Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: beet1e on February 08, 2006, 03:20:03 AM
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http://uk.news.yahoo.com/08022006/140/violent-crime-falls-booze-laws.html
Violent crime appears to have fallen since the relaxation of liquor licensing laws in England and Wales.Home Office figures out today are expected to show that serious violent crime dropped by 21% during the final three months of last year, compared to 2004. Many police forces reported a drop in the number of alcohol-related arrests over Christmas.
I haven't seen any analysis of this trend, so it's too early to judge.
In recent weeks, it has been suggested on this board that if the UK were to ban alcohol completely, there would be a large reduction in crime. I argued against this, based on the experiences of the American 18th Amendment (Prohibition) of 1920-1933, and a similar ban on alcohol in Finland at roughly the same time. In both cases, it was a disaster - crime went up not down, and alcohol related deaths went up not down, as people resorted to a clumsily made makeshift alcohol substitute.
Now we see that changing the law in the other direction is reducing crime, not increasing it. Now it just so happens that I was out on Friday night with a friend at my local pub, called the Duke of Wellington. We usually have 2-3 beers, not more, and a few games of cribbage if we feel like it. Closing time used to be 11pm, but as 11pm came around the bell was not rung and no-one called time. "Oh, they must have an extension", we both agreed, and ordered a couple more and carried on with the cribbage. 15-2, 15-4... From about 1130pm, folks started drifting away. Time was called at midnight, so we drank up and left.
The difference now is that whereas many folks would order extra drinks to beat closing time and then guzzle them down between 11pm and 1120pm (drinking up time), now there's no need for that. It was quite a peaceful evening in there, whereas in the old days there'd always be someone pissed by 10pm, in their quest to drink as much as they could before 11pm.
I always knew that banning alcohol completely would be a disaster, and that a relaxation of the laws (as in continental Europe) was the way to go. Looks like I was right. Again.
;):aok
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Bar cribbage? Sounds like a real rowdy place. And yeah, trying to separate people from their drugs can tend to make them disagreeable. Congrats on figuring that out all by yourself.
Allow me to also make a prediction. The next time you're out and about, bring along a cricket bat and use it to clobber the first person you see. I predict they won't like it.
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I always thought that it was odd that bars closed at 11 over there. When I was over in college, it was a big adjustment to my drinking routine. An American college kid doesn't even leave for the party until 9 or 10 pm, so you've gotta move the drinking schedule up quite a bit in England... usually we'd just go for a late dinner and stay until close.
Is there a historical reason for the 11pm last call, or is it just how it's always been? Most bars here (varying by state) don't close until at least 1 or 2, in Chicago 4 am. I haven't been to Vegas since turning 21, but I'd bet they serve very late, if not all night.
The one advantage of closing at 11 was they throw you out for your drunken stumble home while you were still a happy drunk... very few people had time to work up to puking, passing out, or belligerence.
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The USA learned this in 1933.
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Hi SOB! Nah, not rowdy. We were in the "old man's bar" in any case. All that was missing was pints of Mild...
Congrats on figuring that out all by yourself.
No, I had help - the millions of Americans who lived through Prohibition.Is there a historical reason for the 11pm last call, or is it just how it's always been? Most bars here (varying by state) don't close until at least 1 or 2, in Chicago 4 am. I haven't been to Vegas since turning 21, but I'd bet they serve very late, if not all night. - Tarmac
I don't have all the answers, but in the 1970s last call used to be 1030pm except Fri/Sat when it was 11pm. I went to plenty of parties back then - I lived with two Irish guys and two Irish girls! The parties began around midnight, after the last stragglers were back from the pub. I knew Chicago quite well - Irving Pk district about 4 blocks west of Pulaski - and the bars around there closed at 1pm - not that I made a habit of being there till then.
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Hitech et, all.
Why do we have to deal with this guy?
Beetle, you certainly love placing anything "American" below you.
It's quite sad.
What are you really envious of?
:confused:
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Originally posted by Yeager2
Hitech et, all.
Why do we have to deal with this guy?
Beetle, you certainly love placing anything "American" below you.
It's quite sad.
What are you really envious of?
