Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: fartwinkle on February 21, 2006, 06:50:40 PM
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Hey we cant let all those dude in Kalifornia have all the fun can we?
Anyone up to meeting at backwoods trap for some shootin?
Anytime anyday Im always availible.
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Will there be quail involved?:lol
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
Will there be quail involved?:lol
:rofl :aok
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
Will there be quail involved?:lol
Wear your body armor just in case
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How far is that from Houston?
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I'm not in texas, but I'm curious what kind of guns do you guys have?
Does anyone have a Remington model 700 or experioence witrh one - I'm maybe gettin one this year?
French i tot u in la.. wtf?
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
How far is that from Houston?
About four hours up 45.
I shoot at the Ft. Worth Trap and Skeet Club over off of I-20 when the weather's good. Remington Model 870 Express Magnum with Ar-15-style collapsable stock is my gun of choice.
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Unless you Texans want to bury your heads in shame you better have bigger guns and more of 'em them thar Kalifornians!
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I have a 45mm handgun that big enough?
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45 mm? you mean cannon? WOW
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(http://www.geocities.com/versetrue/45.jpg)
it looks similar to this
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm not in texas, but I'm curious what kind of guns do you guys have?
Does anyone have a Remington model 700 or experioence witrh one - I'm maybe gettin one this year?
French i tot u in la.. wtf?
I move a lot :cry In Houston since August 2005.
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I'd be glad to join ya. I have a semi well stocked arsenal.:t
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Originally posted by rpm
I'd be glad to join ya. I have a semi well stocked arsenal.:t
Just let me know.
Was socked in by fog today but maybe later this week.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm not in texas, but I'm curious what kind of guns do you guys have?
Does anyone have a Remington model 700 or experioence witrh one - I'm maybe gettin one this year?
French i tot u in la.. wtf?
The 700 is probably the most well respected rifle out there.
The Army and Marines sniper rifles are based off of the 700.
You cant go wrong if you get one.
If your gonna shoot alot and are not hunting anything big go with a 223 cal.
If you need something bigger go with 308win.
I shoot a savage 12FV in 223 cal with a mcmillian A-5 stock and tasco custom shop scope 8x40x50
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do not even think of getting a .223 caliber bolt action
308!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 only way to go in bolt..reach out and crack things open..no mouse rounds
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Originally posted by Pei
Unless you Texans want to bury your heads in shame you better have bigger guns and more of 'em them thar Kalifornians!
I sold all my stuff when I got orders for Germany in 1994, (based on bad information at the time, I was told by the legal office on base you couldnt bring weapons into Germany)
so I used to have
.300 win mag, birdseye maple stock, mauser 98 action with a douglas barrel w/ 3x9 Bushnell scope
.350 Browning
30-30 Winchester Mod 94
32 Winchester Trapper
6.5 x55 Swed carbine
.22 Marlin semi auto
.12ga Stevens pump
.357 Ruger SAA flattop 3 screw
.22 SAA Sohn & sons, (colt replica)
Never got around replacing any of them when I came back, no time and no place to go hunting. The only one I really miss is the .357 Ruger, it was a 3 screw, flattop and it did not have the safety conversion kit added to it so usually only loaded 5 rounds. 5 digit serial # 10XXX. Had a really good custom wooden grips my wife found in a box at a gun show in Idaho. I paid $160 for it in 1987
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did someone say sniper?
A 45mm that looks like a 1911 45 auto? the thing must be about 4 foot tall huh?
lazs
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
I have a 45mm handgun that big enough?
I'll bet it takes both hands to shoot that :confused: recoil must sux
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north texas pheasant hunting best in the world. someday maybe i'll try it with a gun
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
do not even think of getting a .223 caliber bolt action
308!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 only way to go in bolt..reach out and crack things open..no mouse rounds
Like I said unless he his hunting anything bigger than white tail deer the 223 is just dandy.
I have pierced 1/2 thick steel plating with FMJ rnds from my 223.
I quaranty you it will do what you need it to do on most game out to 500yds.
And if your just gonna punch paper then why blow a wad of money on 308 ammo if a 223 or 17HMR will do the same thing?
In fact my 223 is far more accurat than a 30 cal at 100yds.
Im not sure what it cost to reload a 308 but my 223 is cheap to reload.
1lbs of H335 powder 22.00
1 box of fed 205 small rifle primers 1.75
1 box of 500 seirra machking 52 grn bulletts 53.00
100 rnds of rem brass 16.00
I will be willing to bet that per round the 223 is far less expensive than the 308.
Now having said all that if your gonna hunt mule deer or wild hogs or something ya better go with the 308 in fact I would go ahead and get the 300 win mag as the extra ammo cost over the 308 is very small but the ballistics out at 1000 yds is way better.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Like I said unless he his hunting anything bigger than white tail deer the 223 is just dandy.
Depends on the state's regulations. I cant say for Texas but Idaho required at least a 30 caliber weapon for large game (deer, elk etc) coyotes you could use 223 or 7mm
I have pierced 1/2 thick steel plating with FMJ rnds from my 223.
How close where you?
I quaranty you it will do what you need it to do on most game out to 500yds.
not without shot placement, and the further you have to shoot the harder it is to hit that sweet spot.
In fact my 223 is far more accurat than a 30 cal at 100yds.
accuracy is dependant on so many things, when I bore sighted my .300 win mag I had a 3 shot group at 100yds you could cover with a quarter, or atleast a half dollar, but that was with a bench rest and sandbags, no wind etc.
Im not sure what it cost to reload a 308 but my 223 is cheap to reload.
1lbs of H335 powder 22.00
1 box of fed 205 small rifle primers 1.75
1 box of 500 seirra machking 52 grn bulletts 53.00
100 rnds of rem brass 16.00
I will be willing to bet that per round the 223 is far less expensive than the 308.
its been more than 10 years for me when I reloaded, only difference i could for see is bullets may cost a few bucks more for .30 vs 22, maybe a few cents more for primers
Now having said all that if your gonna hunt mule deer or wild hogs or something ya better go with the 308 in fact I would go ahead and get the 300 win mag as the extra ammo cost over the 308 is very small but the ballistics out at 1000 yds is way better.
I would agree about using a .308 for deer and hog and anything else for that matter. but if you're gonna be hunting in brush I wouldnt use a .300 win mag again, and I dont remember the ballistics chart for the 300, but I never took a shot longer than 300 yds and for me personnally I wouldnt even attempt a shot further than 300yds
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north texas pheasant hunting best in the world. someday maybe i'll try it with a gun
Disagree. The (wild) pheasants in Pennsylvania are like friggin rockets. You're lucky to see one, much less get a shot off.
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Originally posted by Airscrew
I would agree about using a .308 for deer and hog and anything else for that matter. but if you're gonna be hunting in brush I wouldnt use a .300 win mag again, and I dont remember the ballistics chart for the 300, but I never took a shot longer than 300 yds and for me personnally I wouldnt even attempt a shot further than 300yds
I belive the current 1000 yard champ used a 300 win mag.
The 300win mag is a long distance cartridge.
You can use a 223 on white tail in tx.
But in Colorado for mule dear I think they require a 30 cal.
I was at 50 yds when I shot the steal.
I often put up groups that you could cover with your thumb nail with my 223.
Both the bulletts and brass cost more for the 308 also large rifle primers are more so shot for shot it is more expensive.
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ok, just because my wife says I would argue with God
I googled some info
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm
I realize there are differences in ballistics data, depending on powder, bullet weight, barrel length, etc, so I just grabbed one for an example.
The 300win mag is a long distance cartridge.
.300 Win. Mag. (180 Sp) MV - 2960fps, V @ 200 yds - 2540fps, ME (ft lb)3501ft lb, E @ 200 yds - 2578ft lb
Target shooting? ok 1,000 yard shot kill some paper. Hunting? I personnally wouldnt take a shot longer that 300 yards. I dont remember the math but at 1,000 yards I doubt there is very much kinetic energy left, (maybe 700lbs give or take) plenty to kill with but then you'd have to drill'em in heart or the head.
You can use a 223 on white tail in tx.
.223 Rem. (55 Sp) MV 3240fps, V @ 200 yds 2304fps, ME (ft lb) 1282ft lb, E @ 200 yds 648ft lb
.308 Win. (180 Sp) MV - 2620, V @ 200 yds - 2198, ME (ft lb) 2743, E @ 200 yds 1930
.223 would require better shot placement and luck. Luck and I dont get along well, I would rather use a .308 :)
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Hey we cant let all those dude in Kalifornia have all the fun can we?
Anyone up to meeting at backwoods trap for some shootin?
Anytime anyday Im always availible.
Im in. Where in N. Texas are you?
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Originally posted by Slash27
Im in. Where in N. Texas are you?
Plano wanna go shootin?
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Originally posted by Airscrew
.350 Browning
I had it wrong, it was a 358 Browning BLR. I didnt like it back then, smallest bullet I could ever find for reloading was a 180gr i think.
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.308 is a far better deer cartridge than .223. Those energy stats tell all.
Pheasants? Pah. South Dakota, Kansas and Iowa are where it happens. Anywhere else is an "also ran".
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Backwoods huh? lol id love to go there sumtime but they kicked me n my dad out for "rapid fire" (more than one round every 2 seconds). It sucked to cause we had better groups that the dude with the deer rifle and i was using a M48 mauser lol
:O
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Originally posted by Toad
.308 is a far better deer cartridge than .223. Those energy stats tell all.
Pheasants? Pah. South Dakota, Kansas and Iowa are where it happens. Anywhere else is an "also ran".
Whats the average white tail deer weigh 100lbs or less?
And the 223 was made for killing people wich on average weigh in at 160lbs or there a bouts.
