Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Revor on February 16, 2006, 06:29:03 AM
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Flip a coin
Heads I win the collison and get the kill, tails I crash and give the other guy the kill. This really frustrates me. I'm in a c205 and as I am bnz'ing on a guy I am ripping him up with my bullets he hits my wing and I go crashing down as he literally floats down just enough to get a kill off of me. I'm just really infuriated on the method they use with collisions. What's even more upsetting is that you hvae these new guys whom whenever you are outnumbered and they try to bnz you at the same time and ram you and when they get the kill they have the nerve to you. That right there is an insult and is enough to make me want to buy a plane ticket to their house and bash their head through the monitor.
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You where the one BnZin in this instance. He's low and slow, you have the ability to avoid and he doesn't. Next time, be more careful and you won't have to worry about the coin flip. And a big
for the threatening of bodily harm over a game.
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You dont happen to be the kid that was in that video, refered to in another thread (The one that punched a hole in the wall over a game?)
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Maybe one of these threads will help you understand why it works the way it does.
This one. (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169756&highlight=collision)
Maybe this one. (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168001&highlight=collision)
This covers a lot of ground. (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163519&highlight=collision)
A lot of reading about this very topic. I think it is pretty thoroughly explained on how and why it works the way it does.
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i know that it has been explained skuzz, but if possible, it would make it so much better if both planes take damage in the collision
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If you read the threads, you'll understand why the "both planes" solution is a BAD idea.
Short answer is that when you collide with me on your computer's front end, I might be 50 yards away on my front end due to delays built in to the internet.
With the both planes solution, I would take damamge when i did absolutely nothing wrong, never even came close to you. The whines would be incredible (even by 200 standards), and there would be a very good reason to complain.
The current system is by far the best. The only way the "both planes" idea would work is if we get everybody in one room on a big private LAN.
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Originally posted by Simaril
If you read the threads, you'll understand why the "both planes" solution is a BAD idea.
Short answer is that when you collide with me on your computer's front end, I might be 50 yards away on my front end due to delays built in to the internet.
With the both planes solution, I would take damamge when i did absolutely nothing wrong, never even came close to you. The whines would be incredible (even by 200 standards), and there woul dbe a very good reason to complain.
The current system is by far the best. The only way the "both planes" idea would work is if we get everybody in one room on a big private LAN.
yeah, and i was thinking of all that before i even posted. it just angers me that players on dialup get 100's of kills on me per tour just because i pay for a faster connection. drives me nuts sometimes. i've collided with people at 400 yrds before now, just on their 6 then i die, and i had perfect net stats with a ping of about 65. drives me bloody bonkers, and i just dont see why i should always lose the collision, especially when dweeb hotard come right at you, you dive to get out the way, and so they dive, and ram you. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
i know it probably wont see a change, but the increasing no. of rams is really putting me, and many other people i know, off the game
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Collisions do NOT depend on connection speed.
Think about real combat...the attacker doesnt know what the target is going to do, and realizes that he may do something stupid. The attacker gives the target leeway, considering all the places he COULD be when the attacker passes.
If you do the same thing, YOU WILL NOT COLLIDE. And, they will not collide with YOU.
It doesnt matter what your ping is. If you dont want to collide, do not get too close -- and you wont collide, regardless.
I have cable, faster than DSL. I collide maybe once evey other tour -- and when I collide, I know it was my fault because I cut the margin too close or had the "ears pinned back and hair on fire" target obsession.
Pretend this is your only plane, and you dont want to die (at least when it comes to collisions). The "problem" will go away, really.
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if i have a different connection speed to someoen else, their plane will appear in a different place than it does on my screen. in some cases the difference is SO big that i have collided with them 400 yrds away. im not saying it happens all the time, just a couple that are that bad, but still. and i know that for me to collide and take damage i should of actually hit him on my end, but i didnt
on his end, i collided with him, and not on mine, and i STILL took damage, and he goes on with nothing. thats why people are getting so angry with it, maybe you havent had anything like this happen yet. it is driving me insane
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if i had £10 for everytime simaril has explained the ram model to someone......