:confused:
I don't know what you're talking about. I posted an article about crime trends in Britain c2005/06. I noted the events surrounding Prohibition 1920-33, and the results of a similar ban in Finland which led me to believe that banning alcohol would be a retrograde step. In what way does that make me "anti-American"? Do my remarks make me "anti-Finnish" as well?
As for "Why do we have to deal with this guy?", you don't. When you see my name as the thread starter, you can skip to the next thread. But you chose to read my thread. That was your choice.
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Originally posted by SOB
Bar cribbage? Sounds like a real rowdy place. And yeah, trying to separate people from their drugs can tend to make them disagreeable. Congrats on figuring that out all by yourself.
Allow me to also make a prediction. The next time you're out and about, bring along a cricket bat and use it to clobber the first person you see. I predict they won't like it.
:rofl
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I remember thinking that the reason for the pubs closing at 2300 was to allow working folks to get their arses home and get sleep in order to go to work the next day.
With the extended pub hours, has there been any indication that people are taking more sickies than they used to?
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Yes, more alcohol makes a calmer crowd, Beat-el learned that from millions of Americans(Here comes the part where he says "Ohhh! I got you! Hook in your mouth, neener neener! (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/icon22.gif) ).....however its killing more Brits than ever before:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4581530.stm
Big rise in liver cirrhosis cases
Cirrhosis is linked to heavy drinking
Excessive alcohol consumption is being blamed for a big rise in deaths from the liver disease cirrhosis in Britain.
While deaths from the disease are falling elsewhere, a Lancet study shows they have soared in England, Scotland and Wales since the 1950s.
Total recorded alcohol consumption in the UK is estimated to have doubled between 1960 and 2002.
The study was carried out by King's College London and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.
Experts said the UK Government had not done enough to try to tackle the problem.
New licensing laws came in at the end of last year allowing bars, pubs and clubs in England and Wales to serve alcohol around the clock.
The researchers calculated death rates for liver cirrhosis using data from the World Health Organization.
They found steady increases in death rates in Scotland, England and Wales during the 1970s.
This accelerated in the 1980s, and again from the nineties onwards.
Bucking the trend
In contrast, death rates for both men and women in other European countries declined by 20% to 30% from the early 1970s.
Between the periods 1987-1991, and 1997-2001, male deaths from cirrhosis in Scotland more than doubled, and in England and Wales they rose by over two-thirds.
For women, rates increased by a half in the same period.
Overall, liver cirrhosis death rates in Scotland are now about double that of the European comparison group.
While alcohol consumption has soared in the UK in recent years, other European countries - particularly the mainly wine-drinking countries of Southern Europe - have recorded a drop in consumption.
Researcher Dr David Leon said: "Current alcohol policies in Britain should be assessed by the extent to which they can successfully halt the adverse trends in liver cirrhosis mortality.
"The situation in Scotland warrants particular attention."
Priority needed
Also writing in The Lancet, Dr Robin Room, of Stockholm University, accused the UK government of failing to tackle the issue of excessive alcohol consumption.
Through the development of a more civilised approach to drinking and the tougher powers to tackle badly run premises, there should be a positive impact on health
Department of Health
'I was drinking too much'
He said: "The government has turned a determined blind eye to the problem and has failed to make the reduction of the population's alcohol intake a policy goal.
"Through the new alcohol licensing law and the official guidance on it, the national government has also done its best to tie the hands of local government on this issue."
Professor Ian Gilmore, chairman of the Royal College of Physician's Alcohol Committee and liver specialist at Liverpool University Hospital said it was not surprising that deaths from cirrhosis were rising sharply.
He said: "This is supported by day-to-day observation on the wards, where cirrhosis has become commonplace in men and women in their 20s and 30s.
"While we support many aspects of the government's alcohol strategy, the bottom line is that alcohol-related harm will continue to rise until we address the fundamental problem that we are drinking too much as a nation.
"The proven way to reverse that is to tackle the unpalatable issues of price and availability."
Government response
A Department of Health spokesperson said action was being taken to cut deaths from liver disease as set out in the Alcohol Harm Reduction Strategy.
This included a campaign to promote responsible drinking among young people, a clampdown on irresponsible promotion, and extra funding for services for people with alchohol problems.
