Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: tikky on February 05, 2006, 01:21:28 AM
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our new spit 5 is completely underpowered now lol!. pls double the cannon ammo and make the engine a bit more powerful
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... and name it spit9 while you're at it.
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Yea and change the yaks they are totally overmodelled, while at it.
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i want my old spit5 back too! :(
i miss my baby :cry
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Spit dweebs! Learn to fly a real virtual air-o-plane:mad:
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Spit dweebs! Learn to fly a real virtual air-o-plane:mad:
NO...They Suck..... :t
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Originally posted by tikky
our new spit 5 is completely underpowered now lol!. pls double the cannon ammo and make the engine a bit more powerful
Lol. Been flying the Spit5 frequently this past week in AvA. It isn't the monster of yesteryear, but it's really quite a handy little airplane.
- Oldman (especially if you're used to flying P40s and 202s)
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Oy. Do we REALLY need to have the Spits more uber than they already are? :p
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Originally posted by bozon
... and name it spit9 while you're at it.
your funny:D
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Originally posted by tikky
our new spit 5 is completely underpowered now lol!. pls double the cannon ammo and make the engine a bit more powerful
Umm....no.
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So we can see more dweebfires then we already do?
50% of the planes I see are some model of a dweebfire and the other 25% are lgay7s.
Before the dweebfire 5 was remodeled I woul see people bring them up to 18k and BnZ you to death until they got slow then they would turn with you. Now its the dweebfire 16s that I see up at 18k just Bnzing you to death.
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Well, i ran into many N1Ks tonight. But if it was a Spitty, 9 out of 10 were a 16. I miss the 5, always a good fight that one.
BTW, i dont think the Spit5 is undermodelled now. Speed and gun power isnt everything ;).
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Originally posted by tikky
our new spit 5 is completely underpowered now lol!. pls double the cannon ammo and make the engine a bit more powerful
(http://webpages.milwpc.com/dwpetrie/whiner.gif)
ack-ack
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our new spit 5 is completely underpowered now lol!. pls double the cannon ammo and make the engine a bit more powerful
Tikky are you even remotely interested in historical realism?
the thing that kinda rocks my boat is the spit 5 has been soposedly over powered for soo long and its caused alot of wines that were justified. Seeing such a radical turn in its flight model makes me wonder what other planes are flying too well or too badly, tho when it comes down to it HTC has a wide range of numbers to choose from since planes were not exactly consistent in their performance due to weathering, manufacturing, upkeep ectra. Which can be a good thing when it comes to making game play decisions. If we had dummed down the La7 a bit im sure it would level the playing feild a little, or at least cause less whines, as long as it was within the performance range that historical numbers produce, (on the bottom end!)
It would be interesting to see some new flight models for CT, it has been said already that the planes will get upgrades and such, (ill also be interested to see how this is rationalized) so where will the planes start out? will they be within factory efficancy levels for the default and you build it up from there, aka we get 450 mph p51s running around after a few booster tweaks or something, or will the planes start out sub par factory number wise and as you progress and get promoted you get better mechanics who get you the best parts from the scrap pile.
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Just to clarify, the Spit V was not modeled wrong, it was running +16 boost, which it did use at the later stages of its use. The problem was, with the way it was the 16+ Spit V was a later version than the Spit IX we had. With the addition of the VIII and XVI it allowed the V to be redone as a '41-'42 12+ boost Vb and the IX redone as a '42-'43 which makes much more sense.
So, the 16+ boosted Vc was not "wrong" it was just not the most appropriate version of the V to do cronologically.
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Are the in game spits labeled as spit Vb now or just Spit V?, it would clear up alot of things if the labels were more concise to keep things from getting too generic.
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Originally posted by eilif
Are the in game spits labeled as spit Vb now or just Spit V?, it would clear up alot of things if the labels were more concise to keep things from getting too generic.
Spitfire Mk. V in AH is just labeled.... Spitfire Mk. V
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Originally posted by eilif
Tikky are you even remotely interested in historical realism?
Probably not.:aok
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Grits, with either +16 or +12 boost, the spitV is still a UFO king (lol). Let's just say this is "more" realistic, and that maybe the spit16 is challenging the +16 "V" for the Ufo King crown title.
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This comes as a surprise, Krusty? I've stated it before, and I'll state it again. The Spit V was a monster in AH1, and the Spit V with +12 boost is identical to the Spit V from AH1 except for the ammo load. Thus even the revised AH2 Spit V is a monster. The only thing that really limits its use is the low ammo load rather than the lower boost.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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What Lev said.