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well to me it seems like the people who try to explain it haven't seen the bugs in it. simaril is very wise, but i dont know whether you guys have seen it at these extremes or not. all im saying is that, at times, it does the damage to the wrong person, and it is spoiling the game for some people
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if you log on expecting HOs/Rams/vulching/cherrypicking/hording/lameness to be a feature, the game will excede your expectations within 10 mins.
if you log on with the same child-like glee as the first time you played, you will enjoy yourself.
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meh, i guess, but why would i want to pay money to expect rams and hos?
MA has lost all the fun factor for me, landgrabbing, war winning, and all the hoing stuff. i just fly in the AvA most of the time now, because im so tired of the MA attitude. i cant wait till ToD, i just dont know if its going to come before i lose all interest :(. the thing is, i love this game, and the community, and all the friendships i have made, but well...
i dunno, i guess i've just been having a stale period. but ToD will be a breath of fresh air for me
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Pooface, the thing to remember is that the entire game takes place on YOUR COMPUTER, not on the server.
Thnk about your separation in terms of TIME, not DISTANCE. With 2 planes travelling 300mph merging, every second the closure is over 800 feet. If your computer sits 0.5- 1 sec away from the server (that sends you updates), thats how much variation you can expect from your PC's view alone. If your netstauts fluctuates, falling behind a little then whizzing to catch up, you can see warps of more than that easily.
I hear you say 400 yards, but I bet its 1) rare and 2) less than that if you took a filmed snapshot instead of checking the icon in real time.
Try this, Poo -- think of driving defensively, being aware of other cars and preparing for what they COULD do. Apply that thinking toi the MA for a tour. I'd bet you'll see "AH2's" collision problem disappear.
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on his end, i collided with him, and not on mine, and i STILL took damage,
No way no how, it is not posible. That is not how the system works, so if you took damage somthing else happen to you.
In fact the change you ask for would do just what you are stating you dislike.
HiTech
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Originally posted by Pooface
on his end, i collided with him, and not on mine, and i STILL took damage,
You only take damage if you collide on your end............... jeez this is getting old.
EDIT oops HT already posted
connection speed has nothing......repeat nothing.... to do with it.
error between FE's is cumulative (your lag plus his lag) so differential error is the same
connection integrity (packet loss) may influence stuff but HT says not.
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it may have been lag, but it did happen. i didnt say that that happens a lot, only once at 400 yrds, and a few at 100, but it has happened i promise you. its not the games collision model but the way the collision model deals out damage. it is fine as it is, and i understand that changing it would cause more problems. but i just find it maddening you know? me losing a wing and him flying on with nothing wrong at all
there's nothing that can really be done to change it without it getting worse i understand, but oh god, the times i have logged off after 5 sorties of base defense, each one ending in under 60 secs, and each time dying of a ram.:furious :rofl :rofl
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"is enough to make me want to buy a plane ticket to their house and bash their head through the monitor."
There is medication to help you with that problem you've got.
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Originally posted by Pooface
...snip....
there's nothing that can really be done to change it without it getting worse i understand, but oh god, the times i have logged off after 5 sorties of base defense, each one ending in under 60 secs, and each time dying of a ram.:furious :rofl :rofl
If thats what happens to you Poo....(please dont take thsi wrong)....its not AH, its not the collision model -- its your flying.
Change your style, change your choices, adn the problem will go away.
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Originally posted by Westy
"is enough to make me want to buy a plane ticket to their house and bash their head through the monitor."
There is medication to help you with that problem you've got.
this is what I dont like either. I post an opinion and when someone insults me their posts dont get removed. However if I were to respond to him in the same manner i get see rule number 4. Why is that? I wasnt calling anyone out. I didnt make any insults towards anyone and if I were to insult him back in a defensive way my post gets removed. Why is it that way? I wasnt making fun of anyone he is. Why is his post still up here>
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No, really, this is not a troll :rolleyes:
Is it really that easy? WTG SuperBK for being first :lol
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I die what.... three times a tour due to ram?