"The research in the Lancet was undertaken before the new licensing laws came in. The new laws are just one part of the solution.
"We believe that, through the development of a more civilised approach to drinking and the tougher powers to tackle badly run premises, there should be a positive impact on health."
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I would not like to live in a place that was so depressing that the only way to socialize was to drink. That the only way to have fun was to drink...
Heck... they can't drive around cause the gas costs too much and the roads are bad and wet all the time... they can't go shooting cause... well..
they can't play outdoors or they will get moldy... they can't watch TV cause they have little tiny TV's and crappy stations...
You can eat out or drink out... how depressing.
lazs
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Maybe you let them get even drunker, they pass out in the bar and sleep it off there rather than staggering out and getting in trouble in the streets before passing out in a gutter?
Maybe if we just relaxed all the laws there would be less crime, seems reasonable, less laws to break, less crimes reported? Same stuff going on, just not illegal anymore, so less reported crime. Wow, that is just basic liberal logic. :D
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If they aren't home then the burglars don't have to beat em up or chase em out of the house. thus.... causing less crime.
lazs
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I'm rather surprised Beetle, though I'm sure some places they'll still want something to do in the early hours.
There's many places here that are open all night and even though Germany (or is it just Bavaria) have an intense drinking culture I don't ever see any trouble at all. My annual medical actually noted my liver is improving here lol! :)
@Yeager, I didn't note any anti-American post.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I would not like to live in a place that was so depressing that the only way to socialize was to drink. That the only way to have fun was to drink...
Heck... they can't drive around cause the gas costs too much and the roads are bad and wet all the time... they can't go shooting cause... well..
they can't play outdoors or they will get moldy... they can't watch TV cause they have little tiny TV's and crappy stations...
You can eat out or drink out... how depressing.
lazs
:lol
thats funny. very true except the tv comment, our tv is better than yours - it never ceases to amaze me the crappy quality of american recorded programmes.
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Its been talked about here (almost to the point of dead horsery) that bars should be open til 2am, not 1. This is to prevent house parties that could lead to potential health and hazard problems as well as underage drinking. In the past (before I came to Eastern Illinois U.) the bar entry age was 19 and from what I heard it wasn't rowdy, but they bumped it up to 21 and now everyone goes to house parties and causes problems.
Bars in Chicago are open til the early morning almost...
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Originally posted by Furball
:lol
thats funny. very true except the tv comment, our tv is better than yours - it never ceases to amaze me the crappy quality of american recorded programmes.
Lets see, you import a lot of American TV, we import very little British TV.
British comedy is mostly men dressing up in womens dresses, we find many things funny beyond that.
Half your shows are about gardening, half ours are bad sitcoms.
Over all, I think I prefer our TV.
dago
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british humor is odd to me... At times it is very funny and sharp and at others..... it would embarass soupy sales...
The real problem is that.... I find that I am laughing at different stuff than the brits even when we are watching the same program.
lazs
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Originally posted by Dago
Over all, I think I prefer our TV.
That's funny, so do we.
And the reason you import so little British TV is cos ya'all have got a habit of remaking stuff yourselves.
Archie Bunker? Based on Alf Garnett.
There's quite a few of these.....
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/209_1137109117_20029211530-0-swoop.gif)
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Originally posted by Dago
Lets see, you import a lot of American TV, we import very little British TV.
You would gain that impression, if you were the sort of cheapskate that watches only the standard network TV "13 channels of chit". The cap fits!!
I, on the other hand, watched only the Public Broadcasting channels, and these were stuffed full of British programmes, in addition to which there was my American hero, Dr. Carl Sagan. :cool:
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11pm closing was introduced during WWI (just like day light savings) to ensure all the workers were back making shells in the morning.
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Originally posted by Swoop
That's funny, so do we.
And the reason you import so little British TV is cos ya'all have got a habit of remaking stuff yourselves.
Archie Bunker? Based on Alf Garnett.
There's quite a few of these.....
Heh, NBC recently moved a couple of shows from their Tuesday night lineup to Thursday night. One of these shows is The Office (US remake), and in promoting this move, they called the shows the "most original shows on TV". Made me chuckle. :)
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Originally posted by beet1e
You would gain that impression, if you were the sort of cheapskate that watches only the standard network TV "13 channels of chit". The cap fits!!
