Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Zaphod on February 17, 2006, 12:40:29 AM
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I saw something somewhere on this board regarding lcd monitors. However I'm not sure it was up to date. I'm wanting a new monitor and am curious about lcds.
Currently I have a ViewSonic 19" flatscreen CRT upon which I run the game at 1280 X 1024. I'm having to lean way in to see the screen and would like to move to a larger viewable image.
1. Are LCD's as good as CRT's for gaming?
2. If so what spec.s should I be looking for? (contrast, delay or whatever)
3. Is a 19" LCD bigger than a 19" CRT (I have heard the viewable image is bigger on same size LCD vs CRT) or are they so similar so as to be better to move to say a 20 or 21"
4. Assuming an LCD is a valid option....what are some good brands, makes, models etc. ?
5. Can I use a widescreen LCD or does it have to be normal dimensions?
Zaphod
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Skuzzy or Pyro (can't recall) has pointed out that any CRT will always be better than any LCD for things like: blacks, darkness thereof, speed of refresh (LCDs sometimes "smear" the pixels as they move -- mine does) and for the ability to change resolution modes. There might have been other points, too.
With that said, LCDs work fine, too. Some claim if you get a refresh speed of 0.16ms or less then you won't get this "smearing". Mine has smeaing, being 0.26ms or some such. I got used to it, chances are most do.
So basically there's a couple of areas you want to look at, and once you decide what you want, you can say "Hrm.. maybe a CRT would be better" or "Maybe I'll get an LCD".
What are you looking for? That might help folks give you tips.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Skuzzy or Pyro (can't recall) has pointed out that any CRT will always be better than any LCD for things like: blacks, darkness thereof, speed of refresh (LCDs sometimes "smear" the pixels as they move -- mine does) and for the ability to change resolution modes. There might have been other points, too.
With that said, LCDs work fine, too. Some claim if you get a refresh speed of 0.16ms or less then you won't get this "smearing". Mine has smeaing, being 0.26ms or some such. I got used to it, chances are most do.
So basically there's a couple of areas you want to look at, and once you decide what you want, you can say "Hrm.. maybe a CRT would be better" or "Maybe I'll get an LCD".
What are you looking for? That might help folks give you tips.
Well....I need a bigger monitor so I have bigger planes on said monitor is really the bottom line I guess. I want the monitor for gaming...specifically AH2. I guess this is why I was wondering if a 19" LCD gives a bigger viewable image than a 19" CRT. I'm having a hard time finding a 21" CRT so I was thinking maybe a LCD would be the way to go (19 or bigger?)
Zap
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I agree about the superior quality of CRT. However, they are really dead technology now. Soon you won't be able to get one. I bought a 20" NEC Multisync 2070NX and I'm very happy with it. You soon forget about any doubts.
I think we have to get used to LCD's for gaming now and get over it.
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Don't forget that, if you're looking for a larger gaming surface to view, some video cards have TV-OUT capabilities, and an S-Video cable from the back of your PC to the back of your TV can give you 50" of gaming goodness.
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Only problem with TV-out is that you are 'limited' to max 60hz refresh rate.
Even the fastest LCD will still give some smearing.
Would really like to try it on a plasma screen.
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6 years ago in the computer store I worked at we had a system setup to play Tribes on with a then kicking 42" Plasma. Of course the system was sitting about 15 feet away from the monitor/TV. I think that system in its last incarnation that I built was a P3 600 with 768MB RAM and a 2 9GB 10k rpm SCSI Cheetah drives with an Aureal A3D sound card, Diamond Monster II 12MB card (x 2 in SLi mode) with a Viper V550 in the AGP slot. All running on an ASUS P2B with the 440BX chipset with Windows 98 SE as its OS.
That muthersucker was flipping huge and talk about vertigo even from 15+ feet away you would get woozy as all get out playing on it.
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Look at the Viewsonic VA912B, 19" LCD display. 8 millisecond response time. Comes with DVI cable too. I bought one for my wife (I use a 20.1" Viewsonic VP2030B LCD).
The VA912B can be bought from Provantage.com for $275 plus shipping (between $15 and $20). This is an excellent monitor/display for a very good price. Plug and Play set-up... just remember to set your resolution at 1280x1024 if it's not already.
And yeah, a 19" LCD does have a slightly larger viewable area than a 19" CRT.