WOW, *now* i know why my stats are so bad. Must be the ram model.
Seriously, if you die to Rams very frequently, try rethinking your fighting style.
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Originally posted by Revor
this is what I dont like either. I post an opinion and when someone insults me their posts dont get removed. However if I were to respond to him in the same manner i get see rule number 4. Why is that? I wasnt calling anyone out. I didnt make any insults towards anyone and if I were to insult him back in a defensive way my post gets removed. Why is it that way? I wasnt making fun of anyone he is. Why is his post still up here>
Revor, stop and think a second.
You posted that you wanted to samsh somebody's face into their monitor.
You did not get edited or squelched.
Why on Gods green earth would you expect a joks about meds to get cut?
If you honestly would expect his little jibe to get pulled, you need to give some thought to your own attitude and statements.
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You threaten violence...get called out for it...and consider it an insult?
Dude...fly with a little more distance, develop a little more patience, and try experimenting with NOT threatening to "bash someone's head"...you might even get somewhere.
Come on, already.
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Where's the insult? From your post above and others in the past it's as plain as day that you have deep seated emotional problems which cause your desire for violence. It was purely out of of concern that I offered my bit of advice.
And um, peace, love and happiness!
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Ahh yes.. naturally since there are all those AH sheep around, there must also be a ram model (http://animals.timduru.org/dirlist/sheep/BighornSheep_168021-Ram-Resting-OnRock.jpg) ??? ;)
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In American English, "beating a dead horse" is an idiom which is most often used as a retort used to make clear that a particular request or line of conversation is already foreclosed, mooted, or otherwise resolved. In Australian English and British English, the phrase is more usually rendered as "flogging a dead horse
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i dont die due to rams because of me, it usually happens when i've just upped trying to defend a base, and i have no speed and no e to dodge the several guys that try to vulch, i get of the way of the bullets, but they always go right into me, and it always seems that im the one on the bad end of the collision.
im not whining about rams, what im saying is that it seems unfair at times that both people dont get damaged. and i know it isnt going to work like that, but you know, i just get frustrated.
when i get rammed there is usually nothing i can do to stop it. its usually when im low and slow and 10 guys try to get me at once, sweeping in with too much speed and going right into me. and they never take damage because it appears on my screen first, and im down before they hit me on their screen. thats what i get annoyed about
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and im down before they hit me on their screen. thats what i get annoyed about
Once again you have a false perception of what is going on. What you describe is not posible. When you seem to say you understand (lag) it is obvious to me that you still do not.
It is not that you disapered before they got there (and that is why you think they didn't collide), it is that you disapeared (do to the collision) after they had already past you. What they saw is you comming towared them and they controled there plane to NOT COLLIDE WITH YOU . After you passed they saw you exploded.
You saw them comming toword you and controled your plane to COLLIDE WITH THEM and hence did.
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another thing to think about is this, did the other AC squeeze off some rounds right before u were at the collision point... I do it wall the time in a 38 or 110 (anything with good guns), if someone trys to HO me i'll aim right for the cockpit and squeeze until they blow up and fly right through there wreckage, works especially well with tracers off :)... not saying this is what actually did happen but it is possible. And if he hit you in the cockpit, it wouldn't take many rounds at all, possibly only 1, so it could be hard to tell. Run film next time and post it, your not going to get anything accomplished by just whining about it, post a film and then you can find out exactly what happened
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yeah i guess you're right iceman. and HT im sorry, im not trying to attack you or your game, because both are great;) im just trying to show my frustration, because i dont see many people die from colliding with me, but i see me 'colliding' with other people a lot. i dunno. i do understand how it works, but well... i dunno.
