Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StarOfAfrica2 on February 15, 2006, 11:08:47 AM
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These people must send their kids to college in Washington.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11355863/
VANCOUVER, British Columbia - Peace activists have revived plans for a sculpture to commemorate Vietnam War draft resisters who fled to Canada, a proposal that had drawn the ire of U.S. veterans groups and conservatives.
The activists, who are also organizing a reunion for “draft dodgers” in July, said on Tuesday the proposed monument is still needed to warn Americans and Canadians about the dangers of militarism.
“It is very important educationally that we have specific peace monuments,” said Isaac Romano, an American who immigrated to Canada and now lives in British Columbia’s Kootenay region where many U.S. war resisters settled.
The plan for a monument in Nelson, B.C., was originally announced in 2004, but quickly dropped after it was denounced by the U.S. Veterans of Foreign Wars and conservative media commentators.
Nelson city officials withdrew support for the sculpture to avoid a threatened U.S. boycott of the area’s important tourism industry.
Romano said the activists have not decided on a location for the planned sculpture, and welcomed proposals from both Canadian and U.S. communities.
“It could be that there is a group in the States that sees it as an opportunity to remind Americans that they are not locked into the militarism. That there is an escape valve,” Romano said.
125,000 Americans made flight to Canada
The proposal calls for a sculpture of two Americans, a male and a female, crossing an imaginary border where a Canadian figure is waiting to welcome them.
It has been estimated that 125,000 draft-age Americans fled to Canada to avoid Vietnam and prosecution under U.S. law, although about half returned home after President Jimmy Carter granted amnesty in 1977.
Organizers of the Our Way Home reunion planned for Castlegar, B.C., in July say the event and sculpture are to honor both the Americans who resisted the war and the Canadians who helped them build lives in a new country.
Speakers at the four-day event are expected to include former U.S. Sen. George McGovern, who campaigned to get the United States out of Vietnam in his unsuccessful 1972 bid for the White House.
Romano said the event will also provide an opportunity for draft dodgers and Vietnam War veterans to discuss their differences on the decision to go to war.
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Not only is that an insult to american veterans, it's an insult to canadian veterans.
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Insane. The whole thing disgusts me.
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They're trying to figure out where best to put it. Some ideas:
*At about 150 feet down somewhere in a convenient ocean.
*Next to the statue commemorating the brave battle of that woman who sued McDonalds after she spilled coffee on herself.
*In Red Square, Moscow.
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holy crap. what a bunch of bull.
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I like how the city only caved on supporting them after they were threatened with losing US tourism money.
Even better the fact that this group has the gall to offer their little memorial to a US city. As if anyone would put up such an abomination on this side of the border.
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It's easy to be smug when there's no fear of a draft.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Not only is that an insult to american veterans, it's an insult to canadian veterans.
It is that. It disgusts me that this is happening up here - but it doesn't surprise me.
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Has nothing to do with being smug Sandy. Or fear of a Draft. Has to do with respect for those that served.
It should be pointed out that those of us that did serve learned as our fathers did that we serve not a Nation but each other. Those that did not serve saw a very different reality and by their perfidity, they killed Americans far more worthy of the blessings of peace than they..
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Sandy, what about all those liberals that served and died, don't you think this is a lack of respect for them? ;)
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Some people just don't realize that a "War Memorial" is actually a "Peace Memorial".
The darn things don't get built until there is a peace.
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Monument for Deserters, No.
No explaination necessary, but Hangtime's is pretty good.:aok
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Has nothing to do with being smug Sandy. Or fear of a Draft. Has to do with respect for those that served.
It should be pointed out that those of us that did serve learned as our fathers did that we serve not a Nation but each other. Those that did not serve saw a very different reality and by their perfidity, they killed Americans far more worthy of the blessings of peace than they..
Rather than blame the government for wasting 58,000 american lives in the wrong war at the wrong place, let's blame the people who chose to avoid it.
I don't think so.
Here's what I think. The people that chose to answer the call from their government did an honorable thing. They demonstrated trust in their government and a willingness to sacrifice their lives for the good of the nation. The people that chose not to, brought no honor upon themselves, but they also brought no dishonor either. The government acted in bad faith.
