Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on February 08, 2006, 09:09:27 PM
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Ok, I think I'm getting me a rifle and I like this general family.
Can any of you guys tell me about this one?
Currently I'm looking just at shooting targets, but since I'm buying a rifle I might as well make it one that can be used for hunting if I decide to go that way at some point.
The 700 comes in all sorts of calibers and models, can you point me to anything more specific?
Or suggest other choices.
Please remember I live in Cali so nothing really fun is allowed.
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The 700 has a reputation for more than decent accuracy out of the box. They are good rifles, generally less expensive than a comparable Winchester 70. It really is kind of like the Ford vs Chevy arguements as both brands have their fans.
For caliber, it all depends on waht you are going to hunt. You don't want a .223 if you will be hunting deer or larger game. On the other side you don't need a 300 Win Magnum to hunt deer and small game either. Once you let us know what you are likely to go after, caliber gets easier to pick.
As a general rule a .308 or 30-06 will be easier to use for more than one type of game. The .308 and 30-06 can be loaded for everything from varmints up to bear. There are calibers that do specific jobs better but those two are very versatile if you will be limited to one rifle.
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Remington Model 700 is considered to be one of the more accurate rifles right out of the box. Trigger is better than a Ruger's.
Not too fond, myself, of the overall stock configuration or finish. On every one I have ever fired the safety let off with a very audible snap...louder than it should be for game at close range, although in the wide open spaces of the western states that is undoubtedly not much of a problem.
If you're gonna just tote, walk, and shoot at targets of opportunity...I'd get one of the light-weight mountain rifle version of the model 700.
Unless you like heavy recoil, I'd go for one of the lighter, high velocity calibers...243, 7mm-08, etc.
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Get the one with the heavy barrel.
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Heavy barrel is ok but not for hunting. Not only is it unnecessary weight but it's not needed for the 1 or 2 shots you will take at game.
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If you want a Remington 700, in a caliber you can use for most game and target shooting, get a 700BDL, chambered in .308 Winchester, with a medium taper 24" barrel. The .308 is about 10% lower in power than the .30-06, and is usually somewhat more accurate. If you are interested in benchrest style target shooting, get a heavy barrel. I really prefer a 26" barrel, but you'll have a hard time finding one on the shelf. I'm a Winchester Model 70 man myself, and for me I prefer a 300 Winchester Magnum with a 26" barrel, but the Remington 700BDL should be fine for you in .308 Winchester.
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I'm happy with my A-bolt... Haven't had a chance to take it out into the field but on the range it's been real nice. Only fit/finish gripe is that the synthetic stock is slightly warped and the forestock very lightly touches the barrel one one side at the end. It doesn't seem to affect accuracy though... My best 3-shot group so far is 1.5" at 200 yards, shooting off of concrete bench rest without any help other than a generic sling.
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=001B&cat_id=035&type_id=008
Mine is in 7mm Rem Mag and I have the "BOSS" tunable anti-recoil dingus installed. Really helps with recoil and I assume I got lucky with the barrel tuning due to the great results I got with minimal adjustment. It adds a bit of blast back every shot, but it's not bad and even regular foamie earplugs minimize the effect. The only "trick" is that although the recoil is less sharp, the impulse is over a longer period of time so if you don't hold the rifle in real tight, it gets a running start at your shoulder and bangs you up worse than it would have without the anti-recoil device. But with a light shooting pad and a good firm grip, it's real easy to shoot.
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I prefer the browning with the boss as well. I'm also partial to the ruger. but there is absolutely nothing wrong the 700 or the model 70.
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It shoots bullets. I like it.
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I have used one of the 7mm versions, a very accurate gun and a very hard hitting round. Not so cheap to shoot though, even reloading. The .270 is a VERY nice round, easy on the recoil, common enough that its easy to find ammo for it. Not as much power as some of the larger rounds though. The .243 is just as nice to shoot, and just as accurate, but again it lacks the power of some of the other rounds. The .300 is a real hard hitter, also accurate, but again not as common and more expensive to shoot. I'd have to agree overall the .308 is probably the best all around choice, maximizing the power/accuracy balance. More common than the .300 or the 7mm, not as common as the .270 or .243, easy to find reload supplies and cheap enough if you go that route. The .30-.06 is probably the most common round, easiest to find ammo, cheapest and easiest to reload, just as powerful as the .308. Downside (to me) is its a bit harsher on the felt recoil, and (IMO) not quite as accurate as the .308.
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if there wuz a god, and he liked remington 700's; then he'd have a .308
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I've got a 700 in .300 Win Mag. Love it. The gun will shoot tighter groups than the operator is capable of.
