05, 2006, 10:12:14 PM
(http://img133.potato.com/loc186/th_c9176_USdata.jpg) (http://img133.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc186&image=c9176_USdata.jpg)

 (http://img22.potato.com/loc284/th_5dac8_1710_33.jpg) (http://img22.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc284&image=5dac8_1710_33.jpg)

Lots of interesting reports in my collection on this series.  I like the P40, it's my personal favourite as a real good friend of mine wrote a great book on the Flying Tigers.  Got a big painting of "The Valiant Clan" Hells Angels AVG in my study.

:)

All the best,

Crumpp
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: Widewing on February 05, 2006, 10:40:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp


Lots of interesting reports in my collection on this series.  I like the P40, it's my personal favourite as a real good friend of mine wrote a great book on the Flying Tigers.  Got a big painting of "The Valiant Clan" Hells Angels AVG in my study.

:)

All the best,

Crumpp


Which book is that? I have just about every AVG book written, including some that were published privately. My favorite is R.T. Smith's book, Tale of a Tiger. His son Brad may still have a few copies.

My regards,

Widewing
Title: how come the P40 wasnt made as an elite plane?
Post by: Crumpp on February 05, 2006, 10:48:01 PM
Quote
Which book is that?


# 1652 - PICTORIAL HISTORY OF THE FLYING TIGERS - Author: Pistols, Larry N. - Description: The surviving veterans of the flying tigers and their families from a small and elite cadre of Americans. Among them is the author of this book. - Hard Cover- Heavily illustrated - Out of Print/Used book - 260 Pages - Price: $45.00

Quote
My favorite is R.T. Smith's book, Tale of a Tiger. His son Brad may still have a few copies.


I would love to get a copy.

All the best,

Crumpp