Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on September 13, 2000, 07:41:00 AM
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With 75% taxes on it? WHAT the hell is the European Gov't doing with all that money?
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I saw that on the news this a.m. Also, schools in England may have to shut down tomorrow? Some hospitals denying service because of no ambulance service? 3 out of 4 gasoline stations closed? What the heck is going on?
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What do you want. Moving in a vehicle with a weight of 1 ton or more only to transport 1,3 (statistically) person with a weight of 70-80kg sounds not very wise. Massive individual traffic causes a big bunch of waste, it lowers live quality within cities, uses limited planetary resources.
So for me it is very logical these guys should pay for the stinking toejam they produce.
Long live public traffic.
Macchi
[This message has been edited by Macchi (edited 09-13-2000).]
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our goverment stealing most of our money (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
1. almost 1$ per 1l of gasoline
2. monthly income about 300$ per mounth for most of peoples in PL
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= we'll need about 50mln of bicycles really soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
btw can someone change "level" of my life from Nightmare to Easy mode? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I'll tell you whats going on:
We have the most expensive petrol in europe.
In britain we pay 84.9p a litre for unleaded, but 63.5p of that is tax. What is more annoying is that 16.9% of this money is spent on the roads!!!! So finally people have started protesting - not allowing tankers to leave fuel depots and refineries. When the Blair government came in we paid 59.47p a litre.
All nine refineries in Britain are blockaded by protesters.
90%-100% of all petrol stations are empty. (95% in North East where I live)
The NHS (National Health Service) is a great service despite its critics, but relies on private transport for blood donation transport, moving doctors, surgeons and nurses between hospitals. Private visits by doctors nurses to people's homes. Consequently these people have no fuel - people are suffering and very shortly people will start to DIE.
The protestors are letting out fuel for ambulances and firefighting equipment - but not enough. Greater Manchester ambulances will run out of fuel if this keeps up. Some hospitals are using emergency plans drawn up to cope with millenium night!
Seems to me that there is no central organisation behind protests - no planning of what supplies should go where.
Go slow protests on major motorways.
And finally truckers have blockaded the capital (maybe that'll make people there wake up to the problem).
Another week and supermarkets will have problems too.
To any fellow brits: do you support the action? What effect will this have on the Blair government, given the proximity of the election?
I gotta say that I do - taxation like this cannot go on.
Does it make you proud to be British? Finally, people are prepared to do something if they disagree with it instead of whining.
BTW - England is just one country in Britain - Scotland and Wales are hit harder. Schools are OK in England, but in Wales 19 schools look like they are going close.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-13-2000).]
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Ah, civil disobedience. WTG Brits! I had no idea taxes on gasoline were that high there. My gosh!
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hehe more news from Poland...
we have 83% of all kind of taxes in Gas priece!!!
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A question.
If only 17% of the gas taxes are used for road projects, where is the other 83% of the taxs going?
Public assistance programs? Universal Health Care? the Military?
Honest question.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Here in Finland gas is only 1$/liter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
But howabout cars:
Chevy Alero 2,4_______ ~30,000 Usd
Camaro 3,8____________ ~36,400 Usd
Chrysler Neon 2,0 SE__ ~18,600 Usd
Saab 9-3 2,0t_________ ~25,300 Usd
Toyota Avensis 2,0____ ~22,800 Usd.
No wonder people buy their cars from another countries. You just need to live there and earn the money too. One reason why Finnish soldiers (Blue barrets) worked for U.N in Lebanon, Angola, Suez, Golan heights, Bosnia etc...
But we got good welfare and school system...
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Vermillion there are differences in taxes. Some are depending on the item which is taxed. In germany we have 2 terms for that. Generally a tax is not fixed onto the topic for what it is collected. So taxes for automobiles don't have to spend for traffic issues. Only a few "taxes" are time limited, like the support taxes for the ex DDR states. These taxes have to be used for these states only. Normal taxes can be used by the goverment like they want or need.
Indivisual traffic based on burning oil and gasoline has to be expensive because of the costs it produces.
Traffic raises more and more regardless of polluting the air.
People should better change to public traffic (if they have the luck to live in a fre land which gives you this opportunity.
Macchi
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Go Brits! I love seeing people stand up to over taxation. Here's an idea, instead of the governements around the world taxing us, how about they just come and burn our villages and steal our chickens and livestock? Heck at least that way I'd only have to hide 2 of each animal to keep them reproducing enough for my "tax sacrifice"
I think here in the US that our taxes somehow find thier way into the pockets of our polititians. We "spend" 2 trillion every year, have a 1 trillion dollar "surplus" and it's still not enough. All the problems those taxes are supposed to go to fix keep getting worse. It doesn't take a genious to figure out the money aint getting to where it's supposed to be going.
Taxes are evil.
Udie
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One of the major reasons for the high taxes in England is due to the Island Mentality. Other Island Nations suffer from it too (Japan comes to mind).
When you have a large number of people living on a small island, things are done to limit the amount of space taken up. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread... cars take up space. They also add polution to a densly populated area.
As someone forgot to point out, cars are still necessary for many applications. This is why you have gasoline, but make it ridiculously expensive. Those that have to be on the road will weigh the cost of fuel when making the decision to/not to drive.
AKDejaVu
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Yeh.
Taxes are evil.
So is air pollution.
It seems the only way to get people off their fat tulips and either onto a bike or some form of public transportation is by making the alternative too expensive.
<StSanta does not own anything that makes use of a combustion engine>
Jealousy speaking, mayhap?
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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The crazy thing is that I believe in taxation. At least to certain extent. But what has happened here is ridiculous. It wouldn't be so bad if the money had been put into public transport - I'd agree with that. But here in Britain, trains were privatised by Thatcher (and guess what? It has almost universally got worse if you want to travel anywhere by train). So the money goes on the woefully underfunded National Health Service and other civic organisations. Maybe the Millenium Dome - or maybe that was National Lottery money? Either way it is an abomination.
Goes on our military? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) That's a laugh. We may have the best army in the world in terms of training (wtg in Sierra Leone), but it again is underfunded. If there are any Argentinians out there, come and take the Falklands, because there is no way we could take it from you again. We simply don't have the military anymore.
I know its politically incorrect, but does anyone remember when we were a world power? Two world wars saw an end to that, and now we pander to Germany and Japan for investment in our country. You got to admit things turned out funny in the end - at least in an ironic way. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Having said that, times have changed - I suppose its good Germany and Japan are prosperous - learned our lesson from Versailles.
Ooops, ranted a bit there. But the whole situation makes me seethe with rage.
Udie, if the money isn't going where its supposed to then thats your administration's fault. Change the way you do things - if enough people want it, or can be bothered to support then you can't be stopped. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Staga - cars are a rip off here as well (pattern emerging here I think). On the subject of petrol - wanna post me some? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
StSanta - wanna try British public transport? Its expensive, dirty, slow and delayed. The car is the only alternative left to people who want to get on with their lives, considering that most people can't bike 40 miles to work. Privatisation has seen to that.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-13-2000).]
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I support the intentions of the government, but not their methods. It's ridiculous. By trying to force people to use poor public transport they're completely missing the point - cars are an essential part of the economy.
Instead, they should be funding hydrogen fuel cell research and providing incentives to use alternative power methods for cars.
Still, at least they're doing something about the problem, however badly handled.
And in answer to your question Verm, the rest of the money goes on the most incredible and magical building in the history of the world - the Millenium Dome.
Incredible because millions (or is it billions yet?) of pounds of cash flows into it, and magical because the cash then disappears into thin air (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by -duma- (edited 09-13-2000).]
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Duma - i think the Dome money comes from the National Lottery not taxes. Pretty sure of that.
Duma - in reply to below - good point! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-13-2000).]
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Yes, but why waste a perfectly good joke?
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Santa, have you ever been to Texas? Just guessing here but I think Houston is just a tad smaller then your whole country. Now come here in August in tell me to ride a bike, anywhere. You will die, quickly. The heat we had here and usually have here is over 100 degrees F. Plus most people dont work down the block from where they live. My last job took me about an hour in a car to get to. Now sure I could work down the street for that lovely minimum wage you would like to see raised, but that wont pay the bills. Cars are a very important form of transportion that keeps this economy chuggin right along. Quickest way for a coup is to take peoples cars, hehe.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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The military part was a joke (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I know the US militaries funding over the past 8 years has been cut incessantly, but its use has been on the rise. (Worlds Police Force?)
Now as to the issue of the environment, sorry but you can't talk out both sides of your face. "Air Pollution is Evil and we keep taxs high to disuade the use of petrol" one second, but then complain about the cost in the next breath.
We call it the NIMBY syndrome in the US (or a reverse NIMBY actually), which stands for Not In My Back Yard. Where people are against dirty industry, cars, etc. and don't want them around. Until they need a job or are inconvienced by poor public transportation.
I understand that "Green" Environmental Groups are very popular in Europe, but you can only shove so much down the throat of the common man before he gets sick of it and starts to fight back. (Possibly whats happening?)
And before anyone starts lecturing me on Air Pollution and the Environment.... Shudup ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) I do it every day as a profession, and have a graduate degree in Environmental Engineering. In fact, my day to day job is to use computer simulations to "model" air pollution and it dispersion into the atmosphere. I can and have taught graduate level courses on the subject.
There are many components to the formation of air pollution (I assume you are speaking of ozone), and many things that effect its residual concentrations. But admittedly, automobile exhausts are a large component. But don't forget power plants, commercial and household use of VOC's (volatile organic carbons), and about any other combustion source. Even large farms and forest contribute to the problem, believe it or not.
One last question. What is a "Millineum Dome"?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Vermillion - the British protest has nothing to do with the 'Environment'.
You'll find as much apathy here as anywhere else. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The Millenium Dome:
1) Very Large white dome near Greenwich, London.
2) Designed to 'celebrate' the Millenium
3) Designed at huge expense by 'Style Gurus' (read 'Style bananas')
4) Meant to attract millions of people, from all over Britain
5) Attracts half a dozen people who missed the turning for Buckingham Palace.
6) Makes huge loss.
7) Repeatedly asks for final, final loan to cover said huge loss. Bigger loss made.
8) Change in management = big changes and success
9) Does it f**k
10) Likely to pulled down before the years out.
That answer your question? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-13-2000).]
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Verm, in your opinion, whether based on facts or best guess, is this "Green House" effect something that nature does on its own, with a minor contribution from man? In other words, all these Gov't funded programs that account for a hefty % of our national budget...are the scientists doing it for the $$, or based on scientific and historical evidence..?
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Buy an electric car (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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electric cars solve everything eh? Your electricity comes from somewhere.. and unless you burn the fuel in your car, the fuel will be burned at the power plant. Increase the electric cars... increase the electric plants. There is a set amount of energy available in the world. You cannot trade your gas car for an electric and expect to save energy.. your not... your just burning it on another end.
The way to do it is to find NEW energy.. ie these new cars that recover energy released by heat and friction on your cars brakes. Thats a new source, but energy that has always been avaiable.
BTW there is now technology for self sustaining nuclear power plants. After the initial investment of fuel, the waste produced by the plant is recycled and used as fuel again. This new technology produces no waste and requires small amounts of additional fuel over time with a huge return in output. But because its "Nuclear" it does not get funding to get out of the research stage. Public perception is a squeak.
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WarChild
VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
"Where's the Charmin!"
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Heh, so it is hot.
Public transportation.
The US is by fat the biggest pollutor country in the world in terms of cars. Ain't even bothering with fuel economy, when gas is that cheap.
I say; ya wanna stink down the place, go ahead, but pay for it.
Or get a gun and kill everyone who "threatens your right to cheap gas".
I don't think there's much debating to be done regarding emissions from cars. They're bad, period.
When I can afford one, I'll get one, with a huge engine.
Until then, treehuggers unite (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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This isnt denmark, come here and see the size of Houston, its not gonna happen bud. City is 4 million people strong spread out over hundreds of miles, public transportion consists of buses, weeeee. They cant stop at every work place. Sure great in theory but not practical, hmm sounds like socialism, guess you know all about that.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Speaking personally from the north woods of the USA, I'm sick of this gas tax toejam. Gas up here in Wausau is almost a $1.70 per gallon of unleaded, more for the premium of course. And thats with most of the taxes waived! Now, I know that doesn't sound like much as it is in Europe, but gas around here used to be .99-1.20$ per gallon. I don't know how these amazinhunks at the gas companies live with themselves, taking hard earned money to line their own pocket. They make enough at a $1.25, now they got to add .45 cents to every gallon. Ohhh, we're switching to "reformulated gas", which is a crock of toejam cause they've had 5-6 months to do this and gas hasn't gone down that much. I wish more people in the nation would participate in a "gas-out" to let these amazinhunks know we aint gonna take it anymore. Think about it, how long does it really take to get a tanker of "reformulated gas" up here to sell?????
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Meine Schwester hat keine kartoffel salat? Du bist eine lustige Buba!!!
[This message has been edited by Mattibaby80 (edited 09-13-2000).]
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Dnil:
improving the public transportation system should have priority then.
It is more of a logistical task to ensure that 30 cars with 1 person in gets from point A to point B than it is to make sure that 1 bus gets from A to B, C, D, E and F.
Ultimately, it's a matter of convenience.
As long as people are paying LESS for a non renewable source of energy (gas) than they do for a renewable (milk), I really don't see that much reason to complain.
I ain't banning or suggesting banning cars or something like that. There just are times when public transportation can do the same more effectively, although more inconveniently.
We're starting to pay for our rather free use of fossile fuel. Our governmetns have found that one effective way of limiting car use is by raising the cost of it. And they make bucks on it too. Great incentive, for them.
<jumps on his bike for his 35 minute ride to college, and laughs as he passes the morning traffic jams>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Dnil:
improving the public transportation system should have priority then.
It is more of a logistical task to ensure that 30 cars with 1 person in gets from point A to point B than it is to make sure that 1 bus gets from A to B, C, D, E and F.
Ultimately, it's a matter of convenience.
As long as people are paying LESS for a non renewable source of energy (gas) than they do for a renewable (milk), I really don't see that much reason to complain.
I ain't banning or suggesting banning cars or something like that. There just are times when public transportation can do the same more effectively, although more inconveniently.
We're starting to pay for our rather free use of fossile fuel. Our governmetns have found that one effective way of limiting car use is by raising the cost of it. And they make bucks on it too. Great incentive, for them.
<jumps on his bike for his 35 minute ride to college, and laughs as he passes the morning traffic jams>
Yanno if I had to ride in those jelly beans you have in Europe I wouldn't like cars either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Ah the simple pleasure of drivin the ol' jacked up redneck mobile through a mud hole...
As far as Houston goes, it has the most fubar highway system in the US. Road construction takes decades to make any progress. Fred Hartmann bridge for example. And I-10. It would be done by now if the GDMF government hadn't decided to make slopes on overpasses more gentle. Because of this the entire section of I-10 under construction(a 2 lane intersate being expanded to 3, per side) will likely be under construction for the next decade. It would of been simple to shut down one side and resurface and pave, but right now they have to build up 12 feet of road on one of the busiest hiways in around Houston.
All those cars in traffic jams everyday because of construction...bah ha ha. Keep in mind the slopes were made this way to "improve gas mileage" ...what a crock.
I just use the residential roads...10 times faster at least. And it's much better then sitting in traffic with an engine that only gets 10mpg (but 400 HP so what the hey?) Guess I could run a few over. Would that help?
- Jig
Tree Hugger's hell : being forced to watch the TNN sunday car shows over and over and over again.
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All I am saying santa is it wont work, would need ten thousand buses to do the job. It sounds good, gives ya that warm fuzzy but wont work. Come visit and I'll show ya around. It will freak you out the size of this place. Impossible to get anything done on a bus or train. Impossible to lay the track for trains for that matter. Its just not gonna happen no matter how happy it sounds. That being the case, Im a realist ya see, then whats the solution? Cleaner and more efficient engines, alternate forms of fuel? The perfect fuel source isnt out there yet. I promise I wont talk Denmark politics with ya santa, never been there. Sure as heck not gonna tell ya whats right for your country, its your country. Im sure its gorgeous and perfect and I mean that, but I havent walked in your shoes there. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Hmmm, you Brits are about 200 years too late (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
We here in the US had a problem with your government regarding a tax on tea!!!
Best of luck to you regarding your tax protest!!
[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 09-14-2000).]
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Methinks the crisis in the UK would be lessened somehwat if we still had a petroleum industry...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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macchi did u ever get ur driver licence .
Damn the feulcosts in Europe the car isn't the biggest polluter anymore.
Public traffic causes pollution too and ihate it.
Let me have my freedom too drive my beetle dammit.
if we all where on public traffic the economy would get down. coz publictraffic is a waste off time.
I enjoy driving it is a hobby.
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Jerry B - too right.
Also, its shocked me how little it took to bring the country to its knees - we must be so close to having a fuel shortage all the time.
BTW - the protest ended last night - the protesters have given the government 60 days to do something about the situation.
It will be interesting to see what we get out of this. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sure i have a driver license. I am even an educated car mechanic specialized on SAAB.
Sure every traffic causes pollution, but a bus with 60 persons or a train with 500 persons in will produce WAY less pollution per person than 1 car!
Silly argument to drive your beetle. Btw fine car, heating always runs in summer and never in winter (ex Kharman Ghia owner) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Macchi
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hehe public transportation in Houston. Why build more busses when you can build 3 new stadiums for only 47 times the price of the new busses. Santa, come to houston some time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I think it's like 60 miles across houston at it's smallest part, probobly more like 80 now. We have downtown located somewhat in the center of town. But only about 2% of the city works there. Well that's the "hub" for our public transportation system. If you want to go anywhere you've got a 1hr. bus trip downtown, then another hour where ever your going. Try transfering busses in downtown houston by yourself at 12 am sometime (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Jig, I have to disagree with you. The freeway system in Houston is one of the best in the nation. It has a couple of problem areas due to construction, but the system as a whole functions very well. I can get just about anywhere in town in 30 min. Of course during rush hours it's a cluster F, but that's only about 3 hours out of the day. Oh yeah, the Gallerea area doesn't count, there's traffic there 24/7.
udie
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Dowding -
They should've done what they did during the power strikes in the '70s - start digging into the big fuel stockpiles the armed forces have. I bet naff all will change really tho', don't you (apart from perhaps a 'suprise' fuel tax cut in the next budget before the election (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) ?
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Europeans can't relate. Their cities (towns) are not your New York, Atlanta, Dallas <put your big city here>. When I lived in England, there were more people on the bus than in cars as most could not afford their own transportation and the British had a superior public transportation system compared to the US as buses go. It was the norm there. It isn't here.
The entire mindset is diff there. We are in more of a hurry (for better or worse) than the typical Brit or European. Even more so in the larger cities than in the rural areas. Less vacation, more hours on the job, etc.. As for bikes, hehe, yea, try that in west central Florida - just don't sit next to me without taking a shower 1st (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Humidity plus 90+ degree heat is something else our beyond the big pond neighbors are not familiar with.
I don't think any gov is doing the gas price thing for the environment. It's just greed on the oil producing countries and oil companies (heck, they aren't going to lose their profits). In the long run, it can wreak the economy or start another war (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Eagler
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Originally posted by Udie:
hehe public transportation in Houston. Why build more busses when you can build 3 new stadiums for only 47 times the price of the new busses. Santa, come to houston some time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I think it's like 60 miles across houston at it's smallest part, probobly more like 80 now. We have downtown located somewhat in the center of town. But only about 2% of the city works there. Well that's the "hub" for our public transportation system. If you want to go anywhere you've got a 1hr. bus trip downtown, then another hour where ever your going. Try transfering busses in downtown houston by yourself at 12 am sometime (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Jig, I have to disagree with you. The freeway system in Houston is one of the best in the nation. It has a couple of problem areas due to construction, but the system as a whole functions very well. I can get just about anywhere in town in 30 min. Of course during rush hours it's a cluster F, but that's only about 3 hours out of the day. Oh yeah, the Gallerea area doesn't count, there's traffic there 24/7.
udie
Ugh you outta try coming from Baytown down I-10. 59 was a mess too when they did the blasting. I guess I hate Houston traffic because I'm not exposed enough to it. (and I end up nearly getting run over in the Gallerea area because it's the only remotely close CompUSA in the area, and I drive 2 1/2 ton truck that sits up so high I lose passenger cars under the nose) Fek it. I can't drive down I-10 anymore, the stupid semi truck law they passed blocks the entrance lane, it's even more dangerous when they were in the passing lane. And the right lane is totally nuked, my truck road walks so bad I can't hardly hold it on the road. Take into account the squeezes on the overpasses with over-sized construction equipment getting off and on the interstate. Of course this is all east of the San Jacinto brigde. But still the Fred Hartmann bridge was a frikin joke...it only took till the thing was 3/4th up before they found out they had bad steel. Sheesh. Sure beats the tunnel tho. I like coasting down the other side.
- Jig
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Ok i use my car for work too i work in 3 shifts by the way. There no busses leaving at 0500 also.
And i don't wanna wake up so early too walk too any busstation making me hasty too get the bus especcialy not early in the morning.
So now i can wake up at 0530 and get on time 0600 (not driving slowly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) If i had to that with a bus i would have wake up at 04:45 catch line A to point A where i must take bus B to go for point B where i can get the bus to point C (where i work) noway public traffic is as effiecient as autocars. it costs to much time .
Yep my heater is messed up lol
but i understand u don't wanna drive anymore too, without your karman ghia damn terrific car.
Saab only frontwheel drive not as much fun as backwheel :lol
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Friend was a VW freak: 1303S with 2,3liter engine with 170-180hp. That thing beated all GSi/GTi cars with wide marginal (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Some people looked funny when we pass them in motorway 150-160km/h speed showing only 3 finger (third gear you know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) on side window (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Later he build a new, more powerfull version for a buggy and that car almost could fly...
Bad thing was the engine needed to be rebuilt almost as often as oil change.
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Price of the crude oil went up from $10 to over $30 a barrel recently.
Main reasons:
OPEC cartel is a monopoly. They set the price and limit the production. First they drive the price to $10 and knock western producers out of business, then they drive prices up. Western producers are afraid to invest in oil production now because the same can be easily repeated.
If western goverments introduced a sliding tariff on the price of oil so no matter how cheap OPEC would sell it, it would cost no less then $18 on the western market, the western producers would be guaranteed some profit. North sea and Texas oil production would resume and west would be less dependent on OPEC's whims. Then OPEC would not be able to drive the price through the roof again.
People in the western countries, especially in USA after few years of great economy and cheap gasoline started buying huge gas-guzzling all-terrain vehicles even though they drive on paved city roads.
People buy bigger houses made of cardboard that require lot of heating in the winter and air-conditioning in the summer.
So by those actions we are becoming more dependent on the same Arab countries that produce oil.
Well, yu want to drive that moster car - you pay for it.
The electric cars are roadkill. You have to burn fuel and transport electricity and that fuel. You also have to invest billions in infrastructure (more fuel), produce expencive batteries, dispose of them properly, etc.
Since plants are more efficient at burning fuel, you get at most 20% improvement for all the years and billions spent.
It is much more realistic to improve the fuel efficiency of the current cars by 20% by using modern technologies and materials.
Or we could build more nuclear stations deep underground. Those may blow up and poison us. Burning fuel definitely poisons us now.
How come US is hit the least by the fuel prices? Because americans had their lesson in 70s and economy now is much more fuel efficient.
You can and exercise or run near a busy american highway. Whenever I step our into the european street, I smell the gasoline even if there only are a few cars around - fuel efficiency and air quality standards are dismal. Most of the europeans smoking on top of that, and you can forget jogging in the city.
miko
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Originally posted by bike killa:
btw can someone change "level" of my life from Nightmare to Easy mode
cheer up bike. There is a lots of levels between Nightmare and Easy. Took me twenty years to get there. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
mietla
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Originally posted by Macchi:
People should better change to public traffic (if they have the luck to live in a fre land which gives you this opportunity).
you do that, and I'll keep driving my beloved SUV. This way everybody is happy.
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Miko
I know only Finland but were those "Europeans" too:
Most of the cars sold here are 1,3-2,0 liter "family cars"; Using unleaded fuel (added chemical oxygen) and 3-way catalysators (got a law for those too).
They took about 6-8 liter 95 octan fuel in 100km. Dad got a Citroen ZX 1.4; 5,5 liter/100km.
So how's that fuel efficiency again ?
edit: 5,5liter/100km = 1,45 U.S Gall/62Mile = 43miles/gallon
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 09-14-2000).]
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Actually Stega.. more than half the cars sold here match those stats too. Well.. maybe not 1.3 liter... more like 1.6-2.2 liter. We use unleaded fuel only (some places add ethanol). If you get the economy cars, you can get 40 mpg. There is a VW Jetta selling well that gets 70 mpg (turbo-diesel).
Most of the big stuff is either in trucks or older cars.
BTW... I used to have a 150 hp jetta (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I liked it... but I needed a station wagon so I had to trade it in on my Audi.
AKDejaVu
AKDejaVu
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Yep DejaVu; Realities suck...
I might had to buy a Seat Toledo or Leon turbo-diesel too... Old Peugeot 405 now.
Few years ago I was looking at Oldsmobile Cutlass from -70 (not sure what year that was anymore). I tested it and it was kinda fun when you hit the pedal to the medal (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Then I realised I need a car to go to work too and with our gasoline prices I had to forget it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
(Saw top cond. Buick GS 455 last week; Maybe I should sell my car and take a loan (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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1.3? My gawd.
My '79 Bronco had a 6.6L orginally. But then again you don't see European vehicles towing boats and other recreational and agricultural stuff around (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I can literally pull a good size tree down with my truck. I lived in a rural area most of my like where the town was about 12 miles down the highway and we bought gas by the month (or even year) by storing it in a huge tank on the property. No taxs of course, agriculture tax break. But anyway what I was getting at was that I needed a big 4X4 vehicle capable of hauling at least 4 people and doing multi role. Well it does just that. Take the top off and the rear seat and it becomes a small bed truck. I can get up and down the dirt roads on the property easy with mud tires (they are really big (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )...
anyway the thing gets about 15mpg (at around 400HP, 400 fp torque, I hypo'd it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
Some of us need big gas guzzling cars to make a living.
My family did run all fuel 2 cylinder John Deeres for many many years, along with LP models (natural gas) JD's if it makes ya feel better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And now I still drive that '79 Bronc because it's still in great shape (and it looks friggan cool, lol) , gets good gas milage for a 5 thousand pound people hauler and it's alot cheaper then buying a 30k + equvilant now that can't double in truck duty.
If public transportation can do that I'm all for it, but until, forget it.
- Jig
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btw the way if any of yall are in the US, and around Baytown for a while I can show ya why we US dweebs like gas guzzling horsepower monsters (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
going out on the weekends and bellying up in mud is a bonding expirence, except for the guy that has to get out and work the come-a-long (winchs are for whimps!)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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Originally posted by Jigster:
1.3? My gawd.
My '79 Bronco had a 6.6L orginally. But then again you don't see European vehicles towing boats and other recreational and agricultural stuff around (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
LOL, Jig, maybe you dont see there European vehicles towing boats, here they do it, easy.
Not personal mode on (dont feel offended, pls)
Amazing me this attitude: my cars are better than yours, my army is better than yours, my government is better than yours, my laws are better than yours, my troubles are bigger than yours.. etc. etc.
Seems all different versions of "my noodle is bigger than yours".
Childlike attitude.
Is not surprising lot of people with this attitude come from the same country. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Not personal mode off
BTW, i like the Dodge Viper, is a beauty!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But the Ferrari F50, or the Lamborghini bigtoeach, theese are The sportcars.
Explain me, why are you so nationalistic about cars in a nation where is a Status Symbol to own an European car?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
p.s.
The fact is not how big willie are, but how you use it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Remember: Italians do it better !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Joke:
A taxpayer was on his way home from work, when he came to a dead halt in traffic and thought to himself, "Wow, this traffic seems worse than usual. Nothing's moving." He noticed a police officer walking back and
forth between the lines of cars, so he rolled down his window and asked, "Officer what's the hold up?" The officer replied:
"The Prime Minister is just so depressed about all the fuel blockades and that his whiter than white image has been tarnished, that he stopped his car in the middle of the motorway under protest, and he's threatening
to douse himself in gasoline and set himself on fire. He says everybody hates him and he doesn't have the money to pay for Euans drinking habit. We're taking up a collection for him." The tax payer said: "Oh really? How much do you have so far?" The officer said: "About three hundred gallons, but a
lot of folks are still siphoning."
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
C/O, JG5 'Eismeer' (EAW)
http://www.madasafish.com/jerry/jg5/ (http://www.madasafish.com/jerry/jg5/)
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You go ahead and drive, I sure will, a bigass car with a bigass engine, once I get the money.
But pay for the pollution. Smog ain't too healthy, and acid rain not too good to forests.
As long as a non renewable source of energy is cheaper than a renewable one, don't squeak about it.
Europeans are just as much in a hurry as Americans are, and that is a bad fluff'ng thing.
Cheap gas prices ain't a right.
------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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After giving this issue some thought I've come up with only two options:
1) Put tax money into alternate energy solutions, mass transport, etc.
2) Put tax money into over-bloated military which will guarantee the Middle East stays in line.
The first solution is difficult because of corporate influence over government.
The second solution is expensive but it works.
Walk softly and command an armored division is what I always say. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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From:"Gas Prices Spur Outrage", KC Star, Sept. 13, 2000"
Here's a list of Fuel Prices/Tax/Total by Nation (by gallon). Source is listed as the Associated Press, so if you disagree, call THOSE left-wing socialist biased media-mongers, not me! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Great Britain $1.25/$3.06/$4.31
Norway $1.25/$3.05/$4.30
Finland $1.42/$2.76/$4.18
Netherlands $1.33/$2.57/$3.90
France $1.14/$2.67/$3.81
Belgium $1.26/$2.46/$3.72
Italy $1.32/$2.36/$3.68
Sweden $1.22/$2.46/$3.68
Denmark $1.20/$2.44/$3.64
Germany $1.08/$2.42/$3.50
Austria $1.25/$1.96/$3.21
Ireland $1.34/$1.85/$3.19
Portugal $1.59/$1.41/$3.00
Luxembourg $1.25/$1.60/$2.85
Greece $1.35/$1.47/$2.82
Spain $1.17/$1.62/$2.79
United States $1.17/$0.37/$1.54
So, let's see....
Highest/Lowest GAS price:
Portugal, $1.59/ Germany $1.08
Highest/Lowest TAX:
Great Britain, $3.06/ US $0.37
StSanta: "Cheap gas prices ain't a right."
True. It seems the world market has pretty well determined the price of GAS all by itself, without "rights" being involved. It's generally between $1.59 and $1.08 for most countries, and the US doesn't have the lowest price.
The TAX on gas appears to be the item that deals with "rights"....taxpayer's rights! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The US does have the lowest taxes....hmmmm, go figure!
The ultimate, final price of a gallon of gas obviously depends on what your particular government decides it can get away with in taxes without causing a rebellion.
Looks like the Brits have found their limit!
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Originally posted by Naso:
LOL, Jig, maybe you dont see there European vehicles towing boats, here they do it, easy.
Not personal mode on (dont feel offended, pls)
Amazing me this attitude: my cars are better than yours, my army is better than yours, my government is better than yours, my laws are better than yours, my troubles are bigger than yours.. etc. etc.
Seems all different versions of "my noodle is bigger than yours".
Childlike attitude.
Is not surprising lot of people with this attitude come from the same country. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Not personal mode off
BTW, i like the Dodge Viper, is a beauty!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But the Ferrari F50, or the Lamborghini bigtoeach, theese are The sportcars.
Explain me, why are you so nationalistic about cars in a nation where is a Status Symbol to own an European car?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
p.s.
The fact is not how big willie are, but how you use it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Remember: Italians do it better !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
LOL sorry if I came off nationlistic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But in all honesty I needed a vehicle like that to make a living. There has been times when I'd have to ride an ATV that 12 miles because bridges etc would wash out up there. That ain't no fun when it's 19 degrees out side (pretty damn cold for Texas) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
But I think the problem is so many Americans treat their cars like children. And it's our (pardon me, sorry) baised opinion that we spend much more time tinkering and messing with our cars then European counter-parts. I did, and do alot of restoration on old vehicles, but it's had to drive 'em when ya work on them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I have several old 1940 era John Deere Tractors and a Farmall 'Super A' that I've restored from the ground up and I take perhaps a little to much pride from the fact I did that all myself. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
All us Americanos are dweebs anyway.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
You go ahead and drive, I sure will, a bigass car with a bigass engine, once I get the money.
But pay for the pollution. Smog ain't too healthy, and acid rain not too good to forests.
As long as a non renewable source of energy is cheaper than a renewable one, don't squeak about it.
Europeans are just as much in a hurry as Americans are, and that is a bad fluff'ng thing.
Cheap gas prices ain't a right.
I'm never in a hurry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Btw I have mid-size crawler that runs off methane, and light-duty tractor that runs off a hydrogen fuel cell. That alone makes up for the gas guzzler (I end up using the alot more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Once we get rid of oil companys Hydrogen will prolly become the renewable fuel source.
But to close down the oil refineries would be to kill the lively hood of alot of people,
like where I currently live, Baytown, home of the biggest refinery in the US, Exxon. And there lies the problem.
- Jig
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Public Transport is a joke in the UK. If I didn't drive the 5.5 miles to work then the next quickest option would be to walk! No train, very infrequent buses. A friend that lives 18 miles from where I work would have to travel 65 miles by train (not a direct route to nearest train station), then catch a bus to work, which in all would take about 4 hours! A joke!
As for the Defence side of things in the UK. Well when Blair entered Parliament he annouced many wishes and he fulfilled some of those. BUT we later found out that he robbed the BILLIONS from the emergency war fund to pay for everything! No wonder out Navy can't go to sea, our planes are falling apart, and our Army has some really crap equipment! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Oh well, I'm just glad that Blair has been given a bloody nose. We've been waiting for a bypass to our town for 45 years and we still haven't got it!! (now if he spend some of those fuel tax on roads... transport... blah...)
That's my moan over! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
'Nexx'
[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 09-15-2000).]
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Europeans have high gas prices--and small countries. They don't need cars like Americans do.
The problem is, Europeans don't realize how B-I-G the USA is. BIG means low population density--and low population density is why public transportation will never solve the USA's sutomobile dependency.
I live 20 miles from work, 25 miles from school, 40 miles from a major hospital, 11 miles from a major shopping area, and 14 miles from my girlfriend. It is common for me to put over 120 miles on my car in a single day (200 km). I make slightly over minimum wage as a college student working my part-time job. Do the math.
If gas costed $5/gallon like it does in Europe, I would go broke very fast, even if I could afford a new car which gets good gas mileage (cars cost a lot, and I don't have a lot of money.) At $5/gallon, driving the car I have no choice but to drive, I would have to spend about 25 bucks a day just driving...which is almost what I make in my part-time after college job. Gas prices like Europe has would crush the American economy.
I WISH I could ride public transportation. However, there is no such thing in rural areas--it isn't practical. Would you send a bus to pick up three people? Who all have different destinations? Nope. Much of Americas population is very spread out.
And, I live in a small town, not "out in the boonies"
Europeans, consider this:
Some of my relatives live in West Virginia. There, the normal commute to work is about 50 miles each way. And, the roads are so bad, a 4 wheel drive vehicle is a MUST, especially in winter. 4 wheel drive vehicles don't exactly get good gas mileage, either. Also keep in mind that West Virginia is not a wealthy state. Most of the people are, by your standards, "below average" in income. No chance to buy a "modern car" which costs a lot. A pickup truck is the norm. There is NO WAY public transportation could serve these people, the population density is VERY low. There is NO WAY expensive gas would help them....it would utterly destroy their lives. These poeple need cars to survive.
Before Europeans say "Americans should use public transportation, it would solve their silly dependency on cars", they need to get a grasp of how BIG the USA is. This one country is larger than all of Europe, by FAR.
A single store in America, such as a "Super K-mart", is actually larger than an entire city block in many European cities.
American needs cars, for good or bad. It's the only way a country this big could possibly work. Yes, they are a mixed blessing, with more than their fair share of drawbacks. But, there is NO practical alternative. This country is simply too big and spread out.
J_A_B
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I had a friend that retired a while ago, and he had one of the very rare '69 Boss 429 Ford Mustangs (an extremely powerful and fast car lemme tell ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) Anyway he had family in Germany and at some point or another he had the car shipped over there. He told me about his whirl on the autobahn.
I believe this was back before they reduced the speed limit because he said he was rarely under 170 mph (and a gear left on the street fighter trans) And wass
getting passed all the time.
Well I thought it was funny till he got back on the next day where a Ferrari came up along side at (i think) was an intersection by an on ramp. They guy "challanged" him by doing a lil revving up. Now the way he tells it is he stomped that Boss 429 and left the Ferrari in a white cloud of smoke and never left off till he was running around 200 when he looked back...and never saw the other guy. Several minutes later the other guy comes whizzing by him.
Now what's really silly is he met the guy later (and they've since become pretty good friends) because the dude was a exec at Bayer Corp where my friend use to work.
Classic example of the American Muscle vs the European Speed Demons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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Originally posted by Naso:
LOL, Jig, maybe you dont see there European vehicles towing boats, here they do it, easy.
Not personal mode on (dont feel offended, pls)
Amazing me this attitude: my cars are better than yours, my army is better than yours, my government is better than yours, my laws are better than yours, my troubles are bigger than yours.. etc. etc.
Seems all different versions of "my noodle is bigger than yours".
Childlike attitude.
Is not surprising lot of people with this attitude come from the same country. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Not personal mode off
BTW, i like the Dodge Viper, is a beauty!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But the Ferrari F50, or the Lamborghini bigtoeach, theese are The sportcars.
Explain me, why are you so nationalistic about cars in a nation where is a Status Symbol to own an European car?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
p.s.
The fact is not how big willie are, but how you use it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Remember: Italians do it better !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Btw given the porked US laws (unless you live in Montana) US is all about acceleration, not top speed (although the Viper is good at both, I have a cousin who I suspect in some kinda illegal activity, that has a Viper and I've been through the first 3 gears in it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) )
The reason those cars are status symbols are they cost so dang much (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) They are sweet cars, but your not gonna see very many Americans pay that much for a car when they can buy 10 steet drag cars for the price of one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 09-15-2000).]
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Replicant - Lets just hope the conservatives don't get in power - they must take alot of responsibility over the state of public transport; all these shrecking private companies looking after shareholder's interests - screw anybody who wants a decent service. The way they see it, provided you meet very, very basic standards (as far as the developed world goes), they can charge as much for as little as they see fit.
God I hate the conservatives more than I dislike 'New' Labour. And William Hague went to my school as a kid, BTW. All the treachers who taught him, say he was one weird bloke. Slimy bastard.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-16-2000).]
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Originally posted by Dowding:
...all these shrecking private companies looking after shareholder's interests -
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-16-2000).]
While I sympathise somewhat with most of what you say, this is EXACTLY what private companies are SUPPOSED to do.
Unfortunately, they rarely look after the shareholders. Usually, they look after the top corporate executives to the exclusion of all else.
If the private companies are supposed to be supplying a service to the public, that's when the government is supposed to lay out the guidelines.
I agree with you, however, that these theories are having some trouble in the real world.
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I realise that the role of private companies is essentially to make a profit - the point I was trying to make was that they should not be in charge of a countries public transport. The whole industry becomes fractionated and inconsistent (in this county anyway). Having a decent public transport becomes a lottery based on location only.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-16-2000).]
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One downside to privately owned public transportations is that as a company, its responsibility revolves around the share holders, not the citizens. The dollar becomes the bottom line, not the public.
AKDejaVu
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I'd say it is an upside. If you are responsible to shareholders, you better take care of your customers. It's only after the government takes over a segment of the economy that everything goes south.
No shareholders, no customers, who cares. In SF you can't fire a bus driver for being drunk or on drugs (on a job), neither you can fire a bus driver for causing 9 serious accidents withing two years.
Yeah, that's what we need, a company whose purpose is to make an employee happy, screw the customer.
I break my back at work, and I expect everybody else to do the same when I am the customer.
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Interesting thread. I thought I heard someone mention big engines?
I got your big engine hanging right here...
(http://heathblair.tripod.com/boat2.jpg)
StSanta, when you come over to see Houston, I'll take you for a ride down the river.
Its great to be a wasteful, oppurtunistic, big blockin' American. (460 cid)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The mustang, another very nice car, maybe the prob is in mixed road, when you need to curve, adherence is'nt so good.
About the ferrari story, well, depende wich type was, better confrontation will be with some top on the line model (as the must boss was), say a F40 or F50, and without modifications. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I like Viper, because is a good compromise beetween brutal power and good control.
p.s.
Never tryed to drive a Ferrari in a mixed road, or better in a circuit? turn in a dime like a zero, and have the speed of the runstang. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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There were a little race between Mustang "Boss 429" and Challenger "Hemi 426" in one race track here.
Both cars were restored to their original condition; Challenger with 2*4bbl and automatic transmission and Mustang 1*4 barrel and "Four on the floor". Boss was faster in turns but Hemi could drive away from Boss in straight parts of track.
I'll scan some pics when got some free time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I've read all the responses here with considerable interest, so let me add another angle. I run my own business in the UK. To earn my money, I have to travel. I'd love to use public transport, but it simply isn't viable. My current assignment is in Milton Keynes, 25 miles away. I can take the bus at 07:15 to get to work at approx 09:15, and the last bus from MK is approx 18:00. Or I can drive, taking 45 mins each way with no restrictions. An earlier assignment was in Oxford. The bus takes over 2 hours to get there. Public transport is simply not a viable alternative.
Let's move on to the tax itself. I have no objection to paying taxes *per se* - defence et al have to be funded somehow - but I do object to paying tax before I've actually made any profit. The current fuel tax significantly impacts my profitability.
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Originally posted by hblair:
Interesting thread. I thought I heard someone mention big engines?
I got your big engine hanging right here...
StSanta, when you come over to see Houston, I'll take you for a ride down the river.
Its great to be a wasteful, oppurtunistic, big blockin' American. (460 cid)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I hear ya HB (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.geocities.com/panzerdweeb/strleft1.jpg)
(http://www.geocities.com/panzerdweeb/76header.jpg)
They belong to a couple of buddies of mine, working on getting a few pics of the big yeller beast right now.
(and in case anyone hasn't guessed by now those are Ford Broncos, '79 and '76 on 44" and 33" tires, respectively)
- Jig
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Originally posted by blur:
After giving this issue some thought I've come up with only two options:
1) Put tax money into alternate energy solutions, mass transport, etc.
2) Put tax money into over-bloated military which will guarantee the Middle East stays in line.
The first solution is difficult because of corporate influence over government.
The second solution is expensive but it works.
Walk softly and command an armored division is what I always say. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Blur,
The concept of an "overbloated military" is very archaic. It shows you really haven't a clue as to the conditions in the military. There are massive personell shortages caused by fewer enlistees. Why? Several reasons.
1. Better pay outside the military
2. Better living conditions outside the military particularly if you have a family.
3. Lack of respect for those who risk their lives to safeguard the whiners outside the military who never put themselves in harms way.
4. Overextention of the few forces that are in the military. Overseas tours are back to back with little stateside time to spend with family.
5. Quite a bit of the equipment in the military has exceeded its design life and there is no indication of replacements coming. Best example. No one in the airforce is older than the B52's that are still front line items.
6. Military retirement is not sufficient to be able to retire on.
7. DAMN!!! Those in the military are expected to FIGHT?!?!?! That could put a crimp in your college plans!
There are quite a few others but it JUST SOUNDS SO COOL to complain about the "military industrial complex" doesn't it?
If you're looking for pork in the budget, look to congress and the whitehouse. After all, we had to fund 3 helicopters for Chelsea's birthday this last year.
Mav
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LOL Jigster! What part of the desert do you guys hose down so you can take those things "Muddin"?
I think Frued would have a hay-day with you and your choice of tires (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
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I'd say it is an upside. If you are responsible to shareholders, you better take care of your customers.
What about the smaller comunities that won't use public(private) transportation enough to make it econimically viable for a corporation to send a bus there? That is where big buisness has problems with civil support. When the bottom dollar line becomes so much more important than the minority customers.
The misconception then becomes "As long as they are showing a profit, they must be doing it right". Its easy for big-buisness to ignore the minority... afterall... big-buisness doesn't have to run for re-election.
AKDejaVu
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Never been muddin, but done some real back country 4-wheelin in Colorado. Trust me the big tires are needed!
If the rock is bigger than your tire, you need bigger tires!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-19-2000).]
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To answer Rip's original question: "With 75% taxes on it? WHAT the hell is the European Gov't doing with all that money?"
Subsidizing Airbus.
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<StSanta recalls a piece of software that enabled industrial espionage on European companies>
Oh, I wonder why the American government really dinnae like strong encryption software being exported. They even wanted "keys" from the makers so that they more easily could access the information. Sure, their supercomputers can crack 2048 bit encryption pretty easily, but newer systems take some time.
I believe some European companies, including the aviation industry, lost out due to industrial espionage through this software. Thee's some circumstantial evidence supporting it. I'll have to dig it up.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Trust me I can show you some mud holes that will gobble up a Semi.
There's a place called Shiloh Ridge just north of Alto, a guy made a big 4X4 ranch where ya pay a small fee and ya basically do whatever you want in his natural and man-made truck traps.
We use to go hunting for silt beds and rock holes after it rained (dirt roads are bad about those kinda things, specially when near a river)...now we got 'em all mapped.
I'm thinkin about buying a jeep to make into a rock climbing rig...the post '77 Broncos are just to heavy for it (about 5,000 pounds). The early Broncos can easily be rigged with hypo 302's but they ain't as flexible as jeeps as far as suspension mods go.
Btw that big blue thing might be ugly but he can dang near smoke all 4 tires in 4 wheel drive. 526 Ford (from 460 block) putting out over 600 HP and 800 foot/pounds of torque. Then there's a 400HP nitrous boost. That dang thing is a monster.
- Jig
winchs are for the weak.
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Funked - the money on fuel has been spent on a free health service, education (including subsidising university education) etc. Although neither are ideal, it beats taking up private health insurance or saving all your lives to send your kids to university, if you have little money.
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Originally posted by funked:
To answer Rip's original question: "With 75% taxes on it? WHAT the hell is the European Gov't doing with all that money?"
Subsidizing Airbus.
THANK YOU, someone FINALLY answered the question with what I guess could be the correct answer, so, what we possibly have here is Aero-space workers who are actually on welfare??!?! ROTFLOL !!!!
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Funked - the money on fuel has been spent on a free health service, education (including subsidising university education) etc. Although neither are ideal, it beats taking up private health insurance or saving all your lives to send your kids to university, if you have little money.
Until you are really ill, or until have a life threatening disease/injury, you'll be satisfied with public health care, God forbid if you ever become seriously ill, you'll eat those words, I know from fact.
What is wrong with saving for our childrens futures? If I made $10 a day, I'd still set something aside for my kids for their education...
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Dowding,
I agree with my countryman here. It is my reponsibility to save for my child's education, not the government. I have made investments with a modest amount and think I can provide an education for my son. I had to do it on my own, no dad (he died when I was 7) ansd I worked my way through college. I found I appreciated it much more than those kids who's family (or government) paid for the education they received. I intend that my son also work to help support his education as well so he can appreciate the value it has.
I feel people (me included) value that which has cost them something to obtain. They do not value that which is merely received for no effort.
Mav <-- crusty old fart
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<- values his education, even though elements of it is very tedious, boring and should be left out.
Yet we have free universities here. Actually, the government is smart about ths; educated people earn more, give the country a competitive edge, and tend to be less prone to violence. Educated people generally belong to a part of the population with relatively small unemployment, too. And they seem to be less prone to react to political issues purely emotionally, making the political process more efficient.
Case in point; on the 28th, the population of Denmark votes with regards to the European Monetary Union. Amongst people with no university education, only 28% says aye. Amongst people with a longer education, the ayes have it by 71%. Our rightist party Fremskridtspartiet (the Progress Party) plays on the emotional tunes such as "preserving what is Danish" and "Slippery Slope" logical errors, and, consequently, a comparatively large segment of the uneducated population supports those rightists.