My regards,
Widewing
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Love my Viewsonic vx924 19" LCD.
whels
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Originally posted by Krusty
Don't forget that, if you're looking for a larger gaming surface to view, some video cards have TV-OUT capabilities, and an S-Video cable from the back of your PC to the back of your TV can give you 50" of gaming goodness.
S-Video??? YUUUUUKKKKK....!
I connect via DVI--->HDMI @ 1920x1080p :D
Originally posted by Kev367th
Only problem with TV-out is that you are 'limited' to max 60hz refresh rate.
Even the fastest LCD will still give some smearing.
Would really like to try it on a plasma screen.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with a 60hz refresh rate on a TV display. Does your TV's refresh rate bother your eyes? My friends are amazed at the stunning visuals of AH on my 58" DLP.
Also, there is ZERO detectable smearing with DLP wobulation technology. They don't actually have a response time.
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samsung 930 or 940 both 19 inch
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CRT still today will give you the best picture quality even in Televisions...
currently Plasma holds an edge in most cases over LCD for viewing, although LCD is steadily closing the gap. Each technology has it's advantages and disadvantages... I would never want to use a plasma for a computer monitor because I would be afraid of burn in. DLP is a fine techonology as well... I would just get annoyed at the thought of having to spend $400+ to replace the lamp every so often.
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Originally posted by Soulyss
CRT still today will give you the best picture quality even in Televisions...
I can't really argue that in most cases but a LOT of AVS forum members have dumped their old technology for the new higher res 1080p displays. CRT RP is the worst technology for Burn-In, weigh 600 lbs and take up half the room. DLP does not suffer from Burn-In. Mine is 19" deep and weghs 125 lbs.
Originally posted by Soulyss DLP is a fine techonology as well... I would just get annoyed at the thought of having to spend $400+ to replace the lamp every so often.
My bulb is $349 and I have a 3 year warranty. New guns for a CRT are bout $2000. As you said, all technology has good and bad points - there is no perfect display but I love mine and it will accept the new HD DVD/Bluray and my puter over HDMI at 1080p.
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Originally posted by DAVENRINO
S-Video??? YUUUUUKKKKK....!
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with a 60hz refresh rate on a TV display. Does your TV's refresh rate bother your eyes? My friends are amazed at the stunning visuals of AH on my 58" DLP.
Wasn't saying there was sometihng wrong with 60Hz, I just prefer being albe to play at 85Hz or higher depending on resolution. In fact I believe this holds true for the majority of gamers).
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New Samsung 960?
Think it has a 2 mls response time????
Do a look up!!!
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It's good if your lamp has a 3 year warrantee... make sure you don't have a minimum hour limit as well.. I've seen things like 1 year or 300 hours (to pick a number out of the air) whichever comes first. I still think a 720P CRT will look better than a "1080p", especially a DLP since there is not a true 1080 DLP on the market that I have seen. Many will advertise that spec but they achieve it by pixel-shifting or "wobulation". I do not think that Texas Instruments has developed a chip with 1080 lines of mirrors. Course with CRT's you get the size, weight and burn-in issues as have been mentioned.
I think 1080p plasma's and LCD's are starting to show up. But without a true source at that resolution you won't get the most out of them, they will have to upscale the source image (which should look good still) just not the most the TV has to offer.
One thing to be careful of with those 1080P DLP's check with the manufacturer there is at least a chance they will NOT be able to display a true 1080P source signal (when they become available)
If I had my choice I'd dump my old CRT in a heartbeat and get a 50-55" Fujitsu plasma. :)
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Originally posted by FOGOLD
I agree about the superior quality of CRT. However, they are really dead technology now. Soon you won't be able to get one. I bought a 20" NEC Multisync 2070NX and I'm very happy with it. You soon forget about any doubts.
I think we have to get used to LCD's for gaming now and get over it.
Unfortunately it is true. CRT's are going away, and going away very quickly. When mine dies, it will end my having a computer at home. I have yet to find an LCD which will live up to my expectations. I hate paying for compromised hardware.
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Skuzzy if you think that way, why not buy a CRT or two to stock now that they're dirt cheap?
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Actually, I have a backup CRT already. When I saw this coming, I bought another NEC FP1375 monitor. FP series monitors are very hard to find now, if you can find them at all, and were probably (arguably, maybe) the best monitors you could get.