Do I think they deserve a monument in Canada? Not particularly. Do I think a monument in Canada would be disrepectful of veterans? Not particularly.
Oh... and draft evasion and desertion aren't the same thing.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Sandy, what about all those liberals that served and died, don't you think this is a lack of respect for them? ;)
I'm sorry Rip, could you remind us of your service time again? ;)
Normally I wouldn't ask, since I didn't volunteer to serve either, but then again, I'm not casting aspersions on folks who haven't served OR on folks who have but don't have the same political lemming....errr leaning as I might have.
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Oh... and draft evasion and desertion aren't the same thing.
Maybe not to you. I was brought up differently. Its fine to disagree. Its fine to voice your disapproval and work to have things changed. There are ways to do that. But when the country calls and says they need you, you dont run away and hide. Those men may not have deserted the armed forces, but they deserted their country. Every one of them committed Treason. They made their choice and left, and thats fine. Exile is good enough. If they wanted to protest then they should have just refused to fight and been arrested. I can respect that. I cant respect running away. I sure wont support building a monument to their cowardice.
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Oh... and draft evasion and desertion aren't the same thing
I disagree. If your country needs you, it's the same whether you are told to be in, or are already in.
Getting drafted is still a very honorable thing because you still choose whether or not to serve. And you still choose how to act when you are in the army.
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I'm surprised that people care what a bunch of retarded hippies in ****burg BC do.
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Let em do it.......
Then round em all up and shoot em!
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I disagree. If your country needs you, it's the same whether you are told to be in, or are already in.
Disagree all you want, but if you're already in, you've sworn this oath:
I, _____________________________ ______, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
This makes all the difference in the world to me.
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Originally posted by Stringer
I'm sorry Rip, could you remind us of your service time again? ;)
Normally I wouldn't ask, since I didn't volunteer to serve either, but then again, I'm not casting aspersions on folks who haven't served OR on folks who have but don't have the same political lemming....errr leaning as I might have.
I know you're a knight on a white horse coming again to your buddies defense, but you missed a sarcastic tone in my post that was related to another. So next time before you jump in with both feet in your mouth you should probably do alittle research next time. Thanks for playing! :)
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First, this is olden. The monument story was out last summer.
Second, since some of you "gung ho" types who were brought up "right" think evasion and desertion are one in the same, is getting multiple deferments the same as evasion? Think carefully before you answer.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Rather than blame the government for wasting 58,000 american lives in the wrong war at the wrong place, let's blame the people who chose to avoid it.
I don't think so.
Here's what I think. The people that chose to answer the call from their government did an honorable thing. They demonstrated trust in their government and a willingness to sacrifice their lives for the good of the nation. The people that chose not to, brought no honor upon themselves, but they also brought no dishonor either. The government acted in bad faith.
Do I think they deserve a monument in Canada? Not particularly. Do I think a monument in Canada would be disrepectful of veterans? Not particularly.
Oh... and draft evasion and desertion aren't the same thing.
Respectfully disagree, Sandy. Not to put too fine a point on it, the draft was law. Those that dodged, those that aided and abetted the communist efforts, those that wilfully or unwittingly supported the NVA propaganda machine or abandoned their place in the ranks have by their actions defecated upon those that did their duty. Over 5 million Americans served in the Vietnam Era.. the 125,000 who deserted or dodged made their choice. They deserve no honor, no 'memorial' and certainly no respect whatsover.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I know you're a knight on a white horse coming again to your buddies defense, but you missed a sarcastic tone in my post that was related to another. So next time before you jump in with both feet in your mouth you should probably do alittle research next time. Thanks for playing! :)
LOL, I know it's not the first time you've said it. And as usual you missed that the question is the point itself.
Believe me, nobody needs help in a mental duel with you ;)
However, as usual, you have avoided answering a direct question with a direct answer.
So, what was your service time again? Do try to answer the question this time.