Of coures a larger calibur will do better heck I would bet money that a 338 lapua would do much better than the 308.
Its all about shot placement and if you can can shoot worth a dang you can take white tails with a 223.
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Added another gun to the collection.
Got a springfeild XD 45gap :)
(http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/xd-pistol/gap/4in/XD9504.jpg)
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iz pretty :)
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Sorry, I forgot. You're from Texas and you're talking about "sandwich deer."
It just amazing how unsung the .223 is as the world's best deer cartridge, isn't it? I mean you'd think it'd get way more press than it does.
The fact that it's the absolute minimum cartridge in just about every state's regulations is just mean and unfair too.
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Hey Toad, .223 is just fine for deer, just flip your selector to Auto and fire a couple of bursts, you'll get your deer :rolleyes:
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Robert Ruark wrote a great novel called "Use Enough Gun". It's a great read in and of itself and it has the bonus of conveying some of the timeless truths of hunting itself. Recommended.
This is more than the record of a lifetime's bag; it is the story of a man's education as a hunter. The lessons that Ruark learned from his grandfather still applied when he shot his first lion on safari in Africa, more than twenty years later. Then there were new lessons to be learned from Harry Selby, the Kenyan professional who became Ruark's close friend. Ruark hunted in India and Alaska, in Mozambique and Uganda, Kenya and Tanganyika. SP.
As for the .223, there's a reason that it is at or near the minimum for deer in every state. It's because it's barely adequate.
Oh, it might be OK for the short shots at small deer as our resident Texan suggests. But it's definitely lacking on big deer at long distance. It's under 1000 ft/lbs at 200 yards in the 55 gr loadings and at 300 it's ~760.
Sure isn't something I'd use on a 250 lb live weight Kansas whitetail running at 300 yards, fer shure dude.
And yes, I have taken one of those, thank you very much. Wasn't with a .223 though.
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Originally posted by Toad
Sure isn't something I'd use on a 250 lb live weight Kansas whitetail running at 300 yards, fer shure dude.
Only thing to say about the above is Iresponsable at best.
I only take humane shots and trying to get a kill shot at a running target 300yds away is just silly.
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Originally posted by Toad
Sorry, I forgot. You're from Texas and you're talking about "sandwich deer."
It just amazing how unsung the .223 is as the world's best deer cartridge, isn't it? I mean you'd think it'd get way more press than it does.
The fact that it's the absolute minimum cartridge in just about every state's regulations is just mean and unfair too.
I fing those that need a larger cartridge are those who frankly cant shoot well.
I guess a tow missil or RPG would be the best huh:huh
A 69grn rnd going 3.200 ft per sec will do just fine on a white tail deer up to 500yds.
I have see clowns out there with 300 win mags that get off a crappy shot and have to track there wounded deer.
I have never had to walk for more than 50ft from point of impact.
hate to be a snob but if you cant make a clean kill take up another hobby.
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Originally posted by Toad
Robert Ruark wrote a great novel called "Use Enough Gun". It's a great read in and of itself and it has the bonus of conveying some of the timeless truths of hunting itself. Recommended.
Im willing to bet he is talking about large african game as in rhinos and lions and such.
Making that compareson to white tail deer hunting at short range is silly.
Maybe next year I will get hold of an M1-A1 abrams now that should be enough gun:rofl
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Only thing to say about the above is Iresponsable at best.
I only take humane shots and trying to get a kill shot at a running target 300yds away is just silly.
Lol. This must be the old Towd.
Here, think on this. 5 elk taken, closest about 250, farthest 475. Only the close one was standing still. Never shot at an elk that wasn't bagged.
I can't help it if you didn't shoot at running jackrabbits with a .22 as a kid. There's a difference between shooters and riflemen I guess.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
hate to be a snob but if you cant make a clean kill take up another hobby.
Well, you are a snob; at least you're an ignorant one though.
Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
69 gr 3000 2720 2457 2209 1975 1758 Velocity
69 gr 1379 1133 925 747 598 473
Factory loaded .223 Rem 69 gr has < 500 foot pounds of energy at 500 yards. Not to mention being 45 inches low at 500 when zeroed for 200. Yeah, GREAT deer round. NOT.
I just suprised you're not writing articles for the gun magazines with all you knowledge.
:rofl
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http://www.fishandhunttexas.com/debate_over_22_center.htm
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Originally posted by Toad
Lol. This must be the old Towd.
Here, think on this. 5 elk taken, closest about 250, farthest 475. Only the close one was standing still. Never shot at an elk that wasn't bagged.
I can't help it if you didn't shoot at running jackrabbits with a .22 as a kid. There's a difference between shooters and riflemen I guess.
He spells to good to be the old towd, plus he does not use neocon as every other word.
It's clearly Mrsniperblack.
It's all in his posting style and how in every post he has to be better then everyone else. Go read the roadwarrior thread for a good laugh, this time instead of a supersniper he is an X cop.
Won't be as fun to watch the melt down this time though, the MPs I am sure will kill nuke it.
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, you are a snob; at least you're an ignorant one though.
Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
69 gr 3000 2720 2457 2209 1975 1758 Velocity
69 gr 1379 1133 925 747 598 473
Factory loaded .223 Rem 69 gr has < 500 foot pounds of energy at 500 yards. Not to mention being 45 inches low at 500 when zeroed for 200. Yeah, GREAT deer round. NOT.
I just suprised you're not writing articles for the gun magazines with all you knowledge.
:rofl
Let me quote the sierra reloading manual for ya on a 69grn.
using Viht powder at 26.5 gns you have a muzzel velo of 3.100 and energy of 1.473 ft lbs.
These are striaght from the manual not outta someones arse.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Im willing to bet he is talking about large african game as in rhinos and lions and such.
And I'm willing to bet you've never read the book and have no idea what's in it.
Ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy your bliss.
Or educate yourself.
.22 Caliber "Big Game" Rifle Cartridges by Chuck Hawks (http://www.chuckhawks.com/22big_game_cartridges.htm)
When Remington introduced the .223, which one month later was adopted by the U.S. military as the 5.56mm NATO cartridge, they intended it for use on varmints and loaded bullets specifically intended for that purpose. But many inexperienced hunters falsely assumed that if the .223 were good enough for the Armed Forces to use on enemy soldiers, it must be powerful enough for deer hunting.
Nothing could be farther from the truth, as the requirements for a modern military cartridge are quite different from those of a modern medium game cartridge. Hunters do not use fully automatic weapons, or lay down fire-suppressing barrages, or have ammunition air lifted to them by helicopter. Hunters are not interested in causing "casualties," they need one shot kills.
Use my "Optimal Ranges for Big Game" chart to compare the killing power of the .223 Remington with a 60 grain Nosler Partition bullet (probably the deadliest bullet suitable for the caliber) to cartridges like the .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, .250 Savage, .257 Roberts, or even the old .25-35. You will find that the numbers are not encouraging.
.22 caliber bullets have some serious drawbacks for use on medium game such as deer, antelope, sheep, and goats. Most obvious is their very small cross sectional area...
...I have spent time discussing the .224 TTH to illustrate some of the drawbacks inherent in even the best .22 caliber big game cartridge. To make any .22 caliber rifle cartridge even marginally suitable for North American deer and antelope hunting requires sacrifices in areas such as bullet cross sectional area, sectional density, killing power, and availability of rifles, ammunition, and reloading components for precious little gain in recoil reduction.
Many experts believe that even the popular .24 caliber cartridges are inadequate for deer hunting due to insufficient bullet cross sectional area. I am not among them. I do think, however, that .243/6mm represents the minimum practical bore diameter for hunting North American deer, antelope, sheep, and goats.
But what does Chuck Hawks know, right? I mean you are WAY more qualified than he is.
And then there's that pesky FACT that the .223 is an absolute minimum cartridge for deer BY LAW in about every state that allows deer hunting. What do all those Game and Fish departments know anyway, right?
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Originally posted by Toad
And then there's that pesky FACT that the .223 is an absolute minimum cartridge for deer BY LAW in about every state that allows deer hunting. What do all those Game and Fish departments know anyway, right?
Its more the pesky fact that the majority of "hunters" cant shoot for chit.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Let me quote the sierra reloading manual for ya.
using Viht powder at 26.5 gns you have a muzzel velo of 3.100 and energy of 1.473 ft lbs.
These are striaght from the manual not outta someones arse.
Here, arse... some "straight outta" for ya.
I think even you can figure out how to use them.
Remington's factory ballistic charts - the place I got that data posted above. So it's right outta "Remington's Arse". What the hell does Remington know about the cartridge it invented, anyway? Right? You tell 'em buddy!
Ballistics Comparison Charts (http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/)
Well, how about Winchester..... Winchester .223 Light Game Loads (http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrlist.aspx?cart=MjIzIFJlbWluZ3Rvbg==&use=7)
Gee.. they don't have ANY .223 rounds that they list as suitable for even CXP2 - Light Game. :rofl They DO have VARMINT loads for it though. But what the hell does Winchester know?
Maybe Federal...
Federal .223 Ballistics (http://www.federalcartridge.com/ballistics/Ammo_Search.aspx)
Their Premium 60 gr bullet at 500 yards has an amazing velocity of 1403 fps and a WHOPPING 262 ft/lbs of energy. That's a real killer. Heck at 300 it's down to, you guessed it, 532 ft/lbs.
It's a weak cartridge for deer. Period. Even little bitty 100 lb deer.
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Toad,
You just don't understand, he is just a better shot then you! He can prolly BBQ better to, just ask! ;)
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Its more the pesky fact that the majority of "hunters" cant shoot for chit.
Hardly.
Bet you can't find any reputable source that claims the .223 is anything more than barely adequate for deer.
You're talking the talk. Put up or shut up.
Let's see some data, some support for your argument.
Show us some articles claiming the .223 Remington is a fine deer cartridge.
Other than one you wrote, of course. :rofl
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
I belive the current 1000 yard champ used a 300 win mag.
The 300win mag is a long distance cartridge.
You can use a 223 on white tail in tx.
But in Colorado for mule dear I think they require a 30 cal.
I was at 50 yds when I shot the steal.
I often put up groups that you could cover with your thumb nail with my 223.
Both the bulletts and brass cost more for the 308 also large rifle primers are more so shot for shot it is more expensive.
I must correct myself on this one.
The new record is with a 6mm
http://www.6mmbr.com/page/page/1309618.htm
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Originally posted by Toad
Hardly.
Bet you can't find any reputable source that claims the .223 is anything more than barely adequate for deer.
You're talking the talk. Put up or shut up.
Let's see some data, some support for your argument.
Show us some articles claiming the .223 Remington is a fine deer cartridge.
Other than one you wrote, of course. :rofl
Heres the one you missed
http://www.fishandhunttexas.com/debate_over_22_center.htm
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Toad,
You just don't understand, he is just a better shot then you! He can prolly BBQ better to, just ask! ;)
Put up or pipe down.
(http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/8792/tg0028yf.th.jpg) (http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tg0028yf.jpg)
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Originally posted by Toad
Here, think on this. 5 elk taken, closest about 250, farthest 475. Only the close one was standing still. Never shot at an elk that wasn't bagged.
Talk is cheap there dead eye:rofl
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
He spells to good to be the old towd, plus he does not use neocon as every other word.
It's clearly Mrsniperblack.
It's all in his posting style and how in every post he has to be better then everyone else. Go read the roadwarrior thread for a good laugh, this time instead of a supersniper he is an X cop.
Won't be as fun to watch the melt down this time though, the MPs I am sure will kill nuke it.
deleted out of respect
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Super-Duper Shortie, .223 WSSM (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/super_duper_shortie/)
from Guns & Ammo by Dan Johnson
...Game was taken, and reports on shot placement, bullet path and the animal's reactions were enough to reaffirm my conviction that the .22 bore will take deer with proper bullets and precisely placed shots but is not a deer cartridge per se. At least, not an ideal one.
...My only reservation with using the .22 caliber on deer is that it limits the hunter's options. I personally passed on a monster buck on the Wingmead hunt due to a less-than-perfect opportunity for a well-placed broadside shot. Most any centerfire will work with a classic behind-the-shoulders lung shot, but trophy whitetail bucks tend to offer fleeting opportunities at odd angles--if they present opportunities at all. That's why I like a bullet with a bit more frontal mass and penetration than the .22 provides.
The cartridge will likely gain some popularity as a deer round in Texas, where the .223 and .22-250 are already quite popular. But Texas deer are on the small side mostly, and the hunting style there makes perfect broadside shots the norm. While I don't see the .223 Winchester Super Short Magnum (WSSM) as a great dual-purpose round, as some are already claiming, it does promise to be an outstanding varmint cartridge that will, under ideal circumstances, take deer-size game.[/b]
"it does promise to be an outstanding varmint cartridge that will, under ideal circumstances, take deer-size game".
And THAT'S a .223 WSSM that shoots 64-grain Power-Point at 3,600 fps, 500 fps FASTER than the load you quoted.
Focus on this fact: Yet another author saying "the .22 bore will take deer with proper bullets and precisely placed shots but is not a deer cartridge per se". This is referenced to KILLING POWER, not "average hunter accuracy".
Maybe your love affair with the .223 stems from your Texas way of hunting little bitty deer.
Let me guess... you're a "stand" type hunter not averse to hunting in areas where game feeders bring the deer into so you can get a shot at a contentedly grazing small animal at extreme short range (<100yards)?
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I never claimed I was a good shot, in fact I have claimed the oposite here for some time.
See, unlike you, I dont have to run around on the internet yelling look at me I am a "sniper, or good shot, or spandex biker tough guy, or cop or diver etc".
I do have the common sense to know that posting a target on the internet with no way to prove it is yours is not proof an therefore would not do it.
Nor would I post fake government papers to prove I was a sniper, nor would I post fake diver paper work to prove I was a diver.
You know if you stopped being such a fake, internet tough guy, and then got your ego under control you wouldn't have to come back with a new ID every few months.
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Your using 500yds as the bench mark.
I said up to 500yds and yes if you hit a deer in the right spot he will die.
I have taken small russian boars 250-350lbs with my 223.
Granted I was no further away than 50yds but these animales have very thick
cartiledge surrounding there vital built up from fighting so shot placement is evrything.
Now if you go back to the beginning I was simply telling who ever it was that If you are not hunting anything bigger than white tail a 223 is fine.
Also if he planned on shooting alot a 223 simply cost less to shoot there fore giving you more range time wich IMHO is far more important than the size of you gun.
What is it they say about men with big guns:rofl
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
One word fat boy ! jenny craig:rofl
That is two words. But we all know your not real bright, you make it clear in just about every post.
I may be fat, but atleast I am not a guy who has to make things up to try and look better then a bunch of guys on a game bbs.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Heres the one you missed
http://www.fishandhunttexas.com/debate_over_22_center.htm
From your chosen article: (Did YOU read it?)
All cartridges have certain limitations and the 22 center-fires are no exception. Even with the factory ammunition and bullets of more robust construction and slightly heavier weights in some cases. These rounds still lack some of the aspects more traditional cartridges have always had.
The obvious is caliber. Which lacks frontal diameter and weight. The frontal diameter being small means, even if the bullet performs well and mushrooms properly wound channels will likely be small. Being lighter weight these bullets will have less momentum to penetrate thru bone and less likely to give a reliable exit on less than favorable angles thru the body. Another disadvantage to lightweight bullets is their inability to retain energy over long distances.
Even with the high muzzle velocities energy drops off significantly after 100 yards. Another factor to consider is lightweight bullets are also more subject to the effects of wind, rain, and other in field elements. This reduces the effective range of what was a 300-400 yard coyote rifle to around 100-200 yard maximum hunting rifle requiring critical shot placement.
With all these factors stacked against these little cartridges. Why would anyone consider them for hunting deer? Some are drawn to a challenge, but I think it’s mainly because these cartridges are generally accurate and felt recoil is very light.
So, if you've read the article even you should understand that the author is saying the .22 CF's as a whole are barely adequate and then ONLY if the shots are close to 100 yards at the most. You did see this part right?
Another disadvantage to lightweight bullets is their inability to retain energy over long distances
Again, in your Texas case with little bitty 100 lb deer posing sideways by the Game Feeder at 65 yards it probably works. But that is a pretty isolated case in the universe of deer hunting.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I never claimed I was a good shot, in fact I have claimed the oposite here for some time.
See, unlike you, I dont have to run around on the internet yelling look at me I am a "sniper, or good shot, or spandex biker tough guy, or cop or diver etc".
I do have the common sense to know that posting a target on the internet with no way to prove it is yours is not proof an therefore would not do it.
Nor would I post fake government papers to prove I was a sniper, nor would I post fake diver paper work to prove I was a diver.
You know if you stopped being such a fake, internet tough guy, and then got your ego under control you wouldn't have to come back with a new ID every few months.
Deleted out of respect.
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Debate over 22 Center-Fires for Deer
By Clay Oldham
It seems there has always been, and probably always will be, a debate as to whether or not 22 caliber center fire cartridges are adequate as “deer” rounds. With the recent introduction of new bullets, ammunition and cartridges the issue is getting more and more attention. In the state of Texas 22 center fire cartridges are legal for hunting deer. The TP&W Outdoor Annual states under the “Means and Methods” section concerning firearms: Game animals and game birds may be hunted with any legal firearm, EXCEPT: white-tailed deer, mule deer, desert bighorn sheep, and pronghorn antelope may NOT be hunted with rim-fire ammunition of any caliber. Personally I believe anyone hunting deer or similar game with a rim-fire round should be beaten thoroughly and have their trigger finger chopped off at the knuckle. There is no excuse for this highly unethical practice in today’s hunting environment. Outside of the center fire rounds being legal there is also the issue of these rounds being ethical. I believe they are within their limitations. Cartridges such as the 223 Remington, 22 –250 Remington, 220 Swift and the new 223 WSSM (Winchester Super Short Magnum), commonly thought of as varmint rounds, can quickly and humanly take deer. Provided the hunter is willing to be patient and accurately place his or her shot.
Winchester and Federal are currently cataloging 22 caliber rounds marketed as suitable for light thin-skinned game. Winchester has two offerings one in 223 Remington and the other in 223 WSSM. Both loads share the same bullet, a 64-grain Super-X Power Point (SX-PP). Winchester even has a picture of a deer on the end of the box of these loads. Speer’s 55-grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) is the bullet Federal uses in its loads for this category. One in 223 Remington as well as one in 22-250 Remington. I did check the Remington catalog, but found no loadings being marketed as “deer” rounds in any of their 22 caliber center fire offerings. I also didn’t find any loading for the 220 Swift by any manufacturer being recommended as a “deer” load. The bullets mentioned above in the Winchester and Federal factory loads are also available for hand loading. Another 22-caliber “hunting “ bullet is the 60-grain Partition from Nosler. I was curious to see how these cartridges stacked up on paper to the more traditional rounds commonly thought of as suitable for deer. The results can be seen in the following chart.
Cartridge Description
Muzzle (fps)/(ft lbs)
100 (yards)
200 (yards)
300 (yards)
Winchester, 223 Rem 64-gr SX-PP
3090/1357
2684/1024
2312/760
1971/552
Winchester, 223 WSSM 64-gr SX-PP
3600/1841
3144/1404
2732/1061
2356/789
Federal, 223 Rem 55-gr TBBC
3100/1175
2630/845
2210/595
1830/410
Federal, 22-250 Rem 55-gr TBBC
3600/1585
3080/1155
2610/835
2190/590
Remington, 22-250 Rem 55-gr PSP*
3680/1654
3137/1201
2656/861
2222/603
220 Swift 55-gr **
3900/1857
3469/1469
3079/1157
2721/904
Winchester, 270 Win 130-gr
3050/2685
2828/2309
2618/1978
2416/1685
Federal, 7mm-08 Rem 140-gr
2800/2440
2610/2135
2430/1840
2260/1590
30-06 Springfield 165-gr ***
2800/2872
2579/2463
2367/2053
2167/1720
· * Load is shown for data purposes only. Remington makes no recommendation of this being a “deer” load.
· ** Personal hand load I use in my 220 Swift.
· *** Personal hand load I use in my 30-06 Springfield.
All cartridges have certain limitations and the 22 center-fires are no exception. Even with the factory ammunition and bullets of more robust construction and slightly heavier weights in some cases. These rounds still lack some of the aspects more traditional cartridges have always had. The obvious is caliber. Which lacks frontal diameter and weight. The frontal diameter being small means, even if the bullet performs well and mushrooms properly wound channels will likely be small. Being lighter weight these bullets will have less momentum to penetrate thru bone and less likely to give a reliable exit on less than favorable angles thru the body. Another disadvantage to lightweight bullets is their inability to retain energy over long distances. Even with the high muzzle velocities energy drops off significantly after 100 yards. Another factor to consider is lightweight bullets are also more subject to the effects of wind, rain, and other in field elements. This reduces the effective range of what was a 300-400 yard coyote rifle to around 100-200 yard maximum hunting rifle requiring critical shot placement. With all these factors stacked against these little cartridges. Why would anyone consider them for hunting deer? Some are drawn to a challenge, but I think it’s mainly because these cartridges are generally accurate and felt recoil is very light. We’ve all seen hunters using larger rounds and “jerking” the trigger or “flinching” in anticipation of the recoil. I believe a person should hunt with a gun they can shoot accurately and put power second, given the cartridge is adequate for the game they are hunting and the situation. One well-placed shot is far better than five or six poorly placed ones. I’ve said many times all the power in the world is wasted if not placed properly.
Theories and on-paper ballistics of 22 CF rounds are good for discussion purposes, but what really counts is how they perform in the field. I’ve used my 220 Swift to take a number of white-tailed doe. The breaking of dawn one particularly cold December morning in the 2002-2003 hunting season found me seated in box blind waiting for an opportunity to fill a doe tag. As light began to gradually filter over the frost covered grass and sparse Mesquite bushes I saw 3 white-tailed doe moving through the cover. I picked out the largest of the 3 and began to wait for right opportunity for a shot at her. She was standing face on about 70 yards away with her head up. I settled the cross hairs of the scope just below the white on her neck and began to squeeze the trigger. A sudden flash of orange and it was all over. She collapsed in the grass and never moved. Upon inspection, I found several of the vertebrae in her neck had been destroyed and the major arteries had been ruptured. About a month later while hunting wild hogs in east Texas. I decided to try for a hog with my Kimber 84M Varmint in 22-250 Remington. Just before dark, perched in a blind overlooking a field adjacent to big bottom. I saw several hogs enter the field from the thick cover about 200 yards from me. One was a nice sow around 200 lbs or so. I watched her for several minuets as she was feeding and moving up the hill towards me. Once she had worked her way within about 100 yards. I shouldered my rifle and prepared to take a shot. I watched her through the scope until she put her head down to feed. She never heard the report of the rifle as the little bullet struck her between the eyes, killing her before “quick” could get started. Wild hogs are some of the hardest animals to bring down cleanly. I’ve taken a number of them with my 22-250’s, all head and neck shots I might add, and have yet to have one take a step. My good friend and hunting partner “Wild Bill” used his DPMS Panther Extreme Super Bull in 223 Remington to cleanly take a large doe on one our hunting trips. The doe was 85 yards from him as he touched off the shot. He placed the shot through her chest. Upon entry the bullet stuck the shoulder blade, which is not what you want, but it still broke into the chest cavity. Proving that these little bullets have more penetration capabilities than I originally gave them credit for having. The doe staggered a short distance and fell. When we field dressed her the damage done to the vital organs far surpassed what is commonly found with much larger rounds like the 270 Winchester or 30-06 Springfield.
I’m not trying to recommend everyone run out and start using one of these 22 rounds for their uses, quite the contrary, only to realize the effectiveness of these cartridges when properly used and the challenge of hunting with them. Hunter’s are always looking for challenges, which is why the number of Archery and Handgun hunters is on the rise. Hunting with a 22 center-fire challenges hunters to make precise shot placements and to be honest with themselves and their abilities. Also being aware of the bullets construction and how that bullet will perform on game. This means waiting for the right opportunity or passing the shot all together. Things we should all do regardless of what we choose as a hunting tool.
Back to Articles
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Now if you go back to the beginning I was simply telling who ever it was that If you are not hunting anything bigger than white tail a 223 is fine.
Which is, to put a point on it, incorrect in most cases.
Again, it may be "fine" on a little bitty 100 lb deer taken at 65 yards from a blind unawares as he grazes under the Game feeder. Some people even call that "hunting" I guess. Whatever blows your skirt up.
However, the .223 is not a "fine" deer cartridge except in very specific short range circumstances like that one.
It has nothing to do with "average hunter accuracy" either. It has to do with the size of deer likely to be taken. It has to do with retained energy at 200, 300 and even 400 yards. It has to do with the size of the wound channel, sectional density. Boring stuff like that.
Stuff that every reputable writer, even the one you linked, shows the .223 Rem as deficient.
You've yet to show a writer saying the .223 is a "fine" all around deer cartridge from Atlantic to Pacific, Canada to Mexico.
That's because there aren't any writers willing to put something so foolish in print.
But feel free to type away yourself.
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Originally posted by Toad
he .223 Rem as deficient.
You've yet to show a writer saying the .223 is a "fine" all around deer cartridge from Atlantic to Pacific, Canada to Mexico.
But feel free to type away yourself.
I never said "all around" deer cartridge I said white tail and smaller game.
Most white tail are no bigger than a large dog.
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Ya know what GTO I apologise for the fat comments its just that I dont like being accused of being someone else.
I can see this fellow you seem to think I am has been banned.
Now for one minute do you think skuzzy would be so stupid as to let him back on?
Skuzzy knows whos IP address are who's.
So I feel rather sure that Skuzzy has made sure that the Mr Black thing is in the history books.
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Toad lets just say we disagree on this one.
Yes texas deer "hunting" is a comedy at best compared to the mule deer hunting I did years ago in Colo when I lived there.
In that case I used my fathers 308 norma magnum but we all know mule deer hunting in Colo and white tail hunting in Tx are two completly different things.
One is sport and the other is simply harvesting .
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Originally posted by Toad
Let me guess... you're a "stand" type hunter not averse to hunting in areas where game feeders bring the deer into so you can get a shot at a contentedly grazing small animal at extreme short range (<100yards)?
sounds about right to me ;)
Originally posted by Fart
I said up to 500yds and yes if you hit a deer in the right spot he will die
Fart - from your article
Being lighter weight these bullets will have less momentum to penetrate thru bone and less likely to give a reliable exit on less than favorable angles thru the body. Another disadvantage to lightweight bullets is their inability to retain energy over long distances. Even with the high muzzle velocities energy drops off significantly after 100 yards. Another factor to consider is lightweight bullets are also more subject to the effects of wind, rain, and other in field elements. This reduces the effective range of what was a 300-400 yard coyote rifle to around 100-200 yard maximum hunting rifle requiring critical shot placement.
...seated in box blind waiting for an opportunity to fill a doe tag.....She was standing face on about 70 yards away with her head up.
....perched in a blind overlooking a field ... I watched her for several minuets as she was feeding and moving up the hill towards me. Once she had worked her way within about 100 yards. I shouldered my rifle and prepared to take a shot. I watched her through the scope until she put her head down to feed.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
I never said "all around" deer cartridge I said white tail and smaller game.
Most white tail are no bigger than a large dog.
Most TEXAS whitetail.
It's not a good whitetail cartridge EXCEPT on little bitty deer like you shoot, at short little ranges like you shoot, at unaware deer taken from a blind at extreme short range.
Even then it's not "good", it's merely "adequate".
Ever taken a really big whitetail with your mighty .223? 200+ pounds? Ever? At ranges out to 300 yards? If not, you're just ..what did you say before... talking "outta your arse"?
A guy up in Nebraska killed a 412 lb Whitetail. How would you like to be holding your mighty .223 when that deer walked out across a cut cornfield at 300 yards? The trophy of a lifetime and you're, sadly, way undergunned.
Again, the .223 Rem is not a "good" whitetail cartridge EXCEPT on little bitty deer like you shoot, at short little ranges like you shoot, at unaware deer taken from a blind at extreme short range.
Even then it's not "good", it's merely "adequate".
And just about everybody in the gun business recognizes that.
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Yes airscrew thats my point.
I think if you see on common thread in all these articals it is shot placement.
It is common sense to not shot any game animal with a light load in a bone area or atleast it should be.
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Originally posted by Toad
Most TEXAS whitetail.
It's not a good whitetail cartridge EXCEPT on little bitty deer like you shoot, at short little ranges like you shoot, at unaware deer taken from a blind at extreme short range.
Even then it's not "good", it's merely "adequate".