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I`m also partial to Ruger bolt 270 or BAR 270,both shoot sweet..had a remmy 30.06 and hated it..scared my mule!..plus ya always knew you had fired the darn thing the next day........
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Have you considered a gentlemen's rifle?
(http://home.simplyweb.net/hpent/RugerNo1.jpg)
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Grunherz, did you plan on hunting or putting a scope on it? If not and you're just looking for a "shooter" for the range, also look into a military surplus rifle. You can get a Mosin, Mauser or Swiss K31 for under $130 from Big 5 Sporting Goods here in Cali. Surplus ammo is also cheap, except for the K31, and all can be fun accurate rifles.
My friend has a Remington 700 in .270 and really likes it.
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NRA leadership has a history of rewarding gun makers for gun treason. For example, thanks to the "Winning" Team, few activists are aware that S&W's collaboration with the enemy pales in comparison to that of Bill Ruger, father of 10-round magazine limits and the anti-"assault weapon" movement. While the Roos-Roberti assault weapon ban loomed in California, Ruger appeased the victim disarmers by pushing to ban large magazines. Meanwhile, he lobbied to keep his Mini-14 off the ban list, arguing that it was a sporting gun, not one of those evil assault weapons. NRA reinforced his sellout by opposing the ban on the grounds that it included too many "legitimate" sporting guns, naming some rifles that should be exempted.
Ruger won't get my money for any new firearm.
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M1As are fun and you can buy them in Cali.
I would go with a .308 myself if I were going to get a 700.
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I'm thinking of going with a scope, and 308 seems to be the caliber.
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If it were me, and I had money (I have 10 dollars that need to purchase 200 dollars worth of stuff by the end of the week), I would go .30-06. Just because it's classic and I can switch the ammo in and out of my Garands and 1903's.
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Who you planing on buying from? When I checked reads prices on M1As they were about 50 bucks more for the same rifle as target masters.
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I'm not sure yet GTO, it's still a few months away since I just spend a bunch on my car for new tires and high milage service and i dont like to make too many big purcases at once.
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Depending what you are gonna hunt i would pick the 223 cal.
accurate as stink and cheaper to shoot-reload and will take most varmits 80lbs and below with ease.
Group i shot yesterday at 100yds 20mph crosswind.
Rifle savage 12fv 223 cal.
Ammo hand loads 26.0 grn of H335 powder fed 205 pimers and sierra 52grn matchkings
[IMG=http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/8792/tg0028yf.th.jpg] (http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tg0028yf.jpg)
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Whatever you do with the Remington DO NOT GET AN ADL VERSION. I have owned a Model 700 .30-06 for many years now long before you had the ADL, BDL and CDL version. My 700 is what is now known as the CDL version and its absolutely dead on at 300 yds plus but I also have a Swarovski 3x9x36.
(http://web3.h145898.serverkompetenz.net/UserFiles/swarovski_optik/Image/popup/POPUP_AV%203-9X36.jpg)
The ADL version of the Model 700 is not manufactured to the same standard as the BDL and CDL versions. Sure it shoots fine and is even accurate but having shot and sold several of them they are also the ones with the highest defect rate in that family. I would like to get another one in either .308 or .270 to go along with my .30-06.
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I have a BDL in 30-06 caliber... Fine rifle, but for the relatively same cost, I purchased a Browning A-Bolt in the 7MM Rem. Mag. WOW, what a difference... I love my 700, but the Browning has a 60 degree throw on the bolt, so you don't bang your hand against the scope every time you rack one in.
If you do decide on a 700, my suggestion is to get one that is designated as a DM (Detachable Magazine). Some 700's, like mine, have a spring that holds the mag in place, but when it is released, the bullets go everywhere... So, the DM was brought about (which was a design taken from the stock Browning A-Bolt).
As far as the caliber you go, EVERYBODY has an opinion... If you are hunting over open field, a flat trajectory bullet like .308 is outstanding (when my dad was a sniper for our local sheriff's dept., he used a 700 BDL with a necked-down .308 because it was so flat shooting, plus it had good penetration). The problem with the .308 is that if you hunt in cover, the slightest nick of a bush, cattail, etc. will knock the bullet off line.
If you will be hunting in timber, brush, etc., the 7MM Rem. Mag (outfitted with a BOSS so as not the blow you against the tree) would be a good idea. I've personally shot up to 400 yds. in Kansas with the 7 Mag, and it has always been good to me.
If you go to Winchester's website, you can view the ballistics on all calibers and see what their muzzle velocity, drop compensation, etc is. That will help you decide on the caliber that is right for you. A .308 or 7 Mag or .270 would most likely be the most beneficial... Good luck.