Thanks for playing! :)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Respectfully disagree, Sandy. Not to put too fine a point on it, the draft was law. Those that dodged, those that aided and abetted the communist efforts, those that wilfully or unwittingly supported the NVA propaganda machine or abandoned their place in the ranks have by their actions defecated upon those that did their duty. Over 5 million Americans served in the Vietnam Era.. the 125,000 who deserted or dodged made their choice. They deserve no honor, no 'memorial' and certainly no respect whatsover.
Well... if it's a duty thing, than the law shouldn't make much difference one way or the other.
Imagine if there were a draft today. I suspect that the reaction would be as bad if not worse than it was during Vietnam.
Our government tells us that we are at war. The same "duty" that existed during Vietnam exists today and yet the Army can't make their enlistment quotas.
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...and that goes to a whole different subject; one I'd hugely enjoy discussing under another thread title than this one. ;)
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If you are between the ages of 18 and 34(?) and you have not joined the Army, you are aiding and abetting the insurgency in Iraq.
Duty calls. ;)
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Originally posted by Sandman
Not really... if you are between the ages of 18 and 30 and you have not joined the Army, you are aiding and abetting the insurgency in Iraq.
;)
LOL... maybe you need a bigger paddle on that ****-stirrer yer waving about... ;)
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there were draft riots in NYC during the civil war, every generation has it's cowards. good thing their numbers are small.
USMC vet
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Duty calls!
<--- USN Vet
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Originally posted by Chairboy
They're trying to figure out where best to put it. Some ideas:
*At about 150 feet down somewhere in a convenient ocean.
*Next to the statue commemorating the brave battle of that woman who sued McDonalds after she spilled coffee on herself.
*In Red Square, Moscow.
Send it to France!
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Va chier connard
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:D
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AAAAAARRRRRHHHHHH!!!! BEHEAD THE BASTIGES KILL KILL KILL... Let's see if that scares em.
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since the us government never declared war on North VietNam how can there be war or peace memorials?
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I've allways felt that conscription was slavery... well, it is by definition.
But then I think that FICA is theft, and i don't even watch TV. In fact the only TV I own has a 5 inch screen for use with my UAFVs. Oh and the only monuments I give a **** about are made by nature, and the constitution. I thought that what they did to that mountain in south dakota was disgusting. Taking a beatuiful mountain and turning it into a bust of four old men.. yeck! What a waste. So I guess by american standards that makes me quite insane.
If I moved back to the rocky mountains I'm pretty sure the ATF, or the FBI or some burea would come after me.
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Originally posted by Suave
In fact the only TV I own has a 5 inch screen for use with my UAFVs.
What sort of UAFVs?
g00b
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I don't know Hang, there seems to me to be some third ground here.
Is it ever possible that resisting a corrupt government's prosecution of a corrupt war would be a worthwhile, responsible and "american" thing to do?
...or does a draft negate personal opinions and values?
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Originally posted by g00b
What sort of UAFVs?
g00b
My RC tanks.
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Cowards run away ... men of honor and conviction stand and fight for their beliefs!
Muhammad Ali, and others like him stood their ground ... and won their fight.
I think that they should build the monument, right in the middle of Qubec. The French deserve it ... what's more they need something as a reminder to always surrender, lest they forget. :D:D:D
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Et pan un deuxième connard
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Oh this is a must have.
Put it right next to the Richard Simmons monument to Flaming Gayness.
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Originally posted by Furious
IIs it ever possible that resisting a corrupt government's prosecution of a corrupt war would be a worthwhile, responsible and "american" thing to do?
i agree, LBJ and Mcnamara were not only corrupt but also stupid, it took nixon to bomb the hell out of NV and end the war. too bad the democratic congress then cut off aid to the south and let the NV win 3 years later by default.
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You have to remember, this is the "ME!" generation wanting a monument.:mad:
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Originally posted by john9001
i agree, LBJ and Mcnamara were not only corrupt but also stupid, it took nixon to bomb the hell out of NV and end the war. too bad the democratic congress then cut off aid to the south and let the NV win 3 years later by default.
Not exactly... but if you want a good read this is quite imformative. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/series/pt_11.html)
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Originally posted by Sandman
It's easy to be smug when there's no fear of a draft.
It was even easier to just volunteer.:cool: