Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Naso on September 15, 2000, 04:23:00 AM
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Derek Rocco Barnabei has been murdered tonight, probably for electoral reasons. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I dont want to dig if he was guilty or not, but the strange thinks happened to the evidences, before the DNA test, are'nt good for a reasonable doubt, and for change the death in life sentence, giving time to understand?
"Dead man walking", beautiful movie, it show in strong way the feelings to be in the "Dead man" shoes.
Killing the killer is'nt becoming killer yourself?
Somethink to think about.
Next time cut be you.
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(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/puke.gif)
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 09-15-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 09-15-2000).]
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Originally posted by Naso:
Killing the killer is'nt becoming killer yourself?
Naso, in English a word "killer" does not have a negative connotation. It's a perfectly neutral word.
I assume you did not use it correctly in your question rather then intentionally tried to play word tricks.
How about that version:
Killing a murderer isn't becoming a murderer yourself?
No, just a killer. What's wrong with that?
Murder is bad, killing is ... killing. Just an unpleasant act for a normal person. We kill pesky insects, germs, cattle, poultry and convicted criminals.
Murderers murder innocent people intentionally or through criminal neglect.
The Commandment says "Do not murder", not "Do not kill".
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 09-15-2000).]
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Originally posted by Maverick:
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm2/puke.gif)
Maverick,
I don't get you point, what makes you sick?
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Originally posted by Naso:
"Dead man walking", beautiful movie, it show in strong way the feelings to be in the "Dead man" shoes.
Naso, seen any good movies that really make you feel like you were in the victim's shoes?
Maybe you could get an usher to beat you unconscious while it was simultaneously happening on the screen.
Or seen one that maybe makes you feel like you were in the shoes of the parents of the victim?
Got any kids yourself yet?
I haven't read enough about both sides of the Barnabei case to comment.
But the "death penalty" itself doesn't bother me a bit.
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Death penalty=post natal abortion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The liberal mind can grasp that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by mietla:
Maverick,
I don't get you point, what makes you sick?
Your post does. It was drivel. The DNA test evidence CONFIRMED his guilt. Now this "person" will never hurt anyone. The world is a better place without him.
Mav
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Maverick,
That was not my post.
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Originally posted by mietla:
Maverick,
That was not my post.
You're right. My apologies. Apply all of the above to Naso's post. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
Mav
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OZ, I like that!
Is it original and can I use it too? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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No problme, Maverick. Incidentally I agree with your position.
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Miko, thanks for your correction, i did'nt knew this subtile difference, i am not so good in english, sorry.
Kill or murder, the difference is in the contest, right?
But i disagree deeply with YOUR version of the commandment, in greek in latin and in italian is: "do not kill".
Cut be interesting to dig the historical reasons has been translated this way. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Toad (fished a big one!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), i am plenty of compartecipation with the victim's point of view, and the relatives too, and for sure if i am personally involved in somethink bad as victim i will feel mad of hate and full of lust of revenge,
but,
we are talking of a state, and a state must be impersonal, cant work on emotions, and at the same time pretend to be coldblooded killing or murdering a man tied on a chair.
Impersonal judgement, rational, without any lust of revenge, this is the kind of treatment I expect from a state for me, and if i expect this for me i have to ask this for others (we are equal to the law, right?)
Mav, the DNA test were made AFTER the evidences disappear and reappear, you are so simple to believe the police leave the evidences untouched?
The police in this case dont check the alibi of the "friends" of Barnabei, the same people hiding in other states when the process goes (one is still in unknow place), and making partyes after the execution.
And for your stomach problems, better you see a doctor, cut be a bad disease (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Naso:
but, we are talking of a state, and a state must be impersonal, cant work on emotions, and at the same time pretend to be coldblooded killing or murdering a man tied on a chair.
Impersonal judgement, rational, without any lust of revenge, this is the kind of treatment I expect from a state for me, and if i expect this for me i have to ask this for others (we are equal to the law, right?)
First, let me say that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have no personal animosity against people that don't agree with me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I expect my Society, as represented by the State, to maintain and enforce the laws that have been implemented to protect individuals and groups. In short, the State should see to it that all citizens are afforded the rights and privileges that the Constitution affords.
Particularly, VICTIMS have rights just as criminals have rights. The victims and their relatives should be confident that Society will take the appropriate actions against the perpetrators of crimes.