Ever taken a really big whitetail with your mighty .223? 200+ pounds? Ever? At ranges out to 300 yards? If not, you're just ..what did you say before... talking "outta your arse"?
A guy up in Nebraska killed a 412 lb Whitetail. How would you like to be holding your mighty .223 when that deer walked out across a cut cornfield at 300 yards? The trophy of a lifetime and you're, sadly, way undergunned.
Again, the .223 Rem is not a "good" whitetail cartridge EXCEPT on little bitty deer like you shoot, at short little ranges like you shoot, at unaware deer taken from a blind at extreme short range.
Even then it's not "good", it's merely "adequate".
And just about everybody in the gun business recognizes that.
And again you are attempting to read more into what I am saying than there is.
Perhapes if conditions were right I might take a 300yd shot at a N texas whitetail.
But there would have to be no wind no rain and the dear would have to present itself in such a manner I could get a shot to the vitals cleanly.
Agreed I never have liked using blinds or tree stands like i said I concider this harvesting and not hunting.
There is no such thing as hunting with out a stalk being involved.
So is Mule deer or elk hunting in the rockies more of a challenge?
You bet it is but perhapes the reason I use the 223 in tx is because I enjoy the challege and It has never let me down yet
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No, the common thread is that the .223 is NOT an adequate whitetail cartridge unless:
1. The deer is very small
2. The deer is taken at extreme short range
3. The shot is carefully placed.
Yet you continue to insist the .223 is "fine" for whitetail even though every intelligent article on the subject places these major restrictive qualifications on its use.
It's isn't an adequate whitetail deer cartridge except in very specific, very limited circumstances.
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Shot placement is never a bad thing and we dont disagree on shot placement. Where we disagree is no matter how you look at the .223 it is not adequate for Deer hunting. Its on the fringe, and as Toad has said, if your buck is more than 200 yards away, wave good bye. When I used the 300 win mag w/ 180 grn or 220 grn bullet I didn't have to worry about distance, I dont have to worry bone. And I still only need one shot, and I still have to have shot placement. Just because its a bigger caliber doesnt mean I can be sloppy.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
You bet it is but perhapes the reason I use the 223 in tx is because I enjoy the challege and It has never let me down yet
Which is a far cry from saying the .223 is a "fine" deer cartridge.
What you seem to be saying is the .223 is a "fine" deer cartridge for
1. you
on
2. small Texas whitetails
at
3. stationary or near stationary deer
Again, that's an incredibly limited scenario when considering the universe of whitetail hunting.
So, tell us...what's the largest live weight deer you have taken with a .223, what was the range and was it stationary/near stationary when you took the shot?
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Originally posted by Toad
No, the common thread is that the .223 is NOT an adequate whitetail cartridge unless:
1. The deer is very small
2. The deer is taken at extreme short range
3. The shot is carefully placed.
Yet you continue to insist the .223 is "fine" for whitetail even though every intelligent article on the subject places these major restrictive qualifications on its use.
It's isn't an adequate whitetail deer cartridge except in very specific, very limited circumstances.
Dude im talking about what I do ! Not what the rest of the world does.
And again try and stay with me on this.
I agree with your comments in 1.2.3
So yes the 223 is fine for whitetail if again you are sure of your shot placement.
I will always believe that shot placement is more important than calibur size.
In fact I could if I was insane enough to try kill a kodiak bear with a 22 rimfire.
Granted I would have to ram it up his are and pull the trigger but it would be done.
Silly analogy i know but you get my point.
Could I take a mullie with a 223 yes.
Would I ever try to NO.
You have to understand that the N texas whitetail is not only not that big but they lack the toughness of other deer like Mule deer.
I have see mullie rune for 100 yds after being hit by my father weatherby 300 mag.
And I think we can agree that that is plenty of gun.
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Originally posted by Toad
Which is a far cry from saying the .223 is a "fine" deer cartridge.
What you seem to be saying is the .223 is a "fine" deer cartridge for
1. you
on
2. small Texas whitetails
at
3. stationary or near stationary deer
Again, that's an incredibly limited scenario when considering the universe of whitetail hunting.
So, tell us...what's the largest live weight deer you have taken with a .223, what was the range and was it stationary/near stationary when you took the shot?
Ofcoures Im saying for just me.
I cant speak for anyone else but myself now can I?
Largest was 143lbs 255yds est and I was prone.
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Originally posted by Airscrew
Shot placement is never a bad thing and we dont disagree on shot placement. Where we disagree is no matter how you look at the .223 it is not adequate for Deer hunting. Its on the fringe, and as Toad has said, if your buck is more than 200 yards away, wave good bye. When I used the 300 win mag w/ 180 grn or 220 grn bullet I didn't have to worry about distance, I dont have to worry bone. And I still only need one shot, and I still have to have shot placement. Just because its a bigger caliber doesnt mean I can be sloppy.
I agree with the addition that if the shooter can make a clean shot to the vitals in that case it is adequate.
But if he is the typical dude that shoots a couple times a year and then goes hunting then probably not.
But I tend to spend one full day a week at the range so and im really not trying to brag here but shot placement is easy with me as I know this weapon inside and out I built it.
I also have worked out all the doping on this weapon and load.
I also spend a cpuple hours a night reloading I never use factory ammo.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Talk is cheap there dead eye:rofl
Missed that one on the first pass.
Been there, done that. Got the snapshots and the witnesses.
Sorry if you feel it's "impossible". BTW it wasn't with a .223. It was a .300 Wby with a custom ballistically compensated reticle Leupold 3x9.
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Another good artical on the 223 and white tails
http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootingtimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=4836
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Originally posted by Toad
Missed that one on the first pass.
Been there, done that. Got the snapshots and the witnesses.
Sorry if you feel it's "impossible". BTW it wasn't with a .223. It was a .300 Wby with a custom ballistically compensated reticle Leupold 3x9.
Take your word for it.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Ofcoures Im saying for just me.
I cant speak for anyone else but myself now can I?
:rofl
Then you need to go back and edit these statements of YOURS:
"Like I said unless he his hunting anything bigger than white tail deer the 223 is just dandy."
"I fing those that need a larger cartridge are those who frankly cant shoot well."
"A 69grn rnd going 3.200 ft per sec will do just fine on a white tail deer up to 500yds."
"Its more the pesky fact that the majority of "hunters" cant shoot for chit."
"Now if you go back to the beginning I was simply telling who ever it was that If you are not hunting anything bigger than white tail a 223 is fine"
Clearly you weren't saying it just for yourself. You're advising others and making fun of those who use something larger and more appropriate for whitetail. And, of course, insulting me throughout the exchange.
However, I accept your admission that you got in way over your head on this one and that you now realize the .223 is a very limited whitetail cartridge.
You're welcome.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Take your word for it.
Oh, I can scan the old snapshot photos if you like.
And pics of the other elk taken by others in the party. NW of Gunnison in either the Red Creek, Soap Creek or Beaver Creek drainages. The group has been going out there the last 30 years or so. I only made a relatively few of the trips.
I assure you, however, folks in that group routinely make 400 yard shots on running elk.
It's funny how people perceive things. If one considers something impossible, it usually is. For them.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Another good artical on the 223 and white tails
http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootingtimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=4836
Note well, the .223 WSSM is much faster than the .223 Rem.
The .223 WSSM will be offered in... a 64-grain PowerPoint at 3600 fps.
These figures compare to.... 3090 fps for the 64-grain bullet in Winchester’s Supreme .223 Remington PowerPoint loading (the only other place Winchester loads that bullet).
The WSSM is 500 fps faster than the .223 Rem.
All of the deer in the "test hunt" were shot at short range. The longest range was the largest buck, a 207 pounder taken at 125 yards. The rest mentioned were extreme short range at smaller deer.
And this with a cartridge SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than the .223 Rem.
Yeah, the .223 Rem will work... at short range. It's not a "fine" cartridge for overall use on whitetail from sea to shining sea, however. Once again, the article points that out.
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Originally posted by Toad
Oh, I can scan the old snapshot photos if you like.
And pics of the other elk taken by others in the party. NW of Gunnison in either the Red Creek, Soap Creek or Beaver Creek drainages. The group has been going out there the last 30 years or so. I only made a relatively few of the trips.
I assure you, however, folks in that group routinely make 400 yard shots on running elk.
It's funny how people perceive things. If one considers something impossible, it usually is. For them.
I have no resone to doubt you as unlike some I give the benefit of the doubt.
I used to hunt over by rangley just west of grand junction might have even slipped into utah once or twice:O
For elk I went to pagosa springs my uncle always knew the good spots.
As far as shooting at a running target i cant say its impossible but I will say it
is irisponsable because I have never heard of anyone being able to do that
with atleast a 90% chance of a kill shot.
I learned to never say never a long time ago as this world still to this day suprises me.
My personal ethics would be to make sure as in as close to a 100% chance of a kill shot I feel I owe the animale that much.
Now I have seen it done though as my uncle did it once hit a doe at around 300yds on a pretty good run or hop but she got hit in the bowels and needless to say we had to track her and dress her out before the meat was ruined.
-
It really comes down to this.
Some hunt with a bow.
Some hunt with blk powder rifles.
Some hunt with pistols.
And then some hunt with light caliburs for the challenge of it.
Otherwise hunting tx deer is just boring.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
As far as shooting at a running target i cant say its impossible but I will say it
is irisponsable because I have never heard of anyone being able to do that
with atleast a 90% chance of a kill shot.
I learned to never say never a long time ago as this world still to this day suprises me.
I suggest you start with jackrabbits and a .22 autoloader and progress from there.
It can be practiced and competency obtained.
The guy that impressed me most in my early days was an excellent rifle shot that could kill a running coyote at 300. And do it routinely.
