Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: whels1 on December 18, 2000, 11:47:00 AM
-
pretty cool show last night.
NO RAM u cant have a TA 182 with A2A
guided rockets.
-
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) A fun show. The usual over-dramatic, over-hype and LW over-adoration with the "what if's..."
I think RAM really deserves an HE-162 that took an experienced pilot. And this plane ia a MUST for adding modelling manufacturing boners to AH with it's wooden wings and no-hold glue. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
-
Westy, by any chance are you thinking of the Ta-154 'Moskito' ?
-
No, he means the german jet plane made for the Nazi youth. It was supposed to be better than the Me-262, but cheaper and easier to manufacture. It only had wooden wings tho, and they were glued to the fuselage. One hispano ping, it down goes the jet.
It also had 1 30mm cannon, dunno about how much ammunition.
-
The Ta 183 had 4x 20mm I think. (I'm at work no books here).
Ta 183s actually flew after the war, since Kurt Tank defected to Argentina after the war. He built and flew some Ta 183s there, they were very good aircraft and had better performance than the 262 iirc. I can post the numbers when I get home.
-
Hi
He162 mounted 2 MK108 30mm cannon with 100rpg
or it could be fitted with 2 MG151/20 with 120rpg. The wing snapping problem was only on the prototypes, and the very few production types did not have this problem. He162 shot down 1 Tempest in the last few weeks of the war. It was also fitted with an ejection seat. It had very good control harmony and an extremly high rate of roll even over 400mph. Its major shortcoming was range/endurance.
Ta183 is something else entirely, and is a plane whose potential performance if actually built would not have been betterd until F86/Mig15. And yes the Mig15 was based on the Ta183, yes I said based. Mig15 was based on Ta183. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) As for its armament the earliest ones were to be fitted with 4 MK108 cannon, but there was provision for mounting the new series of revolver cannon the MG213 20/30mm, these weapons had rates of fire in excess of 1000rpm and had higher muzzle velocity compared to MG151/20 and much better than MK108. MG213 was ready for full production in summer 45. The post war British 30mm ADEN cannon was directly based on this entirely new German type of cannon, as were the French DEFA and US Pontiac M39 20mm cannon, which IIRC was the 20mm cannon fitted to late F86, F100, and USN F8 Crusaders.
Rhurstal/Kramer X-4 wire-guided AAM had a range of several kilometers, generally between 2 and 3.5km . It carried a 44lb warhead, which could be set off by the pilot, a contact fuze or aucustic fuze. This weapon was in production at the end of the war, but certainly not in regular combat use. However, several Fw190 were fitted with the missles and associated control equipment in fall and winter 44/45 to combat test vs US bomber formations, I can find no information on how they did in those tests.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
No Jekyll. That one also suffered from the glue/wood problem. The HE-162 People Fighter had a metal fuselage, but the it had wooden wings and tail that were glued togtehr AND glued onto the fuselage. It had a prospensity to fall apart in the air too.
-Westy
-
Anyone interested in buying or trading for a me262 stick or a gunsight from a me262? or how about some kraut fighter pilots medals also got some flight books from the pilot and a map case with map of southern france from the same wreck I think.
-
FWIW...
This is the Ta-183.
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/p4.jpg)
Some think the Rooskies may have tried to build it...
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/p3.jpg)
In the 50's, Tank helped the Argentineans build this, the Pulqui II...
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/p2.jpg)
It didn't fly for sour apples.
Andy
-
putz how much for me262 stick?
interested in flight books if original.
post your asking price (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
hazed
-
Andy,
The Pulqui II was based on Ta183 design but had changes done to it by Kurt Tank that completly messed up the flying qualities of the plane. You see Kurt Tank didnt design the Ta183, it was designed by one of his assistants, a fellow that went on to great sucess in the post-war US aerospace industry, working for North American/Rockwell I think. Anyway back to why the PulquiII sucked. You will notice it has a shoulder mounted wing, where the Ta183 is a mid-wing design. Im not aerodynamics expert but the source I read stated that the new wing position created aerodynamic disturbances to the T tail causing a nasty and rare type of stall where the plane simply drops straight down with very little chance of recovery. Tanks inexperience with the Ta183 led him to make this extreme redesign error. The picture you posted of the Russian Ta183 seems pretty authentic as a midway design between Ta183 and Mig15. notice the 2 wing fences, just like Mig15.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
AHH!! so the truth comes out... the FW did inspire every jet aircraft ever made as well!!