ty for the response anyway HT, it has cleared it up a little
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pooface, i've been in situations where it looked like I went right through the enemy AC, i look in my 6 view and they are still there and starting to pull an immelman then all of a sudden poof lol. I don't really understand the lag/ram issue all that much as I'm not very computer literate, and don't understand things like your FE and my FE, your screen this my screen that blah blah blah. I just always try and remember that if I'm in an airplane and I run into another plane then obviously something bad will generally happen to my plane lol so I try to avoid em, and if it does happen I try and not get upset... its just like a HO, if you end up in a HO position, 9 times out of ten, it could have been avoided. And I would be willing to bet that is the position most AC are in when they collide as well, it happens in knife fights quite a bit, but I think the majority of the complaints stem from a HO collision during the merge
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Originally posted by Iceman24
pooface, i've been in situations where it looked like I went right through the enemy AC, i look in my 6 view and they are still there and starting to pull an immelman then all of a sudden poof lol. I don't really understand the lag/ram issue all that much as I'm not very computer literate, and don't understand things like your FE and my FE, your screen this my screen that blah blah blah. I just always try and remember that if I'm in an airplane and I run into another plane then obviously something bad will generally happen to my plane lol so I try to avoid em, and if it does happen I try and not get upset... its just like a HO, if you end up in a HO position, 9 times out of ten, it could have been avoided. And I would be willing to bet that is the position most AC are in when they collide as well, it happens in knife fights quite a bit, but I think the majority of the complaints stem from a HO collision during the merge
yeah its usually on the merge for me, or in rolling scissors. unless the other guy has just clipped me in a place that i cant see, say on the underside of my tail with his wingtip, some of the collisions do seem really odd, but hey
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I think who dies last in the crash gets the kill even if you both lose a wing. As far as collisions go...who here can honestly say that when involved in a collision, they thought they were completely in the clear? Not I.
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if im killed while im flying slow in a furball, fair enough, i left myself open to faster opponents, but i dont really see that it's my fault to be rammed by someone else.
i think the annoying thing about the collision model is NOT the collision model, it is the inexperienced flyers that keep doing it, and when they do, and they collide with someone, it tells them they shot someone down, so they think they are doing something right.
if poor flying skills aren't punished in some way, in this case, dying when they ram someone, it's going to continue. the collision model is fine, but the way it affects things in the MA is a different story.
wow, i think i actually managed to put my thoughts into words properly for the first time in this thread lol. woot!
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skuzzy and ht should just write out a reply (hell, copy it from one of the thousand other threads about this) and just paste it every time someone doesn't take the time to actually understand why it works the way it does.
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Originally posted by Tarmac
skuzzy and ht should just write out a reply (hell, copy it from one of the thousand other threads about this) and just paste it every time someone doesn't take the time to actually understand why it works the way it does.
we understand how it works, but we dont understand why it has to work that way. and i guess its very hard to come with a solution for everyone, i mean, you cant make everyone happy. but at the moment, it is p*ssing quite a large number off.
if it was changed, it wouldnt work any better OK
and if we turn off enemy collisions, HOing will increase. oh god, why cant something ever be simple?????????? lmao:rofl
lol. but i just wish that all the new guys would stop ramming me!!!!!
surely someone understands my point of view?
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I just say "dammit"
Not much else ya can do.
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Originally posted by ridley1
I just say "dammit"
Not much else ya can do.
i used to do the same. but recently i've been saying dammit so often it is ruining the MA for me. and i haven't changed the way i fly, it IS an increase in people ramming
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Here's a quick "how it works" and, I think you'll see why it has to work that way.