He could also toss a quarter up in the air with one hand and hit 3 out of 5 or better with a Browning .22 takedown that he bought when he returned from WW2.
So many people thought that was "impossible" he easily paid for the gun suckering people into betting against him. He eventually had to go to shooting dimes to get people to bet against him. Those were tougher and he lost some of the 3/5 bets.
I used to hunt elk with him; he was a rifleman, not a shooter.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
And then some hunt with light caliburs for the challenge of it.
Did you ever think how hypocritical it is of you to condemn those that take a 300 yard running shot on elk with a truly adequate caliber while you promote hunting with what is basically a marginal caliber for the "challenge of it"?
No, otoh, I bet you don't.
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Originally posted by Toad
Did you ever think how hypocritical it is of you to condemn those that take a 300 yard running shot on elk with a truly adequate caliber while you promote hunting with what is basically a marginal caliber for the "challenge of it"?
No, otoh, I bet you don't.
Its only hypocritcal if I try a shot i am not sure of making and I dont.
LOL I bet five outta five trys I can hit the vitals on my static target more than you can on your running target that sir is my point.
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And just so you all dont think Im trying to say im all that here is the target i shot yesterday with the 45 i bought for the wifes carry weapon.
As you can clearly see I suk with a pistola.
(http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/857/trg0037ur.th.jpg) (http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trg0037ur.jpg)
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Its only hypocritcal if I try a shot i am not sure of making and I dont.
LOL I bet five outta five trys I can hit the vitals on my static target more than you can on your running target that sir is my point.
I thought the hypocrisy would escape you.
It's there though.
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Originally posted by Toad
I thought the hypocrisy would escape you.
It's there though.
And logic escapes you im afraid.
Like most folks on the internet you are a legend in your own mind its all to common.
So far all I have seen from you is talk and I have even said I would take you at your word but ofcoures like all of those missing the gear you feel you must keep on with a pissing contest so have fun.
Now back on topic is there anyone in the N texas area that has the time I would welcome you company at backwoods trap this sunday afternoon.
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You spent the entire thread trying to convince people that the .223 Rem is a "fine" deer cartridge. You linked articles that failed to justify that statement.
You now admit that the .223 Rem pretty much sucks for whitetail except in certain very limited and specific circumstances.
Put the happiest face on it that you like.
Take the shots you personally feel comfortable taking.
I'll continue to do the same. Like I said, I have the photographic record and live witnesses that justify the statements of what I have done.
You feel confident taking a shot at deer-sized game that isn't moving at short ranges. Good for you. Congratulate yourself on your abilities and tell yourself what a challenge it is.
I bet you can pee in the average size toilet bowl without missing 99% of the time too.
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Originally posted by Toad
Like I said, I have the photographic record and live witnesses that justify the statements of what I have done.
I must have missed the pics can you post em again?
Oh and dont just google up some lets see the real thing there great white hunter
:rofl
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Originally posted by Toad
Oh, I can scan the old snapshot photos if you like.
Originally posted by fartwinkle
I have no resone to doubt you as unlike some I give the benefit of the doubt.
Changed your mind eh?
I'll dig out the albums and scan a few. This was in the age before digitals, so it'll be scanned snapshots.
But follow along here... you don't know me. You don't know what I look like.
If I do scan and post, are you just going to deny that's me and my elk?
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Just more opinions on the 223 for deer.
http://www.gunownersalliance.com/Rabbi_0303.htm
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=73415
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Originally posted by Toad
Changed your mind eh?
I'll dig out the albums and scan a few. This was in the age before digitals, so it'll be scanned snapshots.
But follow along here... you don't know me. You don't know what I look like.
If I do scan and post, are you just going to deny that's me and my elk?
Well I guess your safe then and have no way of proving anything.
Welcome to the intardnet.
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Oh, I'll scan and post.
I just expect such a polite, thoughtful intardent person like you to disregard the evidence before you.
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Oh look theres more.
Toad safe to say that deer have been taken with 223rems.
Should someone do it? I say it depends on there abilities and there is the challege thats really all im saying.
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/centerfire_22_biggame/
http://www.agfc.state.ar.us/hunterscorner/page10.html
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OH LOOK! There's MORE and it says the EXACT SAME THING!
From the first article:
....In other words, the fastest and flattest of the .22s have about the same effective range on deer as the .30-30....
(Wow... a ringing endorsement there eh?)
.....If you decide to use the smallbores for deer, you must make a commitment to be extremely picky not only about shot placement, but also the acceptable shot presentation. Of course, there are deer and then there are deer. A 100-pound doe or yearling buck is not the same animal as a 300-pound northern buck; you have a bit more latitude in the shots you can take with the former. Because of this, in my mind the .22 centerfires are really not suited for the larger deer, nor for trophy buck hunting anywhere. Rather, they are their best when venison is the main goal, and with absolute priority given to shot placement and presentation.
Looks like he repeats the extreme limitations of the .223:
1. The deer is very small
2. The deer is taken at extreme short range
3. The shot is carefully placed.
All of those are in there. Once again it is not a "fine" cartridge for whitetail. It's a barely adequate cartridge that is "really not suited for the larger deer".
The second link is all pictures, only one mentioning a .223.
I see one where a little girl has killed a fawn the size of a bobcat with a .223. Is that the one that proves this cartridge is only for the highly skilled hunter looking for a challenge and that the .223 is a "fine" whitetail cartridge?
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Oh look theres more.
Toad safe to say that deer have been taken with 223rems.
Should someone do it? I say it depends on there abilities and there is the challege thats really all im saying.
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/centerfire_22_biggame/
http://www.agfc.state.ar.us/hunterscorner/page10.html
This thread is going to be ruined if one of the euro******* looks at that second link! OMG children killing things with guns... at age 10..... OMG we are such iresponsible cowboys!! :D
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I did already post a pic of the elk my son took at Fort Riley with my .300 Wby.
325 yards or a bit more actually.
Use Enough Gun (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137422&perpage=50&highlight=riley&pagenumber=2)
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Originally posted by Toad
I see one where a little girl has killed a fawn the size of a bobcat with a .223. Is that the one that proves this cartridge is only for the highly skilled hunter looking for a challenge and that the .223 is a "fine" whitetail cartridge?
:eek: :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Toad
I see one where a little girl has killed a fawn the size of a bobcat with a .223. Is that the one that proves this cartridge is only for the highly skilled hunter looking for a challenge and that the .223 is a "fine" whitetail cartridge?
yeah this one
She took the 4-point on opening day and the nice 6-point the next afternoon. Both deer were taken in Independence county, the first in zone 8 and the second in zone 6. She was using her mother’s Savage .223.
(http://www.agfc.state.ar.us/hunterscorner/hunterscorner_pix/kaylabowren.jpg)
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Oh I still see no pics of your great shots.
Again talk is cheap show us atleast a time stamped target if ya can:rolleyes:
I see nothing from you but hot air so welcom to the ignore list as you dont seem to have the maturity to handle an honest debate.
Also if anyone cared to read the whole thread I simply asked if anyone wanted to go shooting not to get into an intardnet pissing contest with the under equipped.
And last word on this subject is I have shown many links to folks that have taken white tails with the 223 and you have shown me nothing but some dudes opinion.
And now im suppossed to be somebody called wombat:rofl
Good god man please try to be more creative.
And give Skuzzy more credit will you because if for one minute he thought i was who you think I am he would say bye bye.
And those of you that think your so smart with your shade accounts LOL
man dont you know Skuzzy knows who you are.
Give the dude some credit.
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Yep, looks like she got a couple of smallish bucks. Good for her. Both of them bigger than the fawn the other girl got with a .223.
Now, any info on the range? Nope.
Any info on shooting from a blind? Nope.
Any info on moving/still target? Nope.
No one says a .223 can't kill deer.
Deer have been killed with a .22 Long. That doesn't make the .22 Long a "fine" cartridge for whitetail.
As has been pointed out...by the authors of the very articles YOU post... no one other than you seems to think the .223 Rem is a "fine" whitetail cartridge EXCEPT in certain specific circumstances.
Those circumstances are, of course, smallish deer, short range and easy shots.
To posit that the .223 Rem is a "fine" whitetail cartridge in any other circumstance is laughable.
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Originally posted by Toad
Yep, looks like she got a couple of smallish bucks. Good for her. Both of them bigger than the fawn the other girl got with a .223.
Now, any info on the range? Nope.
Any info on shooting from a blind? Nope.
Any info on moving/still target? Nope.
No one says a .223 can't kill deer.
Deer have been killed with a .22 Long. That doesn't make the .22 Long a "fine" cartridge for whitetail.
As has been pointed out...by the authors of the very articles YOU post... no one other than you seems to think the .223 Rem is a "fine" whitetail cartridge EXCEPT in certain specific circumstances.
Those circumstances are, of course, smallish deer, short range and easy shots.
To posit that the .223 Rem is a "fine" whitetail cartridge in any other circumstance is laughable.
LOL your like a **** that wont flush even when confronted with the facts you still argue the true sign of maturity:rofl
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
LOL your like a **** that wont flush even when confronted with the facts you still argue the true sign of maturity:rofl
Facts? That the .223 REM is a "fine" whitetail cartridge?
I think you're the one ignoring facts. You haven't been able to find a single article that even suggests, let alone recommends, the .223 as a "fine" whitetail cartridge.
All you can dredge up is a very few articles that say a .22 CF will work under certain highly restrictive conditions.
Duh. Yeah, people hunt and kill deer with the .357 magnum too... sure as hell isn't a "fine" whitetail deer cartridge overall. It's a highly restricted cartridge for taking whitetail, just like the .223 REM.
