Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: skernsk on February 19, 2006, 12:10:50 AM
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1570 - allied
650 - axis
No rules were broken, but some serious loop holes were used. Some may say abused, others may say utilized, but it is a mute point. What is important is it does not happen again. The job of CM’s aside from designing events is to make them fun and equitable for all involved. Consequently the rules will be changed to avoid this loop hole in the future.
I wrote in the orders that the Allied side must use 4 of the 5 planes available. And they did use 4 planes. I don't like how they did it - but I cannot do anything about it.
I feel what has existed up to now was a sort of 'Gentlemen's Agreement' that as a Frame CO you would do your best to gain the victory while staying within the confines of the rules. The Allied side went well into the Grey area but looking at it from the rules as I laid out - they did nothing wrong.
I do not want to see the event get caught up in rules. But I think Frame CO's better hire lawyers when they get their objectives as you kind of forced our hands there.
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skernsk, thank you for going over this. I was wondering how this was going to turn out, especially with the other thread in existence.
While I am not sure how many issues were brought up, I agree that we need to do something about this one, while not adding too much to the rules so that we might want to consult a legal council in the end.
May I suggest that we put a quota on the number of planes used. I am pretty sure the FSO designers have thought out of some sort of ratio of the planes to be used in the frame. The downside of this will be the need to come up with a penalty schema if and when this quota is not met. Another will be the low turn out in numbers may result in not achieving the quota or making the plane set lopsided into one or several types.
Another suggestion is related to the "Gentlemen's agreement". New comers or a new CO need to be "trained" or "broken" into the spirit or norms of the community. I thought upon taking a look into the mission orders that I was given for the frame, it seemed to emphasize one part, and the other was neglected. It raised my eyebrows on what could possibly happen. The point of the Squad Ops, at least for myself, is to have fun. It means to enjoy the tention and the intensity of the fighting that goes on while it does. Of course, I would like this to last as long as possible, but it also means dying gloriously at the hands of your opponent if it so happens. At least, the opponent was given the opportunity to enjoy the thrill that he righteously deserved, just like I would when I get a kill. Well, I wouldn't want to make a huge training program into this, but having participated from the beginning of this event, I did understand what and why certain things were designed in a certain way. "Gentlemen's agreement" can only stand if and only if there is a common understanding on how this fun is derived from the event.
oh man, I am starting to write an essay. Well, I am just thinking out loud...
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Skernsk
arent we had same situation on same map and similar scenario couple years ago with Sunday Squad operations?
I remember big fight and couple closed topics:)
I belive GD stilll remember this one
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Good comments and suggestions Flying Dutchman so I wont write an essay here. :D I'm looking forward to he next FSO.
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Skernsk its my opinion that the axis lost these frames purely by virtue of poor planning. The rules were simple enough. You'll remember I mailed you before the first frame ( I was allied CO) because I was concerned about the number of axis attack planes, Ju88s in particular. I was afraid of a Ju88 overcast as there was nothing in the rules to preclude it happening. I was also worried about the Stuka pilots coming back in their second lives in 190F8s which were as lethal attack planes as the Stukas themselves less the big bomb. Didn't look good for me at first.
After some thought I realized that the targets were only worth 100 points apiece and therefore not worth throwing a ton of attack planes, in my case A20s that I could only fly singly or in their case the Ju88s in formations at a cost of 15 points a plane. My strategy in frame 1 was of a strong defense with a limited but potent attack figuring that if the attack mission was carried out and most or good part of of the target destroyed even if I lost all the planes in that mission I'd still be ahead from a strictly points standpoint which was the idea.
What happened in that frame was the axis went exactly the other way in their strategy and focused on a massive attack with Ju88s. My defenders found one of the attacks on Leningrad and anhiliated it. The attack on the refinery complex got thru due to sheer numbers and hit us hard with a lot of Stukas but apparantly both attacks cost about all the planes used including a TON of Ju88s at Leningrad which again at 15 points apiece added up rather quickly. Once all those pilots were removed by their deaths there was really no one around to stop us from cleaning up our targets with the rest of the time available to us in the frame and we did just that. Frames are 2 hours long.