An educated population is a benefit to a society. To large an uneducated one becomes a burden. I believe it is in the interest o a society as a whole to provide free university education. Free in monetary sense only; it ain't free in any other way, judging by the homework I have left to do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
Off to lectures now, gonna learn how to make Aces High II (2d flight sim out soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), stunning 4 colour graphics at the moment, two flying planes, the JG54 Greenheart and the Dweeb Tschog-4)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again"
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Trust me I can show you some mud holes that will gobble up a Semi.
LOL! spoken like a true Texan. Let me tell ya a little secret. Buy a map of Oregon some time. Circle the whole state. That's our mud-bog.
If that's not quite good enough for ya... we'll send you up to Washington. 100 Feet of snow translates to quite a bit of mud.
Hehehehe... mud bogs my bellybutton (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
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I never said that you SHOULDN'T save for your kids education - my point is that you shouldn't have to - education should be free to all, regardless of financial status. By allowing only the wealthiest individuals to attend higher education, you are throwing away a huge proportion of bright kids. This in the end is uneconomical; the economic status of the country would increase if more people went to uni. - higher paid jobs, bringing money into the country from overseas investment, is just one advantage.
I think education can solve alot of social problems. At uni. you meet alot of people, and your attitudes are shaped by your experiences. Black, white, gay, straight, bi, rich, poor, disabled - in the end it doesn't matter - you learn to appreciate people for who they are. If I'd stayed in the small northern town (which I certainly would have done, since my parents couldn't have afforded to pay for my education), with its small minded ideas, I wouldn't be as well-rounded as I am today. Its easy for people to be bigoted about someone based on their ignorance of that lifestyle , until they actually talk to someone whom they would normally despise. I personally used to be that way.
My education was paid for by the government - and I cannot put a value on it. Just because I didn't pay for the tuition doesn't mean I worked less for it. I came away with a good degree from one of the best universities in the UK. As for working for money, that is something I did every summer so I could afford to live at uni.
Ripsnort - I know from experience how good the health service is here, despite its critics. Just before my finals, 3 months ago, I had the first epileptic fit of my life. Didn't know it at the time, the only way to find out for sure was to have a whole battery of tests. Expensive tests that I, as someone who as just left uni. and doesn't have any money, couldn't afford without the NHS. I'm just very grateful that we have such a system here, despite its faults.
StSanta - you're spot on there about the Euro. We have the same situation here - the conservatives playing on emotional arguments about preserving the 'greatness' of Britain and its sovreignty etc etc. I'm just waiting for the British Bulldog spirit to be exploited, with comments such as "Monetary union did not win us the War, did it?" Or, "Churchill said..." I'm for monetary union, any doubts I have concern making sure the conditions are right, not that we don't want to lose the pound.
BTW - I don't understand the Airbus link to high taxes. Could someone explain?
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-20-2000).]
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Dowding,
Please note, I am not being nasty about this but I'll never be able to get you to understand the crux of the post I made about the value of education. Both as a student myself or as a teacher, I have seen many students sitting in a class and doing only that which was necessary to slide by. Some did ansolutely nothing. The teachers knew they couldn't fail the kid, they were required to promote them. They will graduate with all the benefits of the years of "seat time" they spent in a classroom as required by government regulation. The Government regulation says they are entitled to a free education or a chance at one. There is no regulation that the student actually learn. We have seen later suits brought by these "graduates" of a free education wanting to sue the state for not making sure they learned. Like Ripley said, "believe it or not".
They had no concept of the value of what they were throwing away. Perhaps in a socialist nation, or at least one with a socialist "bent" to it a free education is a right granted by a government. Here the government does not grant rights.
I still stand by my position that a person does not value that which cost them nothing to obtain.
Mav
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4 kids in my family on an AF Major's salary (hint: it was peanuts in the '60's); all got University degrees.
My brother went to a national miliatary academy; he paid it back by serving.
My sister worked her way through; she ran her own ballet classes on the side.
I was on a military ROTC scholarship and paid it back by serving.
My younger sister worked her way through as well, mostly as hospital staff.
Anyone that wants a degree here can get it.
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It would take alot more than what you say to offend me, Maverick don't worry. Criticising my football team would be a good start though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I can only comment on what I have experienced while in the British education system, so bare with me. Firstly, from the age of 14-16 kids take what are known as GCSE's. This is a structured program, with qualifications given based on performance in exams (taken at the end of the two years) or ongoing coursework. Believe me, you do no work here and you will fail and not get the qualification; I know alot of people who this has happened to.
At 16 you can move on to GCE 'A'-levels, based on what you achieved at GCSE; if you don't get the neccessary grades you can't do them - it's as simple as that. A-levels qualifications are given based on exams etc as before.
A-levels are then used to gain entry to university. Most people take 3 A-levels and points are awarded depending on what grade was achieved. Each university has a points and subject requirement. No work = crap grades = no university or a poor one (and any degree you get is then laughed at by employers).
Degree courses at most university's are not a push over - hard work is required and you get nothing for just turning up at lectures to increase your 'seat time' as you put it. Universiy's have no obligation to give a student a degree just because they made it that far. I knew people who were kicked out because they just smoked pot all day and did sweet FA the rest of the time.
Actually getting a degree requires committment, money to pay living expenses and very hard work. The pressure is on to get a good degree so you can get a decent well paid job, and make the time you spent studying worth it in the living standards stakes. It costs them plenty to obtain it, believe me. Why must everything be measured in purely monetary terms? An ex-girlfriend, for instance, had a nervous breakdown while at Cambridge uni. completing her finals. That cost her plenty - and I'm sure she wasn't an isolated case.
So to sum up (I know it was pretty boring), at no stage in the British education system can an individual do no work and still come out with the goods. It's simply not possible.
Also, most students finish their studies up to their eyes in debt (I know I did). BTW - students now have to pay a heavily subsidized part of their tuition fees, which is paid by taking out student loans. It's a disgrace that a 'socialist' government has brought this measure in, but that's another story entirely.
As I said I can't comment on your system - I haven't worked through it.
It's very commendable that your relatives could find a way to get to university - but why make self-improvement such a hard target to attain? Working on the side while studying is a very hard thing to do, and succeed academically (I know from both personal experience and from that of friends). I have nothing but admiration for anyone who can pull it off. But I know plenty of people who couldn't and ended up with crappy degrees as a result.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
LOL! spoken like a true Texan. Let me tell ya a little secret. Buy a map of Oregon some time. Circle the whole state. That's our mud-bog.
If that's not quite good enough for ya... we'll send you up to Washington. 100 Feet of snow translates to quite a bit of mud.
Hehehehe... mud bogs my bellybutton (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
We've got swamps the size of Vermont in east Texas. I could try to show you those things but even our trucks won't make it there. Gotta use air boats. And the Skeeters rival the Buzzards in size. And it's to far from any beer. The cooler runs low after halfway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
- Jig
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Originally posted by Dowding:
It's very commendable that your relatives could find a way to get to university - but why make self-improvement such a hard target to attain
I don't think any of us thought it was a "big deal" or a "hard target". We knew what we wanted out of life and we knew what we needed to get there. So, we did it.
I don't think we are much different than anyone else, either. A "State University" education in the state of your residence isn't all that expensive. If you really want it, it's available.
If you value that "free education" and all the other government benefits you have written about then it doesn't seem to me that you should be complaining about the high taxes. Gas tax is pretty much where this thread started.
Any sentient adult knows there's no such thing as a free lunch. SOMEBODY is paying for all that stuff. Looks like your government has chosen to make people that use petroleum products pay a hefty share of the bill for all the "free" things.
If you choose to allow your government to allocate your income without your input to that degree....it's certainly OK by me because I don't live there. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I would prefer a government that stays out of my life and out of my pocket to the maximum extent possible....although it seems more and more that we are sliding towards your type of government.
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Maverick:
While university education is free here, depending on what you want to become, it ain't easy to get in. Average grades to become a doc, for instance, are very high.
The college I attend have policies too; too low average grades, and yer out, no talk about it. Fail two exams in the same class, yer out.
So, no walk in the park paid by society. You have to earn your degree here as elsewhere (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
<Looks at homework, decides to put it off til tomorrow (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
--
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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The point about the petrol tax is that it doesn't tax everyone, unlike say income tax. It is unfair and is a 'stealth tax'. Paying taxes doesn't bother me, per se, but they have to be fair and tax the whole population. I don't mind tax on petrol, but do mind when it's at the level it is at the moment.