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I can see a difference in performance in spit5. I would always TnB with spitVs in my P38L. Whenever I came across someone that knew somewhat of what they were doing they would start out turning me, so I would try to use the P38's climb to my advantage. Confound spitV was able to hang on its nose and spray some of those cannon rounds til it hit me.
Now spitV still has a tighter turning radius, but I don't have as much trouble climbing out of their reach (and the lower ammo loading in spitV cut down on the lucky spray and pray shots, except furball :p).
Spit16 is a monster though. If I try making a pass on something; I come from say 8k, dive to 3k and start climbing up. When I look behind me a spit16 that was originally at 4k dove down after me and is able to follow me up to 6-7k (but in MA when they are spraying, it's rare to make it much higher than the point the spit16 stalls out)
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Or like I've seen, Spit XVIs I've had a good alt and airspeed advantage against courtesy of a dive (me at 450-500mph, Spit at 300ish) shooting up my six like someone strapped a couple booster rockets on the back while I've been CLIMBING at over 400mph.
Seems to me all the Spits (excepting maybe the Seafire, I've noticed what appears to be a significant difference in performance when fighting them, and they're the only Spit I seem to shoot down regularly over the 2+ tours I've been here) can jump about 100 mph airspeed at any AoA just by willing it.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Or like I've seen, Spit XVIs I've had a good alt and airspeed advantage against courtesy of a dive (me at 450-500mph, Spit at 300ish) shooting up my six like someone strapped a couple booster rockets on the back while I've been CLIMBING at over 400mph.
Seems to me all the Spits (excepting maybe the Seafire, I've noticed what appears to be a significant difference in performance when fighting them, and they're the only Spit I seem to shoot down regularly over the 2+ tours I've been here) can jump about 100 mph airspeed at any AoA just by willing it.
You also say....
Have I mentioned I HATE Spitfires?
So I'm flying in the MA, single Spit V with me and another guy tangling with him. Spit is in a shallow climb on a course that has him passing across my guns (not quite 90-degrees of deflection but fairly close). I'm close enough I can be pretty sure of a hit, so I time the shot and squeeze the trigger.
At the EXACT same moment I fire, the Spit STOPS, and I mean he LITERALLY stops, and pulls into a full vertical climb--not jinks, or rolls, or dips, or pops up over my shot but LITERALLY shoots into a total vertical climb--RIGHT as my tracers pass through where he should've been.
I HATE Spitfires!
and then youu nsay this...
quote:Originally posted by Saxman
tracers an option, anyway? I can't remember hearing any accounts of pilots IRL flying without them.
............................. ............................. ............................. ................
( Hit the books some more... it did happen.
The amazing thing is when they did it in WWII the amount of kills rose dramtically, the same result within AH. .......
Delirium
475th "Satan's Angels"
Nose Art )............
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Then you post this.....
"Last night in the MA I was in my 1-Hog at 10k heading towards a bogey ib on one of our bases. I'm slightly above him and in a shallow dive to pick up airspeed (~400+ mph). I ID'ed the conn as a Spit 16 so I pull up in a zoom climb to stay above him planning to reverse and dive on him, (I HATE trying to fight co-alt with those things) and as soon as I pass him on the merge I look back and he's climbing RIGHT ON MY SIX and CLOSING. WTFH! A total 180 in the second it took me to switch views after the merge, and he didn't even lose ground!
I hate Spitfires. "
SAXMAN , The HTC crew has done it right, The Spits are correct ,
I used to hate trying to fight the spit's ....The I watched a couple of film's from the DA , and found out how and why the spits turn , then I asked Levi , and GrmRepr, to teach me how ......
"This is what I learned ....
Their's no magic to the spit's..... " also, that I just did not know squat " about turn fighting ....
I'm still an easy kill in a furball ...and I'm still trying to learn stuff,
But I have long since quit pissin&moaning and blaming the spit's, cause I get my butt handed to me on a plate ".....
Hajo's post (below) is "Righteous" ,
I wish it (or something just like it )would have come up on my clipboard everytime I entered entered the Training Arena ......
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quote:Originally posted by Hajo
OK Folks gonna say this one time. Maybe splain a few things for those of you who don't know.....or know and forget. IF you're in a faster plane then a spitfire and lose, there are only a few ways you can lose and both reasons are your fault.
1.) Your're in anything but a Zero and you try to outfight a spit in a turnfight.
2.) You're trapped on the deck slow.
Spits fall apart just like anything else in this game when hit buy bullits. Why would you want to turnfight a spit when you have a faster aircraft? Choice of combat is yours if coalt......set the target up and do what you have to! Use what advantages your aircraft has over the spits, and don't fight into the advantages of the spit. This of course goes for whatever aircraft you chose to fly. Really these are basic and rudimentary rules for smart combat. Easy to remember. When you get shot down not the other pilots fault in all instances it's yours! You enabled him to get you in his sights. Don't blame it on the spit, Chog or La7.....it's you.