Say two players, A & B, line up nose to nose at time 1 like in the diagram below:
(http://www.netaces.org/temp/time1.gif)
Now, being diehard daredevils, both players go screaming at each other in the proverbial game of chicken. Both planes are screaming towards each other. Player B loses his nerve and, at the very last second, dives underneath
(http://www.netaces.org/temp/time2b.gif)
Because of net lag, Player A does not see Player B dive away but decides to end this in a Ram. He doesn't change course, he does nothing to avoid the ram. At the exact same time Player B sees himself diving away on his (Player B's) computer, Player A sees this:
(http://www.netaces.org/temp/time2a.gif)
Now, Player A suffered a collision on his front end (read computer) and dies. Player B missed the collision on his front end and so survived. If you changed the way this worked, Player B would die even though he successfully maneuvered away from the collission. That would hardly be fair. Now, it is possible for the same thing to happen with Player B screaming in on Player A from behind. If Player B successfully maneuvers away from a collision on his front end, he survives. If Player A does not maneuver away from the collision, even if he never sees it, he suffers a crash. It's the only way to account for net lag. You maneuver against what you see on your front end. It's the same way someone shoots you when you know his nose is not pointing at you... on his front end, it is and he has registered a kill!
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Another great explanation. Does it explain why when you get hit from behind while you visually cleary avoided the colision, you get a message that you colided? no
Does it explain why you only lost a gun? no
Does it explain what else you could possibly do to avoid it? no
But hey, you got to post some cool pics
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Originally posted by ridley1
I just say "dammit"
Not much else ya can do.
When it happens to me, I use the good old surger honey ice tea.
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according to the game what constitutes as "tyring to maneuver away from the ram" Is the game taking into account stick movements or what ? does it look for stick movements right before the ram ? I'm not tryin to be a smart *** just tryin to understand how a computer or line of code can determine the intentions of an aircraft, how does it know that player A is trying to avoid, and how does it know that player B isn't ? Also, does more movement = tryin to avoid the ram more ? for example, 2 planes are headed for the HO, player A simply rolls his plane and goes a hair nose up looking at his monitor he figures thats plenty of room and that his flight path will pass right beside and over player B's plane, player B now pulls a hard break turn at the same time, but somehow player B is a newb and doesn't realize that he turned the wrong way and pulls his turn right into player A causing a collision, both players tried to avoid but it still happened, who rammed who ?
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Originally posted by hammer
Here's a quick "how it works" and, I think you'll see why it has to work that way.
Say two players, A & B, line up nose to nose at time 1 like in the diagram below:
(http://www.netaces.org/temp/time1.gif)
Now, being diehard daredevils, both players go screaming at each other in the proverbial game of chicken. Both planes are screaming towards each other. Player B loses his nerve and, at the very last second, dives underneath
(http://www.netaces.org/temp/time2b.gif)
Because of net lag, Player A does not see Player B dive away but decides to end this in a Ram. He doesn't change course, he does nothing to avoid the ram. At the exact same time Player B sees himself diving away on his (Player B's) computer, Player A sees this:
(http://www.netaces.org/temp/time2a.gif)
Now, Player A suffered a collision on his front end (read computer) and dies. Player B missed the collision on his front end and so survived. If you changed the way this worked, Player B would die even though he successfully maneuvered away from the collission. That would hardly be fair. Now, it is possible for the same thing to happen with Player B screaming in on Player A from behind. If Player B successfully maneuvers away from a collision on his front end, he survives. If Player A does not maneuver away from the collision, even if he never sees it, he suffers a crash. It's the only way to account for net lag. You maneuver against what you see on your front end. It's the same way someone shoots you when you know his nose is not pointing at you... on his front end, it is and he has registered a kill!
ty hammer, very insightful, but, i know the whole front end thing. i have 'collided' with guys that on my front end are at the extremes 100yrs away, and once at 400 yrds. i haven't hit them on my FE, so it must be that they hit me on their front end right?? well then how come im the one that dies, yet he flies on.
and also, the damage that some guys take after colliding is just plain silly. like other people have said before, getting a fuel leak from a collision, and having no other damage is a little ridiculous. there needs to be a fixed amount of damage that a person receives when they collide. getting a fuel leak or a radiator/engine oil out from ramming into several tons of metal, at a combined speed of sometimes 800mph, is, without exception, stupid
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Pooface,
have you stopped to consider that they may ALSO be shooting at you before you get the collision.
