Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Kweassa on February 21, 2006, 07:40:11 PM
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MO this needs to be fixed.
To confess frankly, GVs are way too easy to spot by using the "sonar". I fly above an area where GVs might approach, turn off the engine, get a GV sound 'reading', and home in to that direction. Turn the engine back on, make up for lost speed, and then turn the engine off again... and follow the "sund" - hurrah for stereo sound.
Some of you might say, "well then, turn the external GV volume down" - but please guys, this is not an individual issue. Stuff like this must be fixed globally. GVs are easy to spot as it is, and the 'sonar' method of tracking them down just makes it that much easier to pick them up while they are advancing to the town or field.
AH is already has plenty of gameplay concessions. Also, I see no logical reason as to why let people able to just flick engine on/off instantly. If anything, stopping people from doing that at least has a good effect, in that it deprives people of tracking ground vehicles by sound. Nothing to lose, something to gain. Sounds like a good bargain.
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also enemy vehicle icons should not be visible to airplanes, spotting GVs is way too easy.
speaking as a GVer and a flyer.
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Uhh... no.
Spotting things in real life with one's own pair of eyes is FAR FAR FAR easier than you think. Seeing a huge behemoth of a battle tank from mere hundreds of feet? It's like looking at the neighbor's car 7 houses down the block. Hell you can see the license plate, if you squint!
In this game you can't see squat. It cannot and will never mimick the human eye system. To counter this we have the icons. They don't really remedy the situation, but they help.
Asking for no icons for GVs is just the GVs being to scared of enemy planes. Historically GVs were sitting ducks without air cover, so if you're worried, get some friendly air cover!!
As for the sound -- hell I don't know... I think in general engines should have spool up/down times, instead of this "instant full power" thing we have now, but I think that most planes could turn their engines on by themselves, and did. Unless you historically see which planes could and could not restart, then apply it only to them, I don't see why we should just impose it on all aircraft.
As for tanks, well hell the rumble of the engine would be so loud it would vibrate the ground around the tank. I would like less master volume (by default) for the tanks, but I want to be able to hear the GVs when I idle my engine, without having to turn it off.
Speaking of hearing engines, I can barely hear other plane engines as it is, especially not when next to 24 engines roaring at full throttle from B-24s. These engines should be audible from 30,000 feet to the ground, but I can't hear them until I'm inside 200 yards.
Sorry for deviating from the main topic but it's all related (sounds and/or GV spotting).
We need icons. We need sounds. We could/should tweak the way engines restart, but perhaps it's not a bad thing to hear these 100-ton vehicles. Historically you could hear them for miles, I bet. We don't have people on the ground, troops, front lines, hell anything except player-piloted vehicles/planes, so perhaps this is a concession to let us find them without the thousands of folks on the ground that would normally see them first.
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Tanks may be loud, but I seriously doubt you'd hear them in a fighter at 1,000 feet, with the canopy closed, and the motor running. I also seriously doubt that you'd kill the engine while on a recon flight to listen for the crack of rifles or the rumble of vehicles. While we do a lot of things in AH you wouldn't dream of doing in RL in combat, some of the things are arguably "gamier" than others.
To play DA on this, I can also see some, eh, somewhat logical, I guess, reasons for being able to do so. We don't have visible disturbance of trees and shrubs to giveaway position, GVs don't leave tracks in the grass/sand/dirt, you can't see a pall of dust and smoke from an advancing group of tanks, no spotters, etc. We have sound, flashing icons on a map, identifying icons on planes and vehicles, and known points where they will appear.
I agree that it seems kind of gamey, but my guess is that it either would require some substantial changes to how sound is handled, or is intentionally left in place as a compromise or concession, allowing us to figure out (through a simple action that isn't entirely without risk) things that we'd learn of through radio chatter, spying, intelligence, spotters, visual cues, etc.
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I'd like to see cons for enemy ground vehicles when IN another ground vehicle.
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how you gonna know wich vehicle is friendly or hostile if you turn icons off
as for engines we have to do small reserch, som planes was able to re run engine in flight, som not
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I would be curious to find 1 plane that dosn't instant restart when in flight.
And have done it personaly to my plane a number of times. BTW not on purpose.
HiTech
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Shock Cooling?
EDIT
N/M found answer:
Shock Cooling: Myth or Reality? (http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182883-1.html)
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Originally posted by hitech
I would be curious to find 1 plane that dosn't instant restart when in flight.
And have done it personaly to my plane a number of times. BTW not on purpose.
HiTech
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Hey this tactic is historical, I saw Henry Fonda do it once.
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I've done it many times (shut down one engine, in a twin engined Seminole) - as long as the prop is spinning it will restart immediatly once fuel and spark are applied. If you stop the prop (by feathering it, which most single engined aircraft can't do) then you have to use the starter (and some planes didn't have an internal starter, or didn't have an internal battery to power the starter) to get the engine/prop turning, and it can be kinda tough to get it going again.
You can do the same thing with a motorcycle (or a manual transmission car too I suppose) - hit the kill switch and leave it in gear. As long as the bike is still moving, the engine is still turning, and the moment you flip the kill switch back into the on position it will start right up.
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These are modern engines and aircraft tho, aren't they? Turboprops instead of piston engines?
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I can't speak for Hitech's plane as I don't know what it is, but the stuff I fly all use carbed, air cooled piston engines with magnetos.
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Originally posted by Krusty
it's not a bad thing to hear these 100-ton vehicles. Historically you could hear them for miles, I bet.
I believe the King Tiger was 64 tons. Tiger was 55 tons i think.