By the way......I'm in favor of only perking the 262 and the 163 for obvious reasons. All other aircraft don't need perked imho. Any prop plane in this game can be beaten by another. Hos"? Avoid them. If not....well get another airplane you pay for them.
Beautifull! We need to sticky this! This is the essence of air combat, simulated and actual.
Zazen
..........Regards
CHECKERS ...
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Yes, the SpitV was a monster in AH1, but in AH2 it was the UFO king!
Now all I really worry about are those spit16s, and only when they're inside d600 and sitting on my 6, personally. That's why I say I think the crown is going to pass to the new spit breed. The +12 spitV is still capable, oh yes indeed. But it's a little easier to handle now.
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Originally posted by eilif
Are the in game spits labeled as spit Vb now or just Spit V?, it would clear up alot of things if the labels were more concise to keep things from getting too generic.
Jeez you guys need to do a bit of reading now and then :)
Spit V covers a lot of variant. I counted 39 different engine, wing, armament combinations last time I checked for just Spitfire V variants.
Be clear on something. The A, B, C designations for the Spitfire V had everything to do with wing types and nothing to do with engine/boost etc.
You could find a Spitfire LFVb in 1944 over the beaches that would be a 'monster' compared to the 1941 Spitfire Vb. In fact here's a photo of one of em from Spit historian Peter Arnold.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1139258299_5-dday02-001.jpg)
It looks the same outside of the multiple exhaust stacks, but it's not the same bird as the 1941 Spit Vb that AH now has.
During the discussion about the Spits the emphasis was on the most representative Spits that covered the wartime period. Myself and others suggested that the Spit V be more representative of the 1941 version as we had a 42-43 Spit IX to go with the 39-40 Spit I. We also suggested and thankfully got the 43-44 Spit LFVIII and the late 44-45 LFXVIe. Throw in the XIV we have and HTC covered the wartime Spits about as well as they could have.
And if you really want your old Spit V I'd suggest the Seafire II that AH has since it has the larger ammo load and about the same performance as that old Spit Vc. And since it's essentially a Navalized Spit Vc anyway......
You get the point :)
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The old Spit V and the Seafire are very close. I "think" the Seafire is a bit more sluggish, maybe it weights a bit more but that's the only difference I ever found and it is negligible.
Good thing is it's available at fields and on CVs.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
BTW, i dont think the Spit5 is undermodelled now. Speed and gun power isnt everything ;).
Heresy burn her at the stake!!!!!!!!!z :furious :O :furious
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Dont argue with corky about spits. He is the all knowing when it comes to them little annoying dweebfires. :aok
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Lets have 39 different variants of Spitfire V!:aok
... I still want my olde spit back lol!
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Originally posted by tikky
Lets have 39 different variants of Spitfire V!:aok
... I still want my olde spit back lol!
DITTO... I want the Old Spit 5 back also !:t
CHECKERS...
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Originally posted by Krusty
Grits, with either +16 or +12 boost, the spitV is still a UFO king (lol). Let's just say this is "more" realistic, and that maybe the spit16 is challenging the +16 "V" for the Ufo King crown title.
Krusty, you should have tried the AvA areana when it was 190A5 vs. spit V. I flew the 190A5 almost exclusively and it was a vastly superior plane - suprise suprise to all LW whiners. Unless ganged by 3 or more, the 190 could tangle with up to two spit V if not starting from a bad disadvantage and could disengage at will. It out climb them (the 12 boost spits), out run them and out roll them.
In the MA slow spits feed of the crums that La7s leave behind. 190s can't toy with them because an La7 or a P51 will show up and make you slow down to be eaten by the spits. Makes spit more dangerous that way then they really are. In AvA that doesn't happen since you face relatively homogenous opposition, not to mention less ganging due to short range icons.
Bozon
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A Spit's a spit..... Just up a Zeke and laugh when they try to turn. :lol
The only time I bother to up one is if I'm having real bad luck in anything else. Almost always garonteed a couple kills in a spit.... Easy mode...
:D
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Originally posted by bozon
Krusty, you should have tried the AvA areana when it was 190A5 vs. spit V. I flew the 190A5 almost exclusively and it was a vastly superior plane - suprise suprise to all LW whiners. Unless ganged by 3 or more, the 190 could tangle with up to two spit V if not starting from a bad disadvantage and could disengage at will. It out climb them (the 12 boost spits), out run them and out roll them.
