Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: FiLtH on February 08, 2006, 12:48:46 PM
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Even after the debacle of Mission#2, the planners in the 8th AF, out of neccessity, have planned a long range mission for its B17 squadrons. (B24s standing down due to losses suffered)
The brass has determined the U-Boat menace, based on the west coast of France a high priority. The town of Nantes, approximately 50 miles from Lorient ( home to a large U-Boat base), supplies much of the fuel to both Lorient and Brest U-Boat bases. The fuel refinery in Nantes sector 7-1-3 on your flight maps, is the target.
The bombers will be equipped with a new incendiary bomb, in an effort to cause maximum damage to the fuel systems at the target. Escort will be provided by P47 squadrons.
See the breifing and flight map for information. Good luck gentlemen..the navy is counting you.
(http://FilthsHangar.homestead.com/AH_Breifing_Mission_4.jpg)
(http://FilthsHangar.homestead.com/AH_mission4_map2.jpg)
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I notice you are staying well away from any of our airfields... :)
Nice to see you're throwing some variety into your targets. :aok
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Thanks FiLth, looks like fun, but I bowl on Wed nights :cry
maybe I'll be "sick" tonight :t
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Rgr that :)
The 8th AF will probably use the 9th and 10th(Thurs and Fri.) to regroup, and refit. (Due mainly to increasing wife-ack) Flak so thick she can walk on me!
Probably will slate Sat. the 11th for Mission 5.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Rgr that :)
The 8th AF will probably use the 9th and 10th(Thurs and Fri.) to regroup, and refit. (Due mainly to increasing wife-ack) Flak so thick she can walk on me!
Probably will slate Sat. the 11th for Mission 5.
FiLth, did you get my PM ?
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Yes fencer..actually I didnt know I had PMs..says 0 and I had 4 in there. Count me in..probably MGD too.
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Drop me an email with your email so I can copy you on the plan.
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And so that once you e-mail him your e-mail and he e-mails you the plans, you can return his e-mail with any feedback or questions.
Sorry, just had a 'Department of Redundancy Department' moment. :)
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Originally posted by Treize69
And so that once you e-mail him your e-mail and he e-mails you the plans, you can return his e-mail with any feedback or questions.
Sorry, just had a 'Department of Redundancy Department' moment. :)
don't interfere with ackllied mating rituals son, it just isn't done.
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so if the mission starts at 9, you'll be over target what around midnight? :)
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From wheels up it will take 1 hr to reach the IP.
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Remember, I want to see pictures with this AAR!
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AAR
MISSION #4 - Feb 8th
The Bombgroup left A56 with 6 flights of B17s. Eighteen bombers in all.
Our escort left A22 in fully gased P47s w/ DTs. The route to target was uneventful. The most trouble was maintaining formation,and debating whether the P47s would have enough fuel.
At feet wet I reported to the Luftwaffe we were on the way. Something happened to the DARBAR about 1/2 way there. We werent showing one at 25k. So I begin position reports. We were at the IP before being engaged by a few enemy fighters.
Our escort lead HUSKER reported they werent going to be able to RTB due to fuel. The combat had exhausted their reserves, even though they flew at minimum settings the whole way. They stayed with us until drop.
The B17s did a final calibration, and then it was bombs away. We had lost 1 B17 at this point. One of Stringers to a headon attack. They like him.
Then we dropped.
408 100lb incendiaries rained down on the refinery. Direct hit. 98% of the plant was destroyed. Excellent drop! We each had been assigned a certain path through the target for maximum coverage. It work splendidly!
HUSKER, and his wing mk31 on fumes dove down to finish it off. They got hits effectively finishing off the plant. Alas..that was the last we heard of them. One by one the remaining escort fell out of formation. We wished them luck and flew on alone..unescorted. They got us there, it was up to us to get home.
We chose our egress to take us over every axis field between us and England. They came at us. Over and over we were attacked. Over and over we repelled them. Not without cost. They slowly wittled us down. Depleting our ranks and ammo. SIRB got out in front after the drop, and was skinned alive. We heard his screams for help on the comm. Its a long drop from 25k.
He jumped in my plane as gunner. Then Stringer lost a plane. Then MGD and Teebox. Easyscor and I were in good shape. Suddenly as we neared the French coast and A73 the attacks became more intense. Teebox exploded in flight. He was gone in an instant.
After what seemed like an hour of this, almost out of ammo and mid channel, we were becoming over-whelmed. Stringer and Easyscor called out they were going to make for the deck, in hopes our luring the enemy down to save us.
Easyscor didnt make it. Somewhere, 10-15,000 ft below the clouds and out of sight, his last plane came apart.
After a few minutes MGD called "Lets makefor the base at 55!" We descended rapidly..wings groaning all the way down. Suddenly there in front..England! Mgd with 2 planes caught the attention of a FW190. It was Plink. A dreaded axis pilot. MGD disintergrated before our eyes. But SIRB and I had no time to mourn. I saw the field and made for it. Ispent my last 35 rounds on a 109. Now it was time to fly.
Bam! lost plane #1. Jumped into second plane. Blam...that was gone. With our last plane I banked steeply almost ripping the wings off, stalled slightly and banked into the runway hard. I sheered off my props on 3 and 4. We were down and rolling fast. Thankfully MGD and other had reupped in fighters at that moment and caught the enemy's attention. I rolled back onto the runway with just my port engines. And landed. SIRB was credited with 2 gunnery kills.
But suddenly out of the blue a radio transmission. It was Stringer, on 3 engines limping into A55. He had made it!
Out of the entire flight, only 2 B17s made it home. The 8th AF deemed it a costly success. The U-Boats of Lorient and Brest would be delayed from getting precious fuel for weeks. But what a cost it was.
Depicts total missions flown -!
Depicts kills - *
FiLtH - !!!! RTB 1 ship
MGD- !!!! KIA
Stringer- !!!! RTB 1 ship
SIRB- ! ** KIA (2 kills as gunner for FiLtH)
Teebox- ! KIA
Easyscor- ! KIA (Was lost breaking to deck to drag others down)
* - Depicts landed kills. There were many kills uncounted credited to bombers and the escort that went down. We were just too busy to keep track.
The escort performed beautifully, but just didnt have enough range for the job. It is believed up to 10 escort pilots became POW this evening.
They will be missed. As will the bomber crews that were lost.
The following received the Silver Star-
Easyscor -for his gallant action that saved the remaining B17 crews.
The following received the Airman's medal for gallant action against the enemy-
HUSKER- for leading his flight and performing his task with valor.
SIRB - For 2 confirmed enemy fighters shot down.
OVERVIEW-
It was a long mission. Too long for something outside of a true event. My hats off to all those involved, on both sides! Especially the escorts who didnt see alot of action before they went down. Future missions will be shorter, and with full awareness of limited range.
Thanks all who took part..to the Luftwaffe pilots who gave us a great mission..!
Oldman
KONG
Bruno
MAGIC
PLINK
and others I cant recall.
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Ok, if stringer was in B-17s, why did I get a "you shot down Stringer #1" message when I blew up a P-47 on your run in?? :huh :confused:
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FiLtH, thanks for setting things up, had a great time. First time since becoming a member that I played in an area other than MA.
Interresting look to see your two engines smoking, airspeed start to drop and the remaining group slowly pulls away. Then look to the six and see the little dots start to grow in size...... :eek:
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I got SIRB's last two B17's after he came off the initial target .. he got my oil
glided back to within a couple of miles of our airfield only to slide into something ditching
FiLtH for creating interest in the arena
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single popgun Bf109G6
climbed to 25k to be dumped to desktop
climbed to 25k and found a P47, matelot dead
found the B17s assist on teebox ( i was the one that slowed you down with a front right quarter attack that smoked your right engine on your right drone.
low on fuel observed a fight between white 13 and a P47 for a while. when it looked like white 13 was dominating went to look for additional trouble elsewhere.
as I'm scanning the sky I received multiple ck6 calls to find white 13s P47 wanted to change partners. I caused the P47 to overshoot and proceeded to hole the offender up for good measure. Imagine the nerve of the guy interrupting my beer break!!! followed him down to the deck losing no distance and at speeds exceeding 500mph IAS. closed and pinged him up a bunch more. crumpp arrived on the scene and picked up the fight for me so I could rtb fuel.
as I taxied in second kill message flashed propnut dead. as I was about to tower the assist for teebox flashed.
total for me was:
2 kills P47s 1 assist B17 and landed
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Man..when Teebox bought it..it was like watching a wounded deer getting hit by wolves. They stood off for awhile, but once they saw the separation between him and the formation, they pounced. Looked like a feeding frenzy.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
It was a long mission.
That it was, which had good and bad features. The bad ones are obvious - most of us, on both sides, spent a lot of time doing nothing but climbing and motoring around looking for something. Oldman got to bed way past his bed time.
The good ones outweighed the bad ones, so far as I'm concerned. This was probably the best reenactment of an 8th AF bombing mission that I've ever seen in AH. Poor ground controlling, fuel management issues, forming up, positioning for the attack, were all issues that plagued the LW, just as in real life. When the B-17s were escorted they did fine, when they were unescorted they didn't, just as in real life.
I don't think I'd enjoy doing this every night, but it was a lot of fun for this particular night. Thanks to all, but especially to Filth.
- oldman
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to Filth for organizing the raid and to the escorts for hanging in on a long mission.
And to the Luftwaffe (well, all but Storch anyway :) ) for coming up and engaging. Ok, to Storch as well.
That is weird how that happened White...are you sure you didn't get an assist on me, because I think Magic got the kills on 2 of my B17's.
As Oldman said, I don't think I'd do that mission every night, but it was a good change of pace for last night. We do fine with escorts, but once they leave it is a slaughter for the FW's and Me's. I ran out of tail ammo and my top turret was shot out early so I could only watch as Magic and Plink sat 200 off my six just picking off the pieces from my beautiful bomber :)
I will say watching the bombs walk across the refinery was pretty cool.
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My plane for the evening was the 109 G-6 -- three times in fact.
I believe I was one of the first or perhaps second to actually reach the IB raid, only to be pounced on by no less than 4 escorting P-47s. Due to my complete lack of experience at that kind of altitude, kept stalling at the slightest move of the stick. Outcome totally predictable -- so I tried to pull escorts away. Didn't get very far. Apologies to the pilot that sawed off my wing with one burst -- can't remember who it was.
Second sortie -- got close enough to bombers to take a few pings. Angling for attack, when last P-47 escort comes quickly from behind. Several check 6 calls, and I figure I will try to turn the escort away from the bombers. Mindful of earlier stall problems, I turn SLOWLY. Too slowly. "PropNut Shot you down."
Third sortie -- try to take 2 rockets. No peskie escorts. Reach bombers. line up for dive from target's 4 O'clock -- realize at last second angle is slightly off, try to correct and fire rockets at same time. Complete miss, dive past. Try to climb back up (dang altitude - more stall buzzing). Not nearly as much speed as I thought, end up nearly dead 6 of box. BANG. One of SIRB's confirmed kills.
8th AF 3, Brauno 0.:cry
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I upped a 190 from 74 just as the bomber formation was passing on their way south. I climbed to the southeast and put myself into a position to hit the bombers as the were leaving the target area. As I first got the bombers in sight I lined up, but found they had turned back to the west slightly. I then noticed what appeared to be the escort, and opted to parrallel the bombers course for a few minutes and wait for the escort to disperse. Once they had I started making headon passes. I managed to get about 6 head on passes in before hitting the coastline - by that time I'd killed one, and gotten an assist on 2 or 3, without taking any return fire. I made one last approach on a straggling box from the rear and got some good hits on one - my oil was hit in return and I rtbed.