Just my $.02, although it's more like a dollar LOL
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=001B&cat_id=035&type_id=008
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=001B&cat_id=035&type_id=002
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Have a 700BDL in .308, Leopold 3X9 power scope and this thing shoots!!!! I have yet to miss anything I have shot at. It hits everytime on target. I love mine.
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I have a model 700P in .308. I've put 5 bullets through the same hole at 200 yards. Then I have a model 700 sendero SF (stainless fluted) in 7mm STW that I don't particularly care for. The accuracy has suffered a bit on that one. Only 1" groups at 200 with it.
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Originally posted by Mini D
I have a model 700P in .308. I've put 5 bullets through the same hole at 200 yards.
:rofl :rofl
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Disbelief? It's not that difficult off of a bench with a decent scope and decent rounds. The rifle is nasty accurate.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ok, I think I'm getting me a rifle and I like this general family.
Can any of you guys tell me about this one?
Currently I'm looking just at shooting targets, but since I'm buying a rifle I might as well make it one that can be used for hunting if I decide to go that way at some point.
The 700 comes in all sorts of calibers and models, can you point me to anything more specific?
Or suggest other choices.
Please remember I live in Cali so nothing really fun is allowed.
You sound like alot of the customers that come into my familys stores. How much target shooting are you going to do? If its alot, then go for a 243. If its going to be 50/50 target shooting/hunting then look at either a 308 or an '06. If you're going to use it just as a deer rifle then a 243 will do fine, anything bigger than deer and you are really stretching the limits of what the 243 can do. If you dont mind a little recoil then to hell with the debate and go with either a 308 or an '06. The 308 and 06 has killed everything on the planet, if you're looking for an all-round rifle to both target shoot and hunt with, those are the two calibers to stick close to.
Its really up to you and what you're comfortable shooting. If you're going to hate shooting it, you're not going to shoot it well. It sounds like this is going to be your first rifle. If that's the case then a 243 isn't a bad choice at all. In fact, its a very good choice. Assuming that's the case. I have several 700's and they shoot very well. My favorite 700, is a classic in 35 Whalen. I've taken everything from deer, elk, to prong horn with it, dozens of Squirrels too... which were just targets of op. I love it. But I'll always like single shots better than all the rest. Yep, the No 1's and No 3's Suave, dem's is sweet rifles. I bet you'd like the one I am in the process of building.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Disbelief? It's not that difficult off of a bench with a decent scope and decent rounds. The rifle is nasty accurate.
In 40 years of shooting and the last 20 competitive shooting I have never seen anyone including national champions put five rounds thru the same hole at 200 yds.
Heck I aint never seen it done at 100yards.
because what you discribed would be called 0 MOA > minute of angle.
Now it is possible that five rounds could be all touching each other as then it would be more 1/4 MOA.
To put it simple the US Army's M24 sniper rifle does 1/2 inch MOA and thats with
highly trained shooters .
MOA is just slightly over 1 inch at 100 yards and is usually rounded off to 1 inch.a MOA group is usually considered to be 1 inch center to center of the widest holes.MOA is also relative to distance.
1MOA = 1 inch at 100 yds.
= 2 inch at 200 yds.
= 3 inch at 300 yds.
= 10 inch at 1000 yds.
Now some of those bench rest shooters get some really great groupings but even them cats cant single hole it and they shooting $15.000.00 guns.
Not to call your claim BS so dont take it the wrong way but I would love to see a pic of that target;)
(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9940/tar0047ja.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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.257 Roberts.
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that's some fine shooting fartwrinkle. if the topic is game animals, there is nothing in N. America that the .30-06 can't bring down. for a prudent hunter there is nothing in the world that the .30-06 can't handle. I agree with other posters that the .243 is plenty for white tail and carefully placed rounds will kill just about anything encountered in N. America. heres an anecdote. way back when as I first started hunting I went on a boar hunt in the summer with a much more experienced friend. at about 150 yards through some brush I spot some shiny black fur. my bud assures me it's a pig and tells me to fire which I do. I missed!! but oddly the pig doesn't run. so I a chamber another round and fire, missed again!!! the animal is still right where it was unbelievably!!!!! my bud muttering something about noobs with ladies guns (I was shooting a model 70 in .243) shoots it with his .30-06 and he misses!!!! he fires again and misses again!!!! he says no fluff'n way I missed so we wait a bit and the beast still hasn't moved. after a long time cautiously we approach to find that we had killed a fine bull that was lying down in the shade on a hot florida day. not sticking around to find out who owned it, we were hunting on public land. I suspect my first l'il .243 must have severed it's spine and the .30-06s bled him out. I still feel real bad about that incident though it happened thirty years ago.