Frame 2 Cheezhd was axis CO and I helped him use a similar strategy to frame 1. And in frame 2 the axis CO made the same exact mistake of using a ton of Ju88s in massive attacks. The result was an even more lopsided allied victory than in frame 1.
Frame 3 it was like being ahead by 20000 points going into final jeopardy. Was like nothing we could possiby do would lose the event for us so we came up with a really simplified plan. Everybody go this way first. I was leading the IL2 group. I called out the Ju88s coming around 62 just as I disco'd. I joined another IL2 as a gunner. We hit Helsinki unopposed and dropped all the buildings there at our leisure. On our way to RTB we ran into some 109s that chopped us up, ending our frame.
Bottom line---obectives were only worth 100 points apiece, planes worth 10-15 points apiece. Focus of the event by design was on staying alive and killing the enemy's planes. We did that and won big. The allies didn't and it cost them. Was a priorities thing nothing more.
Drano
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In the future with a setup like this I would not use the Ju-88’s in the numbers we had, but hind site is 20/20. I suck as a Frame C.O. but they were costly losses.
Good posts Dutch, Drano. CM’s are going over some changes now that they may or may not implement. It is up to those running it now. Ramzey I think I remember that too. :)
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Seeing how COs may differ in their approach to these things..some what historical assignments, others analyze the rules and plan strategy based on points, maybe it wouldnt be a bad idea if the COs got together and planned the battle for both sides. Not so much as in giving away the entire plans of each side, but more in making sure there are multiple targets, and appropriate opposition at each target.
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Good points Drano. You are correct in your assessment of the planning - I was surprised to see so many 15 point planes going towards the targets and was expecting 4 or 5 groups of bombers with close escort and a strong group of fighters sweeping ahead.
I was equally surprised with the lack of anything but La5's used in Frame 3.
Once again, no matter how much time spent on it, you guys manage to find a way to plan that was the opposite of what I envisioned:cool:
I think that the low numbers for objectives was a nice little experiment, but ultimately a failure. Because of the low numbers it was not considered worth attacking or attacking in large numbers. Same can be said for defending them.
Please keep in mind that if the objectives are worth 300 points or 3000 points all of the objectives must be attacked, and all must be defended. Without doing so the event sees many players flying circles all night - and in the end we may loose some squads over that.
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just so yall know,yes my post level is low(lost my last account)but im not new,ive been flying tods as a co/xo for 4 years now.ive run at least 5.the rules are flawed,allways have been.
we have a gentelmans agrement.its we all take off at the same time,in certain planes,from certain fields,and attack certain targets in a certain amount of time.what more do you need?10 paces?whose to say i cant send everyone down one path?what, just cause you didnt think of it?its not like its a garunteed win?send attackers hit the targets and land,no deaths?you win.but no,you choose to keep going and try to deffened and attack more?so you die?thats just poor leadership.dont think it was fun?then suggest a rule change
i suggest a rule change right now
the cm cant get on country channel and floood the text with questions of weather some thing was hit or not,ignore responses given by the mission leader,then start making threats of penalties and throwing an entier squad out because hes getting frustrated that he has no idea whats going on or who hes even talking to.if he cant find out if 49 was hit,how the heck can i be expected to know?
i was asked 9 times if 49 was hit by the cm.i asked the squad assigned to it and got no response15 times.and responded on country 30 times.was then told that wasnt good enough.it pulled me away from the end of my plan and changed the outcome.i had to put an officer in charge so i could go get talked down to by my cm in the tower.
i understand that the cm was just trying to help,but he had an affect on how the mission was run.i called off my final attack because of him.write or wrong,he stopped it.theres a reson penalties are there,and missions should be allowed to run there course.let the chips fall where they may,sort it out later.who knows ,maybee i send everyone in on low fuel to hit 49 and we get penalized,get hit by 109's in force and die on the way home?coulda changed the outcome drastickly.cm should have stayed out of it,and he coulda kept his attitude to himself as well.
whatever,its just a game.but if you play a game with vauge rules,dont get mad when someone plays in a way you didnt expect.