If you do not see any collision and get the message about the collision, it means that the collision occured at the other guys FE. If you got damage in such situation, it is from the other guy's guns.
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it could have been in one or two situations, but other times, like in rolling scissors, im just about to shoot them! and there isnt anyone with icon range of me, no flak, nothing
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Originally posted by Pooface
... i have 'collided' with guys that on my front end are at the extremes 100yrs away, and once at 400 yrds. i haven't hit them on my FE, so it must be that they hit me on their front end right?? well then how come im the one that dies, yet he flies on.
All I can tell you is what HiTech has said over and over... it is not possible for you to collide with someone who appears 400 yds away on your front end. I don't write coad, but I do occassionally stay at a Holiday Inn Express ;) and the mechanics of what he explains are very easy to understand. The only thing I can think of is maybe you experienced some type of warp. If your computer recieves a position update that places the other plane on top of your plane, you have collided. It still doesn't mean his front end has the same information so he may survive.
Originally posted by Pooface
and also, the damage that some guys take after colliding is just plain silly. like other people have said before, getting a fuel leak from a collision, and having no other damage is a little ridiculous. there needs to be a fixed amount of damage that a person receives when they collide. getting a fuel leak or a radiator/engine oil out from ramming into several tons of metal, at a combined speed of sometimes 800mph, is, without exception, stupid
Different subject but it tells me that which part of each plane touch is modelled... nothing says every collision is fuselage to fuselage. A wing tip might grab the top of a wing and disable a gun or rip open a fuel tank. I'll bet there are pictures out there of planes that "touched" in the air and did various amounts of damage to each other with one or even both surviving.
Originally posted by dedalos
Another great explanation. Does it explain why when you get hit from behind while you visually cleary avoided the colision, you get a message that you colided? no
Are you sure you avoided it?
Originally posted by dedalos
Does it explain why you only lost a gun? no
See explanation above.
Originally posted by dedalos
Does it explain what else you could possibly do to avoid it? no
Actually it does.... don't collide on your front end. If that means don't come screaming down at 600mph and wait until d100 to take a shot, don't do it ( <-- my personal most common cause of collision!). If it means start your evasive maneuver when a con is an extra 300 or 500 out from your normal start distance, do it.
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Originally posted by Iceman24
according to the game what constitutes as "tyring to maneuver away from the ram" Is the game taking into account stick movements or what ?
It's not that you are trying, you must successfully maneuver away. Again, it is according to what you see on your computer. If you avoid it on your computer, you avoid it.
Originally posted by Iceman24
just tryin to understand how a computer or line of code can determine the intentions of an aircraft, how does it know that player A is trying to avoid, and how does it know that player B isn't ?
Even if player B tried to maneuver, say after it was too late to get out of the way but before the ram occurred, he would still suffer a collision.
Originally posted by Iceman24
Also, does more movement = tryin to avoid the ram more ? for example, 2 planes are headed for the HO, player A simply rolls his plane and goes a hair nose up looking at his monitor he figures thats plenty of room and that his flight path will pass right beside and over player B's plane, player B now pulls a hard break turn at the same time, but somehow player B is a newb and doesn't realize that he turned the wrong way and pulls his turn right into player A causing a collision, both players tried to avoid but it still happened, who rammed who ?
If both computers see the collision, both planes will suffer damage. It doesn't really matter "who rammed who"... the consequences are from the contact and contact is determined by your computer.
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Its simple folks, there IS no "Ram".
Only you can cause or prevent collisions.
They can't change the model, any way they changed it would have huge negitive inpacts on gameplay.
All they can do is try to teach people not to fly so close. And if they insist, they take the damage for it.
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Lemme try a different tack.
There are soem players who see a major problem with collisions. It drives them nuts.