I had the opposite experience. Bozon is correct that the A5 can disengage at will. The rest of the sentence should be, "which it often has to do." Given a choice, I'd much rather be in the Spit. My guess is that Bozon's successful encounters with multiple Spits speak to his very fine piloting skills, rather than to the quality of his ride.
- oldman
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No, actually I sucked and got killed for being over aggressive. Can't hit anything with LW 20mm. My point is that like in the more extreme case of the zeke, once spit5 catches up with you it is an uber plane, up until that point there's not much it can do. With the lower boost rating the A5 outclimb it and out run it, meaning, you can BnZ a spit 5 for a long long time if you have the patience, taking very little risk. Spit 5 is a plane without initiative unless it come with a nice E advantage and will be on the defence most of the time.
In the MA you don't need to be fast in a furball. You can feed of the scraps of the faster rides. Fast BnZ planes will not bother you long because a fast high fighter will arrive and engage them.
Reminds me of the days in AH1 where the N1k was called UFO. I used to like to to make them chase me all over the map keeping them just outside of gun range - frustrating them as a punishment for taking off in a N1k.
Bozon
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With the lower boost rating the A5 outclimb it and out run it, meaning, you can BnZ a spit 5 for a long long time if you have the patience, taking very little risk.
Not unless you start the engagement with a considerable amount of E advantage in the firstplace - which, unfortunately is the prime reason why 190 pilots will most likely to choose to be up higher than everyone else, be it AvA or MA alike.
At co-alt, there's simply nothing a A-5 can do with any kind of maneuvering that might be called 'aggressive'. Forget the vets or experten jabbering about how they force overshoots with rolls and scissors - in most cases they have a bad bad habit of forgetting the quality of pilots they face. If dancing around a baby seal who couldn't find his butt with both hands count as 'outmaneuvering', then I can do that too. However, against anyone with just the basics of air combat into his mind, and all 'maneuvering' is simply out of the question in a 190. The 190 is literally the worst maneuvering plane in the entire Fighter category. The plane simply cannot handle anything else except diving and rolling.
Outclimbing a Spit5 in a 190 is hardly worth anything in practical combat, since even if you can draw him into a climbing chase and have gained some amount of separation the 190 just cannot go into an extended rope-a-dope from climbing speed, as the plane will fail to respond and viciously stall out once the speed becomes low.
Whereas, the Spit5 can hang on a thread and lob Hizooka shells upto the very last moment. Even if a 190 miraculously succeeds in a rope-a-dope, and manages to tip over and nose down from the vertical without being shot, the odds are that the 190 needs so much speed to recover to start maneuvering again, that while the Spit stalls out, quickly recovers basic maneuverability at around 80~100mph, the 190 will be forced to 'fall from the sky' until the speed is regained around 200mph. The 190 will overshoot the Spit floating around below him, and then bam, end result: the Spit is still behind your tail. Any kind of premature attempt to correct the plane's position/aim will kick in the destabilization.
There is no such thing as 'maneuvering' in 190s. It was a long time ago, but I still remember Grunherz, a skillful 190 pilot himself, spitting out a frustrated remark; "there's nothing a 190A can do against a N1K at coalt".
What you can do, is just run. Keep running until out of visual range, climb up again, and then re-enter combat at a hgher alt. It's the only logical thing to do in 190s - and when people do it, they are ridiculed and laughed at as being a "timid Bore-n-Zoomer".
Frankly, against any plane that is faster than itself, and is able to catch up with it, 190s are just helpless.
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Fortunately for the 190s, though, that's a relatively small category.
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Saxman, we're also talking Antons here, not just Doras. Over half the planeset can catch a 190A.
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so true... (190)
Always keep in mind that almost every plane will out-turn you in sustained turns, and almost every plane will out-climb you in sustained climbs
looks like the only thing a 190 can sustain is a dive speed of more than 600
mph without breaking any parts lol.
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dive means NOTHING in AH because any plane can dive to any speed, that's the stupid part. There are NO dive limits in AH, where there were in real life. Planes in AH all dive the same, whereas planes in real life have drag and what not that make some planes slower in a dive than others.
None of this works right in AH, so dive capability is a non-factor.
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Originally posted by Krusty
dive means NOTHING in AH because any plane can dive to any speed, that's the stupid part. There are NO dive limits in AH, where there were in real life. Planes in AH all dive the same, whereas planes in real life have drag and what not that make some planes slower in a dive than others.
None of this works right in AH, so dive capability is a non-factor.
Comon now, try diving in a Ki84, SpitV, etc and then try to pull up.
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Originally posted by Krusty
dive means NOTHING in AH because any plane can dive to any speed, that's the stupid part. There are NO dive limits in AH, where there were in real life.