I, on the other hand, watched only the Public Broadcasting channels, and these were stuffed full of British programmes, in addition to which there was my American hero, Dr. Carl Sagan. :cool:
Thirteen broadcast network channels? Where did you get that? Also, you can watch PBS whether you donate or not, so you can still be a cheapskate AND watch PBS.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I, on the other hand, watched only the Public Broadcasting channels, and these were stuffed full of British programmes, in addition to which there was my American hero, Dr. Carl Sagan. :cool:
Is that with the TV tax? :rofl
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Originally posted by SOB
Bar cribbage? Sounds like a real rowdy place. And yeah, trying to separate people from their drugs can tend to make them disagreeable. Congrats on figuring that out all by yourself.
Allow me to also make a prediction. The next time you're out and about, bring along a cricket bat and use it to clobber the first person you see. I predict they won't like it.
I just woke the wife up due to me laughing my a** off for a couple minutes.
Karaya
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Originally posted by beet1e
You would gain that impression, if you were the sort of cheapskate that watches only the standard network TV "13 channels of chit". The cap fits!!
Roger Waters should sue your arse for plagiarizing a lyric from "Nobody Home".
Karaya
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Originally posted by Replicant
I'm rather surprised Beetle, though I'm sure some places they'll still want something to do in the early hours.
There's many places here that are open all night and even though Germany (or is it just Bavaria) have an intense drinking culture I don't ever see any trouble at all. My annual medical actually noted my liver is improving here lol! :)
@Yeager, I didn't note any anti-American post.
the problem is hardly ever the liver but the hook that suspends it below the wobble shaft. if it rusts through and the liver falls you are screwed. to be safe never, ever drink water.
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Originally posted by SOB
Thirteen broadcast network channels? Where did you get that?
Masherbrum said it - it's a sort of cliché from a Pink Floyd song. RW obviously wasn't writing about England as we didn't get 13 channels (of anything) back then.
Pei - 11pm closing to get the WW1 workers back indeed. Not only that, but they watered the beer down too, from an average 10% strength to about 4%. I think Dago's dad had something to do with it. :D
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Beetle,
Isn't it simply because now that pubs are open later, one does not feel the need to drink a case of beer BEFORE going to the pub? I saw that a lot a few years ago.
Please forgive Dago, he's trying to enlighten us somehow... please make sure you use the sarcasm colour if you want to make sure your message gets accross
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99% of TV sucks, so its down to who has the least commercials.
Unless my new TV idea comes thru that replaces all commercials with nude girls or shaved icebears.. then the channels with the most adds wins.
The guys in my volcano are working on it now.. its all based on wireless fiberoptics and melted snow.
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The real reason for the reduction in crime is that with closing times staggered over a city/town all of the drunks are going home at different times, there are just less people to fight with.
Previously all clubs kicked out at 2.00 am, consequently hundreds of drunk young men milled around and ended up fighting (and lots of women).
wipass
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Originally posted by Nilsen
99% of TV sucks, so its down to who has the least commercials.
In America, that 99% is the commercials. :rofl
I don't think the UK lager louts will be drinking more. They'd run out of money! In the town where I live, it's business as usual, with the odd extension. But that was always possible anyway. Before 24/7 drinking, if a pub was hosting a darts match, they'd get an hour's extension if they notified the police.
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Originally posted by beet1e
if a pub was hosting a darts match, they'd get an hour's extension if they notified the police.
:lol The anticipation of such an event must be too much to take sometimes.
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jackal you cretinous redneck! It is called "civilization".
learn to embrace the sports allowed you by your lords like darts and cricket... give up your evil firearms and gas guzzling V8's.... embrace public TV with it's rolicking adventures and dusted of carl "the prophet" sagan episodes.
You got to admit that old carl was right about life as we know it being destroyed if the sadman had lit even half the oil fields in kuwait on fire in the first gulf war.... we were sure lucky the sadman hadn't mastered fire yet.
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A typical can of "Beetle's Best Red Herring".
The point of the old thread to which he alludes was that if banning guns to "save" a mere handful of "lives" was truly the point then it would follow that the Brits should ban alcohol to "save" tens of thousands of "lives".