Hopefully, there will be a new technology which will be as good as CRT's were when I get through the last monitor.
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Well that sucks. I thought something was strange at Best Buy the other day when I realised they had *1* CRT monitor... a cheesy looking 17" with subpar specs. I still have my old 17" laying around that gets used at lan parties, and my trusty Viewsonic 19". Gotta find a guy who came up with the "superbright" button for gaming modes. He deserves a case of beer.
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Originally posted by Soulyss
It's good if your lamp has a 3 year warrantee... make sure you don't have a minimum hour limit as well.. I've seen things like 1 year or 300 hours (to pick a number out of the air) whichever comes first.
It is through Repairmaster with no limit on hours.
Originally posted by Soulyss
I still think a 720P CRT will look better than a "1080p", especially a DLP since there is not a true 1080 DLP on the market that I have seen. Many will advertise that spec but they achieve it by pixel-shifting or "wobulation". I do not think that Texas Instruments has developed a chip with 1080 lines of mirrors.
Soulyss,
You are pretty well informed but I am gusessing that you have never actually seen one of the new 1080p DLPs with a 1080p source or even HD for that matter. My set has only been available since late Sept. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I have never seen ANYTHING that looks any better than my display. You are absolutely correct about the wobulation, but it works very well and is the reason why there are no motion artifacts since half the pixels are always lit at any given time.
Originally posted by Soulyss
I think 1080p plasma's and LCD's are starting to show up. But without a true source at that resolution you won't get the most out of them, they will have to upscale the source image (which should look good still) just not the most the TV has to offer.
You already have a true 1080p source - your computer. The WMV 1080p format looks Awesome on my set. The Bluryay/HD DVD 1080p source is just around the corner. Meanwhile, my puter upscales DVD's to 1080p so the tv doesn't have to.
Originally posted by Soulyss
One thing to be careful of with those 1080P DLP's check with the manufacturer there is at least a chance they will NOT be able to display a true 1080P source signal (when they become available)
You are again correct, my HP is currently the only Rear Projection set that accepts 1080p through the HDMI port. This will be important for Bluray/ HD DVD which will only be at max quality through HDMI. I am sure the 2006 models will all accept 1080p through HDMI.
Originally posted by Soulyss
If I had my choice I'd dump my old CRT in a heartbeat and get a 50-55" Fujitsu plasma. :)
That brings up the final consideration - bang for buck. How much does that plasma cost? My 58" set was less then $4k delivered to my home in Hawaii with a five year extented warranty. Of course, with plasma you still have the burn-in and motion artifact issues and the fading brightness issue with no replaceable lamp.
There isn't a perfect technology but I love my HP. :D
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A little OT, but DAVENRINO, is all the equipment in your setup tagged "HD Ready" or HDCP compliant? Probably not a good question to ask, as it cannot be as HDCP just got revised again this last month.
No video cards on the marker marked 'HDCP' compliant really are. There is a bit of screaming starting up about it. It really will not hit the fan until DluRay/HD DVD's hit the streets and everyone finds out they cannot play them without an upgraded (read, replacing various pieces of equipment in the chain needed to play the media).
Even your monitor has to be 'HDCP' compliant, which will be marked 'HD Ready' when they become available.
I only bring it up as you mentioned the HD formats and seem excited about the prospect of playing them on your system. Right now, there is no equipment on the market which could play HD DVD's out of the box, due to recent HDCP changes, which have delayed the release of BluRay and HD formats, again.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
A little OT, but DAVENRINO, is all the equipment in your setup tagged "HD Ready" or HDCP compliant? Probably not a good question to ask, as it cannot be as HDCP just got revised again this last month.
Sorry bout getting OT. My HP is currently HD ready and HDCP Compliant as it succesfully connects to my HD DVR through HDMI. Connecting the same DVR to my 50" Panny through DVI produced an HDCP non-compliance message and no picture.
Originally posted by Skuzzy
No video cards on the marker marked 'HDCP' compliant really are. There is a bit of screaming starting up about it. It really will not hit the fan until DluRay/HD DVD's hit the streets and everyone finds out they cannot play them without an upgraded (read, replacing various pieces of equipment in the chain needed to play the media).