I personally expect that after "due process" has been carried out, Society will deal with the criminals that deny Constitutional rights and privileges to other citizens.
In some cases this is a fine or imprisonment or even....death.
I have absolutely no problem with the death penalty itself. If a person is so callous as to deny life to another citizen, then let him/her suffer the same fate. "Post-Natal Abortion", "Cleaning the Algae out of the gene pool" or whatever you want to call it, seems exactly appropriate to me.
Electrocution, firing squad, lethal injection...whatever means the State uses to permanently remove such disgusting abberations from Society...are all acceptable to me.
When you commit a "capital" crime you have voluntarily forfeit your place in Society and on the "wheel of life". It is a personal choice to make, so those that make that choice should be willing to accept the consequences.
Every man is RESPONSIBLE for his actions. He should expect to be held ACCOUNTABLE for those actions by the Society in which he lives.
I think the mistake you make is that you have allowed this particular case to become an emotional issue for YOU.
I suspect that all the "normal" procedures were carried out by the State of Virginia. I have seen nothing anywhere that even begins to suggest that this was anything other than an impersonal and unemotional prosecution of a case by the State.
Do you have references that we all might read that show otherwise? Proof of your accusations, in other words?
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Originally posted by Naso:
Toad (fished a big one!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), i am plenty of compartecipation with the victim's point of view, and the relatives too, and for sure if i am personally involved in somethink bad as victim i will feel mad of hate and full of lust of revenge,
but,
we are talking of a state, and a state must be impersonal, cant work on emotions, and at the same time pretend to be coldblooded killing or murdering a man tied on a chair.
Impersonal judgement, rational, without any lust of revenge, this is the kind of treatment I expect from a state for me, and if i expect this for me i have to ask this for others (we are equal to the law, right?)
Mav, the DNA test were made AFTER the evidences disappear and reappear, you are so simple to believe the police leave the evidences untouched?
The police in this case dont check the alibi of the "friends" of Barnabei, the same people hiding in other states when the process goes (one is still in unknow place), and making partyes after the execution.
And for your stomach problems, better you see a doctor, cut be a bad disease (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Naso,
As a retired Police Officer, I think I know more about evidence than you have ever heard of. This "person" was tried by a jury of his peers. He was found guilty based on evidence and testimony irrespective of the DNA. The DNA test, requested by the prosecution, after the conviction merely confirmed the trial procedings. Are you seriously telling me the police faked the evidence after the trial? Where is your proof? What is the basis for the allegation? Perhaps this is a problem in your country and you assume it's the same elsewhere. You obviously have never seen the process of evidentiary cataloging and storage. Evidence lockers in a major city are simply HUGE and it does take a while to find an item if it was placed in the wrong bin. Another item is that the evidence is required to be maintained even after a trial to be available for the subsequent appeals. This means keeping it for an extended amount of time and holding it while holding evidence from other cases.
The execution WAS carried uot by a disinterested government party. It was not done by the victims family or friends. It was done without a "lust for revenge". You should ask for equal treatment from the government. You should expect to be executed for premeditated murder. That is the law of the land this "person" lived in. You should expect punishment after the evidence is put to the test in a trial. You should NOT expect to be allowed to live after UNLAWFULLY raping and ending the life of an innocent victim.
Your country may want to keep around murderers. I prefer we not warehouse them here.
Mav
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Uhh, I thought the commandment was:
"Thou shalt not kill"
not "Thou shalt not murder".
The death penalty is a discompassionate primative way of dealing with things.
If you take an eye for an eye, everyone's blind.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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Ditto
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Igloo:
If you take an eye for an eye, everyone's blind.
What if prosecuted is already blind ?
Then we uhmm.. aaa.. ...take his sunglasses?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Igloo:
The death penalty is a discompassionate primative way of dealing with things.
With an ABSOLUTELY PERFECT record when it comes to preventing recidivism!
Crude but effective, you might say.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If you guys want to have a sobfest over the execution of the sort of people that rape and kill, send me the bill for the kleenex tissues! I feel your pain!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Capital punsihment is barbaric - the law as I see it is meant to represent civilisation, to show that the great majority of people are better than the people who commit these horrific crimes, not sink to their level.
I can't comment on the US system, but looking at all the miscarriages of justice in this country since the capital punishment was abolished, that would have led to innocent people being killed, I'm glad we don't have it.