AKskurj
-
Hi
Yes, Mig15 and Pulqui II are direct descendants of Ta183.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
German engineering + British technology = MiG-15.
MiG did come up with the wing fences but the engine was a direct copy of a British design. Not like the first time they did it before though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
I'm really getting tired of this crap - Russkies stole this-Russkies stole that. Unless I'm missing something here Kurt Tank did piss off to Argentina after the war, right? Unless I'm very much mistaken (and I know I am not) Argentina was not a part of Soviet Union. How the f**k MIG15 eneded up "being inspired" by some KT design or other???
You see Kurt Tank didnt design the Ta183, it was designed by one of his assistants, a fellow that went on to great sucess in the post-war US aerospace industry, working for North American/Rockwell I think.
Just to remind you - North American built F86. MIG15 was not built by North American (or Rockwell for that matter...)
I think HTC should plaster LW planes with warnings like "Flying FW190 may impair your ability to reason". *sigh*
-
HI
Lynx the Russians were crazy about the Ta183 design and they specifically sought out anyone at FW who worked on it (so they could kidnap them and force them to work in soviet concentration camps to help build/design new weapons so they could kill people in towns o, like lets say Oxfordshire UK), and their earlier native russian jet designs looked nothing like the Mig15 and its direct competitor, both of which were near dead ringers for ta183. Second If you just get your head out of your ass, youll notice that the Russians arent as arrogant as you seem to be when it comes to adopting and yes outright stealing foreign designs. Lets see some foreign aircraft and technogoies designs that the USSR made nearly exact copies of: DC3/C47, B29, Rolls-Royce Nene jet engine, the whole BT and T34-T55 tank series used a suspension system that eas developed by J.Walter Christie in the USA, They copied V2s - the scud is little more than a modified V2 with integrated fuel tanks and detachable warhead, as the scuds designer freely admited.
As for F86, it was already drawn up in 1945 so it obviously has no direct origin from the Ta183. However the original North American F86 design was a conventional straight wing aircraft, very similar in appearence and performance to the P/F-80. After the war the design was modified to accept a swept wing directy developed from the new German swept wing data coming in at that time. Again this is a widely known fact, which the F86 designers freely admit. The Ta183 designer did not start working for NA/Rockwell till the early fifties, so that should ease you emotional problems regarding F86. These are historical facts that you can easily look up lynx, just calm the hell down and be less arrogant.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
whoa I must apologize for the arrogance of my post. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
I'm sure that everyone realizes that every time an aircraft is or was shot down, Experts poured over the remains for whatever technology they could "borrow".
If you stop to think about it....everyone was working together,unwillingly mind you, to get technology to where it is today.
Aircraft designers were probably the worst for this, American, German or Russian all used captured or borrowed designs.
-
Combine the Me-109 and the Spit and what do you get? Thats right, a MiG-1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
- Jig
-
Well they were the master race that had an Empire that would last for a thousand years er...ok maybe it was a short thirteen but hey who is counting. Slave labour was it just a European tradition?
-
http://users.visi.net/~djohnson/luft46.html (http://users.visi.net/~djohnson/luft46.html)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Originally posted by -lynx-:
I'm really getting tired of this crap - Russkies stole this-Russkies stole that. Unless I'm missing something here Kurt Tank did piss off to Argentina after the war, right? Unless I'm very much mistaken (and I know I am not) Argentina was not a part of Soviet Union. How the f**k MIG15 eneded up "being inspired" by some KT design or other???
Kurt Tank fled to Argentina, but the FW works were captured by the Soviets. They took the prototype TA183 back to the USSR. The MIG 15 is definitely based upon the TA183. The early Russian jets were abortions of prop planes with jet engines stuffed into them.
------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 12-19-2000).]
-
Lets see some foreign aircraft and technogoies designs that the USSR made nearly exact copies of: DC3/C47, B29, Rolls-Royce Nene jet engine, the whole BT and T34-T55 tank series used a suspension system that eas developed by J.Walter Christie in the USA, They copied V2s - the scud is little more than a modified V2 with integrated fuel tanks and detachable warhead, as the scuds designer freely admited.
What a load of crap...
DC3/C47 was licenced - modified to take Russian built engines by the design bureau Lisunov, Russian designation Li-2, 2800+ built;
B29 was copied albeit with no licence - Allied US refused to supply this advanced bomber obviously having in mind "after the war" situation. Few B29s landed in Russian Far East after raids on Japan. SU was not at war with Japan at the time - they were "interned" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Hence the birth of T-4 Bull. Loads built and supplied mainly to China (400+);
Rolls-Royce engines? Hmmm... Pass... I guess RR simply sold it to the Soviet Union? We were allied after all...