Here is a good article on the video card issue-
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_nvidia_hdcp_support/
Originally posted by Skuzzy
I only bring it up as you mentioned the HD formats and seem excited about the prospect of playing them on your system. Right now, there is no equipment on the market which could play HD DVD's out of the box, due to recent HDCP changes, which have delayed the release of BluRay and HD formats, again.
I don't know anyone who knows for sure, but we are hoping the new HDMI 1.3 will be backwards compatible. Do you have confirmation that it won't be?
This is a post from the AVS Forum. Even if my set is not compliant with the new HDCP spec, I will still be satisfied with the near HD quality from my computer outputting 1080p or from my standalone DVD player which upconverts to 1080i through HDMI allowing the HP to deinterlace to 1080p.
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QUOTE: Originally Posted by lexx Well it works for me. I have an SA8300HD cable box that sends the HDCP along the HDMI cable to my TV. The TV works with video and sound connected to my HDMI1 input, so it would seem the 6580 is HDCP compliant. If you go deep into the SA8300 setup and settings, it clearly details the HDCP deployment. "We know we're OK w/current implementations of HDMI/HDCP. However, we've also seen some "twitchy" connectivity w/some STBs with the current versions of HDMI/HDCP in place now. What Halobox is likely referring to is what's coming in the new 1080p players and the upcoming HDMI 1.3 spec, etc. Is everything they are doing in those implementations going to be backwards compatible w/what HP put into place last year when our sets were manufactured? Backwards compatibility is usually a priority in these areas, but since HP was just about the only manuf. with a 1080p/HDMI set last year, and most manuf. just getting into 1080p/HDMI this year, what is the risk that HP jumped "too soon?" My expectation is that we'll be OK, that backwards compatibility will be there, but we'll need to have HD DVD and Blu Ray players in hand to be sure." END QUOTE
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It is a crap shoot right now. No one from either the HD or BluRay camp has said one way or the other. I know the new HDCP spec caused delays in HD/BluRay releases until later this year.
Until they start shipping players, my best guess/speculation is there is no gaurantee of backward compatibility. They have no reason as they have never been shipped. Hopefully that is not the case, but in reading the HDCP stuff, they do not appear to be that concerned with backwards compatibility.
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All this jacking off with DRM schemes is alienating customers like plague. And they wonder why sales are getting low gee! :huh
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You think this is bad Ripley, wait until you see MS Vista. DRM is taken to new highs.
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I would so much like to see I'll never work with vista but since I work on corporate IT sector.. :cry
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Oh yeah, you're screwed. I cannot figure out why the IT sector (and no offense to those stuck in that task) still has any credibility left. They buy into all the marketing speil from MS every time MS releases a new OS.
Remember how MS touted how secure XP was when they released it? Now they are saying Vista will be even more secure? While they are still releasing security updates for XP.
Or how about how MS has provided applications private/hidden registry entries so they can auto-start and prevent the typical user from stopping them? Vista appears to have more entries which cannot be altered with the registry editor, and some which will not even show up in the registry editor. Wait until the spyware/malware kiddies get a hold of those.
I feel for ya Ripley, or anyone stuck in the corporate IT sector.
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Mr Ripley I guess like me you have one of those (http://www.gdnctr.com/noose2.jpg) around your neck ?
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I bought a viewsonic CRT A91f+ at comp USA for US$249.00 with a US$50.00 rebate. I'm going to the store in the next town to see if they had another this unit was mfg'd in April 2004.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Oh yeah, you're screwed. I cannot figure out why the IT sector (and no offense to those stuck in that task) still has any credibility left. They buy into all the marketing speil from MS every time MS releases a new OS.
Remember how MS touted how secure XP was when they released it? Now they are saying Vista will be even more secure? While they are still releasing security updates for XP.
Or how about how MS has provided applications private/hidden registry entries so they can auto-start and prevent the typical user from stopping them? Vista appears to have more entries which cannot be altered with the registry editor, and some which will not even show up in the registry editor. Wait until the spyware/malware kiddies get a hold of those.
I feel for ya Ripley, or anyone stuck in the corporate IT sector.
Well if get get my way at work Vista will NEVER rear its ugly head there.
At the moment every new laptop/desktop that comes in has XP on it, and the first thing I do is to blow it away and put Win 2000 on it.