I then switched to the allies to try and give some withdrawl cover - my Jug had just made it up to 25k when I crashed to the deskop. :furious
With regard to the length of the mission - this was fun, but obviously can't be an every night kind of thing.
With regard to the escort, the biggest flaw was that there wasn't enough, and what there was stuck to the bombers from what I could see. It seems like it might be a better idea to split the escort up into a few smaller groups.
It seems that the bombers can take care of themselves - at first. The interceptors keep gradually pecking away and finally during the rtb stage it all falls apart.
I think it would be worthwhile to try splitting up the escort. Get one group to cross the coast a few minutes ahead of the bombers, sweep the fields where opposition is expected to up from and just bounce anything they see - be aggressive. If someone had attacked me while I was still climbing up I likely wouldn't have ever made contact with the bombers, or at least not until they had already hit the channel.
The second group (ideally the largest group) would stick with the bombers and attack any fighters that came up. As they lost altitude they would leave the bombers and sweep enemy fighter fields on the way home, once again trying to hit any interceptors before they got up to altitude.
The third group would cross the coast outbound a few minutes behind the bombers, and try to rendevous with them as the second group was fading away. They would carry out the same role as the second group - attack any interceptors, drive them off and then sweep fields while rtbing.
By this time the first group should have rtbed, and then upped again to pick up the bombers over the channel, to prevent the last minute massacres we keep seeing.
This method wouldn't keep the bombers covered 100% of the time, but should keep more of the interceptors dodging and engaging the escorts. If you could cut down the number of 109/190s making it to the bomber formation, and then make sure there was some escort during the withdrawl that would probably result in a serious reduction in bomber losses.
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Originally posted by Stringer
That is weird how that happened White...are you sure you didn't get an assist on me, because I think Magic got the kills on 2 of my B17's.
Nah it was a P-47 that I got a good 15-20 minutes before I engaged the buffs.
Beats me, I'm just confused now.
Is there any way I can check and see the IDs of my last few kills?
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I upped same time as Storch and headed North scouting for bombers. Climbed to 25k and was just at the edge of the Channel when the dar bar appeared. 4 sectors behind me. AAAAAA!
My 109 had already sucked the drop tank dry and was 1/4 of the way through the main tank. I reversed my course and went into a shallow dive for speed, levelling back out at 21k. The bombers had already made their strike and were outbound when I made it to the target area. That refinery fire sure did look pretty from 25k. I couldnt see much they had missed. Bombers werent even in sight, slowly turned towards the North scanning for targets. Caught the barest glimmer of sunlight reflecting off metal and locked my course.
Filth, it may have looked like we pounced on TeeBox once he started to fall back, but truth is he was just the first target. He was smoking from Storch's pass, and at the rear of the formation. I was running on fumes and knew I had only one shot, so I engaged WEP and lined up from 800 yards out. Held the aim just above the wings and let those godolas sing! I was rewarded with several hits on the right wing and body of the lead plane. Shots from the defensive fire began hitting me, lost my oil cooler and then my engine. Not sure if I was hit or ran out of gas. By now I was at d400, I slewed the plane right and hit the one already smoking dead on. At that point part of my left wing separated from the plane and I began a slow spiral down to earth. TeeBox exploded moments later, giving Storch his assist (and me my only Kill).
Punched out, spent the night in some barn and hitched a ride back to the airfield in the morning.
Lots of fun. :)
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Originally posted by Sable
With regard to the escort, the biggest flaw was that there wasn't enough, and what there was stuck to the bombers from what I could see. It seems like it might be a better idea to split the escort up into a few smaller groups.
It seems that the bombers can take care of themselves - at first. The interceptors keep gradually pecking away and finally during the rtb stage it all falls apart.