Perhaps you have more confidence in your judiciary than I do in mine. But I think there will always be innocent people convicted, and although the great majority of people killed using capital punishment are guilty, a single innocent death due to a civilised society's laws is one too many. That is why I will oppose any re-introduction of capital punishment in this country.
As for the reference to capital punishment being post-natal abortion - that depends on whether you think an embryo can be called a human life. But that's one can of worms I don't want to open.
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<Opens can of worms, just to peek in>
Ah, been there, done that. A debate won't change anyone's opinion.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
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Make sure you put the lid back on, StSanta! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I've had the capital punishment/abortion/euthanasia debates many, many times over the years. I don't want to repeat it.
And when you observe that type of discussion, its like watching a fundamentalist Christian trying to convert a fundamentalist Muslim. I've seen that also - guess what the outcome was?
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Oh, we've already had the lid off that one in the O-Club. I forget which topic, but somebody hi-jacked it. I'm not afraid of a little old topic in any event.
At some instant between the time a sperm drills the egg and the time the doctor sees a baby "crown", what has previously been an organism becomes a human being. Right?
I don't know when that is.
If either of you gents can tell me with 100% accuracy when that happens, I'd be glad to support abortion BEFORE that time.
After that, it would be MURDER, would it not?
Now I'll never be mistaken for a real religious guy, but I do believe in a "higher power". I also believe that we might be individually be called upon to explain how we spent our time to such a "power".
I just don't want to have to explain that I was wrong about when an organism becomes a human being.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
...and for Dowding (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I've tried to word this in a non-offensive manner at least 10 times now and spent the last two and a half hours.
Religon, death and all that stuff ain't worth getting into.
- Jig
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Well, I'm not offended!
I do have my _personal_ beliefs. You can rest assured, however, that I view them as "just mine".
Everyone else is free to think and do what they feel is right in these areas.
I'm also not afraid to discuss those beliefs, as you may have noticed before now.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'd better keep this 'can o' worms' closed but hey I'm hungry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I look at it in a slightly different way... If ya are executed it's over... no more pain, no more sorrow, no chance to redeem yourself. I believe that life-imprisonement is a harder sentence then death-row. If ya put a couple of consecutive life-sentences (to make sure they never get out) on a capital punishment... they'll suffer more cause they'll be sitting in that little cell for a very, very long time.
I believe knowing you'll be sitting in that little box the rest of your life, 22h out of 24 a day, having to ask everything, depending on the whim of the prisonkeepers, having absolutely no freedom is much worse then execution (I'd prefer it above life in prison).
But of course that will never happen for a couple of reasons.
1) The believe that execution will function as a detterend for wanna-be offenders.
2) The cost of prisons.
3) Public Opinion.
In belgium we've had the famous case of Marc Dutroux... (a pedophile who kept 4 kids in a little cell in his basement for 2 years... all 4 were repeatedly abused, two died of starvation, the 2 others were luckely saved). There were alot of outcries for capital punishment... I personaly want this guy to grow very old in prison knowing that he'll never get out!! (ps: it's total isolation cause the other inmates would slaughter him).
Bee
PS: There's ofcourse also the little thing called absolute certainty. Every system is flawed... there will always be innocent people slipping throught the mazes of the net. Even if it's 1 in a million, do you want the execution of an innocent man on your conscience (spelling)?
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 09-26-2000).]
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 09-26-2000).]
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Thats how I see it Jeng - the one innocent man out of thousands really does make capital punishment barbaric. Perhaps it would be acceptable if the law hadn't been found out to fallible so many times over the years, but until it is 100% accurate, I can't agree with capital punishment.
I don't know what happens when you die; I've thought about it alot, and I've come to the conclusion that people who say 'this happens, that happens' are just guessing, however firm in that belief they are. Each to their own, though.
As for abortion, there is definitely a grey area as to when the abortion is the taking of a life or the destruction of an organism. I tend to think, though, that this grey area has black and white on either side. At conception, you're in the white, but as time moves on you start to reach the grey area. I guess this must occur around when the foetus is developing, and the CNS is about to be created. I don't think abortion should carried out much after that, if at all. But before, I'm pro-choice (to use your american soundbite); for instance the 'morning after' pill - I don't think this is wrong.
And as for the part of the Christian anti-abortion lobby that shoots at doctors - I've got nothing but disdain for them.
V. funny Toad. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-27-2000).]