Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on February 07, 2006, 08:21:51 PM
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What would cause an older refrigerator to pop a junction box breaker (not the breaker for that row of outlets in the main box but the red button in the outlet itself)
The fridge isn't THAT old, maybe under 10 years. I plugged my 31 gallon compressor into the same outlet and it works fine. THe fridge causes the the box to trip.
:(
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
What would cause an older refrigerator to pop a junction box breaker (not the breaker for that row of outlets in the main box but the red button in the outlet itself)
The fridge isn't THAT old, maybe under 10 years. I plugged my 31 gallon compressor into the same outlet and it works fine. THe fridge causes the the box to trip.
:(
Using all my extensive mechanical and electrical knowledge, I would venture to guess - it's broken.
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Originally posted by Dago
Using all my extensive mechanical and electrical knowledge, I would venture to guess - it's broken.
DAGO you da man.....don't let anyone else tell you differently. I would have NEVER thought of that.
Seriously.
Anyone
Beuler?
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It's a ground fault problem, it means all the juce coming out through the hot wire is not being returned through the netural wire, making it a shock hazzard. Check for bad insulation on all the internal wiring.
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My first guess is your fridge compressor is broken or overloading. If it runs for a short while than pops, make sure the coil is clean. A tip off would be a louder than normal thump when shutting off. Probably not that, but easy to check.
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The compressor could be dirty, causing it to need more power to turn. Could also be that the coil has a short...A bad ground wouldnt just cause a trip, it means it would be a shock hazard. BTW, the juice comes from the neutral and is pulled by the hot wire. bad ground means there is not enough power to supply it.
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Originally posted by Seraphim
The compressor could be dirty, causing it to need more power to turn. Could also be that the coil has a short...A bad ground wouldnt just cause a trip, it means it would be a shock hazard. BTW, the juice comes from the neutral and is pulled by the hot wire. bad ground means there is not enough power to supply it.
You don't understand this is not a breaker that trips when overloaded, it's a ground fault interupter that only trips to prevent shock hazzards.
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Don't know that much except you should be standing barefoot in shallow water when doing electrical work. :)
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THe only thing worse than a man's beer fridge not working is when the wife has the remote control. :(
Regarding electricity, the only thing I know about electricity is how to get the shorts outta the crack of my butt.
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Originally posted by zmeg
You don't understand this is not a breaker that trips when overloaded, it's a ground fault interupter that only trips to prevent shock hazzards.
Are you saying that the ground fault circuit interrupter (the little red button on the duplex outlet being the reset button of a ground fault circuit interruptor) has interrupted the circuit because of a ground fault?
How can this be? I think it must be an overload. The only way to fix it is to get a new 400 amp service.
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If it is a red button on the outlet itself it is a ground fault problem. Can be caused by a few things. The problem lies somewhere in the fridge. You getting any moisture coming off of the firdge at all?
At any rate move the beer to a cooler location immediately.
RTR
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THE BEER IS SAFE
I REPEAT THE BEER IS SAFE
ok
Yes this is the ground fault thingy....the red button on the outlet. Just some more backround. I just got this fridge and hooked it up in my Garage. The wiring in there is pretty solid because all my tools work. The fridge ran well and cold for about 30 minutes then tripped the red button. I've taken my compressor and blew out all the debris from the bottom of the fridge but that didn't fix.
I've never worked on a fridge before so I'm kind of at a loss as where to start.
RTR as soon as I plug the cord in it trips. The fridge was blowin nice and cold for 30 min to an hour before this happend.
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what zmeg has repeatedly said. the ground fault is tripping because you have a short somewhere in the fridges wiring. if the unit is running for 30 minutes then tripping the GF you have partially diagnosed the problem. see if it trips when the compressor fires up if it does there's your culprit.