As you say, you can go to State universities in the US. But am I right in saying that to go to Harvard, Yale etc, it costs a lot more money? Here, it doesn't work like that - Oxford and Cambridge can be attained whatever background you come from. Having said that though, it did used to be elitist and only accept people from non-state schools, and that was true for Durham many years ago. Times have changed however.
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But am I right in saying that to go to Harvard, Yale etc, it costs a lot more money?
These schools are not more expensive than most private schools. They aren't necessarily elitist either. They simply have very high standards for admissions. They have very tough academic standards once admitted. A degree from any of these schools is worth its weight in gold for these very reasons.
I'd also throw MIT in there on the engineering side of the house. Johns Hopkins on the medical side of the house.
There are at least 6 colleges in Oregon alone that are more expensive than any of these schools. Probably as many as 10.
I can't quite put a finger on just why certain schools cost so much. But, in a capitalist society, you charge what you can get a way with. Let the county and state colleges handle the rest.
Fortunately, schools like Harvard, Stanford and so on aren't purely capitalistic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
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Also, Dowding...
There is a fine line between a stealth tax and a deterence tax. One is meant to be hidden. The other is meant to discourage use of the product. By the way.. how much does a pack of cigarettes run in England?
Its really no different than a tax on electricity.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 09-21-2000).]
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Oil was $38 buck a barrel yesterdays price, all time high, its gonna get worse before it gets better....(For those of you that don't remember, it was $19/barrel just 2 years ago)
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Originally posted by Dowding:
The point about the petrol tax is that it doesn't tax everyone, unlike say income tax...but they have to be fair and tax the whole population...
As you say, you can go to State universities in the US. But am I right in saying that to go to Harvard, Yale etc, it costs a lot more money? Here, it doesn't work like that - Oxford and Cambridge can be attained whatever background you come from.
I don't know about England's Income Tax, but here in the US it doesn't tax everyone and those it does tax it doesn't tax at the same rate. So that sort of contradicts your logic here. Not everyone is contributing equally to these societal benefits. (Note: I'm not debating the rights/wrongs of progressive income tax with an "exclusionary" level of low income. We can do that later. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Apparently, what you are the most upset about is the RATE of taxation, according to what you just posted. Hey, remember, there's no such thing as a "free" lunch. You want all those goodies, someone has to pay.
Are you saying all your Universities are as good as Oxford or Cambridge? Thus ALL your potential students have a "right" to a free education of Oxford or Cambridge quality?
No, more likely, SOME go to Oxford or Cambridge just as SOME here go to Yale or Harvard, which are more expensive but not all that much. The idea that those schools are the only place in either country to deliver a quality education is ludicrous, however.
If your country decides to subsidize Oxford and Cambridge students more than my country subsidizes Harvard or Yale students...then you're getting what you pay for and so am I. Pay your gas tax and smile that you have such a good system. I'll pay my gas tax and I'll smile that I have the system that suits me. In BOTH cases, the schools are at max enrollment so we wouldn't be producing a greater quantity of illustrious scholars in any event
There's plenty of government loan and aid programs here for college students that NEED it. Probably not as much in the way of "free" government handouts here as you have there, though.
I'm glad you like your system. I like ours; any motivated person can achieve a university degree.
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Dowding and St Santa,
The education system in the states is free.... up to the university level. The first 12 years (Elementary or primary if you will, and High School or secondary) are provided by the taxes usually based on property values. In AZ I get an itemized tax bill (just got it too and it went up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) )that says which school districts I helped pay for and how much went to each. There are other areas that share my taxes but this is the main contributor to the free education. After secondary, or High School, further education is an option. This is the level of education I was refering to as far as the "slackers" I mentioned were concerned.
If the student meets the admissions criteria (ie. grades) they can be admitted. payment for that education can be made using loans, scholarships, grants, savings or a job. Not much different than what you were talking about. Sure there are criteria to maintain standing in the universities. Diploma's past High School will not be granted on the basis of seat time. There is currently a movement in US education circles to now require an exam proving you learned what you were supposed to learn in High School in order to get a real diploma. Those that fail will not get the diploma but a certificate of attendance. Basically a paper saying they occupied a chair for 4 years. This gives employers a better idea of the quality of worker they might be hiring. It also tells universities and colleges that this person didn't cut it in school. Cruel? Maybe, but then there are avenues available to correct this issue when the "student" decides to exert themselves and finish what they should have done in the first place.
Does this make what I posted earlier more understandable to you. We might be closer than what we originally thought.
Mav
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First of all - this topic is getting very long ain't it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I can't play AH anymore because my brother has taken his computer back to uni. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Probably a good thing - I was playing it too much anyway. So I'm using an old laptop with a really, really crappy modem - these long topics just take ages to load up. I think that after 60 posts to a topic, I'll stop adding to it to save me the loading time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Right, first things first. AK - I've got no idea how much a packet of studmuffins costs (using the British definition of 'studmuffin' here, before you ask (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). I started smoking at 13 and finished at 15, none too impressed with it. Filthy habit. Besides, by then I had discovered alcohol.
As for income tax vs fuel tax. My point was that income tax at least takes into account circumstance, whereas fuel tax is indescriminate; a community nurse with a Mini pays the same as an industry fat cat and his huge Jaguar. Also, I've started to change my mind about fuel tax in this country, after looking at how things are done on the continent - I don't really want ot go into it here, this topic is long enough as it is!
"Are you saying all your Universities are as good as Oxford or Cambridge? Thus ALL your potential students have a "right" to a free education of Oxford or Cambridge quality?"
Not in the slightest. What I am saying is that they have the right to an education at Oxbridge, if they meet the criteria of entry, regardless of background. In terms of the small amount of tuition you pay for, this is the same regardless of which university you study at; this is true even though the cost to the government of studying at Cambridge is higher than, say, Oxford Brookes (a poor university that is not part of Oxford University itself).
As for the quality of UK universities - some are generally better than others. But some departments within a particular institution are also better than others - for instance the Physics Department at the University of Durham, where I studied, got the highest possible rating in a recent assessment. In fact, on a par with Oxbridge (if not better, I can't remember exactly).
Mav - I took it you meant that people qualify regardless of how well they do at a particular course. I see what you mean now - I thought it sounded a bit unfair to give the 'slackers' the same qualification as the hard-working pupils! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Not in the slightest. What I am saying is that they have the right to an education at Oxbridge, if they meet the criteria of entry, regardless of background. In terms of the small amount of tuition you pay for, this is the same regardless of which university you study at; this is true even though the cost to the government of studying at Cambridge is higher than, say, Oxford Brookes (a poor university that is not part of Oxford University itself).
And how is this different from Harvard, Stanford or Princeton? Anyone can get admittance with good enough grades. Anyone can get a loan to go based solely on the worth of a degree from these universities. That person then repays the institution for the service they have provided him.
There really isn't much of a difference between our prestigious universities... so you may want to steer clear of that argument. At the lower end, however, there is a difference. Do some research and see what you can find out there.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
And how is this different from Harvard, Stanford or Princeton?
There really isn't much of a difference between our prestigious universities... so you may want to steer clear of that argument.
Do some research and see what you can find out there.
AKDejaVu
Point 1) No idea; wasn't aware that I was saying there was any difference - I was just responding to what someone else thought I meant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you do pay more to go the more prestigious uni's, right? I was just pointing out that isn't the case here. No judgement was implied.
Point 2) Again, I wasn't aware that I was saying there was a difference between the institutions you name. As I have said before, I couldn't possibly know - I've not been through any of the institutions or know anybody who has.
Regarding the costs of going to different types of uni. - I asked you guys if my assumptions were right.
Point 3) To be honest, I don't think I'm interested enough in the subject to warrant more research. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It's been interesting though, guys, to hear how its done over there - told me alot I didn't know, so thanks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-23-2000).]
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you do pay more to go the more prestigious uni's, right?
You are wrong. I've told you that in previous posts.
Many universities are more expensive than the "prestigious" ones. They aren't the cheapest, but they are beat out quite regularly. Basically, they cost about what any non-junior colleges costs. I doubt there is much difference between 4-8 years at University of Portland an Harvard. Maybe UoP is a tad bit more expensive.
AKDejaVu