Since Beet is quite unwilling to go along with banning anything that he PERSONALLY desires, he can't support banning alcohol to "save lives".
So it would seem that banning handguns isn't truly about "saving lives" at all, since there are a far greater number of lives waiting to be saved by banning alcohol. Lives lost to diseases like cirrhosis and lives lost to auto accidents involving alcohol as a causitive or contributive factor.
"Saving Lives" is really, really important UNLESS taking the necessary action would infringe on one of your own personal likes.
So have another helping of herring. I'll pass; he serves it all too often in my opinion.
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I bet if you got rid of all the laws you wouldn't have any crime!
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ROFL Toad! :rofl
Do you dispute the claims that violent crime dropped by ~20% since 24 hour drinking was introduced in the UK? That's all I said! I made no mention of the G-word. *YOU* were the one who said that crime could be reduced if alcohol were banned. *I* was the one who expressed doubts, as this "experiment" had already been tried in two other countries c1920, and failed. Still, you're always welcome in my threads - you know that! :D;)
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Again, the previous discussion was about saving lives. This is just another can of red herring, as I pointed out.
Ta-ta.
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An interesting and enlightening discussion.
Lunch time...ta
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Originally posted by Toad
Again, the previous discussion was about saving lives. This is just another can of red herring, as I pointed out.
No it's not. It's a statement from multiple police forces around the country: "Many police forces reported a drop in the number of alcohol-related arrests over Christmas." Why do you male-donkey-ume that one thread must be related to another?
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hmm... this is ridiculous.
lets just ban cars and save THOUSANDS of lives... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Furball
lets just ban cars and save THOUSANDS of lives... :rolleyes:
No, as MY life was saved when I was driven to a hospital - in a CAR! - by an American woman LOL! And because my lifestyle is dependent on cars, we cannot possibly countenance such a proposal. :p
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Originally posted by Furball
hmm... this is ridiculous.
lets just ban cars and save THOUSANDS of lives... :rolleyes:
No, that would result in underground shops that produce illegal cars and have unlicensed, untrained people using cars and causing death and destruction.
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Originally posted by beet1e
No, as MY life was saved when I was driven to a hospital - in a CAR! - by an American woman LOL! And because my lifestyle is dependent on cars, we cannot possibly countenance such a proposal. :p
You have a bicycle, don't you?
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No.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Why do you male-donkey-ume that one thread must be related to another?
Simply because it is. It is your modus operandi for fishing as well.
In recent weeks, it has been suggested on this board that if the UK were to ban alcohol completely, there would be a large reduction in crime. I argued against this,
[/b]
And, again, that isn't the hypothesis from that other thread; the hypothesis was that banning alcohol would save thousands more lives than banning handguns did in England.
This is just another red herring, with Beetle once again holding the pole, hook, line and sinker.
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Originally posted by Toad
Simply because it is. It is your modus operandi for fishing as well. And, again, that isn't the hypothesis from that other thread; the hypothesis was that banning alcohol would save thousands more lives than banning handguns did in England.
This is just another red herring, with Beetle once again holding the pole, hook, line and sinker.
There you go again - talking about "the other thread"! I made no mention of any particular thread. You male-donkey-umed which one it was, but it could have been this (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=170251) thread, in which Lazs states that 80% of homicides are alcohol related, in the US at least. That's as good as anything I've seen to suggest that "alcohol is a root cause of a great deal of crime". There are other threads in which people have blamed alcohol consumption in Britain for crime, as you well know. I could go and hunt for them, but... I can't be arsed.
May I pinch a couple of your maggotts to put on the end of my line? ;)
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The typical Beet inability to admit he's wrong when caught red handed.
Pffft.
You're naught but a simple troll anymore.
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I said "homicides" not crime.... While homicide is a crime.... it is a specific crime of the most serious nature.
admit it beet... you got caught. man up just a little.
I would like to see a couple of years data in any case.
lazs
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Originally posted by Toad
The typical Beet inability to admit he's wrong when caught red handed.
I'm not wrong here. But you are wrong in saying that I wouldn't admit to being wrong if I was. I admitted to being wrong, in big size=10 letters, here (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169931&pagenumber=2).