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as zmeg and storch said the outlet button is the GFI not a load breaker.
it trips when current on your neutral wire doesn't equal the current on your hot wire. some or all of your current is finding another source to ground(through your ground wire, contact with another source or a person touching the fridge).
check for wet wires or components (is the drip tray empty?).
also a wire could be pinched or rubbing hard on the frame. vibration could then allow it to short. check all the connections and wire routing that you can access easily. make sure they have a free path and are not stretched tight.
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It's doing it now every time I plug it in. Considering the fridge was recently moved, I think I'll check all the wiring first. Thanks guys.
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Get a long, heavy extension cord and plug it into a GFCI somewhere else in your house, making sure you are on a different circuit. If it pops, it is your icebox: if it doesn't, it's the garage circuit.
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Tell your wife to turn off the curling iron, a lot of times your garage and bathroom are wired on the same gfi circut.
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Is it sitting on a concrete floor ?
If so, try putting it on a pallet or something. It won't fix the short but should stop the gfi from tripping
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Now you have an excuse to make a refrigerator compressor gun.
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wile not it's primary purpose, a GFI will also trip from a overloaded circuit.
i know this from hanging 10,000 xmas lights on my nieces house.(big house)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
What would cause an older refrigerator to pop a junction box breaker (not the breaker for that row of outlets in the main box but the red button in the outlet itself)
The fridge isn't THAT old, maybe under 10 years. I plugged my 31 gallon compressor into the same outlet and it works fine. THe fridge causes the the box to trip.
:(
1. It is a ground fault circuit interruptor, not a circuit breaker.
2. Refrigerator circuits are NEVER installed with GFCIs under the National Electric Code, because the motor in the compressor allows leakage current to pop a GFCI. That is what you are experiencing now. I have no idea why it worked for half an hour.
3. You need to install a separate circuit in the area for the refrigerator. That is the only legal and safe fix. The code allows one circuit in a garage for up to two appliances that is not protected by a GFCI.
Regards,
shubie,
actual real paid electrical engineer
(no charge for this service)
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Originally posted by rshubert
1. It is a ground fault circuit interruptor, not a circuit breaker.
2. Refrigerator circuits are NEVER installed with GFCIs under the National Electric Code, because the motor in the compressor allows leakage current to pop a GFCI. That is what you are experiencing now. I have no idea why it worked for half an hour.
3. You need to install a separate circuit in the area for the refrigerator. That is the only legal and safe fix. The code allows one circuit in a garage for up to two appliances that is not protected by a GFCI.
Regards,
shubie,
actual real paid electrical engineer
(no charge for this service)
thanks for posting that
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Originally posted by rshubert
1. It is a ground fault circuit interruptor, not a circuit breaker.
2. Refrigerator circuits are NEVER installed with GFCIs under the National Electric Code, because the motor in the compressor allows leakage current to pop a GFCI. That is what you are experiencing now. I have no idea why it worked for half an hour.
3. You need to install a separate circuit in the area for the refrigerator. That is the only legal and safe fix. The code allows one circuit in a garage for up to two appliances that is not protected by a GFCI.
Regards,
shubie,
actual real paid electrical engineer
(no charge for this service)
i'm running two spare fridges in the garage off of one GFI, no problems
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Originally posted by Flit
Is it sitting on a concrete floor ?
If so, try putting it on a pallet or something. It won't fix the short but should stop the gfi from tripping
That might be an easy fix....I'll try that.
OK I have to admit I am your typical ignorant consumer. I can tell you how a transistor works but am dumb when it comes to AC and house wiring.
There's a box/outlet further down closer to the breaker box. I'll try that one and try sitting it on some wood.
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I'd go with the advice of the electrical engineer and plug it into a non-GFCI outlet. (or make the outlet you have now into a non-GFCI)
a new outlet is about $.59
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I'd say support your local economy by buying a new (made in USA) fridge, and plugging it into the same socket. If it also pops the fault button, hire a local self-employed electrician to "fix it". No matter what line of BS he gives you, just shake your head sadly and agree to pay $500 or more to run a new line from the garage breaker panel to your kitchen. And then hire an interior finishing contractor to repair the wall after the electrician poked a few holes in it while putting in the new circuit.