That is not at all true. Try to dive after a 262 who's going about 300mph sometime. If he has about 9000 feet under him, it doesn't matter if you dive from 11000 feet or 35000 feet... you will not catch him in a dive unless you're in another 262 or a 163.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by eilif
Are the in game spits labeled as spit Vb now or just Spit V?, it would clear up alot of things if the labels were more concise to keep things from getting too generic.
Current tags and actual versions -
Spit I - 1940 Mk Ia (Merlin II)
Spit V - 1941 F Vb (Merlin 46 - I believe, same as Seafire IIc)
Spit IX - 1942 F IXc (Merlin 61)
Spit VIII - 1943 LF VIIIc (Merlin 66)
Spit XIV - 1944 F XIVe (Griffon 65)
Spit XVI - 1944 LF XVIe (Merlin 266)
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Originally posted by Krusty
dive means NOTHING in AH because any plane can dive to any speed, that's the stupid part.
As usual you're wrong.
ack-ack
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PW3ND
:p
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Dedalos: You can dive anything to any speed. I dive the Ki84 a lot. Only problem is I lose rudder (Ye gods, WHY the rudder?!?!) if I go too fast. It can go much faster, I just back off because I want to be able to get kills (i.e. I need my rudder). The Spits have a G-related bug I think. They were shedding wings like MAD the day they came out. A little while later they "fixed" this, but I think there's still a bug. I think it's there on the new 109s as well (they don't lose the wings, but the bug is there). Best guess: massive G-spikes on both sets of planes when there really shouldn't be. I've only ripped wings off a spit16, and I wasn't even blacking out when I did. It was a high speed dive and I eased out of it gently as a lamb, then SNAP no more wings.
Levi: Okay, I admit I was thinking about prop planes only. I think the 262 dives better just because it's faster most of the time, and already at a high speed when it dives, to begin with. If you're same speed and same alt and do a dive test I wonder which would pull away, a La7, a p47, or a 262?
So let me correct myself by saying "For Prop Planes, diving means nothing"
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You're still wrong Krusty
Dive in a P38 and a P47
P38 starts buffeting around 400, dive flaps can reduce buffering. It is damn hard to get a P38 over 500 in a dive. P47 doesn't buffer until 500+
P47 Accelerates like crazy in a dive as well, P47 best bet on catching a 262 in a dive.
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Okay then I'm wrong, but many planes dive far too well, against historical testing and anecdotal evidence.
Zeros out dive p40s. Las outdive 109Gs. Hurricane seems a bit "generous" in its abilities as well. 190d or p51d, there's very little difference between the two. P51d vs P47D, very little difference.
It seems that only a few planes have arbitrary "buffet" points or "shed parts" points, compared to most planes I think of.
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Dive acceleration is not equal.
I have watched La-7s just run away from my Spitfire Mk XIV in a dive starting at 25,000ft.
I have easily out run P-51Ds and La-7s by diving the Mosquito.
I remember see a US document posted that compared the dive of the A6M2 and various American aircraft. The P-47 pulled away fastest. After a dive of something like 5000ft it had only pulled ahead by about 300 yards as I recall.
The way people talk here they expect their Fw190 to be 1000 yards ahead of a Spitfire in a like dive.
The dive performance was different, but not to the extreme that people seem to think.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Okay then I'm wrong, but many planes dive far too well, against historical testing and anecdotal evidence.
Zeros out dive p40s. Las outdive 109Gs. Hurricane seems a bit "generous" in its abilities as well. 190d or p51d, there's very little difference between the two. P51d vs P47D, very little difference.
Krusty
A6M zeros and 109Gs are "sprinters", of course they will out-dive the P-40s and Las in 0 to 250 mph. In a "marathon" the P-40 will beat the A6M and 109 will beat Las in syustained dive.
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There is nothing "sprinter"-like about the zero, ik3. It was never a good accelerator, a diver, a climber, or a runner. It was slow but highly manuverable. While it was good in some other areas, it was by no means a diving aircraft.
Karnak, I think you might have mis-read the report that stated that, or it wasn't clear. There have been posts of other reports (p47 vs fw190) where starting at 20,000 feet or something, the p47 was easily out-dived by a fw-190, the p47 only catching up to the fw at the 3,000 foot mark on the altimeter. That's a hefty advantage, if ya ask me.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I remember see a US document posted that compared the dive of the A6M2 and various American aircraft. The P-47 pulled away fastest. After a dive of something like 5000ft it had only pulled ahead by about 300 yards as I recall.
300 yards is all a pilot needed to be clear of guns range - or to close into gun range.
Bozon