Sable, If IRC from some books I have read, Escorts would meet the bomber formations just before crossing into France, then escort as far as fuel would allow, then RTB, leaving bombers on their own for bombing run.
in the meantime a second escort flight would have already taken off to meet the bomber formation as it left the target area and escort back to the channel.
In this mix I think the escorts had a top cover while inbound and outbound from the staging area.
Also wasnt the P-38 used for the early escort runs first? and then switched to P-47? or do I have that backwards.
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Great stories!
Anyone have pics to show?
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Originally posted by Airscrew
Sable, If IRC from some books I have read, Escorts would meet the bomber formations just before crossing into France, then escort as far as fuel would allow, then RTB, leaving bombers on their own for bombing run.
in the meantime a second escort flight would have already taken off to meet the bomber formation as it left the target area and escort back to the channel.
In this mix I think the escorts had a top cover while inbound and outbound from the staging area.
Also wasnt the P-38 used for the early escort runs first? and then switched to P-47? or do I have that backwards.
The sector patrol system you describe is accurate, and was what 8th AF used for most of the war. Somehow it's become legend that the 38s were the first escorts, but they weren't. 20th and 55th FGs didn't become operational until, er, November-December, 1943. The 47 groups had been flying since the spring.
- oldman
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Didn't the p47 lack the range to escort the bombers all the wat to the target?:confused:
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Originally posted by gear
Didn't the p47 lack the range to escort the bombers all the wat to the target?:confused:
It did at first, which was why the 1943 missions were so disastrous for the 8th Bomber Command. By December 1943 or January, 1944 the 47s had the 108-gallon paper drop tanks, so that the bombers were able to fly within the fighter-protected zones all the way to the target and back.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Treize69
Nah it was a P-47 that I got a good 15-20 minutes before I engaged the buffs.
Beats me, I'm just confused now.
Is there any way I can check and see the IDs of my last few kills?
White 13 that 47D-11 u got was me <> with my head up my arse when u attacked. I just got done dispensing one of ur Kraut buddy <> I was typing away to see if I can rejoin with the bomber group, then I see these trailers all around me. BOOM!! I'm blown out of the sky. Hopefully next time, I can stay with the flight group.
But <> to you Axis Crud
SINKER
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Axis Crud!! Wow, I think he likes you! :)
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Originally posted by XAKL
group, then I see these trailers all around me. BOOM!! I'm blown out of the sky. Hopefully next time, I can stay with the flight group.
But <> to you Axis Crud
SINKER
Anyone who see's TRAILERS that high has got some good chit,unless some axsis flyer was dragging his AIRSTREAM behind him.:lol
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Originally posted by XAKL
White 13 that 47D-11 u got was me <> with my head up my arse when u attacked. I just got done dispensing one of ur Kraut buddy <> I was typing away to see if I can rejoin with the bomber group, then I see these trailers all around me. BOOM!! I'm blown out of the sky. Hopefully next time, I can stay with the flight group.
But <> to you Axis Crud
SINKER
Hmmm!...
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Originally posted by XAKL
White 13 that 47D-11 u got was me <> with my head up my arse when u attacked. I just got done dispensing one of ur Kraut buddy <> I was typing away to see if I can rejoin with the bomber group, then I see these trailers all around me. BOOM!! I'm blown out of the sky. Hopefully next time, I can stay with the flight group.
But <> to you Axis Crud
SINKER
Yes, I see that indeed I have become quite the good rabbit . . .
Albeit an often dead one . . .
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Ah, ok. it was Sinker, not Stringer. I thought of that on the drive to work Thursday morning, I was so dog gone tired that night that its a wonder I could even hit anything I shot at. :)
My thought process on the run in to you was-
"Does he see me? He has to see me! I'm closing awfully fast... Are we going head-on? No, I see the undersides of his wings. I'm actually catching a '47up here!? He must be sleeping. Well if I let him go he'll just kill me later... Oh crap, I'm gonna hit him! SHOOT RETARD!!! Wow, he exploded nice."
All in the span of about 2.5 seconds. :aok