FYI
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In relation to LW aircraft:
Posted on another forum by Yogi:
In the book on Waldmann(JG52, 3, 7) & others, there is a passage about using a tactic similar to Stuka-bombing in a fighter. They trained this in France during early 1944. In this passage it is stated, that it was not allowed to fly at 0% throttle (to get a slower dive), because this would damage the engine because of internal cooling of cylinders.
HoHun replied:
Shock-cooling was a danger for all engines, with air-cooled engines being more susceptible than liquid-cooled ones since the cooling was more direct. (The same is true for overheating at low airspeeds.)
For some engines, a powerless dive was not permissable at all because the reversed force situation with the engine braking the propeller would interrupt the lubrication. John Deakin of Avsig (now Avweb) explained this in detail, but it's rather complicated, and not all radials are affected. I don't know if inlines are affected, too.
Then there's spark plug fouling at low rpms, though I believe it would require longer periods than that for one bomb run to become a factor.
On this page: Shock Cooling (http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenance-Tips/Shock-Cooling.htm)
It mentions that uneven cooling while on the ground with the cowl off can causes issues:
2. Ground Maintenance Uneven Cooling
Although running the engines on the ground with the engine cowling off for maintenance is more likely associated with poor cooling air distribution and heating, unfortunately it is also an unfavorable conditions for shock cooling. Rapid and uneven power testing causes uneven cooling. During a ground run, the cooling air is not being evenly deflected and directed around all the cylinders.
If you must make a brief ground run, consider a limit of two minutes at 1200 rpm, 400° F CHT, and 200° F oil temperature to be the maximum allowable. Power test runs should not be considered.
And then there's this page:
Shock cooling (http://www.liquidcooledairpower.com/lc-shockcooling.shtml)
Shock cooling is unique to air-cooled engines in aircraft. Aircraft are one of the few moving vehicles that can keep up a high rate of speed with little or no power for a long duration. During a rapid descent our air-cooled engines may cool down anywhere from 100 to 250F in a matter of a few minutes. The problem is that this rapid cool down is usually uneven and leads to warpage of the cylinder heads and even the cylinder barrels. But shock cooling isn't the only enemy - there is also shock heating to consider. Once the engine has cooled down a rapid increase in power will also heat the cylinder heads up unevenly further aggravating the huge temperature differentials that tend to exist in air-cooled heads. As the power is increased the exhaust side of the head rapidly heats up while the intake side remains relatively cool. This uneven heating introduces the kinds of stresses that lead to cylinder head cracking and loss of valve seats.
I am not sure what all this means in relation to the game, you experts can argue about that...
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Have done it twice while in inverted flight, Hate it when I forget to switch to the right hand tank before sustained inverted flight. It's the only one with a flop tube for fuel pick up.
And the engine is a Lyc IO-360, I.E. Just a gas powered plane.
HiTech
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So, is this one of those things that would tend to cause long term issues, and not necessarily sudden cataclysmic failure? (long term being moot point in a plane with a 1 hour life cycle)
It is my personal opinion that HT should start buzzing farm tractors and construction equipment, and let us know whether or not he can hear them running.
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I haven't heard of any shock cooling episodes that have resulted in instant or even extremely short term engine failure.
Usually, you just cut hours off the overhaul time when you do it.
I supposed there is the extreme case though, somewhere.
And yeah, you can do it. But I bet it was damn few RL Combat pilots that tried that trick in combat and lived to tell about it. Here it is commonplace, however.
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Originally posted by hitech
I would be curious to find 1 plane that dosn't instant restart when in flight.
HiTech
even bf163 can be restart in flight according to flight manual
you are right there is no plane that does not restart his engine in flight
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Originally posted by bagrat
also enemy vehicle icons should not be visible to airplanes, spotting GVs is way too easy.
speaking as a GVer and a flyer.
Totally agree with this............. icons are not needed on enemy stuff on the ground.......but in particular enemy gv's and troops.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
....snip.....
It is my personal opinion that HT should start buzzing farm tractors and construction equipment, and let us know whether or not he can hear them running.
However, this sound testiing should not start until AFTER TOD is completed! (Otherwise, might miss the 2 week target date)
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Originally posted by ramzey
even bf163 can be restart in flight according to flight manual
you are right there is no plane that does not restart his engine in flight
stuka's had to get their ground crews to start up the engine with a crank though. if the engine stopped, you wouldnt be able to start it up again
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Originally posted by Pooface
stuka's had to get their ground crews to start up the engine with a crank though. if the engine stopped, you wouldnt be able to start it up again
So a 170 mph headwind is not enough to to spin the prop ? Which is some how attached to the engine to turn it over.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
So a 170 mph headwind is not enough to to spin the prop ? Which is some how attached to the engine to turn it over.
Bronk
LOL NO!!!!!
J/K otherwise my '75 MG would be more of a pain than it is already ;)
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I had a 70 chevy that was the same way.
Bronk
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Unless I am totally wrong (which is normal) just about the only thing that a ground cart or ground crew provides to an engine is power right? Which as Bronk pointed out the movement thought the air will provide, not sure where the hang up is?
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Originally posted by hitech
I would be curious to find 1 plane that dosn't instant restart when in flight.
And have done it personaly to my plane a number of times. BTW not on purpose.
HiTech
But did WW2 (and even current combat pilots) do this in order to improve their turns and to burn off E fast while in the middle of combat?
ack-ack
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The question of did they is totaly irelivent to the topice, the question is could they have cut there mixture.
HiTech
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So the answer is "Heck NO! they didn't kill their engine in combat, but if they were FORKING CRAZY they could have if they had TOTALLY LOST THEIR MIND."
:)
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It is a problem for sneaking up on other aircraft too. People turn their engine noise down so low, they hear you coming up. That would never happen in a real airplane. So if you want to sneak up you have to turn your engine off. The external and internal engine noise should be linked.