Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Kratzer on January 04, 2002, 10:48:00 AM
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An interesting article, and luckily I think the writer is objective, and realizes that most of this crap is kids trying to get a rise... you will need to register with the NYT to read it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/03/technology/circuits/03NAZI.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/03/technology/circuits/03NAZI.html)
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Must register to view.
Could you just cut n paste the article here?
-SW
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Lazy bastards.
January 3, 2002
Defying a Taboo, Nazi Protagonists Invade Video Games
By JONATHAN KAY
FEW taboos exist in the blood- and-gore world of shoot-'em-up video games. But game makers have traditionally respected one rule: no Nazi protagonists.
Last year that rule was challenged on at least two fronts. In November, Activision (news/quote) released Return to Castle Wolfenstein, a game in which players take the role of a United States soldier on a mission "to thwart Heinrich Himmler's occult and genetic experiments." The multiplayer version, which pits players against one another online, allows some players to fight as German soldiers.
And even before Return to Castle Wolfenstein, another realistic first- person shooter with a Nazi protagonist was making a stir: Day of Defeat, which was released for online play last January.
Unlike Castle Wolfenstein, Day of Defeat was not issued by a major game maker. It is a modification of the popular science-fiction PC game Half-Life, created by 17 young programmers writing code in their spare time.
Todd Hollenshead, chief executive of Id Software, which produced Return to Castle Wolfenstein for Activision, described the games as a result of the renewed interest in World War II evidenced by films like "Saving Private Ryan" and "Enemy at the Gates."
"The trend you're seeing with new games is, to some extent, a reflection of what's going in the culture," Mr. Hollenshead said. "For instance, you've now got games with terrorists and counterterrorists. And World War II games such as Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Day of Defeat reflect what you see in popular movies."
Yet Day of Defeat not only shows battlefields decorated with swastikas and Nazi posters but also attracts many players with an enthusiasm for neo-Nazi role playing. The game tries to recreate specific World War II battles. Soldiers on the German side wield Gewehr 43 semiautomatic rifles, Luger pistols, so-called potato-masher grenades and, when the ammunition runs out, Hitler Youth knives. In some games, a battle is signaled with a rousing call to arms broadcast in German.
The presence of swastikas and other Nazi symbols is so pervasive that the game might be viewed as illegal in Germany, where the dissemination of Nazi thought and symbols is banned. The programmers are moving to avoid any trouble in Europe.
"We're working on a version that won't present problems," said Matt Boone, who led Day of Defeat's programming team. "We want to make sure Germans can play the game and not break the rules."
The chat rooms that combatants use to type messages to one another during games have also become battlefields of a sort, with players using Nazi-inspired names and expressing neo-Nazi sentiments. A recent scan of active Day of Defeat game servers revealed a list of Axis players with noms de guerre like Mein Kampf, HitlerYouth and ZyklonB, although it is hard to determine whether the names were chosen simply to get attention. In a recent game, a player on the German side using the name AnneFrank was questioned about that moniker. "Oh, you know," the player said. "I'm just trying to keep things spicy."
Some groups of players called clans who routinely play Day of Defeat together also refer to themselves with Nazi labels. A well-organized group of German students based in Singapore calls itself Clan SS, a reference to the ruthless Nazi military divisions responsible for some of the war's worst atrocities. "Yes, German," said Lorien Stoetzel, who identifies himself online as the clan's "Oberfeldwebel," meaning platoon sergeant. "But we're not neo-Nazi freaks. Everyone asks me that, but we're not."
Mr. Stoetzel said that the group's members simply enjoyed playing games and had chosen the name because they found it provocative.
Some gamers contend that tasteless provocation is a staple of the gaming world as a whole. "It's a problem in all games, unfortunately," said Bruce Boyden, 34, a Washington lawyer and self-described 10- hour-a-week gamer. "There's always the odd hateful taunt. Sometimes it goes beyond a single word or two, and somebody starts ranting about their racist viewpoint nonstop. The problem is that the majority of players are white males in their teens or early 20's, so the dynamic is about the same as in any boys' locker room."
Mark Weitzman, the national director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center's Task Force Against Hate, based in New York, said he found the use of Nazi protagonists disturbing. "It encourages people to express what are rightly considered to be socially unacceptable sentiments — racism and anti-Semitism and hate," he said.