1570 - allied
650 - axis
:aok
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p.s.
i used the plane type loophole about 1 year ago and you guys changed the rules to say"4 0f the 5 planes must be flown in squad strength"seemed to cover it but scince then the rule has gone away from the list.i read the rules and use them to my best advantage.as a leader in a game its the foundation of planning.if you leave them open....well
1570 - allied
650 - axis
:aok
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
i suggest a rule change right now
the cm cant get on country channel and floood the text with questions of weather some thing was hit or not,ignore responses given by the mission leader,then start making threats of penalties and throwing an entier squad out because hes getting frustrated that he has no idea whats going on or who hes even talking to.if he cant find out if 49 was hit,how the heck can i be expected to know?
i was asked 9 times if 49 was hit by the cm.i asked the squad assigned to it and got no response15 times.and responded on country 30 times.was then told that wasnt good enough.it pulled me away from the end of my plan and changed the outcome.i had to put an officer in charge so i could go get talked down to by my cm in the tower.
i understand that the cm was just trying to help,but he had an affect on how the mission was run.i called off my final attack because of him.write or wrong,he stopped it.theres a reson penalties are there,and missions should be allowed to run there course.let the chips fall where they may,sort it out later.who knows ,maybee i send everyone in on low fuel to hit 49 and we get penalized,get hit by 109's in force and die on the way home?coulda changed the outcome drastickly.cm should have stayed out of it,and he coulda kept his attitude to himself as well.
whatever,its just a game.but if you play a game with vauge rules,dont get mad when someone plays in a way you didnt expect.
1570 - allied
650 - axis
:aok
sqwiglly, I wouldn't characterize the conversation between you and the CM as the way you put it, although if it were me, I wouldn't answered the way you did. However, you are right that this could have been sorted later, of which it should be because scoring comes after deliberations after the frame is over.
On the other hand, somehow, I still fail to see why what the CM did made you call off an attack.
Please excuse the confusion with my remark about a new CO. I was certainly not referring about you, but rather that on general terms, it does help to have some sort of programs for new comers to become familiar with how certain things are done, especially that AH is a long running game, and new comers should be made feel welcome to community as well. My post was just point toward that fact.
Yes, you are right, it's just a game. You made your point about the loophole and righteously it is getting the attention that it deserves. It will in the end be better for the Squad Ops in the end.
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
p.s.
i used the plane type loophole about 1 year ago and you guys changed the rules to say"4 0f the 5 planes must be flown in squad strength"seemed to cover it but scince then the rule has gone away from the list.i read the rules and use them to my best advantage.as a leader in a game its the foundation of planning.if you leave them open....well
1570 - allied
650 - axis
:aok
oh man... Sqwiglly, do us a favor, please don't view this as "you guys changed...", it was us, including you.
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anyone who doubts the effect the cm had on me and the mission,ill send you the tape.it has me trying despratly to respond to the cm's questions with no reply,countrymen responding the same thing i just said to him,with no response, yet more threats of penalties,followed by me removing myself as leader to go find him in the tower to get it through to him what i was trying to on text,only to get torn a new one verbaly.the attack was called off because i couldnt get him to respond to me.yes we had not hit 49 so we should not have.but i didnt know that and niether did he.so threats of penalties,over and over,were out of line.unless hes my boss,he should have stayed out of it,and not threatened to throw my squad out.nor interfeared with the outcome of the battle.
wanna see the tape?send me an email ill send it to ya
steelriverstudios@hotmail.com
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oh man... Sqwiglly, do us a favor, please don't view this as "you guys changed...", it was us, including you
not shure what this means?