Then pat yourself on the back for supporting the US economy in a way that's waaaay more socially responsible than forking over the same amount of money for that foreign manufacturered plasma TV you could have bought instead.
:)
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[Builder here]
I'd hire shubie, he get's it.
GFCIs wear if they trip alot. It's not uncommon for them to just fail after being tripped multiple times. I typically replace my garage outlets after 3 years of being tripped when the rains make my Christmas Lights short out.
Shouldn't be one for your fridge. Those are supposed to be for your counter space appliances near a sink. You know, so you don't "accidently" slip the toaster in the sink while the wife ack is washing dishes.
Although not a breaker so to speak, they can trip with the surge of power a fridge can show while the compressor starts. Usually not amped up to handle a load like a compressor starting while something else is on that circuit.
Posting here for advice lends itself to a very important suggestion, hire an electrician to check the Outlet and the Fridge. Then have the outlet replaced with one that meets the needs of the use. Is it Grounded? Do you Have that green wire (that is actually there for a reason) Actually attached to the plate mounting screw? Is that screw Plastic?? Is it Metal and if so screwed into a Plastic Box? Oh the many ways this can go badly for you ;)
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Fridge may need its own seperate breaker
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It's weird. All by itself it doesn't even trip anymore nore does the fridge compressor or fan turn on. Yet in the same outlet I can still use all my tools and compressor.
I planned on making a kegorator out of this fridge in the near future. :(
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Your place is probably built on an Indian burial ground. Our ancestors like to cause confusion.
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submerge it in water, that should do the trick pooslinger
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Originally posted by zmeg
It's a ground fault problem, it means all the juce coming out through the hot wire is not being returned through the netural wire, making it a shock hazzard. Check for bad insulation on all the internal wiring.
Yep sounds like the GFCI is tripping.
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"Hey, Marine! ..does the light stay on when you close the door? ...and are those jeep lug nuts still in the freezer?"
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Originally posted by Hangtime
"Hey, Marine! ..does the light stay on when you close the door? ...and are those jeep lug nuts still in the freezer?"
ha ha ha (only three Ha's though, that's all that comment rates) ;)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
ha ha ha (only three Ha's though, that's all that comment rates) ;)
:D
BTW.. check for heat at the outlet, check for heat on the cabling. If it ain't hot, and it's poppin a GFCI, see the interior wiring short advice above.
Bear in mind if it's poppin a breaker, uppin the fuse value just means it'll draw more current. Had an AC unit that demanded a high amp circuit.. and I paid twice the price of a replacemnt AC unit in electric bills. Same thing happened to my brother.. he upped the current carrying ability to a worn-out garage deep freezer, took a three month RV trip and came home to a 600.00 electrical bill.
If it's malfing, it's time to fix it or scrap it. Choose to keep it on line.... well; the old adage 'pay for good gear now, or pay twice as much later' comes to mind.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
:D
BTW.. check for heat at the outlet, check for heat on the cabling. If it ain't hot, and it's poppin a GFCI, see the interior wiring short advice above.
Bear in mind if it's poppin a breaker, uppin the fuse value just means it'll draw more current. Had an AC unit that demanded a high amp circuit.. and I paid twice the price of a replacemnt AC unit in electric bills. Same thing happened to my brother.. he upped the current carrying ability to a worn-out garage deep freezer, took a three month RV trip and came home to a 600.00 electrical bill.
If it's malfing, it's time to fix it or scrap it. Choose to keep it on line.... well; the old adage 'pay for good gear now, or pay twice as much later' comes to mind.
I think the fridge is just caput. It doesn't pop the GFCI nore the breaker. The outlets are fine because all my tools (compressor, saw, drill) work just fine on them and I know they draw alot of current.