Alex Forman, a 32-year-old gamer from Yorkshire, England, was disturbed enough by the introduction of German protagonists that he wrote and posted an essay entitled "Return to Castle Wolfenstein: What About the Holocaust?"
In an interview, he said of Day of Defeat: "The historical angle certainly enhances the game play and lends itself well to the whole `kill or be killed' atmosphere. But you have to wonder if the specific overtones in the game were really necessary."
The programmers behind Day of Defeat contend that they were interested in ensuring historical accuracy in the equipment, weapons and uniforms, not in providing an outlet for neo-Nazi sentiment.
"There's nothing like traveling back more than half a century to put yourself in the boots of a World War II soldier storming the beaches at Normandy," said Matthew Lane, 17, a Day of Defeat Web designer from North Carolina. "As kids, many of us have dreamt what our grandfathers and fathers suffered through, and fought for, more than 50 years ago. Day of Defeat just brings these things to reality."
The creators of Castle Wolfenstein and Day of Defeat point out that the soldiers depicted are regular German soldiers, not SS troops. (In the case of Day of Defeat, there are already tools to hack the graphics features to change uniforms. An Austrian clan called Sonderkommando Carinthia has posted a downloadable file that causes a German-side Day of Defeat player to appear in the uniform of an SS soldier.)
The makers of Return to Castle Wolfenstein say they sought to avoid Nazi symbolism that would promote dark role-playing. "I wouldn't say that we believe we have to be politically correct about this sort of thing," Mr. Hollenshead said. "But we definitely designed the game to be more Axis versus Allies than Nazis versus Allies."
He added that the game lacked the Nazi symbols that might make it illegal to sell in Germany. "The German market is one we believe is significant," he said.
The multiplayer version of the game has no Nazi symbols, but the single-player version does include Nazi imagery. And the Web site says the game cannot be sold in Germany or Austria.
So far, there is little evidence of Nazism, whether genuine or postured, on Return to Castle Wolfenstein's online servers. Still, the game's creators say that the presence of Axis protagonists is bound to attract criticism.
"I don't doubt there are going to be people that go out and distort what the multiplayer gaming experience is and say, `Oh, I can't believe you guys did this," Mr. Hollenshead said. "There are a lot of critics of the game industry, and they look for things to criticize."
For some gamers, many of the debates are resolved in the game itself.
"Most of the time I play, there is at least one guy on the server with a name like Dr. Goebbels or something," said Chris Oakley, 34, a Day of Defeat player from Montreal. "I egg them on by typing like `Long live Zionism.' I always get a rise out of them. They go out of their way to hunt me down."
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I don't recall Wolfenstein 3D getting this much attention. Or the secret DOOM levels that had Wolfenstein levels in it.
Just seems to me that it's a part of the PC movement. "Don't show nuffin that may offend someone."
It's a game, no one is making anyone buy it. If you do, you obviously are interested in the genre.
I own RTWC, and they allowed for you to destroy just about every Nazi symbol in the game. For example, the swastika hangs on a red banner in every level where you are inside a castle or such places like that where the German's could hold up... You can either shoot the banners, or walk up to them and kick them and they get destroyed.
So, everyone can destroy the swastika if they are so inclined...
Il-2 came without the swastika enabled on the German aircraft, a few weeks later a hack came out that enabled this. I use it everytime I fly for atmosphere. I don't believe for a minute I am taking the place of a Nazi or fighting for Hitler- it's just a game.
It's just another example of people trying to find something to blame because of their poor parenting- blaming video games for violence or for their kids walking into their school and gunning kids down.
Anyway, thanks for posting the article here Kratzer.
-SW
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hehe what a load of bullcrap.
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Did the author study in the High Party School in mid-70s? The same style and language that Soviet official press used to bait rock'n'roll and other "Western influences".
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I'd like to squeak-slap people like that.
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"with players using Nazi-inspired names and expressing neo-Nazi sentiments. "
LOL! They consider things like German squadron names to be "pro-Nazi sentiments".
This article is proof that the universe is indeed building the bigger idiot.
J_A_B
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No, they should only consider the guys running around with the monikers of "Jewkilla" or talking about "let's put them all into concentration camps" as expressing Neo-Nazi sentiments. The problem comes from when they (the anti-Nazi sentiment group) then expand it to saying anyone that uses German terms is pro-Nazi.