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
anyone who doubts the effect the cm had on me and the mission,ill send you the tape.it has me trying despratly to respond to the cm's questions with no reply,countrymen responding the same thing i just said to him,with no response, yet more treats of penalties,followed by me removing myself as leader to go find him in the tower to get it through to him what i was trying to on text,only to get torn a new one verbaly.the attack was called off because i couldnt get him to respond to me.yes we had not hit 49 so we should not have.but i didnt know that and niether did he.so threats of penalties,over and over,were out of line.unless hes my boss,he should have stayed out of it,and not threatened to throw my squad out.nor interfeared with the outcome of the battle.
wanna see the tape?send me an email ill send it to ya
steelriverstudios@hotmail.com
Sqwiglly, I was there next to you. I wouldn't call that a threat. Or let's put it this way, we shouldn't interpret that as a threat. As you said, we should let the chips fall and deal with it later. You did what you did, and you held your course in doing so. So, I am not asking you to prove to me anything. I will believe you that you had difficulties dealing with the situation. You made your position known, now I believe it is up to the CM team to determine what is necessary to be done.
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Sqwiglly, I was there next to you. I wouldn't call that a threat. Or let's put it this way, we shouldn't interpret that as a threat.
well call it what you will,when some one yells at me"you will be quiet and listen to me""your 1 step from being thrown out of here"i tend to believe them.
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
not shure what this means?
I am not sure how to explain that in writing without writing an essay and a beer... to put it in the least amount of words possible... it is because I want you to be part of the community that I enjoy playing with...
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
well call it what you will,when some one yells at me"you will be quiet and listen to me""your 1 step from being thrown out of here"i tend to believe them.
Ok then, send it to the CM team. I am sure they will take proper action.
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for what?ive got no complaints about the outcome?i settled it with the cm?its mearly a suggestion for a rule change?they can pay attention to us or not.i acctually hope it stays this way so when i do it again in 6 month,(or 4 years if jb4238744374032 has his way)ill get to find another loophole.thats what video games are arent they?find the shortcut to save your granades till level 4 and kill the boss with ease?
some play on different levels in ah thats all.
its all good,just havin fun,see yall on level 10.
i just speak up when someone tells me i did wrong when i know i did right.
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
for what?ive got no complaints about the outcome?i settled it with the cm?its mearly a suggestion for a rule change?they can pay attention to us or not.i acctually hope it stays this way so when i do it again in 6 month,(or 4 years if jb4238744374032 has his way)ill get to find another loophole.thats what video games are arent they?find the shortcut to save your granades till level 4 and kill the boss with ease?
some play on different levels in ah thats all.
its all good,just havin fun,see yall on level 10.
i just speak up when someone tells me i did wrong when i know i did right.
Exactly, so... So, where's the problem?
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well,.........................im out off beer:cry
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
for what?ive got no complaints about the outcome?i settled it with the cm?its mearly a suggestion for a rule change?they can pay attention to us or not.i acctually hope it stays this way so when i do it again in 6 month,(or 4 years if jb4238744374032 has his way)ill get to find another loophole.thats what video games are arent they?find the shortcut to save your granades till level 4 and kill the boss with ease?
some play on different levels in ah thats all.
its all good,just havin fun,see yall on level 10.
i just speak up when someone tells me i did wrong when i know i did right.
ur idea of "RIGHT" is off from mine a little bit. it seems to me ur a gamer with all the level 4 talk. FSO is not in that realm,...IMO, FSO is supposed to take much of the gaming aspect out of it.
END POINT:
U took ur loophole, guys are mad about it because they understand chivalry, of which u seem not to.
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chivalry?thats like 10 paces or something right.or ,these days,treating woman with respect right?
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People are starving in the world.