Christie suspension? Hmmm.. Let me think - German guy Diesel patented the engine (although his engine was supposed to work on coal powder and water mix, not heavy fuel), some unknown Chineese monk invented gunpowder, some Scandinavian bloke did some work on explosives... Hey - that T34 was just plain stolen from all those people. No wonder it's was arguably the best tank of the war - the whole world worked hard designing it...
The whole world is also shamelessly using the internal combustion engine patented by Daimler and Benz, all rearwheel drive vehicles use Cardan(sp?) trasmission etc...
Oh, btw you do know that the master race pinched T-V "Panther" "idea" from those stupid, totally unable to do anything by themselves Russkies, don't you? They still couldn't reproduce a miracle of Russian engine design, 500 hp diesel V2. Funny that - only Russian tanks sported those powerful, less prone to fire diesels, who did the bastards pinched those from?
And some German chap named von Braun or such like was in charge of the US space program... Didn't he... Err... Designed V2?
And no, Scud missiles (SS1 Western or NR11 Soviet designation) did not have detachable warheads. That was Mr von Braun's design "feature".
Calm down my a** (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Learn history not from the History Channel and stop trying to find German ideas as the only source for progress (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
thanks, PbICb
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 12-19-2000).]
-
And wasn't it a british engine the germans used to create their first Jet engine?
AKskurj
-
Originally posted by -lynx-:
What a load of crap...
Christie suspension? Hmmm.. Let me think - German guy Diesel patented the engine (although his engine was supposed to work on coal powder and water mix, not heavy fuel), some unknown Chineese monk invented gunpowder, some Scandinavian bloke did some work on explosives... Hey - that T34 was just plain stolen from all those people. No wonder it's was arguably the best tank of the war - the whole world worked hard designing it...
Um, the Christie torsion bar suspension was first used on his T series (I forget the number) that had detachable treads for high speeds on roads, up to 80mph. The US wasn't interested in tank designs after WWI, so he had a production contract with the Soviets for a small run of his design.
The Soviets continued making copies of his design under the Bt-5 and Bt-7 designations after the contract expired. The system was then used on practically every tank the Soviets produced up into the later part of the century. Even the mega-heavy KV's used the suspension system, using smaller and more numerous road wheels and guiders for rough terrain and the extra weight.
-
PPSh 41 is a cheap copy of Finnish Suomi M/31 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
The point is lynx they arent as arrogant as you seem to be about using other countries technologies to advance their capabaliites. Unfortunately you are still full of toejam! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
That's a nice way to put your point across - you have no facts just somethings you "heard" from here and there and you resort to personal attacks - I'm sorry to have to point this out to you but you Sir do not appear to be a very smart person (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
Jig - I miss the point you're trying to make - they never called it anything else, it was Christie suspension all along. BT5s and 7s AFAIK had a provision for driving without tracks, it was dropped on later heavier tanks. But the suspension design obviously worked well enough to be used? Credit was given to the designer - what else did you expect?
-
im sorry you feel that way but it doesnt change the facts lynx, tho i appologize if you were personally offended by my saying ur full of toejam, maybe i went too far with that
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 12-22-2000).]
-
as far as i remember the RR jet engine was given to russia sometime near the end of WW2 for evaluation etc.
whilst personaly i found the few germans i have met a little arrogant about their mechanical genius (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) , can you really blame them? Lynx give credit where it is due mate.
Im from the UK and i do not in any way support Hitler/Nazi's etc but i am well adjusted enough to realise not all germans during the war were in support either.I dont understand why you have become seemingly angered that germany receives credit for it inventions etc.They did design many weapons of war that have become used world wide.
What is your point? You dont like discussions or what?
hazed
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 12-22-2000).]
-
Originally posted by -lynx-:
Jig - I miss the point you're trying to make - they never called it anything else, it was Christie suspension all along. BT5s and 7s AFAIK had a provision for driving without tracks, it was dropped on later heavier tanks. But the suspension design obviously worked well enough to be used? Credit was given to the designer - what else did you expect?
Continued production after the license expired. That generally conveys stealing when the creater does not sell the design, or continue licensing. Bt-5s were an exact copy exluding the gun mount.
-
twas a great show.
------------------
XNachoX
(http://heathblair.tripod.com/nhcouger.gif)
NIGHTHAWKS "WE BAD"
-------------------
[This message has been edited by XNachoX (edited 12-24-2000).]