Both of the quotes above are what I observed in my 30 minutes of playing WWIIOL for the Axis side in the first week or so of getting the game, btw.
edit: grammatical error
[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Nifty ]
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Nifty, do you ever watch Son Of The Beach? Think it comes on FX.
One of the lifeguards (it's a play on the show BayWatch) is a big bellybutton ripped Arnold Schwarzenager(sp?) rip off with a german accent to boot.
One episode they were helping out kids with ADD (Attention Defecit Disorder) and the German guy (I forget his name) said, "I am going to make a camp for these kids to help them. I am going to call it Hanz's concentration camp."
The name isn't Hanz, but it was equally as German. Anyway, I just thought it was funny as hell and now that I think about it I dunno if it's relevant to this topic at all. :)
-SW
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"with players using Nazi-inspired names and expressing neo-Nazi sentiments. "
LOL! They consider things like German squadron names to be "pro-Nazi sentiments".
This article is proof that the universe is indeed building the bigger idiot.
J_A_B
The chat rooms that combatants use to type messages to one another during games have also become battlefields of a sort, with players using Nazi-inspired names and expressing neo-Nazi sentiments. A recent scan of active Day of Defeat game servers revealed a list of Axis players with noms de guerre like Mein Kampf, HitlerYouth and ZyklonB,
Why would you leave out the part of the quote that makes the authors point JAB? Seems like German and NAZI were kept pretty well seperated throughout the article. I agreee with Kratzer, this is an objective and non-judgemental report. :cool:
Unless of course there is an actual ZyklonB Squadron, then you have my apology.
[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Tah Gut ]
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This particular author is smart enough to use only the most drastic names he could find. Good for him. He apparrently passed English Comp 1 and knows that to make an argument sound feasable you need to use good examples. But examples are only that--the most dramatic occurances of the problem.
I have seen people complaining about names such as "JG 2". A friend of mine was banned from our longtime CS server for talking about Adolf Galland in a positive light (he said Adolf, he must be evil). Did you not read the part of the article that insinuated that even PLAYING as a german is possibly wrong? Heck, even on this AH BBS people who fly Luftwaffe planes are sometimes associated with Hitler and Nazi ideals.
The underlying suggestion of this whole line of thinking is anyone who PLAYS as a German/Nazi, is actually trying to BE one. This is obviously untrue yet some people want to believe it, whether out of stupidity or a very real (though mistaken) fear of Neo-Nazi resurgance. In the end it is linked to the PC movement as a whole, a movement which means well but often goes too far.
I am waiting for the way when people who play Age of Empires 2 as Mongols are labeled as wannabe bloodthirsty killers because the real Mongols were. Remember how DooM was labeled as a training device for wannabe serial killers? This is just more of the same.
J_A_B
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Before I start here I would like to make it perfectly clear that I have no problem with the inclusion of NAZI symbols or whatever in any game. People should have the freedom to choose, and as Voltare said, "I may hate what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Its all these posts lashing out at the author of this article as some kind of PC witchhunter. Did you guys read the article? Is there no room to question the morality of NAZI symbols? I suggest you all go back and read it again, and quit the knee jerk reactions.
Here is the closest approach I found in the article to a convergence of NAZI and German:
Yet Day of Defeat not only shows battlefields decorated with swastikas and Nazi posters but also attracts many players with an enthusiasm for neo-Nazi role playing. The game tries to recreate specific World War II battles. Soldiers on the German side wield Gewehr 43 semiautomatic rifles, Luger pistols, so-called potato-masher grenades and, when the ammunition runs out, Hitler Youth knives.
Now I guess that could be construed as "soldiers on the German side" being made to look equivilent to "Neo-NAZI roleplayers". If there is more, please point it out.
Now I can understand the attraction to the German hardware. WW2 planes are very cool (of course or we wouldn't be here) and the Germans had some of the coolest planes and tanks.
OTOH the guys flying those planes, or commanding those tanks were doing their damndest to maintain the power of the NAZI party. Remember, wars are almost always political. I know, some were not members of the party..yada yada yada...so what?
Its kinda like watching a high speed pursuit on TV. I may admire the car, but no matter how skilled the driver, he is still putting peoples lives in danger and needs to be put away until he sees the light. (Don't tell me its the cops fault. That would be completely beside the point.)