As for the FSO..as an allied player I must say, having all LA5s was far too much an advantage. Being just a player, who didnt receive any orders due to an email settings thing I havent figured out yet, I just fly what Im told to fly. We did do well...but..a little of the victory is tarnished somewhat in the planes we had available.
The thing that turns me off from events is the game aspect of it. When I see certain things done, there arent something a histirical commander do, just because according to the rules its worth more points, it turns me off.
Im not saying dont play to win, Im just saying if you find the deck stacked in your favor, perhaps bring it up before hand to avoid any of this BS further down the road.
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well put Filth
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Seeing how COs may differ in their approach to these things..some what historical assignments, others analyze the rules and plan strategy based on points, maybe it wouldnt be a bad idea if the COs got together and planned the battle for both sides.
We tried this for about 10 months Filth. In Squad Ops we opened up an Allied and Axis Frame C.O. forum and every month changed the Frame C.O.’s No one ever used it. Well actually, the Sunday Squad Ops guys did, but the Friday Squad Ops forum was void of posts. It was closed.
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Thats too bad, because for the past two weeks in the AvA we would contact an interested axis player, willing to organize a defense, telling him of our target,alt, and disposition. It seemed to work pretty well, putting enemies in the right places at the right time for the most part. Atleast there was an attempt made by both sides.
Playing an event where little contact was made with the enemy, although your objectives were met, may be good on paper, but Im here for the party.
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sorry,its just to easy
filth ,i thought i put the enemy in thier place just fine?
dude theres a party at a1 in the dueling arena
nothin but war in here
so if it was the planes available?,if i had sent a swarm of a 20's,does it make a differance in my tactics?
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sqwiglly
stop acting like handsomehunk
you are not first who walk on the edge of rules
you are not first who won frame in Squad operations
you are not first who fight with CM about rules and CiC freelance
stop acting like selfish ***** and be men, just shut up
What was happend its done, move on
Learn from JB42
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its just a conversation,if ya dont like it,stay out of it.im allowed to talk any bs i feel like,just like your allowed to call me a handsomehunk.funny how it doesnt bother me what you say
learn from jb4234677654?
hes the one who said us wasnt he?
so i guess i did learn from him
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Squig Im not horribly upset..we won :) But...we won using all LA5s. In most FSOs I get some kills, but normally not as many in this one. Its certainly an "Its the plane not the pilot" issue with the LAs in my opinion.
It was a fun night, and we won, its just that the degree of difficulty was turned down a bit. You did as you saw fit, with the style you have, I'll say WTG, and that should just about wrap her up :)
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i agree,it was unfair.but so is trying to fight 109's at 20000ft in a p40,yet we still have to do it sometimes,and i never cried foul
id like to know,if we had swamed them with a20's instead would anyone have cared?
was it because of the swarm?or because of the type of swarm?
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i think, sqwig - its not the swarm so much as the 'gaming' of the rules that have upset alot of folks...
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I reluctantly jump in here.
During the course of frame three, I asked 4 times on command channel 150, and Country Channel: "327th is rearmed over A4. Shall we hit 49 ? Orders?"
I got no reply that I could definitely identify as a response to my particular question.
May I suggest that all text responses include the requestor's name so he/she can recognize the response as speciffically directed to him/her and therefore answering his'/hers' specific question.
Otherwise, ambiguity runs rampant.
Eagle, GXO
327th Steel Talons Squadrons
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after watching the tape i have noticed several crutial moments in text that i was slippin or just plain confused.people were waiting for orders or got the wrong ones.i was lookin for the il2's when they were right under us,i left them behind and they got jumped.my apologies.it does get hecktick.when you asked if you should hit 49 i was in an argument with the cm about just that.orders were slower and more vauge than i would have liked.i salute all squads on our side.things got clouded at the end but we all followed the goal and made it out ahead.
anyone who says it was unfair,watch the tape and see the 20 109's against the 5 las over leningrad.yall had your chance.