Luckily enough the boss usually relies on my decision on I.T./network stuff so hoping to keep it a "Vista Free" zone. :) .
Of course once MS stops supporting Windows 2000 (happen eventually) then who knows what.
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After reading all this about monitors and the link for the HD/Non-HD Graphics cards, my head is spinning.... (I can build a Cellular system from ground up but computers confuse me...DOH)
Anyway, getting ready to buy a few things this year for the computer I want to have eventually, and have a few questions...
1. What is a good 19" monitor that will work with Vista, HD, all the stuff mentioned above, and runs under/around $400 or so? Was looking at the VX924 but now not sure. What is a good response time for AH. Is 8 ms good, or is 2-3 ms that much better?
2. For a second item this year, should a better Graphics card wait until they come out with the proper compliance for the future? Trying to decide if the 2nd item this year will be a better Graphics card (now running Radeon 9700 SE now) or memory (now have 512 Meg & thinking of going to 2 Gig).
What will get me the biggest bang for the buck right away and still be useable 3-5 years from now?
All information and help appreciated.
Fireof59
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I recently purchased a 19" "HANNS-G" LCD monitor... 8ms refresh rate.
I was a little skeptical about the refresh "smearing" at first, because my only other LCD experience was from OLD laptops... smear-city
I can honestly say I am nothing short of impressed. The crystal clear graphics (after upgrading from a 17" crt) more than makes up for the little amount of smear I get.
Actually, the only time i notice smearing is if I'm zoomed way in the turret of a tank, and scroll side to side quickly. Even that took less than a week to get used to. My game skills have improved dramatically (well... as much as possible.. been here about a year and still consider myself a noobie haha)
I also got a nice pair of surround sound USB headphones with mic... those impressed the heck out of me too. I can actually hear where things are around me.. Greatly improved my SA!
Just remember... with LCD's.. the lower refresh rate, the better. I don't think a 16ms would cut it, but the 8ms works fine for me. I've seen 2ms out there, but they tend to be a lot more expensive.
tigerdirect.com... monitor was $189 after $80 rebate... headset was $64
CRT measurements are total tube diagonal measurement, but some of the tube is buried behind the case because it gets distorted at the edges. LCD measurements are total viewable because you see the entire surface, therefore a 19" crt monitor may only give you a 17.5 to 18" viewable surface.
Good luck!
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Unfortunately it is true. CRT's are going away, and going away very quickly. When mine dies, it will end my having a computer at home. I have yet to find an LCD which will live up to my expectations. I hate paying for compromised hardware.
Aw gee Skuzzy, that's way over the top. Lighten up:rofl I would play AH on anything!
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
You think this is bad Ripley, wait until you see MS Vista. DRM is taken to new highs.
It is your duty then to get AH onto Linux. It is the duty of all moral, upstanding sofware dev. companies to do their part in combating the DRM menace.
To the topic at hand:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824009061
24 inches of fast responce game goodness. For under $1000. Will be my next computer stuff purchase.
I'm quite happy with my 19" Acer 1914 LCD. Admitedly it's not as nice as a quality monitor, but it's better than an average one and is much nicer on the eyes for long term usage.
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Need a bigger monitor? Try overstock.com! Rob53 and I got 22" rebuilt Sony CRTs guaranteed, for 250 dollars and free shipping.
I think the free shipping is no longer in effect....but you can check.
By the way I am very pleased with mine. Had it 14 months and it is great!
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There seem to be plenty of CRT's available to buy currently (buy.com, various places listed on pricewatch.com, etc.). I much prefer CRT's.
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I am really picky about my CRT. Sure, there are CRT's about, but most (read 99.9%) are junk to me. I am spoiled rotten at looking at the pro series of CRT's NEC had and I have no found another CRT I would say I liked since then.
And there is not an LCD on the market which has proper color rendention.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I am really picky about my CRT. Sure, there are CRT's about, but most (read 99.9%) are junk to me. I am spoiled rotten at looking at the pro series of CRT's NEC had and I have no found another CRT I would say I liked since then.
And there is not an LCD on the market which has proper color rendention.
Yeap, nothing available. I've found few refurbs which I don't care for.
I'm looking into NEC multisync LCDs with Spectraview calibration, but the price is, hmmm, much to think about.
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wow,i play on a gateway 15 inch monitor thats 5 years old.
I gotta get with the times.