Even those old timers we have come to know like Adolf Galland, renounced the NAZI party. If they didn't would you still admire them? If so, why?
:cool:
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You can't play Cowboys and Injuns if nobody is willing to be the Injuns!
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Native Americans Funked.
We grew up playing Cowboys and Indians, our kids will grow up playing Livestock Managers and Native Americans. :rolleyes:
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DoD rules!
I play as Allied 90% of the time in DoD, guess im not a Nazi, yea!
BTW there are Waffen-SS modeled in DoD, the Scharfschutze and the Scharfuhrer.
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That guy got it so wrong.
Everyone knows you go for the German side for the leather g-strings and "uniforms".
Geesh.
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Old Man Murray's Perspective: http://www.oldmanmurray.com/realnews.shtml (http://www.oldmanmurray.com/realnews.shtml)
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The one piece of news that did emerge from Germany back in the late nineties is that, evidently, the German government has forbidden the use of Nazis in games. It's tough to decide what's worse: being the country that invented and then decided to actually try out Naziism, or being the country that prohibited the best video game villains ever. It's a tie, I guess.
I wish we lived in a world where all games were required to include Nazis. Though, now that I think about it, I'm describing a world where Germany won World War 2, such as the one portrayed in every novel, play, tv show, and movie about time travel. So let me qualify that: I want to live in a country that prohibits games that feature any type of enemy other than Nazis. Soldiers, robots, dogs - anything goes as long as they're Nazis or, in the case of dogs, German Shepherds. And this is exactly the type of harebrained law a few hundred thousand dollars can buy you in Charles Taylor's Liberia. So it's not just a crazy dream. If we take up a collection, we could probably get this legislation passed and still have enough left over to save Something Awful during its next Fred Sanford-esque "big one".
The law will also state that any game featuring Nazis - which is every game in my proposed Israel for gamers, Liberia - should have Hitler as the final boss. Because, seriously, making a game about Nazis and not having you somehow fight Hitler - whether he lives in a robot suit or flies around in a jet or maybe he's an armored dracula now or whatever - is retarded. If a game doesn't let you fight some form of Hitler - for instance, a giant Hitler - then that game will receive a warning sticker, in much the same way that the U.S. Goverment currently requires awful games to display on their box the universally understood symbol for unnacceptable quality, "Anne McCaffrey's".
With that out of the way, here's a picture of Return To Castle Wolfenstein's final boss and a nice painting of Hitler and a promotional photo of the best reason for a strictly religious mother to let her kids get Halloween out of their systems early,
<pictures of Rob Zombie, Wolfenstein Boss, and Hitler>
Now, I'm not a big man. In fact, I'm a small man attached to a big man's noodle. But small as I am, even I'm not afraid of Rob Zombie. I guess someone over at Gray Matter confused being dirty with being scary. Believe me, dreadlocks and a sleestack helmet don't make you the Predator.
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WITCH! BURN HER!
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Originally posted by Kratzer:
[QB]Lazy bastards.
......where the dissemination of Nazi thought and symbols is banned..........
QB]
This is one of the scariest things I've read in years. If I didn't know any better, I'd think it likely those freekin people still use the exact same "thought process" that brought the Nazi's to power in the first place.
I can't see how having german uniforms...even swastika's in a game should be considered illegal. If it's offensive to someone, perhaps the options to "turn it off" should be added but still, it's stupid. I personally don't believe the government, or some bleeding heart liberal dork should be deciding whats good for me, and they damn sure shouldn't have the right to tell me I can or can't "view" what I deem appropriate.
On a more positive note, don't anyone take this wrong or anything...but, the German military machine...ALL of'em ...MAN they had a way with "looking sharp". I mean really, even by today's standards they had the sharpest lookin military in history ..err IMHO.
Tumor
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The fact of the matter is this. People like this are trying to dumb down games because we are afraid we might "offend" someone. I've seen it happen. We are trying to sheild our children from the past, becasue they contain "bad" things. Day of Defeat is my favorite game of all time, and I could care less if I see swastikas in game or on uniforms. What are we supposed to do? Have the Germans wearing not historical uniforms, but "politically correct" uniforms? Remove the swastika from history books and games alike, so as our children cannot be alienated by their "influence"? Bullcrap, through and through. If a game is going to be historically accurate, then make it so. Remember when the old Castle Wolfenstein came out? It had Nazi propaganda all over it, but I didn't see such an uproar over that. What's the deal now? Frankly, I don't care if DoD or RTCW offends someone, I like the game as it is, and if someone changes that because someone got a bug up their butt, I'd be angry...