Playing the same game, running the exact same coad, with the same (on average) connections to the exact same server, many others have simply no problem at all. Among those are people (like me) who used to have lots of collisions, then figured out what they were doing wrong -- changed their flying -- and stopped having collisions despite using the same computers and connections as when they did have collision problems.
BY SIMPLE DEDUCTION, THE PROBLEM IS LESS LIKELY TO BE THE CODE AND MORE LIKELY TO BE THE PLAYERS.
Since there are substantial numbers of players who dont have the collision problems that freak you out, the problem isnt on HT's end. If it was HT's fault, then each of us would have the same frustrations and same collisions.
Even if you dont think the solution is fair, the fact is that avoiding the proximity envelope works. It is part of the game. You've adapted to the flight models, the gunnery models, and the damage models; you've learned how to succeed in the AH2 world. Just learn this one more thing.
I know you keep referring to aberrations -- like the dying when 400 away and you didnt come close, the taking damage when the other guys hit you. I suspect your perceptions are incorrect, that in the frustration of the moment you aren't seeing the whole situation. If you're sure you're right, film it and show us....but I'll bet those films are more likely to show that you hit when you didnt think you did, or that you bumped into a second con you didnt realize was there, that you hit fragments of a plane someone else killed, or that you were killed by gunnery.
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The whole lag thing is one that you need to understand for sim type ACM.
No one sees us at any moment in time where we see our selves. Effectively everyone else sees us some distance behind our momentary position. Equally we see them some distance behind their momentary position.
Trying to get you head round this can be difficult.
I do it this way.
Behind my plane I tow a target..........
everyone else sees only this target......
I only see every one elses target........
I can shoot down their targets, I can collide with their targets
The length of the tow rope is lag...........its the total lag between two FE's so it varies slightly with connection speeds. It also gets longer with aircraft speed. So lets think of it as an elastic rope
For acm you have to realise that your opponent is firing or manouvering onto the target you are towing. It (the target) manouvres slightly later than you do.
Also what you see is his target manouvering slightly later than he did.
You see this classically when two ac merge from a tight hi speed turn nose to nose and one gets a snap shot. To the victim the victor is firng at a point behind the victims plane and yet scores hits........ He hit the target.
By understanding the "elastic tow rope effect" you begin to see loads of ramifications.
1) in a double collision both planes have to hit both targets...... thats rare.
2) its almost impossible to be rammed from your pure 6 position.......
3)Close quarter rolling scissors will offer a high probability of collision, particularly when mixed with snap rolls.
4)Your opponent does not need to get a lead shot on your position he is trying to hit your target............
5)Your opponent properly executing a high speed lead turn will seem to do the impossible by apparantly turning 180 behind you without losing any guns distance.
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The towed target is an EXCELLENT image...thanks for posting it!!!
Thats just kind of the quick and dirty metaphor that works well on 200.
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Originally posted by hammer
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Originally posted by dedalos
Another great explanation. Does it explain why when you get hit from behind while you visually cleary avoided the colision, you get a message that you colided? no
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Are you sure you avoided it?
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Originally posted by dedalos
Does it explain why you only lost a gun? no
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See explanation above.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Does it explain what else you could possibly do to avoid it? no
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Actually it does.... don't collide on your front end. If that means don't come screaming down at 600mph and wait until d100 to take a shot, don't do it ( <-- my personal most common cause of collision!). If it means start your evasive maneuver when a con is an extra 300 or 500 out from your normal start distance, do it.
So, your explanation is that I am stupid, can really tell if the guy flew by and now is flying in a different direction, I am also too stupid to check my damage, and the way to avoid someone hitting me from behind after I clearly avoided the colision on my end, is to not come in at 600mph.
Excelent!!!!! The training corps should be very proud to have you.