Then you find a pair of pics showing two girls that managed to bag small whitetails with a .223 REM and that becomes your "proof". I guess you noticed the dozens of other pics at that site where people used a more appropriate cartridge. It probably never dawned on you that the .223 users in that group of pics were a tiny minority and were females.
It appears the obvious easily escapes you.
Use whatever you like; please don't try to BS some new hunter into thinking the .223 REM is "fine" cartridge for all whitetail hunting. It simply is not and you haven't found a single thing to show otherwise.
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This is dumb... a 223 rem is a lousy deer cartridge.
Can it kill? sure. When I was starving I killed several bigger deer with a 22 lr out of a High standard pistol with 6" barrel people are killed with 22lr all the time.... on deer fell at about 30 yards fell like he was hit with a 20mm another thrashed aound for a bit and 2 others ran off and probly died ugly... I woulda tracked em but I would risk jail... yeah... I know...real slob but I was literaly starving and so was my wife at the time.
Would I do it a again? Have you ever been hungry? Of course I would.
I am not a hunter...never was.. If I can afford it (and I have so far since those days) I will do my hunting at the supermarket.
When I have hunted (some wild boar as a backup and some deer hunting to appease freinds and some pheasant stuff)..... I take enough gun.
I see no reason to take a puny 223 when you can buy a surplus mauser or nagant or whatever for a few bucks.
As for reloading and the money.... silly... I can buy either small rifle or large rifle primers in bulk for the same price essentialy..
Imr powder and h335 in 8 lb kegs... the Imr is cheaper... you use twice as much of it say in a 308 or even 243 as the 223 but it isn't much money wise..
bullets? bulk soft point .30 cal are cheaper than specialty hunting 22 bullets.... most 22 bullets are either varmit or military or target... only the military btfmj ones are really cheap.
in the end? you might load 223 hunting rounds for 14 cents apiece and .308 ones for 17 cents apiece. hardly worth getting excited about.
I see no reason to hunt anything other than varmits or paper targets with a 223 unless it is the only gun you own. For small people and children a .243 would be much better without much more recoil.
lazs
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toad... a .357 or even 44 mag is good for hunting deer.... at close range. At close range they seem to drop deer and boar better than even high powered rifles but.... our past about 50 yard they start to become an iffy proposition...
I would hope that any handgun hunter would stick to relatively close range shots.
lazs
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This is a good article.
Centerfire .22s For Big Game
They're legal for deer in many states, but should we use them?
By Craig Boddington
Boddington shot this axis deer on the Y.O. Ranch with a Kimber .223. The bullet was a 60-grain Bear Claw and performed perfectly. He cautions, however, that shot placement must be very precise to take game this size with a .22 centerfire.
It was Walter Dalrymple Maitland "Karamoja" Bell who hypothesized that "10 grains in the right place" would do a whole lot more than many times that in the wrong place. He was, of course, absolutely and irrefutably correct. Neither bullet weight, nor bullet energy, velocity or performance in any combination can supplant shot placement.
Smallbore fans always cite Bell because he was the best-known (and possibly most successful) of the smallbore gurus. He used relatively light calibers for most of the 1,000-plus elephants he shot in the early years of this century: 7x57, .303 British, .318 Westley Richards.
However, comparing what we can do to what Bell did is sort of like comparing what we can do with golf clubs against what Tiger Woods does with them. Bell was an extraordinary marksman. He was also a student of animal anatomy. After some early failures he dissected and studied elephant skulls until he understood--and could visualize from any angle--exactly where the brain lay. Whenever you cite Bell, understand that he was not banking on bullet performance and he cared not a whit for foot-pounds. He shot only solids ("The barrel of my .275 Rigby has never been polluted by a softnosed bullet!"), and if the solid reached the brain he had his elephant. And this didn't always work; he expected a failure rate--a wounded animal--due to poor aim or the bullet's failure to hold its line.
continue article
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That was in another century. We cannot accept a failure rate today. With that, let's consider .22 centerfires for deer. The Bell analogy isn't out in left field. Taking a big buck with a .22 is only slightly less optimistic than taking an elephant with a 7x57. Yes, you can do it, but you better know how.
Most states set some kind of restriction on legal arms for deer hunting. The most common, I think, is 6mm. I fervently believe this is the most sensible minimum--not all of us are Karamoja Bell. A smaller number of states allow .22 centerfires and a couple allow "any centerfire," and a .17 Rem. is perfectly legal. I have actually seen a substantial whitetail flattened by a .17 Rem. It was a neck shot, no surprise, but I don't recommend a 25-grain bullet at 4,000 fps for any deer hunting under any circumstances.
The .22s are a different story. They can be used effectively on deer. Nothing said herein is meant to suggest that I condone flaunting game laws. If a .22 is not legal in your area, don't use one. Since they are legal in a number of states, many hunters are going to use them, so this is a worthwhile discussion.
Left to right: .222 Rem., .223 Rem., .22-250 Rem., .220 Swift. If you're using a .22 centerfire for deer, these are among the choices that make the most sense.
There are three things you need to be concerned about: bullet performance, bullet energy, and shot placement (not necessarily in that order).
Bullet Performance
If Bell were to use his old .22 Savage Hi-Power on kudu, he would prefer to load it with a full-metal-jacket bullet. Then he would pierce the brain or skewer the heart with it. In the former case he'd walk up and collect his meat, in the latter he'd follow the tracks a little distance first. We can't do it his way, since non-expanding bullets are illegal for big game in every jurisdiction I'm aware of. We must pollute our barrels with softnosed bullets. If you're bent on using a .22, you must choose your bullet with great care.
Most .22 bullets are intended as varmint bullets; thin-jacketed and very frangible so they come unglued at the slightest resistance. This is just what you don't want in a big-game bullet. You want expansion, sure, because it wrecks the vitals, but you must get the bullet into the vitals and that takes penetration.
.22 Centerfire Heavy-Bullet Loads
Velocity (fps)/Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Bullet Weight Muzzle 100 yds. 200 yds. 300 yds.
.222 Remington 62 gr. 2,887
1,148 2,457
831 2,067
588 1,716
405
.223 Rem. 64 gr. 3, 020
1,296 2,656
1,003 2,320
765 2,009
574
.22-250 60 gr. 3,600
1,727 3,195
1,360 2,826
1,064 2,484
823
.220 Swift 60 gr. 3,600
1,727 3,195
1,360 2,826
1,064 2,484
823
By Comparison
.243 Win. 100 gr. 2,960
1,945 2,697
1,615 2,449
1,332 2,215
1,089
.30-30 150 gr. 2,390
1,902 1,973
1,296 1,605
858 1,303
565
I admit I have taken a number of deer with a .22-250 and standard 55-grain loads. The results can be spectacular. The problem is, the shots that can be taken are extremely limited. So long as you know that, and you're Karamoja for a day, it's okay. It is much better, however, to select bullets designed for the purpose. The good news is that there are several excellent .22-caliber bullets intended for use on larger game. They hold together, penetrate, and greatly expand the range of shots you can safely take.
Most of these bullets are very heavy-for-caliber, 60 grains and more, which also increases penetrating abilities. But be careful: A lot of heavy-for-caliber bullets are match bullets, either hollowpoint or full-metal-jacket, so make sure you select hunting bullets. I have the most experience with the 60-grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, a bullet that expands, holds together and penetrates. I've used it with perfect results in my .223s on game up to axis deer in size. There is a good .22-caliber Barnes X as well, and brand-new 60-grain Nosler Partition, which should be a wonderful deer bullet as .22s go.
Bullet Energy
Since I'm not Karamoja Bell, I can't overlook the basic requirements of bullet energy. No one can say how much, but Colonel Townsend Whelen was an awfully smart man, and I'm willing to accept his theory of 1,000 ft-lbs. at the game. This for small to medium-sized deer. Legal or not, in terms of energy this rules out the .17 Rem., .22 Hornet and .218 Bee; none of which offer 1,000 ft-lbs. at the muzzle. I've seen deer stoned by the .22 Hornet and the .17. Shot placement counts above all, but it's too risky a business for me and I don't want a built-in failure rate.
The accompanying table shows that none of the .22 centerfires are long on energy. What there is drops off very quickly because of the light bullets, so the .22 centerfires are not long-range tools for deer. The .222 doesn't even make 100 yards; the .223 drops below 1,000 ft-lbs. just past 100 yards; the .22-250 and .220 Swift make it to 200 yards just barely. In other words, the fastest and flattest of the .22s have about the same effective range on deer as the .30-30.
Shot Placement
Although I know how to do it and have done it, I am not by nature a head/neck shooter. It's just too risky. The slightest shooter error or the slightest last-minute movement on the part of the animal, and you've inflicted a horrible wound on an animal you may or may not be able to recover. I freely admit that Karamoja Bell was a better man than I'll ever be. So I avoid the head/neck shot, even with super-accurate .22s, unless the range is quite close, the animal is unaware and I'm perfectly steady. It's so ingrained in me to go for the heart/lung shot that I usually don't even think otherwise, even if the conditions are right. There's a difference between the heart shot and lung shot. With a .22 it's a big difference.
To reach the heart from broadside you have to go through the shoulder. To do this with a .22, you must be extremely certain of your bullet. You can do it with the bullets I named and there are others that will also work. But you'd better be certain. The lung shot, right behind the shoulder and avoiding heavy bone, is much more certain and a whole lot safer.