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I've done it a couple of times. I didn't realize it was so special. A 1" group is a bit excessive at 100 yards... are you sure about that.. from a bench? Sorry I don't have the targets, but it's not anything I ever thought I'd have to "prove".
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I admit to be no rifle shot. The best I ever did was a 3" group at 100 yards with a 760 remington ought six with open sights. Everyone allways tells me that they can shoot half inch groups at 100 yards with their everyday hunting rifles but that day.... the best any of the four could do was a 2" group and all of em had 9 power scopes. There were lots of excuses and lot's of do overs with things never getting much better.
I feel damn lucky to keep 5 or 8 rounds in a five inch circle with open sights at 100 yards.... really a decent day if I can do about twice that with 6 rounds with a handgun with open sights.
Most of the hunters I see are shooting 2 or 3" 100 yard groups from sandbags at 100 yards with scopes. The benchrest specialty guys with big bores are doing like an inch...
lazs
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Laz, if you can put 5 rounds in a 5" circle on open sights at 100 yards off of a bench you are a fine shot by anybodys standards. The FAL and the M-39 do it for me routinely when I'm having a good day.
And a scope might help finesse a lil better group.. but the scope does not shoot the gun.
For those less experienced.. a 5" black circle on a 100 yard target using open sights is the apparent size of this > .
Some rifles excell on a target line.. some of my heavy barreled old military bolties are shockingly accurate on el-cheapo brass cased surplus ammo off the bench.. Feed the same cheap ammo into a tarted up Remmy on the bench and it won't hick dick. Go figure. I picked up real early on that the way to get the thousand dollar rifle to perform like a thousand dollar rifle was to feed it hundred dollar ammo... or handloads done by somebody that's matched the ammo to the barrel and chamber. Then they shoot better than my hundred dollar mil-surp shootin 10 cent ammo. But not a thousand bucks worth better.
Most 'hunting' rifles have fairly light barrels and are optimized for 1-2 shots. Warm the gun up some and accuracy goes south. Others, built 'old world' style do better.. like the old military bolties; they do fine chuckin a 100 rounds in a half hour.. something that most 'sportsmen' would never do to their rifles; too pricey and it wears the gun out. One thing most 'sporting rifles' won't tolerate is volume.. the barrels get 'shot out' a whole lot sooner than the old military weapons.
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You would really need to neglect a rifle to shoot out a barrel today. It's something that is going to happen down the road with alot of shooting, but it's not going to happen that soon. I have a few 06's that have had 1000's of rounds though them, they still hold 1/2 at 100 yards. On the other hand, I have an old 220 swift built on a winchester pre64 action and that has burnt the throats out of 2 barrels already. But you're talking in some cases more than 2000 fps more than an 06 with a 220 swift.
Large caliber hunting rifles aren't meant to be taken to the range and have 100s of rounds shot through them on a daily basis. And you're probably going to be one sore puppy at the end of one of those days.
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Storch you are partly correct in that the 30-06 will take most N American game.
But to be honest I dont think I would truct my arse hunting kodiak or grizzlys with anything less than a 416 rigby or 460 wetherby mag.
As far as African big game Most guides will not take you out hunting for Rhino's or elephants with anything less than something like a 500nitro express and even with that you have to get a brain shot.
I watched a show the other day were these dudes shot at a charging elephante
and shot him in the forehead from about 40ft slowed him down but it took another three shots to kill him.
And that was with a 500nitro.
I would use a 30cal on brown bear and smaller but never on a grizz or kodiak
They are just plain mean.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
You would really need to neglect a rifle to shoot out a barrel today. It's something that is going to happen down the road with alot of shooting, but it's not going to happen that soon. I have a few 06's that have had 1000's of rounds though them, they still hold 1/2 at 100 yards. On the other hand, I have an old 220 swift built on a winchester pre64 action and that has burnt the throats out of 2 barrels already. But you're talking in some cases more than 2000 fps more than an 06 with a 220 swift.
Large caliber hunting rifles aren't meant to be taken to the range and have 100s of rounds shot through them on a daily basis. And you're probably going to be one sore puppy at the end of one of those days.
I had a dude explain barrell life once.
he told me that the more powder used to propell the bullett IE: big caliber the faster it will wearout.
Example my 223 will last alot longer than say a 338 lapua.
I can expect around 10.000 rounds with my pee shooter but with my 300 win mag I will get around 2.000 rnds.
It has alot to do with throat erossion as the more pwerfull load will burn away at the throat and also the greater cup pressure will take its toll on the barrell.
I also clean my barrell every 15 rnds while at the range keeps it accurate and prolong barrell life.
And yes it is correct that a hunting rifle with a smaller barrell will shoot out faster.