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Originally posted by dedalos
So, your explanation is that I am stupid, can really tell if the guy flew by and now is flying in a different direction
Not calling anybody stupid at all. All I was asking is if you were sure not a wing tip touched you at all? Planes moving at a few hundred miles per hour get distance between them pretty quickly. 100 mph moves a plane about 50 yds in 1 sec. A lot of ground gets covered very quickly by an object with a wingspan of 30 - 40 feet. There's a pretty good possibility that two objects with essentialy a diameter of 40 feet moving at 450 ft / sec (300 mph) could have some parts touch in catastrophic or non-catasrophic ways. All the fact that the other plane is now flying a different direction shows is that one or both of you were maneuvering.
Originally posted by dedalos
I am also too stupid to check my damage
Actually what I said in the explanation I referenced was this: "it tells me that which part of each plane touch is modelled... nothing says every collision is fuselage to fuselage. A wing tip might grab the top of a wing and disable a gun or rip open a fuel tank. I'll bet there are pictures out there of planes that "touched" in the air and did various amounts of damage to each other with one or even both surviving." How that implies you don't know how to check damage is beyond me.
Originally posted by dedalos
and the way to avoid someone hitting me from behind after I clearly avoided the colision on my end, is to not come in at 600mph
Suggest you re-read what I wrote the first time. Your interpretation is a little off.
Again, the bottom line is what HiTech has stated over and over. The code is written so you only suffer from collisions occurring on your front end. If you believe that is not what is happening, film it and send it in. If there's a bug with the collision model, I have no doubt they would work hard to identify and fix it. To do that, though, they need some hard data to work with.
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hammer:
Actually it does.... don't collide on your front end. If that means don't come screaming down at 600mph and wait until d100 to take a shot, don't do it ( <-- my personal most common cause of collision!). If it means start your evasive maneuver when a con is an extra 300 or 500 out from your normal start distance, do it.
There, I read it again. Next time I'll ask the guy that dives in while I am in a fight to give me a warning when he is 1.5K out so I can start my evasive maneuver earlyer. It is kind of pointless to try an reason with you though right? You already know what happened, why I did not understand what happened, and what I did wrong, :lol
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Tilt, nice post, that helped me to understand a bit more of about the issue, I'm more a visual learner and your description on the "lag tow" was excellent. thanks buddy
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Actually, that's me screaming in at warp speed and not pulling out early enough. I don't do it often, but enough to annoy me when I do.
"You already know what happened" - nope, that's why I suggested film
"why I did not understand what happened" - nope, it's been explained several times. It's more a matter of acceptance than understanding.
"and what I did wrong" - never said anything wrong was done.
The collision issue is one of code and net lag. Tilt's example of pulling a target is an excellent one. What you see on your computer is the target being pulled by the other guy, not where the other guy is at on his computer. What he sees is your target. As long as he doesn't touch the target you are pulling, no collision for him. As long as you don't touch the target he is pulling (and the target he is pulling doesn't touch you), no collision for you.
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Tilt: I like the tow metaphor also. Even lets you very easly visulize one way collisions.
HiTech
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I had a first the other night. I had the same guy in a Spitfire 16 ram my 38G 3 times in the same flight! I got the #$*^rammed you message every time. I ended up going down the third time but he kept right on driving.
I had a good laugh at that one. He'd come in head on every time and I'd try and duck under him but he'd plow right into me. I kinda figured we both should have been down after the first collision.
Good fun though, and I got a brand new 38G right away anyway :)
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Originally posted by hitech
Tilt: I like the tow metaphor also. Even lets you very easly visulize one way collisions.
HiTech
Just to understand this better. When towing some one, if you don't see a colision on the screen then it did not happen for you. In his FE however, he might/or not have colided with you and if he did he is the only one that gets the damage. Is this right?
If yes, is it also true that if I dont see a colision on my screen, then the only one that could register a colision and take damage would be the other guy.
Or am I still confused?
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dedalos: Think of it you each need to collide with the other guys towed target. And the target is how you see the other guy, and you never see the plane towing the target.
f yes, is it also true that if I dont see a colision on my screen, then the only one that could register a colision and take damage would be the other guy.
Correct except change the word "See and on screen" To my computer detects.
HiTech