There are also innumerable angles from which the heart and lungs can be reached-but not with a .22. If you decide to use the smallbores for deer, you must make a commitment to be extremely picky not only about shot placement, but also the acceptable shot presentation. Of course, there are deer and then there are deer. A 100-pound doe or yearling buck is not the same animal as a 300-pound northern buck; you have a bit more latitude in the shots you can take with the former. Because of this, in my mind the .22 centerfires are really not suited for the larger deer, nor for trophy buck hunting anywhere. Rather, they are their best when venison is the main goal, and with absolute priority given to shot placement and presentation. Used in this fashion, the .22 centerfires will take down deer like lightning striking. And somewhere Karamoja Bell will be smiling.
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Bla Bla i have killed so many deer with the .222 its not funny. Its my meat gun, one pop in the head our neck next stop is the grill. This year i shot a 385 pound hog with that gun in the face and it didnt move from the spot. If you do use a .223 neck and head shots only.
Record this year with the .222 was 65 deer taken off the mexico ranch. Me and my brother were doing alittle cleaning this year. Spikes does and small 6's and 8's. I have no idea the amount of pigs but in one day i shot 32.
I do have a 300 win mag in the high rack at all times.
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Originally posted by FX1
Bla Bla i have killed so many deer with the .222 its not funny. Its my meat gun, one pop in the head our neck next stop is the grill. This year i shot a 385 pound hog with that gun in the face and it didnt move from the spot. If you do use a .223 neck and head shots only.
Record this year with the .222 was 65 deer taken off the mexico ranch. Me and my brother were doing alittle cleaning this year. Spikes does and small 6's and 8's. I have no idea the amount of pigs but in one day i shot 32.
I do have a 300 win mag in the high rack at all times.
Thank you .
This all Im saying folks its up to the hunter but for me i like the 223 on anything
white tail or smaller And I have never lost one yet.
But it really is up to the hunter on what he wants to use.
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Btw made a 385 shot with the .222 this year. I bought a savage 22.250 so i can take those 500 long bombs next year. Our little dove boys love to bring home the meat for their family so i have no problem shooting them all. This place in mexico is 10000 and is going to be high fence so all the ugly deer must go.
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:rofl
From your own article.. AGAIN:
The accompanying table shows that none of the .22 centerfires are long on energy. What there is drops off very quickly because of the light bullets, so the .22 centerfires are not long-range tools for deer. The .222 doesn't even make 100 yards; the .223 drops below 1,000 ft-lbs. just past 100 yards; the .22-250 and .220 Swift make it to 200 yards just barely. In other words, the fastest and flattest of the .22s have about the same effective range on deer as the .30-30.[/b]
Hardly "fine" whitetail cartridges.... by the admission of the article YOU posted.
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You are trying to manufacture an argument where there isnt one.
I am simply saying that the 223 if fine for me or anyone else who feels they can make a clean shot.
Now if you dont wish to use a 223 thats fine use what you wish.
And as in the articles i linked to there are more than I who use the 223 on whitetails just fine.
And as you have pointed out there are those who feel it is too small.
You know opnions are like areholes everyone has one.
But as long as it remains legal in TX to hunt whitetail with a 223 I will continue to do so as I enjoy the challenge
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I would not go big buck hunting with a .223 but the perfect shot will bring anything dow in North America. Thirty cal our larger for trophy and .22 for meat is my deal. I have been around when some guys have hit a buck at 150 with a 7mm mag and we never did find it. No caliber will ever replace a good shot
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
I am simply saying that the 223 if fine for me or anyone else who feels they can make a clean shot.
That's not the statement you made at the beginning and even that back pedal is not completely correct.
We're ploughing old ground. You even post the same articles that counter your own intial statements.
The .223 REM is a marginal deer cartridge. Period.
IF you shoot small whitetail, at short range, and are very careful with your shot placement it will work. That surely doesn't make it a "fine" whitetail cartridge.
Shot placement is important with any deer cartridge. It is critical with any .22 CF. Every article you've posted says the same thing and anyone with a lick of common sense and any deer hunting experience at all knows it without reading those articles.
Small deer, short range, extremely careful shot placement.
Those are NOT the characteristics of a "fine" whitetail cartridge. They're the charateristics of a minimally adequate deer cartridge, particularly when viewed within the spectrum of whitetail hunting across the US.
Use it all you like, I don't care a whit. It'll work if you stay within its rather significant limitations.
But to suggest it to a new starting-out whitetail hunter as a "fine" whitetail cartridge is just plain BS.
And that's what you were doing, despite your current backpedaling.
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If you want a challenge hunting, go either black powder, bow or handgun. Stay within the limitations of the cartridge or the bow.
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just bought over 2,100 rounds of .308 for $.o68 cents around..
woooooo woooooooooooooo
i look forward to zombie time
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GC, got the Glock Mags.. Thanks!
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
just bought over 2,100 rounds of .308 for $.o68 cents around..
woooooo woooooooooooooo
i look forward to zombie time
LOL... I got 6 cans of the river-bottom indian too and I'm happy as a clam. The cans looked awful; dingy, muddy & just as ugly as sin but when I opened 'em up the ammo was all bright and clean. The stuff shoots great; best ammo buy I ever made.
Thanks for the tip, Green Cloud!
:aok
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Originally posted by Toad
That's not the statement you made at the beginning and even that back pedal is not completely correct.
We're ploughing old ground. You even post the same articles that counter your own intial statements.
The .223 REM is a marginal deer cartridge. Period.
IF you shoot small whitetail, at short range, and are very careful with your shot placement it will work. That surely doesn't make it a "fine" whitetail cartridge.
Shot placement is important with any deer cartridge. It is critical with any .22 CF. Every article you've posted says the same thing and anyone with a lick of common sense and any deer hunting experience at all knows it without reading those articles.
Small deer, short range, extremely careful shot placement.
Those are NOT the characteristics of a "fine" whitetail cartridge. They're the charateristics of a minimally adequate deer cartridge, particularly when viewed within the spectrum of whitetail hunting across the US.
Use it all you like, I don't care a whit. It'll work if you stay within its rather significant limitations.
But to suggest it to a new starting-out whitetail hunter as a "fine" whitetail cartridge is just plain BS.
And that's what you were doing, despite your current backpedaling.
Like i said you just love to argue ande Im done with you.
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mhmmmmm. Oddly enough, his reply to Gtora was oddly familiar. Quick search gave me this. Originally, from "Ain't she a peach thread"
GEEZUS Funked On word dude Jenny Craig
Oh, and so I'm not completely off-topic. Everytime I've went deer hunting, it was a 7mm mag.
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Originally posted by fartwinkle
Like i said you just love to argue ande Im done with you.
Actually, it's not about the argument. It would have been ove a long time ago if you weren't so locked into trying to make the .223 into something it most definitely is not.
I wanted to make sure someone like you didn't lead new hunters astray on what is and is not a "good" whitetail cartridge.
The .223 ISN"T a "good" whitetail cartridge and you've pretty well proven you don't know jack about whitetail hunting on a nationwide basis. It may have taken a while, but you've shown yourself to be a totally unreliable source. So, you're right, the jobs finished.
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If I was hungry enough I would hunt with anything I could get my hands on.
Slaughterhouses round here used to use a 22 rimfire as the caliber of choice for half ton steer.
If you have a decent firearm in a decent caliber tho.... why bother with the 22?
lazs
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Becuase only the uninformed feel that they must have a "big" gun to hunt a small animal its just silly.
Why use a peterbuilt to haul your dirtbike when a toyota pick up will do.
Also like I have said Its the challenge and the fact that I dont blow large chunks of good meat all over the field just because Im such a crappy shot I had to use a cannon.
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Originally posted by Toad
Actually, it's not about the argument. It would have been ove a long time ago if you weren't so locked into trying to make the .223 into something it most definitely is not.
I wanted to make sure someone like you didn't lead new hunters astray on what is and is not a "good" whitetail cartridge.
The .223 ISN"T a "good" whitetail cartridge and you've pretty well proven you don't know jack about whitetail hunting on a nationwide basis. It may have taken a while, but you've shown yourself to be a totally unreliable source. So, you're right, the jobs finished.
LOL hardly I have proven more than you i think.
I have linked to several sites that say there is nothing wrong with using a 223 on white tail if you can make good shot placement.
And I have posted pics of my targets showing the ability to make good shot placement..
You on the other hand have only showed us an opnion of one "expert" and
no evidence of you claims of being anything other that a keyboard commando.
Proof son proof otherwise its all BS.
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Originally posted by Estes
mhmmmmm. Oddly enough, his reply to Gtora was oddly familiar. Quick search gave me this. Originally, from "Ain't she a peach thread"
GEEZUS Funked On word dude Jenny Craig
Oh, and so I'm not completely off-topic. Everytime I've went deer hunting, it was a 7mm mag.
What are you babbling about?
Surely you can find a thread about gays or something closer to your level of expitise.
There seems to be some form of mass dillussional people here.
If you are not under the care of a Dr please make an appointment.
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Regardless of what my "Expertise" is, I find it odd that you use the same insult to both Gtora and funkedup and make the same error on both insults. That error being that it is in fact two words and not one.
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I thought you were done with the argument, Farty?
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Originally posted by texace
I thought you were done with the argument, Farty?
He is, just as soon as he gets the last word :lol
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I guess you are so poorly educated that you're unable to read the articles YOU posted and read them for content.
NONE of the articles you posted say "there is nothing wrong with using a 223 on white tail if you can make good shot placement".
ALL of the articles say that the .223 REM is very limited as a whitetail and must be used within it's limitations.
They ALL mention the same limitations: short range, small deer, careful shot selection AND shot placement.
Despite your continual forlorn attempt to make the .223 into something it isn't, the articles YOU post show it for what it is; a very limited whitetail cartridge.
But hey.. you shoot tiny little Texas deer, you shoot them at extreme short range, you don't take moving shots and you can hit your target at 100 yards. So, you're within the limitations.
The funny part is that you think doing so is a "challenge".