You have to remember that they have to take into consideration weight when making a hunting rifle who wants to lug around a 16lb rifle LOL.
Where as the bechrest people often will have guns the weight 30lbs or more.
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More powder wont nesesarily wear out a barrle faster. There's far more to it than just that. The Ruger No 1 that I am building right now in 45-120 will have a crap load more powder in it than you could ever sqeeze into an 06 case. But it also operates at far less pressures. I will never shoot that barrel out, and it will be shooting long after I am dead and gone.
More powder will a small caliber round like a 220 swift will deffinatly speed up the life cycle of a barrle however.
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I've heard many times the '2,000 rounds' barrel life ceiling.. and have seen a guy struggling with a beautiful 30-06 Mod 70 that was 'shot out' at 3,000 rounds.
This, to me at least, is unacceptable. I admit I'm way over the edge gun-happy; I curn a minimum of 500 rounds a month on the range, last month I did three times that. But in the back of my mind to see it commonly accepted that a 'sporting' rifles accuracy life is only a few thousand rounds is accepting a standard that's way the hell too low. That's not a rifle... it's a damn ornament.
Weight-wize; my old M-39 tips the scales at just under 10 pounds empty. My lil 'extreme scout carbine' from Gibbs (an ishapore enfield .308 cut to carbine length) weighs in at 7.7 pounds empty. Both can shoot the 5" circle of truth at 100 yards reliably all damn day, and will do so for many many years to come with correct maintenance. Both are .30 cal heavy-hitters, both have stout recoils. Know something? I don't feel a damn thing any more.. the body adapts quickly.
If a 'hunter' can't tote a 10 pound rifle all damn day, and moans about a sore shoulder after a few shots then he's just a grapefruit IMHO. ;) Whats he gonna do with a 200 pound dead deer if he can't carry or adequitly absorb the recoil from a 10 pound rifle?
So, if given the choice between a 'heavy barrel' and 'light barrel' version of the same weapon I'd buy the 'heavy' one every time.. why buy into a failed weapon design that'll be an ornament in a few months of target shooting? Especially considering that by the time you need a new one, you'll likely be prohibited from buying it?
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I'm more of a Winchester guy, but The Remmington line is just as good.
as far as what caliber, I would go with the 30.06. IMO this is the most versatile caliber for hunting big game. Ie...Elk, and Deer. Its alittle underpowered for Moose, Brown, or Grizzley bear, but If your a good shot.....Still, I think I'd opt for a tall stand if I were to use a .06 on a bear.
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Barrel wear has NOTHING to do with the size/weight of the projectile. NOTHING.
It has everything to do with the amount of powder capacity compared to the bore size.
For example, and I speak from long term serious first hand experience, my 300 Winchester Magnum DOES NOT wear the barrel anywhere near the rate that my old 220 Swift did. It is not even close. And my 300 Winchester Magnum uses 74.5 grains of slow magnum powder behind a .308 diameter 168 grain bullet, compared to the little .223 diameter 50 grain bullet in the 220 Swift with about 40 grains of the same powder.
Now, if you step up to 300 Kong(AKA 300-378 or 308-378) or something along that order, you'll find the powder capacity in relation to the bore size is more closely comparable to the 220 Swift. Those rifles WILL wear a barrel like a 220 Swift.
The OLD chrome moly barrels from a few decades back were not as hard as the barrels today are, the heat treat is different. Never mind the fact that stainless steel has become the choice for serious overbored high velocity rifles.
It isn't even the speed difference. Again, using MY rifles as an example, the 300 Winchester pushes its 168 grain bullet around 3200 FPS, where the old 220 Swift, before I ruined it, pushed a 50 grain bullet to nearly 4200 FPS. But it was the powder burning that killed the 220 Swift, because you shoot the THROAT out, not the muzzle where the bullet is fastest.
My 300 Winchester Magnum has over 2000 rounds through it, and the throat looks great. The problem is there is now a rust spot near the muzzle where a relative borrowed it and failed to oil and clean it. It still shoots sub MOA groups, but not as consistently. So it's getting a new Douglas air gapped premium 26" number 5 taper barrel.
The 220 Swift is another story. At around 1000 rounds, I noticed the accuracy was falling off, and the bullet drop was growing at long range. So I took a chronograph and checked my velocity. Finding it off about 150 FPS, I decided I'd bump the load up a little, as I'd moved to a new lot of powder. So, I did. Next time I shot, I began to notice serious pressure signs. They were not real danger signs, but pressure had gone up. Back to the chronograph. Uh oh, I only got 40 FPS back. A complete disassembly and inspection showed serious throat wear. Cause? I had been fooling around shooting crows and varmints, and firing the gun way too many times per hour. Talking to an old gunsmith, he explained EXACTLY what I'd done by looking at the rifle BEFORE I told him anything, and then he told me how the rifle was shooting, BEFORE I told him. heating the barrel up softened the steel, and the heavy overbore charge had eroded the throat, I had literally shot the barrel out.