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END POINT:
U took ur loophole, guys are mad about it because they understand chivalry, of which u seem not to. [/B][/QUOTE]
well said
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
anyone who says it was unfair,watch the tape and see the 20 109's against the 5 las over leningrad.yall had your chance.
:rofl :rofl :rofl We had our chance:rofl :rofl :rofl
ya forgot the 20+ that rolled in a minute later
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no i didnt,i was one of the 5.it was plenty of time and support was stragglin in.if they were given the order to break off bomber defense they coulda hurt us.instead they stayed on d,backup followed the directions of the scouts bellow the bombers,caught up and....well
cover had plenty of time to swarm us,get back up and defend.instead they hesitated
think im wrong?watch the tape.look how many 109's are swarmin round me as i fly on auto so i can text.they grouped up as much as we did yet we broke some code
ya i know,your all tired of this and im a handsomehunk.so dont ever read this thread again.ill continue to converse whenever i feel theres something worth saying
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
no i didnt,i was one of the 5.it was plenty of time and support was stragglin in.if they were given the order to break off bomber defense they coulda hurt us.instead they stayed on d,backup followed the directions of the scouts bellow the bombers,caught up and....well
cover had plenty of time to swarm us,get back up and defend.instead they hesitated
think im wrong?watch the tape.look how many 109's are swarmin round me as i fly on auto so i can text.they grouped up as much as we did yet we broke some code
ya i know,your all tired of this and im a handsomehunk.so dont ever read this thread again.ill continue to converse whenever i feel theres something worth saying
:cry :cry
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Maybe we need to have an attitude check before allowing random people to become CiCs.
Sqwiglly is a child and there is not point in arguing with him. Many people on the axis side flew in circles for well over an hour waiting to have fun in fighting, defending, killing or dying. Our squad was to defend V49 and we did not see any action until the last few mintues of the frame. By then, 2 or 3 planes came in and I think 1 plane managed to shoot an ack or two. That's when my squad was able to kill off 2 out of three3 very quickly. That last guy ran for 1 sector where 30 to 40 la's were waiting high and quickly slaughtered my squad of about 9.
Overall:
We flew in circles for well over an hour, got to jump 2 guys low. Then chased an la for a sector only to get jumped by too many la's. We knew we were going to get jumped 2 min prior to it, but out of boredum, we didn't care. We just wanted to feel like we participated in this FSO.
No bombers were ever seen. Only fast la's at low altitude. That kind of gameplay discourages many players on both sides. I play for historical battles, and not for points.
Some people just never grow up and through life, I've learned to deal with them.
I hope this next frame will not be a repeat fo the last one.:aok
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After taking a few hours to come up with my orders for Frame 2, to type them out, color code everything, make the map, do the test flights to make sure the buffs could reach their targets before the time limit, it was VERY disheartening to see the hastily thrown together orders for Frame 3. I was kind enough to give sqwig's squad the requested La-5's in Frame 2, and what does he do in frame 3? He sticks my squad in the sacrificial P40's and Yaks. Thanks man, I'll remember that next time you want a favor! :)
At any rate, his plan for Frame 3 was effective, albeit not very historical. What kind of crackhead general would really write up something like this? My squad (only 3 of us made it) was supposed to make a few bases flash, on our way to attacking (I think it was 49?). Well, we made 3 bases flash, only to draw the attention of about 20 109's. Those 109's must've just got done watching Brokeback Mountain, because they violated my squad in ways I've never imagined!
~CheezHed {Shillelagh}
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Okay folks, I think we've all learned something from this. Lookijng at the setup for the next FSO, I can see that the CMs have taken steps to avoid the kind of misunderstanding that occured last time. Let's move along. ;)
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Originally posted by MAG1C
Okay folks, I think we've all learned something from this. Lookijng at the setup for the next FSO, I can see that the CMs have taken steps to avoid the kind of misunderstanding that occured last time. Let's move along. ;)
It was no misunderstanding. :D
Some people just never learned as a child, how to play well with others.