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Originally posted by Tumor:
I mean really, even by today's standards they had the sharpest lookin military in history ..err IMHO.
Tumor
That's because they got professional costume designers to design 'cool' uniforms for them - seriously.
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Originally posted by Kratzer:
The problem is that the majority of players are white males in their teens or early 20's, so the dynamic is about the same as in any boys' locker room."
problem?? why's it a problem?? it's not the teens and young adults, it's the retarded 7 year olds that pretend to be teens.
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Tumor, just to clarify:
According to german law displaying swastikas and NAZI symbols is legal as long as it's done for documentary purposes. I kinda doubt that RTWC is meant to be educational, however I agree that banning things that people can choose to do/read/play can't be any good.
[edit]last sentence was screwed, whoops
[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Redwing ]
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Interesting, my 2 cents...
First, in early AH versions I flew the 190 a lot. I was suprised by the number of people that called me a Nazi, oh they were the Gunman26/42 types, but still, I got private msgs on several occasions labelling me a Nazi. Thankfully this seems to have died down as this trash has been cleared out.
Second, in the WW2OL "beta" I logged in a few times as Axis. I was offended by what I saw, several guys, like Nifty said, called names like Jewkilla, on the radio shouting stuff like "lets kill some blacks/jews/fill in your favourite minority". This was one thing that immediately put me off WW2OL.
Third, how many of you live with someone that survived a holocaust, I'm not talking just WW2. Theres plenty of others (Cambodia, Somalia, Bosnia). If you don't, I suggest you talk to someone who has, ask them to tell you what they saw. You may change your mind about Nazi symbols. My wife lost her sister and father to the Khmer Rouge. Most of my friends have lots of stories they can tell me - like babies being split in half with machettes in front of them.
Think twice about why some people are so sensitive to this stuff. The slaughter goes on, different places, different reasons, but it still happens.
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Man,
I GOTTA get the Jew gassing, Horst Wessel lied singing, Black boot wearing, I love hitler boxer short using, SS-Scharfuhrer (Staff sargeant to you pilgrims) Dachau skin for DOD~!
Was that article headlined " An article every parent should read" parked next to the " How Oprah made the internet safe for 10 yr olds" story?
The japanese are finding out that by denying history, you bring up a generation of poeple completely ignorant of the mistakes of the past.
I think more damage is done by sensationalist journo's than by 'baaaaaaaaad' video games.
Tronski
(previously: Chow Yun-Fat is God, now " I love Sepp Dietrich" in Australian DOD servers)
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Originally posted by Tah Gut:
[QB]OTOH the guys flying those planes, or commanding those tanks were doing their damndest to maintain the power of the NAZI party. Remember, wars are almost always political. I know, some were not members of the party..yada yada yada...so what?
QB]
Many soldiers, pilots, tank commanders, naval personel, etc expressed pro-nazi feelings. Many were providing a service to their nation. They simply were doing their job. My uncle served in North Africa under Rommel, he also did his job. He didnt agree with the party's views. Today, those in uniform perform their duty whether they agree or not. Perhaps some American soldiers in Afghanistan do not agree with our actions, but they still perform what is asked of them. just my opinion
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Originally posted by Vulcan:
Interesting, my 2 cents...
First, in early AH versions I flew the 190 a lot. I was suprised by the number of people that called me a Nazi, oh they were the Gunman26/42 types, but still, I got private msgs on several occasions labelling me a Nazi. Thankfully this seems to have died down as this trash has been cleared out.
Wish more people would do that to me :D Gives me an excuse to let them have a piece of my mind. :cool:
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I know lots of people really lookig forward to this game
http://members.odinsrage.com/bhserbia/ (http://members.odinsrage.com/bhserbia/)
http://realaggression.psychosqueak1488.com/adolf.htm (http://realaggression.psychosqueak1488.com/adolf.htm)
Can't wait until AH's FPS element is all worked out.