I have fired the 300 Winchester as fast, or even faster, than the 220 Swift. The throat is fine. You can do the same thing as I did to the 220 Swift, to a 22-250, as the powder capacity is close, with the 220 Swift on average about 150 FPS faster than a 22-250. I have even seen 223 Remingtons with the throat shot out, when doing rapid fire target shooting, or shooting varmints in locations like a prarie dog town.
These days, barrel steel is better, especially the stainless steels, and so long as you are smarter than I was, a 220 Swift or a 22-250 will last forever, properly loaded and maintained.
Since the chamber diameter is pretty much the same regardless of the barrels style or taper (the diameter of the chamber end of the barrel is determined by the action, you have to have the right diameter to screw into the action), barrel weight/taper does not have as much to do with barrel wear as you might imagine. You MIGHT be able to make the case that a straight taper barrel is a better heat sink. But the diameter at the end of the chamber and the throat will be close to the same regardless of the taper, because of where the taper starts. The reason bench rest shooters use heavy straight taper barrels isn't wear, it is stiffness.
Certain types of powder will make the wear problem worse as well. And the slower the powder the worse the wear.
The reason you don't see it too much in the M-16/AR-15 family as the popularity of chrome lined barrels on those rifles.
We use 44 Magnum and 45 Colt lever guns on brown and black bear (mostly black bear) around here (we often use handguns on both bear and boar). We've looked at going to Alaska to hunt really BIG bear, like Kodiak. If we go, I'll likely get a 50 Alaskan lever gun. I prefer large heavy bullets at medium velocity for use on really big game, because they break large bones and continue to penetrate. I'm not that big on 458 Winchester or those type rounds, and I really don't like larger bolt guns for that type hunting. I'd much rather have a fast handling 50 caliber lever gun with 5-7 rounds than a slower bolt gun with 3.
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I just love my Sigarms SHR-970 in 30-06. Already got a deer with it. It had a soother action than all, except a Weatherby.
Karaya
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This is a repost from a chap in another forum but he does a better job explaining it than i do.
The 5000 or 1500 round count is more of a "life expectancy" issue than an absolute maximum. For example... It has long been SOP for military armorers to use a throat erosion gauge to determine if a barrel should be replaced. If the throat reading off the gauge is grater than 5 and the "No Go" muzzle gauge drops in the bore, that barrel comes off and is replaced.
Other variables are the type of loading you are feeding the rifle. Light bullets, light powder charge means light pressure. Heavy bullets, heavy powder charge means high pressure. One will erode a barrel faster than the other. How do you shoot? Do you shoot 20 round strings in under 5 minutes all day long, or allow the barrel to cool between each shot. Are you shooting in a desert where prairie dust and sand blow in the bore or in a milder climate without that. These variables will mean that two shooters with identical equipment will yield different results.
So, if you add up your rounds in the log book and see that your round count is fast approaching the end of the line number, and the rifle is still shoots sub 1/2 MOA, keep shooting it until you notice the groups beginning to spread open. Just so long as we are not talking about a duty weapon. I remember reading someone's post where they spent extra money on a particular makers barrel ( I don't remember who's ) But the were getting 8,000 or 10,000 round of 308 out of them. Wow... I have never had a barrel last that long.
Its kind of like buying a new car, you are supposed to get 10 years out of it. However - some never make it half that long. Others press on long after that. The 1977 Chevy 3/4 ton is fine for work around the farm, but I don't trust it to drive across the country on vacation. But military and police organizations like hard numbers. That's why Navy Aircraft Carrier crews dump their arrestor cables overboard after they have snagged 100 landing aircraft. Could they last longer? Most likely. Is it worth loosing a 32 Million dollar aircraft and trained air crew over the 25 dollar cable? No. Same principle if a police sharpshooter or if a major competition competitor puts a round where its NOT supposed to go.
If innocent lives or duty depends on your rifle. Pay heed to the round count rule. If you shoot for fun, shoot until the groups open past your "acceptable" point. Now, those are facts. Not opinion
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12 reasons to go with a 308win
1.) The above will be capable of making about 90% of all shots required.
2.) The 308 is the most researched cartridge on the planet.
3.) The cost of .308 Match grade ammo will not jeopardize the mortgage.
4.) .300 Mag ammo is moderately more expensive.
5.) .338 Lapua ammo is over Sixty Dollars a box of 20 rounds!