I said "homicides" not crime.... - lazs
I said "violent crime", and the Home Office categorises homicide as a violent crime.
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I commute on a bicycle.
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Originally posted by lazs2
jackal you cretinous redneck!
We`uns around these here parts will fess on up to bein akin to the redneck clan on occasion. But as far as that there "cretinous" stuff goes, I dunt never et me none of them thar fish in a shell. Too dang fur from da big pond and you done eready knowed that I taint nevar been much of a traveling type. Tryed that thar thing once but I reckon I didunt have enuff of that thar book larnin to get a grip becuming a downright expurt on them thar places just becausin I had been thar once like sum of them thar furners around heah claim to be. Told me one of them thar high falutant furner fellers one time that back when I still had some larnin about me that I drove one of them big ole semis for a while. That thar dang feller was sure edicated. He tryed not to act like us po old workin folk was not beneath him and halped splain it to me that deliverin vittles and spring tonics and things for them thar new fangled flyin amchines and the like was done by us po unedicated backwoods type. I tried to hunker down and figir what in tarnation one of them thar IT fellers were that them edicated folk seem to abide by, but I just twere`nt smart enuff to know what in thender them fellers did. When we`uns were knee knockers we ust to play tag, but dag nabbit I never did like bein IT. My dawg gawn ole thinker cant get the chikens in a row long enuff to be one of them usefull fellers who look at them tahr stone walls. Pretty helpfolk I reckon. Somebudy got to have enuff larnin to keep usin ole rednecks from bein a bother to them smart type fellers.
It is called "civilization".
That thar must be one of dem big cities in one of dem furner places like Oklahoma. Tain`t never been thar.
learn to embrace the sports allowed you by your lords like darts and cricket...
Now lookie here neighbor, the lord didn`t have nary a hand in that thar Dart contraption I bartered fur. It wus made by that Dodge feller. A feller across the holler did palaver with me an tolt me them thar law fellers who wast tryin to chase me down in the dang thing was a prayin to the lord that they wudn`t never see it again tho. Fur as I recollect it`s still in that thar crik I put it in. That thar were a few Sunday picnics and hog hollerins ago tho.
I hav to flat out admit to asocilizin with them crickets when I mosey down to the pond fur some perch. Cant say as whar I evar embraced the dang thangs tho. Got one down my bib overhalls unce , but nevar embraced the critter.
give up your evil firearms and gas guzzling V8's..
Now tarnation boy, how in da tarnation did ya find out about me shootin orn?
Them thar revenuers better not come sniffin and a huntin around these parts again. I taint a aimin to shoot me no livin , breathin sole unlessin he loligags around that thar thicket were I have my still.
Ya done whomped the spike on the hed bout them V8s. Once in a blue moon or at hog killin time we load Ma and Jr. up in the wagon and go inta town. I a usulee get me one of them V8s outa of them big ole frigadairs the store keeps hav. They sure dus give me the collic, but Iv learnt a little tech of sody will make it go away.
embrace public TV with it's rolicking adventures and dusted of carl "the prophet" sagan episodes.
Now dawg gonnit I seen me une of them picture show boxs in a catalog we`uns had in the outhouse unce. I aint embracing une of them just like them thar scratchy legged crickets ya was atalkin bout.
Onliest dang Sagan I know of in these parts is Bercy Sagan ont te other side of the thicket. He has that old scraggly rocked tater farm. He sure aint made much prophet and I spect iffin he did hed just drank it all up.
Now I havt ta fess up to prolly bein a bother to folks like this her furner feller we keep apesterin round here. He has all dem book sense us Po ole rednecks aint got and the feller sure has sum smarts. Why, I reckun this feller is might neart the brainiest human on this here planet. Leastwise as far as I know this furner guy is an xpurt on just about everythin. He`s a charitable sort tho and sur dunt mind tellin us po old merican rednecks whens we get them ole crazy idees in our heds.
I reckun he`s sa smart he figgered out how ta not becum a redneck. He`s alivin in une of them thar places that has all dat fogg. Keeps ta sun from ablisterin hiz neck I reckun.
He sure is atryin to straiten that Toad feller out, but I spect he wunt get thru to im with all them thar fancy words.