I took apart the back and I Know that the compressor itself on the fridge has a thermal protector but I can't seem to find it. I paid $50 for this thing and I know the guy so I'm thinking of just asking for my money back because my time and effort are more important. (IE I'm planning a PCS move, house hunting trip, outprocessing, and buying a house)
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I bet the compressor locked up, there's possibly a burnt wire, or one of the starting components took a dump(relay, or capacitor) , especially if the unit doesn't work on any outlet. You Might have had a dead short, meaning that the hot leg and neutral were touching somewhere in the box, ,maybe because the insulation was no good, and now the insulation is melted so the power goes no where, which is why nothing happens when you turn it on. Could also be a bad thermostat. Compressors don't get dirty, condensers do. That's the coil on the outside of the box that rejects heat from the box.
Take it back, or find a friend that knows how to use a volt/ohm meter and troubleshoot the thing.
Don't mess with electricity, if you don't know what your doing, it's more dangerous than any MA horde.
Good luck man, warm beer sucks.:aok
The thermal overload is a little disk looking think, with two wires going into it, usually under the cap on the compressor. With the unit off, and unplugged, you can check for continuity.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I planned on making a kegorator out of this fridge in the near future. :(
Then you need a new bigger fridge with a dedicated power line from the power generating facility and several backup generators on site with enough fuel to run it for several years. and you will need to invite all of us in AH over for a BBQ once a month at least. make sure the kegorator is always full before the BBQ. ;)
post before, during, and after pics of kegorator when ya get it done.
always interesting to see projects other people have done.
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When a fridge compressor starts, especially an older one that may be getting iffy. You can get some serious start up amp draw. Certainly enough to pop a GFI.
Another thing, how long did that fridge sit after you moved it before you plugged it in? If it was laid down flat the oil can drain out of the compressor. Migrate out to the lines, causeing the compressor to have some major load on it.
Ussually if a fridge has been moved on its back give it a couple of hours standing back up before plugging it back in.
Last, unless your a contracter, I doubt you have a tool in your garage that takes half the start amps of that fridge. Air compressors, table saws, etc just don't need the same kind of Omphhhh to get them running.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Last, unless your a contracter, I doubt you have a tool in your garage that takes half the start amps of that fridge. Air compressors, table saws, etc just don't need the same kind of Omphhhh to get them running.
thats a very important point...
especiaflly for a GFCI. if the outlet is wired properly, and in good working order, the only thing that would trip is is a huge draw, without the proper return.
A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as small as 4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second.
basically all that juice makes the GFCI think the pwoer is going through something other than an electrical circut, and snapping.
if you need to learn more about GFCI... (http://home.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm)
also gunslinger... you really never should plug a refrigerator or freezer into a GFCI.
You should not plug a freezer or refrigerator into a GFCI protected receptacle. People often make this mistake, particularly in garages. The GFCI can trip in high humidity, during a thunderstorm, or from the surge of the motor starting.
hope that helps
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if it's the start-up draw that is popping it, just get a bigger start-up capacitor.
it'll give it the start-up power that it needs without drawing more from your line.
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Thanks for the help guys but I think the thing is caput.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Thanks for the help guys but I think the thing is caput.
well if you go get another fridge, it will just trip that GFCI again and again.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
well if you go get another fridge, it will just trip that GFCI again and again.
nope I'm moving soon. I'm not exactly sure about the wiring in the Garage either way. I live in military base housing that was built in the 40s. They've been remodled several times since then and the garages were eventually added as an afterthought. The outlets in there were installed by a tennent, NOT housing mait. They don't line up and none of them are at the same height.
I talked to the guy that sold it to me today and he said he'd give me my money back and just put the fridge on the curb for the trash pick up (one luxury of living on base, don't have to take it to the dump and pay the fees)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Thanks for the help guys but I think the thing is caput.
the big question is: where is all the beer at the moment?
(please include small diagram)
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(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/210_1139880358_beer.jpg)[/IMG]