6.) Barrel life is 5000 rounds as opposed to 1500 rounds.
7.) The 308 is very capable to 1000 yards
8.) Few shooters have access to a range greater than 1000 yards
9.) Most shots are at ranges less than 1000 yards
10.) 308 Ammo is easily found at most stores.
11.) Military surplus 308 is readily available. Including match.
12.) You can easily find 308 data on ANY shooting scenario.
13.) The US Army and USMC both view the 308 as the most practical sniping cartridge
14.) If the target is less than 1200 yards away and you cant hit it, its the shooter, not the cartridge.
15.) You can fire a 308 all day and not look & feel like you were in a boxing match.
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To put it simply; excessive heat generated by overbore cartridges erodes the throat of a barrel faster than does the more moderate temperatures generated by more sensible cartridges.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
To put it simply; excessive heat generated by overbore cartridges erodes the throat of a barrel faster than does the more moderate temperatures generated by more sensible cartridges.
Yeppers that and CUP pressures.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
More powder wont nesesarily wear out a barrle faster. There's far more to it than just that. The Ruger No 1 that I am building right now in 45-120 will have a crap load more powder in it than you could ever sqeeze into an 06 case. But it also operates at far less pressures. I will never shoot that barrel out, and it will be shooting long after I am dead and gone.
More powder will a small caliber round like a 220 swift will deffinatly speed up the life cycle of a barrle however.
You sir, are a discerning gentlemen.
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also... different powders have different burning rates.
lazs
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Grun, I'm surprised that a conservative person such as yourself is chosing the liberal Remington 700 over the Ruger no. 1. I mean you even have a Thatcher quote as your sig. As a person reknown for never missing the mark with her understated and conservative choice of attire, there's no doubt what her choice would be.
You should give this decision more time. This is a decision that bears lifelong consequences. Don't be the fool with the bimbo trophy wife.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
More powder wont nesesarily wear out a barrle faster. There's far more to it than just that. The Ruger No 1 that I am building right now in 45-120 will have a crap load more powder in it than you could ever sqeeze into an 06 case. But it also operates at far less pressures. I will never shoot that barrel out, and it will be shooting long after I am dead and gone.
More powder will a small caliber round like a 220 swift will deffinatly speed up the life cycle of a barrle however.
45-120?!!! I have a Springfield Trapdoor 45-70 (which I'm taking to the range with the other AH guys this weekend). And I'm lusting after a Sharps 45-110. But a freaking 45-120? That should be somewhere north of 3000 FPE correct?
Got pics or more info on this project?
Random thought... You know they make pistols for 45-70, how 'bout one to shoot your 45-120 :lol
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We had a trapdoor carbine at the shop for god knows how long. I put it in the back, then put it back out on the rack probably 2 dozen times. I wanted it bad... But at the time I was saving up for a sharps, not one in particular, just the first one I came across that was a good deal and wasnt hacked, so I let the carbine go. Then we got in a Cadet trapdoor and I wanted that even more.... but it was on consignment and the dude wanted way too much for it.
here's a couple pics from about a month ago of the no.1
http://www.furballunderground.com/misc/100_4255.JPG
http://www.furballunderground.com/misc/100_4258.JPG
I am a big fan of case coloring, so I had the action sent out to Turnbull Restoration who does all the high end restorations for colt and winchester. He case colors the old school way, and the pictures dont do justice to how sweet it came out.
The barrel is from Sharps, it was 36 inches, when i got it. I chambered it to 45-120 and cut it to 34''. 36 was just way, way too friggin long. The recoil is no worse than something like a 338. That's the best comparison I can make to its recoil. Barrel is off now and getting blued . A gunsmith I know has a bunch of nice old english walnut stock blanks. I am thinking of going with a straight stock. The tangs on the No1 are very close to a No3's which has a straight stock i should probably be able to make it work and look good. I did it all bellybutton backwards, you normally want to fit a stock before all the metal work is done (bluing, ect), but I'll tape it all up and just have to be careful of what I'm doing.
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Just read that Winchester is considering dropping the Model 70 and the Model 94. They'll close the New Haven plant if they do. It'll be a very sad day for shooters present and future. It'll drive the prices on used guns WAY up. If you want one, now is the time to buy.
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I wouldnt buy a new Model 70 now anyways savage. They're nothing like what they were 8-10 years ago. I wont even compare them to a pre64 because they're worlds apart. I have a huge love for the old school stuff, as you can probably tell. I think I got that way through watching my father. He knows what's good, growing up I got to learn alot from watching him and hanging out in gun stores since before I could walk.
Winchester is in deep doodoo. So is colt. Kimber really put a hurtin on them with their 1911's the last few years. We were selling Kimbers like they were bags of potato chips at a 7/11 over the summer. Honestly I was amazed at how many I watched go out the door. The new colts just sat there pretty much. The only thing keeping them alive is their M16's and other military contracts. Pretty sad to drive by their plant here in connecticut and see the employee parking lot near empty on a working day.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Just read that Winchester is considering dropping the Model 70 and the Model 94. They'll close the New Haven plant if they do. It'll be a very sad day for shooters present and future. It'll drive the prices on used guns WAY up. If you want one, now is the time to buy.
I paid a visit to my local gunshop on Tuesday and walked out the door with a Winchester Defender... then the proprietor came yelling after me so I walked back and paid for it. It's about 15 years old with nice woodwork and in mint condition, not a mark on it. The original owner was a only a collector and he had never even fired it. It was sitting in a rack full of ratty old used .22 rifles in a corner of the shop while the more popular and less costly Mossy, Rem and Norinco pump guns had a rack to themselves in a prominent display area. I'm a Winchester fan so it was an easy decision for me, but the gun dealers here in NZ don't import many Winchesters anymore cause they just collect dust in the shop racks.. they are too exspensive. And it's already getting harder to find good used Winchester rifles/guns like my Defender at reasonable prices so I hate too think what it will do to the avalibility and prices in the future if the Model 70, 94 and 1300 are dropped.
Excel
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Originally posted by Morpheus
I wouldnt buy a new Model 70 now anyways savage. They're nothing like what they were 8-10 years ago. I wont even compare them to a pre64 because they're worlds apart. I have a huge love for the old school stuff, as you can probably tell. I think I got that way through watching my father. He knows what's good, growing up I got to learn alot from watching him and hanging out in gun stores since before I could walk.
Winchester is in deep doodoo. So is colt. Kimber really put a hurtin on them with their 1911's the last few years. We were selling Kimbers like they were bags of potato chips at a 7/11 over the summer. Honestly I was amazed at how many I watched go out the door. The new colts just sat there pretty much. The only thing keeping them alive is their M16's and other military contracts. Pretty sad to drive by their plant here in connecticut and see the employee parking lot near empty on a working day.
A close friend bought me a new Model 70 30-06 this fall because my model 670 300 is down with a porked barrel. Sadly, the new rifle is down as well. It is currently otw back to Winchester. Seems the firing pin is rusted, and the safety malfunctions. Sent it back where he bought it first, the independent service center brushed the rust out, put some oil on it and sent it back.
Still, I hope they don't discontinue the 70, the 94, and the 1300. Those are sort of icons, it would be bad to see them go. I guess I'll hit gunbroker and auctionarms and look for so extras to stock up on.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
I wouldnt buy a new Model 70 now anyways savage. They're nothing like what they were 8-10 years ago. I wont even compare them to a pre64 because they're worlds apart. I have a huge love for the old school stuff, as you can probably tell. I think I got that way through watching my father. He knows what's good, growing up I got to learn alot from watching him and hanging out in gun stores since before I could walk.
Winchester is in deep doodoo. So is colt. Kimber really put a hurtin on them with their 1911's the last few years. We were selling Kimbers like they were bags of potato chips at a 7/11 over the summer. Honestly I was amazed at how many I watched go out the door. The new colts just sat there pretty much. The only thing keeping them alive is their M16's and other military contracts. Pretty sad to drive by their plant here in connecticut and see the employee parking lot near empty on a working day.
Didn't colt come out and say they were going to stop selling a bunch of guns to civilians after some shooting about 10 years ago? I remeber it at least and remeber thinking I will never buy another new colt product.
There 1911s, have been junk for years, even before kimber they were overpriced, and you could get a better 1911 from other sources.
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Yep Colt shot themselves in the foot with American shooters after they took their stance. They tried to be politically correct and forgot just who pays their paychecks. The fallout hurt them quite a bit. I still do not bother to look for a Colt product. There are others who make a far better product for less $ in this and other countries. I like the 1911 but Colt doesn't really do it justice. Kimber is a far better product.
It's been more than 2 decades since writers started pining for the old pre 64 model 70. Winchester didn't pay much attention and now they too are paying the price. They figured the name was enough to maintain a profit. It isn't. in the mid 80's when I was looking for a new rifle I would have rather had a Savage or Ruger than a Winchester. In fact I ended up buying a Ruger for high power silhouette. The last 2 American rifles I bought have been a stainless Ruger Ranch rifle and a used Remington 600 in .308. Both from a gun show as the buys there were far better than the local stores. They were at the show as well but had ramped up their prices for the show. I did a price comparison at the store before the show, I wasn't happy with the change and never went back to them.